Classic & Vintage - Cold setting: If you're not going to do it yourself. . .

Hello, folks. Please excuse me if this has been touched on before. I seem to be sub-awesome at rocking the search. I'm considering having the Mistral I recently bought cold set from 120 to 126. Most of the threads I've found on the subject have at least one LBS horror story. So I ask, how does one determine if the LBS is qualified?

you can check listen how they pronounce the word 'campagnolo'.

most guys at the lbs just say "campy"

6mm should be able to squeeze in, your choice.

As far as finding a good shop, ask them if they have any spare parts for older bikes. When they give you the spiel that any bike older than five years is obsolete (happened to me), turn around and leave.

My own advice would be to not do this.

It is one of those jobs that everyone seems
to think is easily done (why, back in the day...:D)
and most often ****ed up. The major issues
you will encounter are, first, that most shops
just don't like to do this kind of stuff any more,
and two, they don't do it often enough to
appreciate the frame alignment problems you
can induce by bending one side or the other
too much in one direction, i.e. they both need to
spread outboard equally.

Why, exactly do you want to do this?

Look up the string technique for checking frame
alignment, and get some idea of how to check this
yourself. Good luck.

My own advice would be to not do this.

It is one of those jobs that everyone seems
to think is easily done (why, back in the day...:D)
and most often ****ed up. The major issues
you will encounter are, first, that most shops
just don't like to do this kind of stuff any more,
and two, they don't do it often enough to
appreciate the frame alignment problems you
can induce by bending one side or the other
too much in one direction, i.e. they both need to
spread outboard equally.

Why, exactly do you want to do this?

Look up the string technique for checking frame
alignment, and get some idea of how to check this
yourself. Good luck.
Yes, these are my concerns. Frame building is such an art, how can frame stretching be no big deal? Anytime someone says, "Ah no problem," I fear they are just not as persnickety as I would like them to be. :) I actually am not at all certain that I want to do this. I am merely considering it as it would make finding an appropriate wheel setup a bit easier.

Take some time to get a feel for Frame and Fork Preparation (http://www.mytenspeeds.com/My_TenSpeeds_1/FREE_SITE_1/FREE_SITE_11_Frame_Fork_Prep_1.htm).

Then, apply what you have learned and String the Stays (http://www.mytenspeeds.com/My_TenSpeeds_1/Site%20Contents/How_To_Do_It/FrameSetPrep_5_StringingFrameSet.htm). This is how I center the stays (http://www.mytenspeeds.com/My_TenSpeeds_1/Site%20Contents/How_To_Do_It/FrameSetPrep_6_CenteringStays.htm) and all you have to do is apply the same ideas to spreading your stays. There is always a risk of damaging something but if you are careful, it should go OK.

If you can use a tape measure and a lever, you are in good shape. If you are mechanically inclined, you should have no problem. If you don't know how to use a tape measure, you might not want to tackle the task yourself.

http://www.mytenspeeds.com/My_TenSpeeds_1/HowToDoIt/FrameWork/FrameWork_Board_7.jpg

I know this all looks very crude but it does work and I have never had a problem centering the stays. I also never spread stays, preferring to keep my bicycle frame sets as close to original as I possibly can. But that is just me. Lots of folks have no problem with altering a vintage road bicycle frame set.

I've been thinking of doing this myself for cold setting a frame from 120 to 130 mm. Kind of scared about it. Have thought about asking a shop how much they'd charge as I'm assuming I'll have to go to them to get the dropouts aligned anyway, right? Well that and I'm car free and lack a long 2x4, though I've been thinking about attempting buying one at the local home depot and riding it home. Not sure how that'll go. In my case it's a pretty abuse frame that would otherwise not be used. We'll see how it all goes down.

I've been thinking of doing this myself for cold setting a frame from 120 to 130 mm. Kind of scared about it. Have thought about asking a shop how much they'd charge as I'm assuming I'll have to go to them to get the dropouts aligned anyway, right? Well that and I'm car free and lack a long 2x4, though I've been thinking about attempting buying one at the local home depot and riding it home. Not sure how that'll go. In my case it's a pretty abuse frame that would otherwise not be used. We'll see how it all goes down.

NO cold setting here.. I just slide/minor pry it in there. Minor pain doing flats.. but not so bad.

IF.. I had to try a reset on the rear.. I'd set a longish axle in with bolts on the INSIDE of the spacing.. and then turn the bolts out for expansion.. a turn to each side at a time. Loosening tightening would give a feel for how your progressing.

NO cold setting here.. I just slide/minor pry it in there. Minor pain doing flats.. but not so bad.


Aren't you afraid of bending/breaking the axle due to mis-aligned dropouts when you do this? Just curious because I was told that was a risk.

Aren't you afraid of bending/breaking the axle due to mis-aligned dropouts when you do this? Just curious because I was told that was a risk.

It is a risk. I ok with taking reasonable risks and I've never broken an axle.

most lbs's make a go of it by selling new bikes and accessories. the repair dept, in many cases, is a necessity in order to give potential customers the confidence to buy. so i would look up a local frame builder (and you may find some good advice in the "framebuilders forum" if you post there.) to do the work. they have experience in working metal and a deep appreciation for a straight frame. or better yet, i would look into finding a good hub of the proper dimensions.

remember it's the axle that must be of the right dimensions not the hub. spacers can be your friend. you might want to take a hard look at that 120mm hub, if you have one.

Aren't you afraid of bending/breaking the axle due to mis-aligned dropouts when you do this? Just curious because I was told that was a risk.

Well, that all depends on the alignment of the dropouts before the cold setting. Depending how far and which way they were off, it could actual improve the situtaion. However, if they are good to begin with, the cold setting will put them out of alignment. That will impose a bending stress on the axle. It certainly makes the axle more prone to bending and possibly breaking. The biggest risk will be with a cheap, carbon steel, freewheel axle. The least risk will be with a CrMo, freehub axle.

But back to the OP's orignal question. You can always ask the LBS for references and check them out. The other big confidence booster would be seeing a full set of Park (or other) alignment tools in the shop. Or you can just take it to the closest framebuilder, who has probably cold set just about every frame that he has built.

Yes, these are my concerns. Frame building is such an art, how can frame stretching be no big deal?
Anytime someone says, "Ah no problem," I fear they are just not as persnickety as I would like them to be. :)
I actually am not at all certain that I want to do this.

I am merely considering it as it would make finding an appropriate wheel setup a bit easier.

If this is your main reason, better off to work on the hub/wheel.

Much of what you find in 126 can be modified down to 120mm
pretty easily, although depending on how you work the axle
spacing issues, you may have to take some time to redish the
wheel. This is mostly what I do, and I have access to a whole
shop and a garage full of tools, so if I really wanted to cold
set a frame, I could probably do so.

I guess if you can find a shop to do this, it would be quicker
than the wheel modifications, thus cheaper. But if it were me,
I'd work the wheel angle.:thumb:

But back to the OP's orignal question. You can always ask the LBS for references and check them out. The other big confidence booster would be seeing a full set of Park (or other) alignment tools in the shop. Or you can just take it to the closest framebuilder, who has probably cold set just about every frame that he has built.

There is a conspicuous lack of blue handled tools in our frame shop and most new frames need a little tweak although if you are building things right you are looking at changes of around 1mm to get things just right and not 5mm plus.

Bigger changes in spacing warrant hot setting to reduce stresses to the stays and we have re-spaced a lot of older tandems in this way to accommodate wider hubs... they tend to be far too stiff for cold setting.

With that being said, cold setting a frame to increase spacing is not a big deal if you know what you are doing and a good shop will cold set and then re-align the dropouts.

Aren't you afraid of bending/breaking the axle due to mis-aligned dropouts when you do this? Just curious because I was told that was a risk.

Mine is moving out 6mm.. or .24". Around 3000+ this way.. no problems.

One lbs guy quacked about the same thing... risk etc. But going to 126 meant no bike sale there......

I just grab the dropouts and pull apart, measure, pull, measure. Then check center with my alignment tool and adjust as required. Then square up the dropouts and align the dropout hanger.

No big deal, really, if you have the tools. Actually, measuring and string work fine too. Any upright primate could do it.

I just grab the dropouts and pull apart, measure, pull, measure. Then check center with my alignment tool and adjust as required. Then square up the dropouts and align the dropout hanger.

No big deal, really, if you have the tools. Actually, measuring and string work fine too. Any upright primate could do it. And probably more than a few hunched over primates... :lol:

I just grab the dropouts and pull apart, measure, pull, measure. Then check center with my alignment tool and adjust as required. Then square up the dropouts and align the dropout hanger.

No big deal, really, if you have the tools. Actually, measuring and string work fine too. Any upright primate could do it.

Do you have a special tool for checking alignment? I'd imagine those are pretty pricey, no? I'd thought I'd have the lbs do the dropout alignment as I doubt I could justify that cost for one time.

Do painters do this stuff? If you would prefer to leave the stays and just encounter difficulty every wheel change, you could align the dropouts for the wider size. I want to know if painters do this because I have to do work on curved blade forks which can get complicated.

Himespau, since we are lucky enough to have such a resource, why not take your bare frame to Harris Cyclery in West Newton. They are entusiastic about older quality frames and making them usable with newer componentry. Since you are car free, I could help you get the frame to Harris if you need to. PM me if you are interested

most lbs's make a go of it by selling new bikes and accessories. the repair dept, in many cases, is a necessity in order to give potential customers the confidence to buy. so i would look up a local frame builder (and you may find some good advice in the "framebuilders forum" if you post there.) to do the work. they have experience in working metal and a deep appreciation for a straight frame. or better yet, i would look into finding a good hub of the proper dimensions.

remember it's the axle that must be of the right dimensions not the hub. spacers can be your friend. you might want to take a hard look at that 120mm hub, if you have one.

I had my 1967 Carlton (http://www.flickr.com/photos/threefamilyalbum/sets/72157627680798239/) coldset recently by a local framebuilder. He spread the rear drops from 120mm to 132.5mm, spread the fork from 90mm to 100mm, realigned a slightly tweaked fork, and aligned the frame, all for a mere $50. For me at least, it is worth every penny to leave it with someone that can do the stuff properly so I can worry with other details on the bike instead.

I've had success spreading from 120 to 126 and 126 to 130 using parts from my local ace hardware: a 10" piece of all thread with a mark at center, four nuts, four flat washers and four thick plastic washers. Thread two sets of nut-flat washer-nylon washer into the center portion of the all thread with the plastic washers facing outboard and slip the works fully into the drops, snugging the plastic washers up against the inner face of the dropouts, and reverse the stack order so you've got another set threaded snugged up against the outer face of the dropouts and you're ready to go and it's a lot easier to cart home on your bike than a 2x4. I just eyeball the center mark on the all thread to center between the drops and loosen the outboard nuts a few mm equally and tighten up the inboard sets a half turn or so at a time alternating sides until they're snugged up against the outboard sets and let it rest a bit before I move the outboards a few more mm and repeat the process. You'd be surprised how far you can spread the drops to gain just a mm or two.

If the frame was priceless I would have it professionally tracked and aligned by an experienced frame builder.

I'm with 23skidoo

I even show you how.

It's easy. (http://seenonthetrain.blogspot.com/2011/11/cold-setting-bicycle-frame.html?m=0)

I'm with 23skidoo

I even show you how.

It's easy. (http://seenonthetrain.blogspot.com/2011/11/cold-setting-bicycle-frame.html?m=0)
Ooh, jazzy! Thanks! I particularly like the part about how the reader probably shouldn't do it based on your advice- LOL. Which means I probably will, at least if I can't find a workable wheel situation.

I'm with 23skidoo

I even show you how.

It's easy. (http://seenonthetrain.blogspot.com/2011/11/cold-setting-bicycle-frame.html?m=0)

A picture is worth a thousand words...

I just grab the dropouts and pull apart, measure, pull, measure. Then check center with my alignment tool and adjust as required. Then square up the dropouts and align the dropout hanger.

No big deal, really, if you have the tools. Actually, measuring and string work fine too. Any upright primate could do it.

+1. Piece of cake.

Keep in mind that every steel frame built by every builder has been cold set. Every one. Any builder that says they didnt either got lucky on a single frameset or is lying.

I just grab the dropouts and pull apart, measure, pull, measure. Then check center with my alignment tool and adjust as required. Then square up the dropouts and align the dropout hanger....

I mount the frame in a bench vise at the bb with wood planks and move each stay independently. If I have to change from 120mm to 132.5 I move each stay 6mm then set the alignment of the dropouts. I learned this method when I worked for a frame builder back in the 70s/80s. All steel frames get final alignment set this way.

This is all really helpful guys, thanks!

6mm should be able to squeeze in, your choice.

As far as finding a good shop, ask them if they have any spare parts for older bikes. When they give you the spiel that any bike older than five years is obsolete (happened to me), turn around and leave.

Great point. I stopped in a shop last year to buy some tubes. While I was there, I was perusing the newer bikes. The shop featured Specialized. I was looking at a Specialized Allez and it happened to be a 9 speed drivetrain.

A young man came over and asked if I needed help and almost before I could tell him what I was actually there for he began reciting a canned spiel about how 9 speed is now obsolete and his shop is only recommending that people go with 10 speed. I didn't have the heart to ask him how he was going to sell the 9 speed bike with that attitude.

I also didn't have the heart to tell him that I have a bike from the early '70s, maybe older than his parents, and I'm still able to find parts! Geesh!

If you are nervous about cold setting a rear triangle a handful of millimeters wider, think about how curved forkblades get that curve.

Happy to help. That article gets a lot of hits.

Happy to help. That article gets a lot of hits.

Thanks, I really think I might give that a try. Looks like your method keeps the dropouts in alignment too.

Of course, now I see that the Sturmey Archer s80 comes in a 120. Wonder if those things are still wimpy? Can't find a recent review. Another thread maybe soon. . .

Anyway- helpful article, custer. Thanks!

I mount the frame in a bench vise at the bb with wood planks and move each stay independently. If I have to change from 120mm to 132.5 I move each stay 6mm then set the alignment of the dropouts.
Any tips on setting the dropout alignment without special tools?

Any tips on setting the dropout alignment without special tools?

I can't imagine how to do it without a set of dropout alignment tools. Anything over about 5mm re-set total (2.5mm per side) and the dropouts need re-alignment. I bought a set of Park dropout alignment tools for < $90 shipped.

Himespau, since we are lucky enough to have such a resource, why not take your bare frame to Harris Cyclery in West Newton. They are entusiastic about older quality frames and making them usable with newer componentry. Since you are car free, I could help you get the frame to Harris if you need to. PM me if you are interested


Thanks for the offer. I've been thinking about heading over there some time. Not sure how long of a ride it would be, but I need a couple of odds and ends (dropout adaptor claws, bb accordion thingy) that I could pick up at my lbs, but I figured if I make it over there I could buy from them as a thanks for all the reading of Sheldon's site I've done. I think I'll give custermustache's method a try though as I'm the sort that likes to do as much as possible myself even though it takes 3x as long that way.

If you are nervous about cold setting a rear triangle a handful of millimeters wider, think about how curved forkblades get that curve.

2:10 for the fork blades
3:15 for the.....main frame alignment?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0pUiy_TLk8

=Z0pUiy_TLk8

Any tips on setting the dropout alignment without special tools?

If you follow custermustache's method, can you just put a couple of extra washers on the other side of the dropout and then tighten nuts out there until the dropout is flush with the allthread? I ask because I have no idea whether it'd work or not.

Any tips on setting the dropout alignment without special tools?

I take the frame into my lbs along with a rear wheel and my ace wrencher takes about five minutes to align the dropouts and the der hanger for $10 or often as not, a 'catch you later when you've got some real work'. I see the der adjusting tool on CL for sale more than the DO adjusters.

Nothing to be frightened of here, Folks!

Firstly, a 126mm OLN hub set up should squeeze right into the120mm rear of a Holdsworth Mistral with only a little flexing of the stays and no great drama. Even better if you can slim down the axle spacers a bit to help (thinner lock nuts, washers etc).

Cold setting to widen or reduce the clearance between the rear stays of a bike frame is far from difficult, in fact probably TOO easy - it doesn't take much pressure at all to make a large difference. I've done it two ways, with a 4X2 timber and with a piece of all thread and washers and both work fine, if anything the timber is quicker, more effective and easier to control - but that's only my experience. Both ways work - to widen or to reduce the clearance.

The important thing is to check the frame with string before starting - you'd be surprised how many frames are already 1mm out on one side or the other before you touch them! This can be taken into account and therefore corrected when making the alteration. Go slowly and measure frequently to ensure the drop outs are positioned an equal distance from the frame centre line.

Once the desired measurement is achieved (on some frames it's necessary to go beyond the exact measurement as the tubes spring back a little when released), always check the drop out alignment to ensure both slots are parallel with the centre line. The Park tool for this is a little expensive for something that's rarely used by amateurs. I improvise this by using two solid rear spindles, bolted into the drop out slots so that the ends of the spindles meet at the centre line between the drop outs. Each is held in place with two nuts and two washers as per Custermustache's threaded bar.

By placing an axle cone on the 'inside end' of each with the thick end facing the other spindle, it's easy to see if the gap between these cones is even. If not, it's clear which drop out needs to be realigned and in which direction. By placing a tube on the outside end of that spindle (outside the drop out) and applying pressure, the errant cone can be observed to line up properly. Job done!

http://timmcgivern.wordpress.com/2008/09/24/home-made-bicycle-tools/

Scroll down to the bottom of the page for some home made dropout alignment tools. I don't know how sturdy the eye bolts would be though. I'm all for having my shop align the dropouts then checking the dérailleur hanger at the same time.. Probably the easiest repair of the day.

http://timmcgivern.wordpress.com/2008/09/24/home-made-bicycle-tools/

Scroll down to the bottom of the page for some home made dropout alignment tools. I don't know how sturdy the eye bolts would be though. I'm all for having my shop align the dropouts then checking the dérailleur hanger at the same time.. Probably the easiest repair of the day.

Hey, thanks for that link - Good idea to use copper for a head set cup remover!

Does all thread only come in one diameter? If not, what diameter do you use?

One of my bikes uses a wider wheel than intended, and I haven't cold set it. Another bike of mine has been cold set. It's not a big decision. If, by squeezing a wide wheel in or by cold setting inaccurately, your stays are not perfectly centered, it doesn't really matter. You won't feel it.

It does come in different diameters, use either 5/16 or 3/8 diameter

All these years I've been putting 126mm 6 and 7 speed upgrades into old 120mm 5-speed frames and spreading the frame apart with my thumbs.. Hmm? For some reason I always thought it was no big deal to open the thing 3mm on each side.. Oh, my poor Paramounts! Oh my poor Super LeTour.. Yiikes! I learn something every day..
This week I'm going to quiz two famous frame builders and a couple of unbiased pro mechanics I know. Just to hear what they have to say.
This has been an interesting read, I can't wait to see how it ends. :)

Hey, thanks for that link - Good idea to use copper for a head set cup remover!

Use steel electrical conduit in the appropriate diameter......lasts longer.

Can anyone help me? I have a Scania frame that somebody bent the rear triangle to fit 6-speed, and I'm told that the bike is worth more with the original 5-speed freewheel, and cottered steel cranks. What is the best method for bending the stays back to the 120mm axle? Right now it looks like a Serotta back there.

Sooo, the result of all this hand wringing is. . . I just had a lightbulb go off in my pea brain. I grabbed my tape measure, ran downstairs to the frame, and- wait for it- the damned thing has ALREADY BEEN COLD SET!!! Genius, I am.