Classic & Vintage - Need advice from my C&V Colleagues re wheel building and dynamo hubs.

I have not yet taken the plunge into dynamo lighting systems, but have a desire to give them a try.

I have seen several prebuilt wheels with Shimano LX and Sanyo dynamos. How good are these hubs?

I haven't yet taken up wheel building, but may do so for this project. What tools do I need besides a truing stand? And, just how difficult is wheel building?

Thanks as always,

You'll receive all sorts of answers to this question.

Nearly all modern dynamo hubs have the same output. The Sanyo is perfectly good enough for commuting and general use, but I'd go with something more expensive for a high zoot build. Personally, I use a Shimano 3N-80 and a VO switchable. I'll try a SON someday. I've built front wheels with the Sanyo H27 for both my mother and father.

You need a decent spoke wrench (I use Park). A tension gauge is helpful, but the more wheels you build, the less you need one. I don't build wheels without a dishing tool. I recommend The Bicycle Wheel (http://www.icelord.net/bike/thebicyclewheel.htm). Read it and have it handy as you lace the wheel. Take your time and you will be rewarded.

I've never had any dynamo hub go bad with the exception of a Shimano that I broke when I tried to service the bearings. I'm sure it would be fine if I hadn't mucked with it. I had been using it for maybe 8 years and well over 10,000 miles (9000 in its last three years).

I've also never even heard of any dynamo hub going bad, with the exception of one or two Velo Orange ones. They weren't mine, though, so it's not my story to tell.

What's the bike? If it's an old enough bike that an old steel Sturmey Archer dynohub would be appropriate, I'd say go with one of those. They are cool and funky and efficient and virtually indestructible. Otherwise I'd say go with something cheap. What the heck.
I'm sure some hubs are more efficient than others, and some have better bearings than others, but I just can't bring myself to pay extra for perks like that.

I've also never even heard of any dynamo hub going bad, with the exception of one or two Velo Orange ones. They weren't mine, though, so it's not my story to tell.

To be clear, I suspect you're referring to the Novatech hubs sold by lots of retailers, including Velo Orange.

I don't see the point of using an old Sturmey Archer dynamo when a Sanyo H27 is $40, but that's just me.

I don't see the point of using an old Sturmey Archer dynamo when a Sanyo H27 is $40, but that's just me.
An old SA 3 speed dynohub is pretty cool

An old SA 3 speed dynohub is pretty cool

Very cool, but the OP is asking about front hubs I'm sure.

I second the good Colnel's suggestion to build your wheels yourself; it's lots of fun if you're not in a hurry and like learning new skills. Follow good directions and don't rush. :)

To be clear, I suspect you're referring to the Novatech hubs sold by lots of retailers, including Velo Orange. Ahh. Okay, thanks for the clarification!


I don't see the point of using an old Sturmey Archer dynamo when a Sanyo H27 is $40, but that's just me.

Well, first of all, I said "if ..." If what follows "if..." matters to you, then there's the point. None of my old Sturmey Archers cost $40, but I don't buy them because they're cheap, I buy the because they're cool, useful, and they suit the bikes I ride. I would not put a Sanyo on one of my English bikes from the 50's because it would look out of place there. For the same reason I wouldn't put a 50 year old dynohub on my commuter bike.

Second, you seem to assume the Sanyo is better than a 50 year old Sturmey Archer dynohub. And maybe it is. I don't know about that.

Second, you seem to assume the Sanyo is better than a 50 year old Sturmey Archer dynohub. And maybe it is. I don't know about that.

I don't know either. But, yeah, I'd assume it's a better choice for a build that's not a 50s English bike if, for no other reason, that it's output is (modern) standard and more reliable. That last point is doubtless debatable too, but I've not read of modern dynamo failure or that they stop generating power (aside from the Novatech already discussed), but I can't say that for SA dynamos.

the SA put out about half the amps that a Sanyo will. Not sure about the efficiency, but I can't see how the SA is better.

What would you folks recommend as a headlight for me? I have a Sanyo generator hub that a lovely fellow sent me as a gift. I don't care about period correctness. I want the most light. I'd like to spend $120 or less for the headlight. I want to blind the car drivers and light up the road. OK, I don't really want to blind anyone, but I want to cast a lot of light.

Thanks.

the SA put out about half the amps that a Sanyo will. Not sure about the efficiency, but I can't see how the SA is better.

Yes, the old SA is said to be 1.8W, the modern ones are either 2.4W or 3.0W and the former are becoming rarer.

I have heard of people using the SON20 hub because, being made for a smaller wheel, it produces less power than a SON28. Since LED's are more efficient the 3.0W is considered excessive. I don't know anything about it. But perhaps this reasoning gives the older (weaker) SA's an advantage?

What would you folks recommend as a headlight for me? I have a Sanyo generator hub that a lovely fellow sent me as a gift. I don't care about period correctness. I want the most light. I'd like to spend $120 or less for the headlight. I want to blind the car drivers and light up the road. OK, I don't really want to blind anyone, but I want to cast a lot of light.

Thanks.

My issue exactly. I am presently using a Magicshine battery light that will burn your face off. It is as bright as a small motorcycle light and drivers do pay attention. It's great riding at night with that leve of "seeing" and "being seen" light.

Does more power than the LEDs need hurt them? I really don't know, but as I understand it they're pretty robust little buggers.

I use a Lumotech IQ Cyo R (http://www.xxcycle.com/php/boutique/page.php?nom=PRODUITpp&key=13333&FROM=froogle) and installed one on my dad's bike as well. I'd say that's the best bang for the buck. There are two versions, one designated by the "R" and has two beams. I also have a pair of Schmidt E6 halogen lights. I like them a lot, but wouldn't recommend them as they have no stand light feature.

Anything from Supernova or B&M will be a quality light too, but more expensive.

because of the efficiency of LED lights, they no longer designate the SON20 as a hub for smaller wheels. I've been too lazy to get my SA hub on the road (yes, this is a theme w/my bikes tyvm), but I expect it will work fine with an LED light.


http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/b&m-hl.asp
Lumotec Cyo seems to be the sweet spot for bright yet not too expensive lights. I have a Supernova E3 Asymmetric, and I still get flashed by idiots who think it's too bright.

I think lights like the magicshine actually do put considerably more light into an oncoming driver's eyes than a car headlight, rivaling a car high beam.

You can't overpower a modern power LED with a dynohub. The dynohubs put out .5A, the LEDs can take over 1A. My only reservation is turning the LED on while at speed, collapsing the hub's field through the LED could conceivably burn it out.

I have not built my own wheels, so I am no help there. I have 2 wheels w/SON hubs. One 32 spoke on CR-18 & the other 36 spoke in a Salsa Delgado. Both function great and are barely noticeable when on. I run e3 headlights & wired tailights. I would look on ebay for a used wheel. They come up fairly often and cost about half what a new wheel would (using the SON hub)

Second, you seem to assume the Sanyo is better than a 50 year old Sturmey Archer dynohub. And maybe it is. I don't know about that.

I also think the GH6 is just about the coolest thing ever made in the entire history of humankind. :)

I just happen to have recently done a direct comparison of the two. Here I've plotted the current going through 2 series LEDs (one 3V white LED and one 2V red LED) at different speeds. You can infer power output by multiplying by 5V, although this is approximate as the voltage goes up a few tenths of a volt as the current increases. Unfortunately, I didn't record anything below 12 kph or so, but the LEDs do light at lower speeds for both hubs.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-_X3bib9XnXU/TwIc-Gn9Y-I/AAAAAAAADBM/Fy78JpZArME/s640/sanyo_vs_dynohub.jpg


I really like the Sanyo H27. I put one on my wife's mixte. It's a nice looking hub for the money.

Dishing tools... :roflmao2:

Whenever I read that.. it just breaks me up. Just complete nonsense. Wheels.. all of them run CENTERED in the space.. getting that correct with your stand is your "dish" once completed.

And.. a tension meter such as the inexpensive Park Tool model.. is probably one of the best buys for a 'new to wheel building' person.. if.. a long lasting durable wheel is the goal. Very few newbies will get tensions right by feel.. sound does work yes... but is a PITA doing a wheel...having to continually reference an accurate pitch for more precise work.

Dishing tools... :roflmao2:

Whenever I read that.. it just breaks me up. Just complete nonsense. Wheels.. all of them run CENTERED in the space.. getting that correct with your stand is your "dish" once completed.

I have a Park TS-2.2, and it simply doesn't help with dish at all. I don't remember if my memories from back in the day are shot, but I don't remember the TS-2 stands that I have used being that bad. I used to be a "flip the wheel and check the dish" sort of person, but that doesn't work at all with my stand.

I have a Park TS-2.2, and it simply doesn't help with dish at all. I don't remember if my memories from back in the day are shot, but I don't remember the TS-2 stands that I have used being that bad. I used to be a "flip the wheel and check the dish" sort of person, but that doesn't work at all with my stand.

Then how in the heck do you ever get the rim dead center of the space.................

Dishing tools... :roflmao2:

Just complete nonsense. Wheels.. all of them run CENTERED snip

My Hozan doesn't accurately measure dish. Why do all the good wheelbuilders I know use a dishing tool?

Oh here's the Shimano wheel factory where they build Dura Ace race wheels. 4 dishing tools!
http://cdn3.media.cyclingnews.futurecdn.net/photos/2008/tech/features/shimano_wheel_factory08/Shimano_wheel_factory_trip_Dura-Ace_room_600.jpg

Justin, there are so many sub-models of that light, all at around the same price. Please help. I've tried to read through this a few times and can't make total sense of it.

http://www.xxcycle.com/lumotec-iq-cyo-sensoplus-automatique-feu-position-175qcsndi,,en.php

http://www.xxcycle.com/lumotec-iq-cyo-r-175qrcsndi,,en.php

http://www.xxcycle.com/phare-del-b-and-m-lumotec-iq-cyo-t-senso-plus-avlumdjour-60-l,,en.php

Dishing tools... :roflmao2:

Whenever I read that.. it just breaks me up. Just complete nonsense. Wheels.. all of them run CENTERED in the space.. getting that correct with your stand is your "dish" once completed.

Your response is asinine. Dishing tools/alignment gauges are not nonsense. If you want to rely on only your truing stand that's your prerogative. I use a Park WAG-2 and I know my rims are perfectly centered between the dropouts.


Justin, there are so many sub-models of that light, all at around the same price. Please help. I've tried to read through this a few times and can't make total sense of it.

This is the one I would recommend. http://www.xxcycle.com/lumotec-iq-cyo-r-175qrcsndi,,en.php

Then how in the heck do you ever get the rim dead center of the space.................

a good wheelbuilder can keep track of things like how far over the rim needs to move to be centered. You can take the wheel out of my stand and put it back in 10 times and you'll get 10 different positions. I am not sure what is off with it, but it's off. A dishing tool lets you measure and make sure you've got it right. Granted, it's an iterative process for most of us

Justin, sorry to be a pest, but why that one? Which features does it have that are worth having, and which features does it lack that are better avoided? I want to make an informed decision.

On the subject of centering wheels, inaccurately called dishing, there are easy ways and there are hard ways. A dishing tool is one of the easiest, because it takes the guess work out. Some truing stands are completely asymmetrical, such as the Hozan. To mount the wheel, you have to turn both knobs on the axle, and it's pretty much guaranteed that you won't put the wheel in the same way as you did last time. But a Park truing stand, even if it's not centered, is pretty sure to hold the wheel the same way each time, because one knob closes the two arms together.

So if you use a Park stand or something like it, or a well made bike as a truing stand, and if the dropouts are nice and parallel, you can flip the wheel over and see how differently centered the wheel is. Keep flipping it and re-centering it with spoke tension until the rim is in the same place, whichever way you insert the wheel.

Another way is to make two stacks of books on the floor (which is flat and level) and measure the distance between locknut and floor. That's a home-made, free dishing tool, though it's not all that convenient.

I happen to own TWO dishing tools, which, again, are misnamed. They should be called centering gauges.

Justin, sorry to be a pest, but why that one? Which features does it have that are worth having, and which features does it lack that are better avoided? I want to make an informed decision.

I like the R version because it has two beams. One is closer to the bike than the other. However, it is overall less bright than the 60 lumen version. Peter White details the differences somewhere on his site. And, I personally prefer the silver color to the black.

Dishing tools... :roflmao2:

Whenever I read that.. it just breaks me up. Just complete nonsense. Wheels.. all of them run CENTERED in the space.. getting that correct with your stand is your "dish" once completed.

And.. a tension meter such as the inexpensive Park Tool model.. is probably one of the best buys for a 'new to wheel building' person.. if.. a long lasting durable wheel is the goal. Very few newbies will get tensions right by feel.. sound does work yes... but is a PITA doing a wheel...having to continually reference an accurate pitch for more precise work.

I have a Park TS-2 and, while I rely on it to produce an acceptable "dish", the fact is that it does need to be tweaked from time to time. To verify that the TS is accurate (or to recalibrate it) you use a dishing tool. Even if you trust your TS, the dishing tool is a good final check for QA.

-G

I just built up a dyno-hub wheel using a Shimano 3N-72. I couldn't be happier. My headlight is a B&M Lumotec IQ Cyo R coupled with a B&M Toplight Line plus in the back.

I've built wheels for years and so it was an easy decision for me. My advice is that if you are not afraid to tackle it, go ahead. Lacing up is not all that challenging if you do it systematically (but you can always start over if something is not quite right). Having a good reference book handy is essential. Truing is a bit of an art that improves with practice.

Good luck

-G

I learned to build wheels with the old model Park TS-2 back in the 80s. I also noticed the dishing was always off slightly each time the wheel returns to the stand. I discovered the alignment of the clamping arms had detectable play in them. One time the play could be to the left, then the right side. The design doesn't take into account to preload the threaded rod while one calibrates the arms to be centered to the caliper. You can try to center it, but it's a PITA. I concluded that a spring between the collars would suffice as enough preload, so I bought a screen door rebound spring. Once I installed it over the rod, it pressed the collars nicely and I was able to center it all in one try. Testing it afterwards with wheels showed it worked! I didn't need a dishing tool. The latest TS-2.2 has a preload spring now. Not sure what year Park changed the design.

If you have the old stand, I recommend you do this modification.

Bear in mind, a dishing tool is a measuring device for a higher scale of precision. Do you need one to build wheels, not really, if your truing stand has satisfactory precision to suit your build needs. But its precision will be less than the dishing tool. And a truing stand will require calibration in due time. A dishing tool will help verify whether you did it correctly.

[edit] looks like gmt13 beat me to it.

Addendum:
[noglider]
As for brightness of LEDs and their power requirements, the latest ones average at 1A constant current, and 3-5W for over 250 lm of output. Check to see if your dynamo provides 5W max output. I wouldn't wire LEDs directly to the dynamo in a linear fashion. There are driver circuit boards tailored for most emitters on the market. They are up to 90% efficient too! This would address the concern in an earlier post, plus keep the brightness pretty constant as speeds vary.
(providing the dynamo has sufficient output.)
This is all mostly for DIYers, if you're handy with a soldering iron. If you want plug/play immediacy and the design work done, expect to pay ~$100 for a high output LED headlight. These run on Li-Ion or polymer battery packs.

Not sure what your lighting needs are, but the latest LED headlights are measurably brighter than previous generations. Sufficient to see and definitely be seen. But if you must have more light, output per dollar, HID is the way to go. This will be insanely bright.
But can't imagine needing it unless you're mountain biking at night. :)