Classic & Vintage - Ding dong--deal or no deal?

A frame I am following on eBay has a noticeable (and disclosed) ding in the downtube. For those experienced with dealing with such flaws...how bad is this one? Fixable? Dealbreaker?

Thanks for any thoughts!

looks like more of gouge than a ding.

sure, it's fixable. but how much money are willing to pay a framebuilder to replace at least the DT and repaint the entire frame?

That is a common place for dents to occur, resulting from the side pull brake caliper being smacked into the down tube. Performance will most likely not be effected but it could represent a crash in the bike's past. Look at the rest of the bike, seeking signs of crash damage, or misalignment. Perhaps looking through this article on The Frame and Fork Set (http://www.mytenspeeds.com/My_TenSpeeds_1/FREE_SITE_1/FREE_SITE_11_Frame_Fork_Prep_1.htm) will assist with what to look for.

That said, a dent, regardless of where, will negatively impact the value of the bicycle.

You could ride it like that with no problems. However the photo looks as if the fork might be bent backwards. That ding is probably from a hard hit by a brake caliper. I would be suspicious of a front end crash. Look closely at everything.

^ Actually, Randy, I have to respectfully disagree: the brake caliper smack is the touched up area about 1 1/2" above the dent. I don't quite know how one gets a dent in the frame that near to the gear lever boss.

Are you going to use downtube gear levers? If so, the lever will hide the dent when you're in your smallest freewheel cog :)

I'd pass.

DD

The location looks a little too far to have been made by a caliper. Damaged goods IMO, proceed with caution....

I am going off photos; as I mentioned, the bike is on eBay. In fact it's thousands of miles away.

Fork angle looks okay in photos, but something sure hit that tube pretty hard. Could even have happened in careless transporting, or a fall in a garage. In any case, replacing the DT would be nowhere on the agenda, no way, no how.

You guys are confirming my thoughts...the bike will likely not go for a price that would encourage me to take a chance on it. It's a maker that intrigues my 'gotta be different' character flaw...and it's my size. But that only goes so far.

Thanks!

^ Actually, Randy, I have to respectfully disagree: the brake caliper smack is the touched up area about 1 1/2" above the dent. I don't quite know how one gets a dent in the frame that near to the gear lever boss.

You could well be correct, however; to me the dent looks to be similar to this one, and others that have come my way. None the less, check the bike over carefully...

http://www.mytenspeeds.com/My_TenSpeeds_1/Bicycles_Table/Canadian_Bicycles/Gardin_Bicycles/GardinSpecial_Mine/GardinSpecialCampyShifters_Comment1.jpg

For me it's a deal killer - there are plenty of unmolested and wonderful bikes out there. If you ever want to sell it, the ding is going to make it difficult.

^ Agreed. Plus, there are more Zunows out there just waiting with your name on them ;)

DD

^ Close, DD, but no sigaar.... Actually, not that close either. ;)

Zieleman, I meant :rolleyes:

DD

For future reference, awhile back Chuckk started a "how to" thread about rolling out tubing dents using tube blocks (http://www.paragonmachineworks.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?search=action&category=TB07). His thread is HERE (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/522743-Rolling-Tube-Dents).

Thanks, Scooper! Here (http://chuck.kichline.com/bikes/Framedents/default.htm) is Chuckk's page on that repair, with lots of pics. Food for thought, for sure. I think if I were to go that route, I'd start with a 'curb find' frame too!

1) Functionally or structurally, it is no big deal.

2) It is too low down on the tube to be from the brake caliper - the paint gouge above it is caliper induced damage, though.


For me it's a deal killer - there are plenty of unmolested and wonderful bikes out there. If you ever want to sell it, the ding is going to make it difficult.

3) ^^^ This.

Dings are hard to justify when looking at a frame. Even if they don't effect the performace of the frame, you'll always know it there plus it makes you question what trama caused the ding?

I dunno-- how many $$$$ we talking?

Hmmm, that same frame was on Ebay a couple of weeks ago and it then went pretty high because two bidders were competing for it.

It went for around 900$ if I remember correctly, I wonder why it is back.

The rest of the frame looks pretty minty.

looks like more of gouge than a ding.

sure, it's fixable. but how much money are willing to pay a framebuilder to replace at least the DT and repaint the entire frame?

It is clearly a "ding" and not a paint gouge or scrape. You can see in the pic that the DT has been depressed.

You can fix it and it probably doesn't affect frame strength (unlike the stress wrinkles you can see in TTs and DTs after a front-end crash). But it does look crappy...

For me it's a deal killer - there are plenty of unmolested and wonderful bikes out there. If you ever want to sell it, the ding is going to make it difficult.

Bikes perhaps, but no Zielemans - in case someone is really hunting for that.

I have multiple frames with dents here and there. On most of them I spent substantially less however. I buy on the local market, while this frame is advertised world wide. It is a bit difficult for me to give an advise for this reason. Bummer of the dent, but if you can live with it, you're not near the source, won't sell it in future and you would deparately want a Zieleman: I could imagine someone is considering a purchase, even if it sets him/her back a substantially sum.

I was being cagey with the exact auction but here it is...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/170757332047?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

It is a c. 1980s frame/fork by Dutch builder Ko Zieleman. It's the second to appear on eBay recently and from the same seller. This one, despite the ding which was pictured the same way it is here, did 'sell' for over $900 a few weeks ago, a remarkable price. But now it's back. I have emailed the seller to ask what happened, which seems like a fair if perhaps embarrassing question, but have not received a response.

As Elev12K notes, it's unusual for KZ frames to turn up. I'd say especially unusual for one this small, coming from a land of tall people. So perhaps this is the only chance I'd have at one for a long time. But how much of a compromise could I live with in order to have that bike? If it were a bargain price and I could be 100% sure everything else was fine, that's one thing. To pay top price, it had better be perfect.

ps: long as we are on the subject, both Elev12K and Lotek, Zieleman owners themselves, have been very helpful to me in considering this. Thanks guys!

A slightly descenting opinion regarding the ease of getting that ding out. First, the ding is in the butted end of the tube (or at least it should be as it is between the shifter bosses and the head tube). Thicker tubes don't seem to pop back as easily as thinner ones do. Further, the close proximity to the shifter bosses will like provide more resistance to poping back, and/or possibly pop the shifter boss off.

That said, it does not appear to be structural, and making the paint damage worse in an attempt to reduce the dent does not bother you, it should go fine.

I saw another ding in the right chainstay. More deduction, imo.

Bikes perhaps, but no Zielemans - in case someone is really hunting for that.

I have multiple frames with dents here and there. On most of them I spent substantially less however. I buy on the local market, while this frame is advertised world wide. It is a bit difficult for me to give an advise for this reason. Bummer of the dent, but if you can live with it, you're not near the source, won't sell it in future and you would deparately want a Zieleman: I could imagine someone is considering a purchase, even if it sets him/her back a substantially sum.

I'm not a fan of must haves, grails or particular marquees. There is always another great frame around the corner...sure, it might not be a Zielman, but with so many awesome builders out there that would not discourage me. I'd rather have an unmolested high end bike from another builder...or I'd wait for the "right" Zielman.

+1

That frame's got some really nice attention to detail going on, so it's really too bad about the dent.

I guess if I were to plan on simply riding the snot out of it, the dent wouldn't matter. But we're talking more than that here I see. Didn't know anything much about Z's until I checked into BF in 2010. I know enough now to hold my original stance and say pass and collect a finer example down the road.

BTW, CA - I hope it didn't seem as though I was trying to out the frame in the beginning as that was not my intention :) And from the Z panto it sure looked like Zunow!

DD

I'm not a fan of must haves, grails or particular marquees. There is always another great frame around the corner...sure, it might not be a Zielman, but with so many awesome builders out there that would not discourage me. I'd rather have an unmolested high end bike from another builder...or I'd wait for the "right" Zielman.

I'm with Aaron on this one. Why, you can't sing a....... oh nevermind. :)

Let's just say I've had to make a concerted effort to not look for nice frames/bikes in my size. There are just too many lovely ones in my size popping up unbidden as it is.

I can't feed and care for them all.

ended

Personally I draw 2 conclusions:

1) bad luck for the seller. He really suffered compared to the initial sale.

2) at this price it is for me pretty clear it is a great deal (unless it arrives at your door and it turns to be rusted through everywhere AND is severely damaged in transport)

It would have been a ~$300 gamble to get it to a door in the U.S. Everyone has a different threshold when it comes to rolling the dice, but I would have had to really, REALLY want this particular one to take the shot.

ended

At this price it is for me pretty clear it is a great deal (unless it arrives at your door and it turns to be rusted through everywhere AND is severely damaged in transport)

Agreed - I would've paid that gladly and had an interesting and obscure frameset. Then I'd build it up and not worry about the dent; it's not like one can see it from the saddle :)

DD

Yeah, I may have goofed on this; I expected it to go higher and did not even bid. :(

The seller not answering my query about the previous auction was kind of off-putting though. And as always with an auction, the fact that it went for $188 doesn't mean that I could have bought it for $190 or even $290 or $390.

Oh well. What pops up today on eBay though but another bike from my 'hmm' list: a Bob Jackson frame/fork in my size, which would be a nice companion to the Jackson mixte I built up for my wife. That's as good a reason for a bike as any, I think. :lol:

However...the Jackson apparently has a ding! :eek:

It would have been a ~$300 gamble to get it to a door in the U.S. Everyone has a different threshold when it comes to rolling the dice, but I would have had to really, REALLY want this particular one to take the shot.

Yes. I've seen a lot of stuff on eBay that I'd like to buy from overseas sellers, but I usually pass just because disappointment is more difficult to correct (i.e. returning something as bulky as a bike).

I posted a method of fixing frame dents that I've used a couple of times. This involves drilling a small hole in the tube exactly opposiite to the side of the dent, using a small drift to knock the dent flush, filling the hole with silver brazing rod, and sanding down and refinishing the rough spots left by the repair. It works perfectly for small dents like this one, including dents that are in the thicker portion of butted tubes. Since the dent doesn't really create any significant structural weakness, you could just fill the dent with Bondo or something like that and refinish it.

Looks like fair value to me...and I'd have no faith that I'd be able to sell it for more had I bought it.

1. Frames with dings don't sell for much.
2. It was already a fairly limited market because Zielman is hardly a household name.

because Zielman is hardly a household name.

Exactly! Zieleman on the other hand... :innocent:

Exactly! Zieleman on the other hand... :innocent:

:lol:

I do need to hire a home secretary.

While Zieleman isn't exactly a household name the selling prices have
been steadily going up for the past few years. All those Dutch sellers are dreaming
of big bucks, like the professional seller from Eindhoven who offered me a
fair example for $1000 (without shipping) that he bought the day before off
M'plaats for $50.

Marty (who in this case is extremely biased)

The light blue one with Nuovo Record? He bought it the day before for 50 euro? Now that is a good deal. The Dutch always have had pragmatic relation with their bikes and there was not so much room for a classic bike in the Dutchman's live. The last couple of years though you see something happening. Both on the demand side and the offering side. Fierce competition among interested people and the sellers seem to be more aware they have something special in their hands instead of just an old bike.

Mel,

No this was a few years ago, before I got my silver Zieleman. The 'seller' used to work
with Renaissance Cycles in Eindhoven and was shown the door due to some shaky deals
he was making with customers (and without Baron knowing). He knew I had been looking for
a Zieleman for a while and offered me this yellow Zieleman with absolute crap components.
What he didn't know was I was already watching M'plaats and saw that he bid 50€ for the bike
the day before his $1000 offer to me. He forwarded on the auction pictures claiming he had
cleaned the bike up and just took the photos to send me. Of all the Dutch sellers/collectors I've
dealt with he is the only person who truly tried to take advantage of me in my quest for a
Zieleman. Yes something is happening, we are all talking about Zieleman too much and the
prices are going up up up!

have you checked out that chromed frame on M'plaats? Not sure what it is but it comes
up when I search for Zieleman in title and description...

Marty

Lotek: ...Renaissance Cycles in Eindhoven...

That name's a blast from the past! One of the very first sites I used to visit on the Interwebs (while stationed in London, 1994) and the one I credit with turning me on to vintage collecting/riding. They had some awesome stuff back in the day...

DD

This walking down memory lane is all fine and good but it is NOT helping me find a pristine Zieleman with the nice pantographing, in 52cm, at a reasonable price. :notamused:


Also, my daughter wants a pony.

^ Grumpy :)

DD