Folding Bikes - Not happy with my Dahon Vitesse - Which bike would fit?

Hi, happy new year!

I'd like to seek your advice on purchasing a new folding bike. I had a look on a lot of websites, about a great variety of folder, but still feel I need some help.

Background: I had a full suspension mountain bike for 10 years or so. Living in Paris, fitting it on my balcony was a pain, it took too much place - and it's the only place to park a bike around there! (Acetylene Blowtorch... that's what they use...). Not to mention parking it elsewhere.

So I used public bikes. They weight 49 pounds, have a 3 speed only hub, are badly maintained (angled direction, brakes either loose or stuck, diving seatposts...). And it's always full when you need to park the bike / empty when you need to take one. But that said, they truly do the trick. When you pick a good one, they really flow.

To solve these problems I bought a folder. I tried Brompton, Dahon and Birdy. I felt quite comfortable on the Dahon and bought a used one from a bike sightseeing company. A Vitesse D7 with Dutch Perfect tires (these are incredible!). It was cheap and I thought it would be a good start - I could always evolve, but will know what I like and what I don't like.

I don't need multimodal, just to store it at home and at work. It should be foldable so that I can leave it in the corner of a store I'd get in, locked, too. But it's not the main use. I need a commuter to eat road. A little occasional touring would be nice too.

I should also mention that I have a Nuvinvi N360 hub waiting for a host (bought it used, too). So the new bike should accept it (I might accept a chain tensioner).

Now, the rant.
The less important: Folding is a pain. The stem is between the wheels when folded on the Vitesse. Putting it in the good position so it doesn't interfere with folding takes too long. When done, cables will get caught. And then, it's the folding peddles that get caught in this mess. Oh and the derailer gets beaten, the brake levers too, the bell is no more... And I have to reattach the rear fender nearly every time I unfold. Luckily, Dahon makes others with the stem folding outside! I also hate having to reset the stem lengths, handlebar position plus seatpost height. On the less important side, these creaks drive me mad. Tightening+grease yeah... temporary. But I could do with them if it was the only flaw. Also, quick releases don't mean quick attach. It needs retightening each time... Stem lock is a joke in that you have to think to reopen it before positioning the stem, otherwise it won't lock. Would go faster with knobs ala brompton (for unfolding, not for folding, of course). The folded package is awkward to carry.

Now more annoying is the bike geometry. If I want enough clearance from saddle to handlebars, I have to raise the handlebars a lot and the seatpost a lot too - I have to rise them a bit too much to my liking, putting feet on the ground and starting gets then a bit sporty. I then have a very upright position, which is cool, but if I bend to counter the wind, the position reveals awkward. Lowering the handlebars causes a major problem I'll talk about, while letting me in a "pump" position. My pectorals and shoulders hurt for 2 days... Also, you can't "emergency brake" without loosing momentum and being launched in front of your bike. Best bet: slow it the most, hope you won't impact, pray that if you do you'll have slowed down enough. On the momentum thing too, yeah the small wheels allow tigher curves. But you can't use your momentum to lean left/right on your bike to handle moderate turns at fast speed. Well, you can, but really not enough.

The most important: I can do with the stem having some flex. It serves as a handy suspension, it's fine. But the play it has reaaally annoys me. I have to periodically retighten it but it can get some play while riding longer after a folding/unfolding at work... The front wheel then oscillates left/right... Frightening!

The major problem I think is due to lack of balance. If I put the handlebars a bit low for a more agressive position, there probably is no more enough weight on the rear wheel and it's not made for by inertia due to the small wheel. As such, the rear wheel just slides left/right on road irregularities. Having a more upright position mostly solves the problem, unless I stand or ride on old, shiny but irregular cobblestone (and we have quite a lot...). And no matter the position and keeping seated: if it rains, the rear train really gets his own will. No, the tire is not dead, it's ok. I just don't know how I'm supposed to handle left/right movement with my arse without interfering with direction.

Sum up all these will give you what happened two days ago: powerful rain and wind, leaning to try to cut through the wind, on wet cobblestone, with the direction getting some play. Bad visibility due to the rain, emergency braking (on flat road this time), the bike is slim and manoeuvrable that's cool: I couldn't brake fast enough but could get between two cars, so I didn't crashed!

Same rides, but on public bikes, or on my older bike = "I didn't even noticed there was anything special". On this Dahon = "I don't want to ride that death trap anymore". Yep the bike would be more suited to a less agressive rider... But slowing down is out of question. I want to keep up with the traffic. And I need to do whether it's asphalt or cobblestone. Dry, or wet.

What would be your advice? Do I need bigger wheels?
I have an eye on Dahon IOS and Glide for 24 inch, Airnimal Joey too but it's damn expensive. Montague too, though it seems big.

But maybe the answer lies somewhere else... What is youre take on this question?
Thanks a lot,
Nicolas

P.S: Congratulations if you kept on reading!

hmm, my vitesse does none of the "parts falling off" stuff.

some of the parts need to be maintained for them to stay tight.

The real issue seems to be 1. resetting when unfolding (stem,seatpost, etc)? 2. Lack of agressive position? 3. perceived issues with balance?
Sounds like another folding option would be BikeFriday. Tikit resolves 1,2 no problem and people seem to think 3 is non issue on those...:)
If you are stuck with Dahon idea, maybe you can put drop bar which changes whole dynamic of 2&3. 1 won't change much unless you get different Dahon.
I've done drop bar mod on my dahon. Other than it being pig slow (okay.... average about 1-3mph) compared to my road bike... it's a joy to ride :)
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/784925-Dahon-Speed-TR-drop-bar-mod?highlight=speed+tr+drop

Tern bicycles have the stem folding to the outside.

if anything, I find that dahon bikes puts more weight on the rear than necessary. like 40F:60R when 45F:55R is more ideal.
wet cobblestones are just really slippery. Maybe the tires are over inflated?

Whoa 5 posts while I replied... Will make a real reply.

Sounds like you might be happier with a mini velo type bike. The Dahon Smoothhound also folds.

http://www.thorusa.com/dahon/current/smoothhound.htm

Are you sure the bike and wheels are in good shape? The sliding thing sounds real strange, are you sure the hubs are tight and the wheels are properly atached to the bike?

There is things you can do with the brakes, ANY bike can have good brakes if you know what to do.

The stem. Is ist possible to fit another stem? Ask thor about this, maybe there is another stem you can fit to solve some of the problems.

If you want to buy a new bike I am thinking BF tikit for some reason but the small wheels is not going to make it more comfortable on the cobblestone (it has suspension I think). You could try a sprung saddle to help out with that.

I`d like to see a picture or several of how the bike looks today. Makes the whole thing a lot easyer. It sounds like you are a fairly tall rider?

Hi NeoY2k,

My Dahon is a Curve and not a Vitesse, but I have had several of the same issues (though by far not all the issues you mention!).

Problem: QR's on the handlebar stem, steering tube and seat post all become loose with use. Solution: Be sensitive to closing effort. If it becomes too light (easy) tighten nut slightly.

Problem: Folding takes too long because you have to line everything up with no visual clues, esp. the need to actually raise the steering tube when getting ready to fold. Solution, use a Sharpie (or thin point permanent marker of some kind) to indicate correct seat post height by drawing a line around the seatpost at the top of the clamp when in the correct position (height).

Along the same lines:

Draw a similar line on the handlebar stem, where it fits into the steering tube, to indicate the precise level to which it needs to be raised for a quick and efficient fold. I put a line and an arrow above the line, pointing down to the line, just to make it easier for me to spot quickly.

Finally, draw a line across the top of the stem and the top of the handlebar so that you can quickly line up the bar on the stem for your prefered riding position, i.e. hands on the grips location.

Problem: Loose connection on QR between the headset and the steering tube (which does make for scary steering!). Solution: use an 8mm open end wrench to slightly tighten the nut that pushes against the white nylon (cube shaped) bushing. Be careful not to tighten too much, or you won't be able to engage the steering tube onto the headset area at all.

Regarding riding position, when unfolding the bike I drop the stem as far down into the steering tube as it will go since this gives me the lowest frontal area and the best position for using my upper body to effect a stronger pedal stroke. Your mileage may vary on this bit (but it works for me)! I have the saddle height set the same as my normal road bikes.

Hope that helps, at least a little!

Rick / OCRR

hmmm ..lets say some of the problems should be easily solved from a good dealer who could adjust everything correctly ( hopefully )
putting a dab of grease on the cam portion of the quick releases makes them close much lighter with much more power...
Lets not forget this is a used rental bike, which has seen quite an abuse I am sure....

Whats your measuremnts..height inseam weight ... maybe here is a clue

the tires you like so much ... might be half the culprit while you slide around....

V brakes are V brakes.... when you dont get enough power.. try to switch to koolstop pads .. they seem to work wonders..... but really its holdnt be any problem anyhow....

I dont know about the position you are writing about ... handlebar too high .... ? or seat too low.... the lower the handlebar the less creaking or flex ... maybe an aberhallo stem with mor forward lean would solve some of the issues ........

But hard to say.... you maybe better off checking some bikes and go to an expeienced floding bike dealer ( some challenge I get told )

Thor

So in short you want a bike which (1) has better reach and fit (2) folds faster (3) folds tighter and more elegantly (4) has less stem play (5) has larger or cushier wheels which deal with cobbles better.

This bike does not exist.

You will have to give up some of these goals in order to achieve others. Here are the primary options I think you have:


Mounting Big Apples or a similar fat tire on your Vitesse, as well as an Aber Halo stem. Satisfies #5 and maybe #1.
Bike Friday Tikit. Satisfies #1, #2, but in standard configuration is a bit worse for #5 (about the same when using Greenspeed Scorchers).
Bike Friday Pocket or NWT. Satisfies #1, #4, and in some cases #5. Worse #2 and #3.
24" folder. Satisfies #1, maybe #4, sometimes, #5. Worse #2 and #3.
Brompton. Satisfies #3 and maybe #4, but has worse #1 and #5.


I suggest before you buy a new bike, talk to Thor about (1) adding an Aber Halo stem (2) getting cushier tires, and (3) fixing that wobble problem, which sounds like a manufacturing defect.

Barring that, if geometry is a big issue, then it's time to talk to Bike Friday. I am partial to the Tikit and have ridden it all over the Left Bank and Saint Germain (and a half year in Rome), but YMMV. Though I have the Hyperfold version, which is awesome, you should get the Model T "twiddly knob" version, as it has a bit less flexy stem. Even so stem flex may drive you nuts. Other Bike Fridays have stiffer stems and bigger wheels.

I don't know if you'll be happy with a 24" folder. You may find it so bulky that you'll wonder why you shouldn't just get a mountain bike.

Thank you for all your replies, I'll take time to check everything and make consistent replies. Thor is completely right, this is an used rental bike, so despite being carefully maintained, it has for sure seen some abuse. I didn't thought about that rear hub...

Yeah there are a lot of things I don't like about the bike and a lot can be tweaked, or I could live with even if I find it quite annoying. But the really most important is that mysterious rear train instability... I agree that I should try another tire. These tires I had never heard of are incredibly cushioned, it's a "shock" (absorber) compared to the Dahons I test rode from shops. That said, I never tried Big Apples, I only rode Marathon... And I've been pleased that with these I could handle potholes more or less the same than with full sized bikes. The point with cobbles is not comfort, which is ok. It's keeping decent control...

Will talk to the biggest Dahon shop of Paris which is only a few kms away. He's known to be a very competent mechanics. But not today... (not on a Saturday!).

You might like a Xootr Swift. Very simple fold, it folds into a narrow upright package which is ideal for storing on a balcony. It can be customised to your heart's desire, it can be made quite light, it is fast and rigid. The frame size like most folders is medium but you can use a stem size to suit you, or put on drop bars or bullhorn bars.

You might like a Xootr Swift.

A stiff, 406-wheel aluminum bike might not be the best idea on the cobblestones of Paris.

A stiff, 406-wheel aluminum bike might not be the best idea on the cobblestones of Paris.

there really is not a lot of difference between the ride characteristics of steel and aluminum. Mostly all of it is in how fat the tires are.

How about a Birdy, it has dual suspension ?

there really is not a lot of difference between the ride characteristics of steel and aluminum.

He's looking for a more cushy bike than the Vitesse.

Are you seriously going to claim that a Swift isn't any harsher than a Vitesse? With a straight face?

Waw. Thank you, but please don't fight! There are so many answers I really don't know where to start. Congrats, you probably are the most reactive board I ever posted to O_o.

I had'nt replied before because I first thoroughly cleaned my bike. And by thoroughly I really mean it. A lot industrial degreaser... oils, grease, and a full afternoon. I pretty much dismantled and reassembled the bike.

I knew a used rental bike would have suffered some abuse. Cleaning it really confirmed that! Scratched seatpost and steering post, polished handlebars where the clamp is, rims seriously eaten by the brakes, heavily used folding peddles (I noticed they flexed a lot...). New cables wouldn't hurt too.

On the other hand the frame is perfect, no dent, not bent AFAICT. Cleaned, greased and adjusted, it doesn't squeaks anymore and I think it flexes less, or at least more harmoniously. Also seems things have less tendency to loosen up while riding - it's less suffering from road vibrations (and old cobblestones really do shake). All that had to be expected and, well, that's why I spent an afternoon cleaning it.

Thor, thank you a lot for that "greasing the quick release". It changed my life. I never thought about doing it despite riding bikes since I'm... huh, born.

Now on to the rear drivetrain problem... Yeah badmother and thor you probably are right again, that rear wheel has something strange. It doesn't have obvious play, it is slightly out of true, but there seems to be something more i can't really point.

I'm seriously considering buying a couple of wheels (40€ the pair...). But as I have my Nuvinci hub waiting, I might better just mount it on a new rim. But I'd better avoid having it mounted on a rim (which is a bit expensive) if I am to buy another bike with different wheel size (maybe). As the wheel won't change the geometry anyway. So still thinking. Will just unmount the hub and grease it. And retrue the wheel, of course.

I played with varied positions and I think most of my grips come from the lack of reach. I'm not tall at all (1m75), but I really have short legs. Which means that arms+upper body is rather large for my size. I found I have to put the saddle very high to be really comfortable (too high for commuting), so I have to put it like I'd put in on any other bicycle and then it doesn't feels that good, but is ok.

With the stem deployed it gives me a fairly upright and decently comfortable posture, which is nice when there's not too much wind. But then some serious flex comes into play. And my point with emergency braking is not lack of power, but rather lack of modulation. But that's not all, I should be able to do with it. In fact, I think it mostly is due to the weight repartition in said configuration. Despite being upright, with every pole very deployed, it just is a massive lever. Especially as the front stem is angled forward and displaces the front load, well, to the front. Hence hard braking => just wants to tip over the front wheel.

Now if I get the stem all low, I really hate the riding position which puts a lot of strain on my shoulders. Putting it slightly higher gives a rideable position that still is unconfortable for more than a few kms. I guess an Aber Halo stem in this position would make it perfectly comfortable. But then, won't I have the same "willing to tip over the front wheel" behavior as I displace the weight toward the front? Still with less of a lever, to be honest. And how would I be supposed to fold it with the stem going inside? I'd have to change the stem to an outside folding one. Which would solve 90% of my grips with folding in the process, that said (the remaining 10% would just be having to set good lenghts when unfolding... But as suggested, a Sharpie and no worries anymore).

Hm, that makes me think that Dahon states the same folding width for their bikes both with outer and inner folding stem. That's really strange as outer obsiouly is gonna take some more space... isn't it?

Oh and don't fight about comfort re wheel size. I find my Vitesse perfectly comfortable on that point. The big tires just do well, and so does the flex. My problem with cobblestones has to do with my rear train and handling in bad weather, not so much being shaken. So no, I'm not especially looking for something more cushier (well, if it is, I'll take it of course). But I'd better avoid too much harsher.

Thank you again for all your replies. I leave, I have hubs to check and a wheel to true.

With an aberhallo type stem (there are other brands available on ebay) angled forward you should be able to tilt the stem + bars upwards when you fold and it ought to all fit on the inside of the fold. In fact you have a range of options in terms of how you angle the aberhallo stem as you can increase or decrease the length (height) of the dahon stem ('handlepost' in their terminology) so that the aberhallo stem is as much in line with the brake levers as possible and therefore will be as flat as possible when folded upwards (downwards when the handlepost is folded down).

I agree that small wheeled bikes don't deal with bumps too well and so I tend to think that a less aggressive position is best with a sprung saddle or thudbuster seat post.

With Dahon bikes you've got to make sure the handlepost (stem) clamp is adjusted perfectly so that when closed there's no play in the hinge at all. The hinge clamp mechanism has changed over the years, post a pic if you want an explanation of how to adjust it yourself. The smallest amount of play in the hinge clamp will be felt as flex when you're riding but in fact a well adjusted / maintained Dahon ought to feel quite stiff, so long as you don't have your handlebars unusually high.

I don't think it's been mentioned yet that the headset might also be loose, so that should be checked for play. I forget which size allen key is needed for the steerer bolt, it's an unusually large size. Essentially the method is the same as any ahead system though you have to been careful about alignment.

At NeoY2k: Do not worry. We fight, that is what we do :thumb:. Discussing bikes is like discussing football or similar, and with the winter the cabinfewer sets in. Worst time of the year this is.

Are you sure the feeling you have about too much weight on the front wheel is for real? It is just that for most folders you get more weight on the rear wheel than on a "normal" bike. Could it be that you are not yet used to the geometry of the bike? You feel that there is no frontwheel at all (since it is small) so you get this gutfeeling that you are going over the bars? I liad my folders in the front firs and if I need more I use a trailer to not put weight in the back.

Did you look into "bullhorn bars"? Look it up. Could be a cheap and easy solution for your reach problems.

Thanks, but when I disassembled, cleant and reassembled, I tightened everything. As I said, it doesn't seem to come loose with vibrations anymore, or at least, it hasn't suffered from it yet. It feels safer. But with the stem near fully extended, well, it still flexes. But as I said, that's not really a problem.

Chagzuki: thanks, I defintely will have to look more carefully at these stems!

Badmother: thanks, it's right I'm not yet used to the bike geometry. I might feel like i'm gonna tip over while I might not be actually tiping. That said, I'm not fond of bullhorn bars. But stem extenders could do more or less the same thing, but with handlebars I like. (in fact, I'd love slightly wider handlebars.)

at NeoY2k: Been thinking and reading again about your problem with thw bars You write:

"I played with varied positions and I think most of my grips come from the lack of reach. I'm not tall at all (1m75), but I really have short legs. Which means that arms+upper body is rather large for my size. I found I have to put the saddle very high to be really comfortable (too high for commuting), so I have to put it like I'd put in on any other bicycle and then it doesn't feels that good, but is ok.

With the stem deployed it gives me a fairly upright and decently comfortable posture, which is nice when there's not too much wind. But then some serious flex comes into play."

I am not sure that I fully understand what you are describing but I can guess.

Firs of all, most folder stems flex. This is why "the official ridingstyle for folders" are to sit down on the seat, use your legs and avoid pulling the handlebars as much as you can. This is something you get used to, at least if you try. If you ride fast and hard some adjustment in ridingstyle could be smart.

About the reach/ hand/ sholder issue. I am left with the feeling that this could be less about reach and more about hand possition. Being on this forum for many years I read a lot about such problems. Peopel often want the hands up or down depending on what they think is wrong. Often it is the flat bar that is the problem, do`nt ask me why.

I know I do not like them myself, and some bikes I can not ride at all w flat bars. My white folder I can easely ride w a flat bar but only becouse I use "ergon type grips". The Dahon curve did not feel good but I found the handlebars slightly to low (I like them level w the saddle) so I bought the "Aber hallo" from Thor and mounted it straight up. Then I mounted ergon type grips (w integrated tools) also from Thor and now it looks and feel great. Approx 5" of snow on the road so I can not ride a 16" folder w no studs but I am sure it is fine.

The Brompton straightish bars (M bars) is waiting for ergon type grips. Hurts after few km but I am not worried. I want to try the Dahon grips I bought some more to see if I want them also for two B`s.

A lot of peopel use ergon type grips with barends also to get several hand positions.

In your situation I would try to play around with different hand positions. I have a butterfly bar I often use when I can not make up my mind about a bike. It is not great for the fold. http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/bbb-multibar-butterfly-handlebars-matt-black-prod24514/ I mount it on the bike and keep an eye on "where my hands end up on theyr own". That is where they want to be. Then find out how you can keep them there on a bar with a better fold. If you have a quick release on the top of your stem it could be possible to just twist the bar when folding the bike.

Also it sounds like you are shifting your saddle height and that also afect how your hands feel. If your saddle is not right then your weight is not resting on your sit bones (bum) as it should. Same if your saddle is not comfortable or if you are sliding forwards or backwards on it, you`ll end up "hanging on your arms". Saddle should be just right to stretch your legs out just enough to get the maximum power and comfort while riding (look it up). When the saddle is right the handlebar and hand position is the next thing to fix.

One more thing: My bf bought a slightly used 20" folder. When trying it before buying the bike went almos "sideways". Worn out sidewalls on the tyre plus wery low tyre pressure resulted in the bike mowing almost sideways and shifting sides. A quality tyre w righ airpreassure made the trick for us and coul do so for you.

Keep us informed :thumb:.

Got some pix?

Thank you, that hand placement question I'll investigate as it might very well be the culprit. I have Dahon's ergonomic grips, what is the difference with an ergon type grip?

Regarding saddle height, I just changed it to try to find a more optimal position. But in the end, the saddle height remained where it should be. Overstretching just hurts the knees on longer rides and I couldn't easily hop on and off my bike which is a nono for commuting.

The riding style comment is pretty much spot on. I like to stand up and it was my first concern about folding bikes. Mandatory for me when going a long uphill, avoiding all kind of angry drivers/******* parking on the bike or bus lane, or when you get cornered one way or another and that you have roughly 3 seconds to get out of there if you want to stay alive. Riding in Paris at 5-6 PM quite shows the dark side of human nature >_<. Drivers in other cities, even big ones, are a lot more respectful.

Tires are almost new, and are at the correct pressure. And Dutch Perfect are very high quality tyres, up to Schwalbe's level (doesn't seems sold outside of Europe, though). The most puncture resistant tire ever made, with correct rolling resistance due to harder outer layer. OTOH, insanely heavy and the outer layer being slightly harder than marathon might give it a bit less grip. But the difference is barely noticeable, so I don't think it's the culprit.

Hmm some pix... What do you want to see?

NB: I think I have less sliding from the rear wheel now that I tightened the frame clamp! But it still isn't completely gone. The hunting continues. Will disassemble the hubs this evening. Front one makes a nasty sound since I cleant the bike, either grease out or crud in >_<. Better hurry before un ruin the hub.

Hmm some pix... What do you want to see?

I'd like to see Parisian women on small wheeled bikes .. preferably a Moulton or Tyrell .. :)

He's looking for a more cushy bike than the Vitesse.

Are you seriously going to claim that a Swift isn't any harsher than a Vitesse? With a straight face?

yes, because the frame material has little to do with ride comfort. Tire choice and suspension make a larger difference than frame material.

my dahon vitesse is aluminum, my giant yukon is aluminum and my canondale caad9 is aluminum. yukon is comfier than vitesse, but both are far comfier than caad9.

Small wheeled young men on bikes.. No wait.. :innocent:

ANYTHING that does not includ snow is fine with me :):thumb:.

From what it sounds like, you might want to go with a Montague Folding Bike (http://www.montaguebikes.com). They have full-size wheels, but fold really easily if you need to store it in your apartment. If you're looking for a commuter to eat road, you can't go wrong here.

Aha, a young, light haired parisian woman riding a beautiful Moulton? Hmm... Wish I could take a picture xD

Badmother: yep, come to France, we're far from snow right now!!! (Knocking on wood... but this winter is so sweet I have my window wide open right now. I'd guess we're around 10°C. Niceeee!!!! BTW, it should be under 0 at that time of the year. Go figure...).

Lbj: thanks, Montague was one of the ones I retained. Will continue to think about it. The big bonus of Montague is its small depth which is the most annoying dimension for me. But there are so many fishes in this pond... Anyway, I'm starting to feel more comfortable with the fold of the Dahon. I am not enamored with this, but others Dahon, and all Tern bikes, seem to have adressed the problem. I quite like Tern's N-Fold.

I hadn't had the time yet to investigate the essential question of posture. Except that the handlebar point might be quite accurate, and that I don't feel having a good knee angle - this might give me this impression of lack of reach, I find myself wishing the seat was a few cm behind.

But I had time to unmount my wheels, unmount and repack the hubs, and retrue the wheels.
I mean, the front hub. There were no dust covers (!!!) so when cleaning the bike I put dirt inside it. It is silent again. Balls seemed slightly ovoid... Cones and cups just are obviously far from new... Will still do the job (well, some of you would have trashed it, probably).

I just removed the rear wheel, and I'm not even willing to clean the hub. Why? It is STUCK. I mean, not because it's too tight, I loosened it. It just spins like a cube. Cleaning it? I think the cups just are worn out. And I can't find my cassette tool anymore anyway.

But I don't really want to buy a new wheel+cassette+chain. (some sprockets would help too >_< ). And I don't want to have my Nuvinci hub mounted as this will cost me 100€ and I'm not sure to keep riding the same wheel size - what if I change for a bike friday or any other?

I don't intend to keep the bike more than a few month as it's pretty much ruined. That's what I bought this bike for initially, to discover the folder and then make the right choice. I knew it would have been a bit abused from 1 year of rent - but 1 year is not that long. But no, the bike simply is worn out. Changing every component would be silly (as in, sell it cheap, and buy another one in better shape is a better deal).

I also think I'm not far from discovering why it slides for left to right, but can't be sure as the hub is pretty much dead. I just discovered while applying side pressure to the frame, that there was torsion along the rear hub axis. The wheel could be made to angle toward the left or the right. But not by applying pressure to the wheel, you have to put pressure to the frame. So, is the hub going into torsion? Or is it the rear of the frame? Or is it the hinge? Hard to see because a fraction of a millimeter on the frame could cause that torsion and I obviously won't see it. I don't see any cracks in any tube...

Any idea how to find why? Because, if I find a way to have a good posture, I might very well choose to continue with a Dahon Vitesse... But if it's just the Vitesse frame that is sensitive to torsional stress, well, I'd better try another model/brand. I'm asking this question because Dahon switched to hydroformed tubes and Tern, using the same frame, is especially proud of it's "rear frame triangular truss" that is "less sensitive to torsion". Also, Tern's new hinges are also specifically advertised as "torsion-locking". Which might mean that older designs are sensitive to this. On the other hand, if the same was happening to you, you would have had noticed and put Dahon to shame, so it must not be completely it. Maybe it's sensitive and as the bike is worn out, this Achille's stand reveals itself more clearly?

Hm. Puzzled.

Will try to clean the hub without removing the cassette. Gonna be fun.

Done!
Verdict:
Worn out to hell rear hub with (slightly, TBH) bent axle.
And and and...
And the rear fork has been slightly bent on the left branch so it is 4 mm wider than the dropout should be. The rear fork branch is perfect; the left is slightly bent 7 cm under the brake axle.

Might it be that?

my dahon vitesse is aluminum

Ah I had forgotten that the Vitesse is not steel.

But I think that's besides the point. The Swift is a notoriously stiff folder. Are you really saying that that a Swift isn't any harsher than a Vitesse?

I'd like to see Parisian women on small wheeled bikes .. preferably a Moulton or Tyrell .. :)

Paris Story 1. I rode my Bike Friday Tikit to the Centre Georges Pompidou in Paris, where I met a 20-something photographer who takes lots of pictures of people on folders. She had a turquoise Brompton and we swapped bike tales and she took pics of my bike.

Paris Story 2. I took to riding my Tikit in Paris at night, in Saint Germain, in-between conference sessions. One night I rode out of my hotel only to find my way blocked by a big camera crew doing a commercial shoot for Lancome starring none other than Emma Watson. Actually it was exactly this shoot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gE97Y4TLd0c). So I retreat the other direction on the street and make a big detour to the Louvre, then lots of biking around. I come back on another street only to find that Emma Watson has AGAIN blocked the entire road with A DIFFERENT commercial shoot. Grrr..... The next night after that I make my way by bike to Shakespeare and Company, only to find that it's been closed down because, you guessed it, Emma Watson has taken it over for ANOTHER commercial shoot. The night after that, I'm barely able to make it over the bridge to Notre Dame because Emma Watson has taken over both sides of the Seine for ANOTHER commercial shoot. I have since declared Emma Watson to be my mortal enemy and nemesis. CURSE YOU EMMA WATSON!

Sure you did not just have too much french wine?

Paris story 1. No bikes involved. Dumped stupid drunk boyfriend and decided to go back to the hotel alone. Just to discower that Paris is BIG and taxidrivers do NOT know all the hotels by heart. When trying to find hotel walking I realised something changed just before midnight. Few peopel out and totally different athmosphere.. Found hotel. So did stupid drunk boyfriend eventually (had probably been out drinking with Emma Watson).

Paris story 2. No bikes involved. Went alone to look at the tower. Lucky enough to run out of battery when stupid hungower boyfriend called.

Paris story 3. No bikes involved. Invited to a party in a Chinese (I think) restaurant. Two guys payed for everything. The place filled up and they started using tables outside. In the end they put a table in front of the bench at the busstop for somebody to sit at to eat.

Many many moons ago, when young and slim and.. Actually stupid drunk (ex) boyfriend is a great guy but I hate alcohol.

+10? I`d give my left arm for a week there. -10 to 15 here (around -30 for several weeks last year this time). Should have taken pictures when riding to the shop today. This picture is from earlyer this week.

There is no bike cooperatives where you live? Two newish wheels had been an easy fix for the bike. I`ve got all you need to fix it but it does not help you much.

BUT: If the bike is alu and frame is bent then that is a totally different story :eek:.

Moon and Dog

That is actually a pretty cool photo.

Hmm... Looking at these Swift bikes and saying it didn't catch my interest would be lying. Seems to be a contender to BF Pocket Companion, though offering horizontal dropouts and constant chain lenght when folding (thanks!!!!). Plus it seems it's not as wide, which would be the problem with a BF. With folding pedals it would be a rather slim solution... But it still looks a rather large fold. Price seems reasonable.

Though each time I see the Dahon IOS (or Tern's Eclipse, which seems improved, but larger :'( and more expensive :'( ) I cry like a kid wanting his toy. Have to try it (a shop nearby sells it). But its thickness, its weight (with the Nuvinci... expect 35 lbs), and it's price (can be had for 600€ from Germany for the base model, but shop price is > 1000€) don't make me perfectly happy. Especially its width (I mean... If I can't store, how important are the other features...).

We also have the Amiiva here, the french boutique folder... But is is suspended and I don't know if it has much more to offer compared to a Dahon, and especially a Tern. They are proud of their improved hinges... But it seems Tern improved them even further. But on the picture, it seems like this amiiva has an extra long wheelbase. So long it makes the 20" wheels look like 16" wheels. Very pricey too (I think in the order or 1200€ for the base model).

Still investigating my riding position on the Dahon (as it has the perfect folded size). Backing my seat toward the rear wheel and making it the straightest possible. Tinkering with that knee/ball/pedal axle thing.

As I'm still riding the bike every day, (and that it still hurts my shoulders xD), my arms suffer more and more. Which is a good thing as it serves as a breadcrumb as to why it hurts. So now my arms and forearms down to the wrists hurt. Off the bike, putting my wrists in the "flat bar" slightly hurts down to the forearms, even with no load. Makes me feel like my shoulders don't turn that comfortably. Turning them like if I had North Road feels better. Public bikes are fitted with North Road, and my old MTB was with one on the straightish side, though a lot more angled than Dahon's anyway. On a quiet street, I just put my hands how they felt freely and comfortably. They pretty much sat where I'd be putting handlebar extenders: angled, and in the front of the actual handlebar. So yes, maybe no more than a couple more inches, but not the same position at all.
Sad point is I don't like extenders, I like to always have my brakes and shifters handy. Should try them again though...

P.S: Yep the frame seems slightly bent. A very slight angle that does leed to a 4mm shift on the left rear stay, away from the bike. But it seems rather minimal, isn't it?

P.S.2: You guys gave me a great laugh with your parisian stories... xDD. It's true there are a lot of ads shot in Paris. But you clearly were out of luck with Emma Watson. Should have tried to run through the stage to see her reaction! xD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYl3jsZqzIw

The Tikit. They used to sell it in Denmark.

On the handposition. My personal theory: Let your arms hang straight down, relaxed. Then pretend you grab something (like a handlebar) whit arms still hanging the same way. Look down at your hands, what angle they are at. It is my opinion that this is the position (angle) they are most relaxed in. I just bought a handlebar from thor http://www.thorusa.com/accessories/handlebar.htm The Satori Wienna to tryto get thids handposition on a folder. I guess you would need a quick release on the top of the stem to use someting like this. A mustache bar could give a similar angle to your hand and would be closer to the reach you want. Also that would mean a quick release or something is needed.

Edit: http://www.flickr.com/photos/28316635@N07/4868362036/in/pool-68401638@N00/

Trough all the years I`ve been on this forum a damaged alu frame is something that scare peopel. I suggest take some pix and describe the damage in the frame forums if you do not get a response here. I newer had a damaged alu bike but from what I read here I would be scared to ride one.

Hmm sorry for that long (and not very useful) post you read before.

Okay so I played more with saddle position and went to my local Dahon reseller to check some bikes... And request his comments on my bike.

About my bike: its lack of precision is not normal, the other new Dahons I tested were perfectly precise. For the stem hinge loosening all the time, the mech just said "loctite". He suspects the bike developped some torsion and told me that Dahons are subject to torsional deformation when they age... He didn't investigated my bike further because, well I guess, I wasn't paying. I might have paid, but I feel that the bike is too worn out to be interesting to fix - that's why I didn't changed wheels and just cleaned the hubs, even if they clearly met the end of their life. And I suspect most components are at the end of their life, plus some potential for a slightly bent frame...

About posture:
I put my saddle the most toward the back I could and my knees and legs seem to feel better (to be confirmed over time). One more inch would seem nice, but... I settled for the stem only deployed 1". It's just a little bit lower than the saddle. Does the trick, but doesn't feel really right to me. I don't feel like in a "sightseeing" upright position, and I feel I still lack reach to be in a "performance" position. But I don't lack that much reach. My wrist position doesn't feels natural and when I look at my old bike, and at the public bike, they all were a lot more angled - public bikes are plain North Road, old MTB were just more angled. I feel I'd need something like a less exagerated North Road, probably with an aber hallo. I guess finding something like that is doable. My guess is it then would feel ok.

So I tried two other Dahons: Mu XL and Speed TR.
The Mu XL is a veery different bike. The Speed, comparatively, rides closer to the Vitesse. That Mu feels ultra stiff, light, and reactive. Quite fun, but not what I'm looking for. The seat position felt right from the start (but that might just have been how the shop mounted it...). Reach was OK, the Andros stem felt like a good idea but then didn't liked it that much, except it's one big latch except of two small, it seems more robust, and it makes sure that the handlebars are perfectly perpendicular to the front wheel - the telescoping stem has a bit of left/right play before you lock it, so it's always a bit off...

Then the Speed TR. Waw! Completely among the lines of the Vitesse but just better. The "just" that makes a big difference.
Now, is it me or is the speed longer???? Because first, I felt I had more room in the cockpit and a better posture right out of the box. Second, well, it rides more like a full sized bike. A lot less nervous, a lot heavier steering, but still precise. On the other hand, it is an heavy bike, but I like the way it handles.
On this bike, the Andros stem really shined. Agressive? Extend it to full reach. Feels better, I only wish I could have put the saddle 1-2" back. The mech told me it wouldn't back more than 1", but that if I wanted to back it more, I could have the Mu XL seatpost with a rail, that would allow to back it 1" further. Some time to spend (like you're half an our too early)? Put it right up and enjoy a very upright position, that would be completely inefficient if you had to fight wind, but is perfect to enjoy the view while riding slowly. Would also benefit from handlebars more suited to wrist pronation, but that's about it. I understand that not being able to dial independently height and reach is not optimal, but I like that you can switch position in a second. And the posture I could get with the stem in the front, slightly angled toward the ground, just felt rather right.
I have a hard time believing the outside folding stem doesn't increases package width (as I wouldn't be using these enormous racks all the time, of course). Anyone to confirm? This outside folding stem has the advantage of less messing with the cables, easier fold, and when you handle it, it keeps your clothes from touching the wheel. Nice touch.
It flexes a lot less than my Vitesse, I think mainly due to the pedals (it had folding pedals in the shop, not removable ones??? but they felt perfect, larger, more grip, and less flexy cause mines are very flexy :( ), the cranks that also flex a lot less (well it might also be the axle, but it flexes quite a bit on my bike, but on the Speed, Nada).

I'm quite impressed by the Speed TR and am confirmed my Vitesse is just dead. So I might buy the Speed TR - unfortunately I'd have to buy it online, because the shop just wants the double than online! I understand that everyone has to live, I understand that I'd get service, but hey, with the remaining 600€ (760$, would have equated 900$ a few months ago considering USD/EUR conversion rate) I could pay a bike shop for some serious service anytime I'd need it.

But before talking about it, I also get the feeling that Dahons don't age well, and are sensitive to torsion. Something that, on the other hand, doesn't makes me want to spend around 900$ on a new Dahon...

Yup everybody. I hope there are still a few people listening!
I used my bike more and continued thinking and fiddling. And I think I better get the fit issue I have!

As I told, I'm gifted with short legs and long arms (maybe should I try cycling upside down?). Not difformity level, of course, but this gives me a bit trouble finding adequate trousers (have to fold up the hem two times, or generously cut them), and for shirts, TM Lewin exists! (a rather inexpensive but good quality shirt maker that offers a very wide range of arm length/collar width combinations. Check it out if you need shirts!). Plus I'm duck footed (this actually is more serious, not just "flat feet", and my knees are guaranteed to fail and leave me with two wheels, but parallel ones, by the age of 60. But it's some time away, just have to take care of my knees. Though I don't know what being duck footed would imply in terms of bike fit.

Lets get the facts:
I'm 5'9", but with a 30" inseam. Arms are hard to measure. I have short legs, long upper body, and even longer arms (useful to hug my girlfriend :p )

Now I had a look at Xootr's detailed bike geometry page that helped me transfer all this into bike problematics. A 30" inseam is their lowest quoted inseam. So with the saddle rather low, I get a rather low horizontal distance between saddle and pedals, which explains why I felt the need to back the saddle as much as possible on my Dahon. I know the Xootr is not the Dahon, but the principle still applies. That said, the Xootr seems to have a more angled seat tube, which sounds like a big plus in my case.

Now this 30" inseam translates into 30" saddle-to-pedal distance. This is their lowest figure, which gives a 18" reach, which again is their lowest figure.
While I have small legs, I have long upper body which translates into a size M or L "bike frame" by their standard. So the remaining distance has to go... between the saddle and the handlebars. So my long upper body translates into needing some reach... Hence my feeling of lacking reach on my Dahon. On a side note, I'm shocked by the very small figure quoted by Xootr in comparison to Dahon's.

I don't know if I got the fact right, so if some of you could confirm, or if you think I'm completely wrong, please don't hesitate to comment!

To top things off: Badmother, thanks for the handlebars angle tip. I had fun trying to ride virtual handlebars (I mean, handling my bars by the sides, and angling my wrists like they would on a North Road or something like that) and I instantly felt better. Upride, but also reasonably bent, though with less angle - more flat - might also explain why I am looking for reach on my Vitesse, as the most bent I am, the closest to my indeal wrists angle my wirsts are! Fully bent, I prefer handles parallel to the frame, but hey, isn't it what bar ends are made for.

Now after the technical headache, some mechanical lust.

I rode the Dahon Speed TR, and liked it, especially with the Andros Stem fully extended. I like the way it folds (with the stem outward) and the folded package without the extra big rack (the same package as my vitesse). I'm in love with the Andros stem: from "I still have some 15 minutes to spare, sightseeing time!" to "I'm 15 minutes late and there's serious wind, let's use some brute force" depending on the occasion, in a few seconds. Steering was a lot better, especially with the andros stem fully forward. It became more twichy in a more upright setting.
The bad: Buying the Speed TR would mean that I trust Dahon not going out of business as it uses a lot of proprietary parts, and that I trust Dahon's reliability though my (admitedly beat up) Vitesse did end up into an insecure piece of rotating hardware in a year of use (so even if I don't abuse it as much, what about >5 years of daily commute? I'm under the impression that it will end up as effed up). To be honest, yeah I understand, hinges are just hinges. Though Tern looks like a big improvement... but they fold too large in width. I'm left with the unpleasant feeling that these bikes are made with planned obsolescence in mind. Yeah everything and everyone is planned for obsolescence I know... But I prefer long-lasting stuff, especially when it costs a lot.

'Kay, so, I need a new bike anyway and would like to avoid proprietary parts etc...
I need it for daily commuting, rain or shine (so fenders and ways to carry load). I'd like to enjoy some light touring. The folded width should not exceed 12". Other dimensions are rather free. I'd like the fold not to be too annoying - I feel the Vitesse is very annoying to fold due to that adjustable stem that folds in between and interferes with whatever it can.

Bike Friday Tikit: Too thick, 15" width. Plus 16" wheels... Would prefer bigger.
Bike Friday Pocket: Nice, but if the folds looks simple, people's reports are very different and deem them more "bikes that fold" more than "folding bikes". Rear stays protruding when folded, chain known to fall when folding. Plus I'd need a spring loaded chain tensioner to use it with my Nuvinci IGH.
Bike Friday NWT: Idem, but perfectly fitted and very expensive. Too bad, it would sound like a perfect solution.
Tern Link: Too thick, 15". Proprietary parts? and hinges.
Tern Eclipse: So lovely with its 24" wheels and beautiful, large frame. But too thick, 16,5".
Dahon Speed: See above. Otoh, don't think I diss the bike. I loved riding it. Not perfect, but quite lovely.
Dahon IOS: Just like the Tern Eclipse, though 15" large. Fun fact: Vitesse is 11,5" thich and Link is 15", IOS is 15" and Eclipse is 16,5".
Aparte: I feel like Dahon's way to measure folded sizes is very optimistic. With all the bits sticking out, measuring my Vitesse gives something more like Tern's numbers... That also means that I could get a 15" thick bike... As it just depends how it really is measured. It just needs to be thinner or same as a Dahon Vitesse
Airnimal Joey: Ultra lovely and pricey. But fold is just ultra not convenient, though folded package is a dream.
Montague Crossroad: So beautiful! Very interesting Octagon adjustable stem. But cantilevers and 700c tires? Why?
Montague Swissbikes: So ugly, but V-brakes and 26".
Montague DX: Tubing like the crossroad though less beautiful, V-brakes and 26": the discontinued perfect Montague.
Now common to all Montagues... the fold is... ok, doesn't seem that bad though you have to pop off the front wheel, and the folded package is not very convenient but is very small - quite smaller than a Xootr, actually! Too bad only the new 700c bikes feature horizontal dropouts... I could use a non-spring-loaded chain tensioner, I know. The embarassing question is fitting fenders on it, especially front fenders. As you have to unmount that front wheel and turn the fork 90°... And load carrying will need some tinkering, it has not been made for - yeah, it can also use handlebar/seatpost hooks, I know. TBH, I'm quite interested by Montague bikes. They don't have to perform like full size bike: they are full size bikes. I think I can expect some comfort and excellent stability due to big wheels inertia. Now, on the other hand, I have trouble trusting Montagues folded size numbers. What? Only slightly bigger than my Dahon? Only 12" thick? Hmmm... Skeptical
Xootr Swift: Sounds like a good bike. Hz dropouts. Sounds like you can fit fenders, add ways to carry load though not the best in this departments. Dynohub possible. 20" inch wheels actually seem excellent when it comes to stuffing load on the bike! Nice looking, standard parts and seems rugged. The folded size is enormous, but I drawn outlines of the Swift, Montague and Vitesse and if the Swift still is enormous, well, it's the saddle that makes that incredible height. And I could fit the saddle between two flower bacs on my balcony and have the rest of the bike under, so I can fit it -and use very efficiently the space as I can't walk under the flower backs of course. 10,2" is thin and I love it. Plus, as I drawn and measured the outlines, the Swift is the only of the three I feel I can trust the given measurements. They seem logical and justified.

So it'll rather be a fight between a Montague, a Swift, and Pocket/NWT - and a Speed TR that I still like though would prefer to avoid. TBH, I'm more interested by the Montague and the Swift. Especially the Swift as the folded package is handy for my storage space and people have rave review - many state they prefer its ride over the Bike Friday's!!! The Swift folds bigger, but IMO better as I can leave fenders and racks, it is thin, and I trust their quoted numbers. I'm worried the 20" wheels of the Swift won't drive as stable as the 26/700c of a Montague. But the Swift is said to be very stable - how much and why would it be more stable than a Speed TR? Is it more stable than a Speed TR?

Now back to the FIT question. On the TR, the max quoted reach is from 24,8" to 28,1". Xootr quotes 18" for my inseam size... 19,5" with the "large" 100mm stem. Wow! Is there something wrong here about the numbers??????
I don't know the real reach of the Dahon for my given saddle height. But this point has me quite worried about the Xootr.

So here it is... Thank you guys for your help!

To make things even harder, you might want to check the iF Reach (fast folding) / Reach Racing (http://www.facebook.com/MyPacificReach)(more like the Airnimal/Montague, has to take front wheel off), both full suspension 20" bikes. Has the right geometry too.


Juan

You have some serious problems choosing I can see.

Do NOT worry about 20" wheels (or 16 for that matter) wheels unless you ride in 4" or more of snow or sand. It is just a matter of getting used.

Also: I am trying to picture this balcony that can only take a 15" wide bike. Sure it is a balcony and not just a "fire balcony" (where you can get outside the building and shut the doors behind you)? In that case, are you allowed to block it with a bike? Just asking..

Size fold and how to get spares is things to look into, but maybe make sure there is a shop not too far away that can repair your bike if needed?

Did you try a Brompton?

If you buy a folder a small fold is great if you want to take it on a bus or train or into a shop to avoid leaving it outside.

I think you should buy what works for you and not worry about 5-6 years from now. Maybe your bike is stolen long before that. I trust Dahon to have spares in the future. If you ride your bike long and hard you could see the frame fail too, not just hinge stem and wheels. A folder is like a pair of shoes. Sometimes you have to throw the old one away and get a new one!

Sounds like you should buy a Dahon Speed TR..

This thing of measuring the fold: Remember you can get different types of pedals. I guess it is measured with the stock pedals. Remember you can buy detatchable pedals that would make the fold smaller: http://www.thorusa.com/accessories/pedals.htm . Scroll down.

Thanks.

Badmother: aha, no it's not a 15" wide balcony. More like 35" wide one. It's Paris, everything is smaller xD. I can't use the full size not because there's no room, but because I'm not alone living in that flat and that others want to enjoy the balcony. That's all!

I'm not really interested in the smallest fold, just a fold that would fit correctly in the balcony and not too offensive at office. I don't take the bus or train, in fact, I haven't bought a single ticket since last september (before, I had a pass, but I already commuted by bike most of the time anyway for a year). Shops are a bit more boring, but if I plan to go shopping i'll usually just walk, or use public bikes. And if I want to enter a shop anyway, well, it's not that hard to find a place for a folder in the shop entrance. They might be a bit reluctant, but asked nicely, I never had a problem with my Dahon yet. I won't lock it outside anyway. That's why I bought a folder!

About the wheel size... Again, it really is not about comfort or potholes. My Vitesse just handles them perfectly, I can't complain. My grip with the steering on my Dahon is that I can't hold the bars with one hand and do large signs to drivers (I mean, left arm fully extended to show I'm turning left and preserving some space), while not deriving from my trajectory. Also, when going fast downhill on a narrow bike lane, trajectory is not as much a straight line. Cornering at speed is not that easy because I can't lean as much to the side to turn by inclining the bike before falling. All this is just perfectly logical. The smaller wheels just have less gyroscopic intertia. It's just physics: a bigger wheel spinning will be hard to rotate over any other direction. A smaller will be much easier. Because the rotating mass (the rim and the tire) is a lot lighter and it is closer to the rotational center.

Now, the Speed TR is better than the Vitesse in this department, but I wouldn't say night and day. But it shares the same wheel size and same physical limitations. But I'm under the impression that maybe a slightly longer wheelbase would improve this behavior slightly further. Also, with Dahon Andros stem, with the stem full forward the steering was a lot "heavier" (which I preffered) than with it upright, so I'd guess geometry also has an influence.

I test rode a Brompton 3 times in several shops as I was about to get a bargain on a used Brompton. I chose to go with a Dahon, and that was not because of the price - and of course the Brompton folded best. I'll still take my beat up Vitesse anyday over a Brommy! It is even less stable (logical, wheels are even smaller, so even less gyroscopic effect), standing on the pedals does not feel nice at all, pulling the handlebars I feel them just flex way too much (Dahon is a little flex. Brompton is a lot. But no play - though my Dahon has no play when I tighten the nut... I just eventually loosens). Plus very limited gears. It's an excellent bike, no doubt. Do I like it? No way.

As for bike lifetime... I had a Mongoose MTB, so nothing stellar (but not the cheapest crap mongooses, a half decent one). Of course I had to change components as they got ruined... I even had accidents with it. It served 10 years before I went looking somewhere else (public bikes as I went out of big storing space and you can't bring it anywhere and I don't want it stolen). The frame is still good, it's hanging in the building's "locked" bike room. This bike would probably cost around 700$ today. Folder or not folder, if I put 1000$ in a bike, I expect it to live at least as long. Stealing it from me would mean burgle the appartment and leave with the bike or actually take me out of the bike to run with it. First case I have insurance, second case there'll be blood on the pavement. Stuff has a lifetime. Buying something which lifetime is obviously (dare I say intentionally?) compromised doesn't get my approval. Hence my reticence for the Speed TR. Also, standard parts mean the small bike shop 75 meters from where I live could solve any issue above usual maintenance, as could any bike shop anywhere.

Folding bike: thanks, I didn't really looked into the Reach. It is more 2000$ than 1000$ :/

Do NOT worry about 20" wheels (or 16 for that matter) wheels unless you ride in 4" or more of snow or sand. It is just a matter of getting used.

Exactly, it feels twitchy in the beginning but after some time it feels very natural and fun, even with 16" wheels.

OP, you said that you got the bike from a tour company (the one under Hotel de Ville?). Think of all those tourists that jump on those small wheel bikes for the first time and ride them through Paris's streets. If small wheels would be an issue, that company would go bankrupt long time ago.

As for Brompton, did you try the M or S handlebar? The S is significantly stiffer.

Now, the Speed TR is better than the Vitesse in this department, but I wouldn't say night and day. But it shares the same wheel size and same physical limitations. But I'm under the impression that maybe a slightly longer wheelbase would improve this behavior slightly further. Also, with Dahon Andros stem, with the stem full forward the steering was a lot "heavier" (which I preffered) than with it upright, so I'd guess geometry also has an influence.

This is the Andros stem. Put it on any similar bike and you get the same effect. Also bullhorn bars or seriousely swept back bars. You get the same effect as when you put a ahead type stem (or a quill if you can do it securely), less twitchy.

Stuff has a lifetime. Buyinsomething which lifetime is obviously (dare I say intentionally?) compromised doesn't get my approval.

Any folder is a compromise!

About stem flex and wheelsize/ ridingstyle: If you decide on a folder you need to adjust. You can not have it all! It is fun to read about yours (and others) slightly negative description of the Brompton. I (we) absolutely love the bike for what it CAN do, therefor I (we) tend to forget or ignore the limitations of the bike- we adjust to it (and we adjust it- like in modify). It is like any lovestory, it is all in your head. There is more than one person around here that seriousely wonder why I waste money on such "gadgets", but like others have stated you get a lot of atention from peopel when you fold the bike on a trainstation, use it as a luggage trolley or pull a trailer with it.

Anyway. Did you look into the Dahon Smoothound? http://www.chari-u.com/dahon/dahon12/4smooth.html

Let me congratulate you for caring about what many people tend to ignore:
The ride, I myself feel that the better the ride, the more I enjoy riding and therefore the more I ride, to me twitchiness and unstable ride are not good things, no matter how used to it you get.

Saying this, I echo Badmothers words that "twitchiness" is not entirely because of wheel size, its because of bad geometry.

Juan

Exactly, it feels twitchy in the beginning but after some time it feels very natural and fun, even with 16" wheels.

OP, you said that you got the bike from a tour company (the one under Hotel de Ville?). Think of all those tourists that jump on those small wheel bikes for the first time and ride them through Paris's streets. If small wheels would be an issue, that company would go bankrupt long time ago.

As for Brompton, did you try the M or S handlebar? The S is significantly stiffer.

Kamtsa, it's not about "twichy in the beginning then you adapt". That's done, yeah it felt twitchy at first, and now I can ride it correctly, and can take advantage of the small wheels in that they allow me to slalom between cars in traffic jam in a very fun way. Its quick acceleration also is super nice, especially climbing. And it's not only about my obviously beat up bike, it also is about brand new Dahons I borrowed from the shop for a test ride (a Mu XL and a Speed TR). And tests of Bromptons and Birdys.

It's about riding one handed to do big signs to drivers at any speed for any desired time and still keeping a straight, safe trajectory. I can't do that on my Vitesse (just small and short signs, not enough), I could do better but still not convinced yet on the Speed TR with stem fully ahead. It's about going downhill Montmartre as fast as I can, merging with traffic at Place de Clichy, while autocars are parked on the right lane and I have to share the remaining small lane with cars. It's about cornering by inclining the bike to make small turns at high speed. It's about staying alive while riding the place de la Concorde (though if I can avoid this place, I do. It's a death wish, no matter what you ride. But the alternate road is going near the Elysée (our White House) and as they randomly pop barriers everywhere it's Daedalus labyrinth!).

So yes, the bike performance is absolutely trouble free to do sightseeing (yep, the guys under Hotel de Ville) or leisure riding! This kind of bike is perfectly suited to such a use. Even the defaults of my beat up bike I could live with for such rides! But that's not what I need. What I need is a decently performing bike that I can safely ride any speed, anywhere, rain or shine, 20-40 kms a day and for several years as it now is my only form of transportation in Paris and suburbs. The Vitesse doesn't fits. The Speed TR is an improvement, but I still expect better before I part with my hard-earned cash.

I tried both M and S handlebars on the Brompton. Yes, the S is reasonably stiffer. But the riding posture O_o doesn't fits me at all and I clearly preferred the ride of Dahons vs the Brompton. And this was quite a night and day difference. And as I don't do multi modal, its folded size is just eye-pleasing, but the Dahon folded size fits just as well on my balcony.

I feel like I'm pissing off everyone here. Yeah a folding bike is a compromise. But there are priorities and limits to these compromises.
- I need a solid road performer, stable, reliable even long-term
- It has to fold under 12" thick to store where it has (limit)
- Its fold should not drive me mad (but then, appart from the Vitesse or the Airnimal, any other folding bike seems ok. BF NWT has me puzzled though).

Badmother, yes the Brompton is an awesome bike. Would I really benefit from its strenghts? No. Are its defaults important to me? Yes. Like in a relationship, you have to adapt. But you don't have to choose a bike/a person that is the opposite of your needs/desires to start with!

Any folder is a compromise. The question is: where to put the compromise? Xootr seems to have compromised the folded size: it's enormous. But flat, so it suits me. I don't see anything compromising its lifetime or reliability, and people say it has an excellent ride. Montague folds very small, barely bigger than a Dahon. Its fold is fast though not the easiest, but the folded package is not meant to be carried. Its a real full size bike, and again I don't see anything compromising its lifetime or reliability (well, a bit more than the Xootr, but still acceptable). What I don't like about the Montague is that is sounds a hell to put real fenders and add decent load carrying capacity to it. Wouldn't it be that, I'd already have bought it. BF NWT/Pocket integrity doesn't seem too much compromised, but folded size is ok, fit can be ok, folding process has great strenghts, carrying capacity is stellar... Now it seems that in real life its hard to fold, and it would need a spring loaded chain tensioner to be used with a hub.

These are the kinds of compromises I'm leaning toward. The Xootr sounds like it would well suit my needs, except I'm very concerned by the small cockpit stated dimensions and how stable does it actually ride compared to what a Montague could offer me.

About riding style. Let me give you some examples why I don't ever intend to adapt to a "foldie" "cool" "relaxed" riding style.

I used public transport bikes. Heavy 3-speed clunkers not that well maintained (or abused a lot). Random shifting, ridiculous braking adjustment (either it rubs full time, or it has the stopping power of marshmallow brakes), not adjustable to your fit except saddle height.

From St Ouen (north suburb of Paris) to where I live (south west of Paris), crossing Montmartre (so climbing and downhill required) required 35 minutes with them. Fast, any day, any time. Now on my Vitesse, I need 50 minutes for the same ride!!! (because I have to ride slower, on the flat because I can't make signs to drivers to secure my path and because its not that stellar performing, downhill because I have to brake before the speeds makes it dangerous given the relative instability of the bike at high speeds. I don't want to ride it any faster than around 22 mph).

I chose biking because it's more pleasant, but also faster than public transport. With the Vitesse, it's not that pleasant, and its slower. And I'm comparing it to beat up public bikes that despite being poorly adjustable gave me better riding posture!!!
Now why not using public bikes? It costs me around 500$ /year. For non adjustable beat-up bikes. I figured I could do better and more cost-effective buying a folding bike (hence the needs for a 1000$ bike to last more than a couple years).

Another example of the performance needed. Had to go from where I live, south west, to meet someone who had to give me a video file (that's my job, I'm a sound engineer) near a north east train station before he went home, and I had to be there as fast as possible.
The Vitesse's poor performance/fit made me arrive 10 minutes later than if I had taken the train. The big deal? It was raining like hell, and the guy waited for me under the pouring rain for these 10 minutes. I could read in his eyes "You cycling *******".

Another example. I have friends waiting for me, the other side of Paris, to have a drink. With the vitesse, being slower than the train, they'll just say "hell, why don't you just take the train like everyone?". Even public bikes made me go faster than the train, resulting in "Woaw, you're already there??? Cycling in Paris really sounds incredible!".

Last example. It's raining like Noah's coming back. Have to manage a security margin due to the wet road, and here bike's stability shines a lot too as I can push this margin further. Trust me, in these situations, the faster I'm home, the happier I am.

Sorry if I didn't made my use of bicycles clear enough.
And sorry if it appears as a massive rant, it isn't. Really!

Flex is an inherent characteristic of the way various parts of the Brompton is designed. When I first got mine I attributed it's 'springy' feel to it being made of steel but now I'm thinking it may be more a result of the hinge clamp and wedge stem design. Those parts act as springs.

Presumably the stiffness of a Tern will suit your riding style.

One option is just to buy the andros stem (if you can find a retailer) and use it on the Vitesse. See how it works out for you, and save your cash. Look out for a good deal on a second-hand swift in the meantime.

RVD72 and Folding-Bikes, thank you, I have received your private messages. I would love to answer to you but as I am under 50 posts, I can't answer to private messages!!!!! Instead of stupingly spamming the board, I'd love if you could PM me your email address so I could reply. Thanks!

Chagzuki: thank you for your reply and for taking into account the first half of my message re. posture :). Yep, an Andros stem could be interesting - but unfortunately my Vitesse is quite worn out :/ so investing in it has me lukewarm.

An eye on a second-hand swift? Yep, I have a serious eye on the Swift folder. I just don't know if I'll be able to get enough reach out of it, and how stable it really rides compared to a full size bike despite the rave comments and reviews.

I'm hesitating between a Montague and a Swift, mainly. I'd prefer the swift: better fold (if bigger), dynohub and fenders possible, 20" inch wheels leave ample space for load carrying even if it's not designed as the best load carrier in itself, workarounds seem easy... If it rides that stable and I can achieve a good posture, it's a winner, but Xootr not being sold in France, I can't try it, so there's a part of risk.

The Montague is the no-risk option: I see no reason it wouldn't be ultra stable and suit my posture as its just a full size bike that happens to fold. But fenders and load carrying has me scratching my head. I'm sure there are ways to mod it to my needs, I'd probably have to go with the 26" MTB as it would leave more room for fenders - and V-brakes are easyer to fit fenders in-between. Now how to make a quick-release front fender is another question! (I mean a real fender, not the clipping piece of plastic that serves no real purpose and flies away with the smallest bump).

Dahon Hash or something similar might still be interesting, though.