General Cycling Discussion - Vegan Bikes?

I'm not personally vegan (can't give up chicken and I hate vegetables like a 5 year old) although I support those who are. I was wondering, has the issue of Brooks saddles ever come up in vegan/biker circles? Would you forego the masterful craftsmanship (so I'm told) of a really nice saddle because it's leather? I was looking into investing in a Brooks saddle and this thought occured to me. And for that matter, what about leather toe-clip straps?

Any thoughts on the matter?

not a vegan myself but know many (and serious riders, at that) who forego the leather saddles and straps for their philosophies.

Would you forego the masterful craftsmanship (so I'm told) of a really nice saddle because it's leather?

yes

I'm a really bad vegan. In fact, I'm not really a vegan. I got the Brooks. I feel the issue with saddles is much like the issue of shoes, for me. i could get the non leather product, but it's not going to last nearly as long as the leather one. Then I'm buying too much crap that is just going to end up in the land fill. That's not good. Grrr. Too much to think about. World makes my left wing head hurt.

I am vegetarian and most times vegan. I dont buy the Brooks because of the leather, same with the toe straps. Its one of those things where, if the leather saddle is already on the bike, then I probably wont have a problem with it, but I wouldnt go off and buy one.

Yes, its been discussed before
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=66529
I agree its a quandry, the brooks last forever, uses no petrochemicals
but flies in the face of vegan philosophy.

Marty

such a difficult issue beyond leather straps and saddles, because something was bound to have been made using some process or chemical that is extracted using animal byproducts or manufactured somewhere that has ties to a company which supported by a another company that uses animal byproducts. Where do you draw the line?

Ahimsa saddles.
The new "hip" - straight from the bodies of dead cows floating down the Ganges. Get yours now...operators are standing by.

I'm not a vegan, but I try to avoid animal based products. I do use an old Brooks B15, however, that was given to me by someone who gave up road cycling. I figured since an animal gave up its life, at least it won't be in vain. I would never buy a new one though.

oops, sorry to repost it. Thanks lotek. It's not anything I planned on researching, just a passing thought.

How about this- do vegans covet Brooks saddles? Are they THAT great that they make you want it, even though you know you wouldn't defy your beliefs?

oops, sorry to repost it. Thanks lotek. It's not anything I planned on researching, just a passing thought.

How about this- do vegans covet Brooks saddles? Are they THAT great that they make you want it, even though you know you wouldn't defy your beliefs?

i think they're ugly, and even though i've heard they're comfortable, i would choose not to get one because it's leather. simple.

to each their own.

i'm vegan, and i wouldn't buy one new. i might consider a used one if someone gave it to me, but since there are plenty of non-leather, comfy, stylie saddles out there, what's the point.
as for straps, i got both my sets of track pedals used, and they came with leather straps.
i left them on and will replace them with synthetic ones when they wear out.

I still want to know what a Nauga is

I still want to know what a Nauga is

Plastic deer that roam the refineries of New Jersey.

i wouldnt buy one; in fact, i ride a bike sometimes instead of sitting in friends' cars with leather seats.

depends on the vegan.

i'm a vegan who realizes that a piece of leather that will last 50 years makes more sense than a piece of petrochemical that will last 3 years. of course, i'm an ascetic vegan, not an animal rights vegan, so simplicity takes priority over nitpickery for me.

and to anyone who thinks that the above statements make me NOT vegan...FU!

Sorry vegans, Nauga's are animals! :)

http://www.naugahyde.com/history.html

Liking Kevin Sorbo makes you not a vegan.

I'm vegetarian. I have a Brooks saddle. That's my own choice.

i wouldnt buy one; in fact, i ride a bike sometimes instead of sitting in friends' cars with leather seats.

I'm a level 5 vegan. I only eat things that don't cast a shadow.

I don't really understand the question. it's like asking a vegan if they would really give up eating a good steak. I mean, a good steak tastes way better than any TVP fake meat...
I'm vegan. that means I don't buy leather...period. Just because leather saddles and shoes are more practical or lasts longer than synthetic, thats not a reason to kill something for them. (and I think we've already gone into how the leather tanning process prevents the natural breakdown of leather and uses many extremely toxic chemicals)
To all the meat-eaters: would you buy a saddle made of human skin if it was found to be more comfortable and last longer than a brooks?
I know some will think that that is a false analogy, but I look at killing another animal the same way I look at killing humans. It is just wrong. especially for something as stupid as a comfortable saddle on your bike.
so for all you brooks fans, why not go out a buy a fur lined cycling jacket for the winter? fur insulates way better and lasts longer than all that synthetic polyfill crap and is way more comfortable than wool.
(in case you're going to call me on it, I don't buy wool either)

tim

This post is going the way of the SXE (straight edge post), lifestyle choices need only be justified to ourselves.

I wasn't attempting to preach my lifestyle, I was simply making my argument against the type of logic used in previous posts to justify the superiority of leather saddles.

tim

guh. i can't stand touchy-feely vegans. what happened to all of the sensible vegans?

lousy wife-swap types. if its about being sustainable, then i'm right. buy the leather if you're going to use it well. wear the wool if you're going to use it every day.

if you're going to be identified by what you buy (and you are) then you need to consider, is buying a hand-made leather saddle that will likely be the last one i ever buy a better choice? or should i go with the mass-produced, mold-constructed, plastic piece of crap that i'll have to replace in a year or two?

i'm going to stop now, before i really get rolling.

guh. i can't stand touchy-feely vegans. what happened to all of the sensible vegans?

lousy wife-swap types. if its about being sustainable, then i'm right. buy the leather if you're going to use it well. wear the wool if you're going to use it every day.

if you're going to be identified by what you buy (and you are) then you need to consider, is buying a hand-made leather saddle that will likely be the last one i ever buy a better choice? or should i go with the mass-produced, mold-constructed, plastic piece of crap that i'll have to replace in a year or two?

i'm going to stop now, before i really get rolling.

i want some of whatever you are rolling! :p

yeah, it may be the last saddle I ever buy, but that doesn't change the fact that I had to slaughter an animal who very much enjoyed having that saddle as part of it's skin.

enough with the "killing animals is so much easier than not killing animals" argument. vegans understand it. we know that by choosing not to kill animals, we are making life a little bit harder for ourselves while we live in this society. If doing the easy thing was always assumed to be the correct way, we'd still be burning coal without filters and cars would not only not have seat belts, but they'd still be getting 10 mpg and burning leaded fuel. It's easy to go along with what the dominant voices in society tell you. its harder to do what you think is right.

ever stop to think that if we put as much money and effort into finding an alternative as we do into producing leather,we might have something much better by now?

tim

I'm a level 5 vegan. I only eat things that don't cast a shadow.

ha HA sf. fU.

to be honest, riding my bike instead is probably more due to me thinking "hey! i like riding my bike!" but i do tend to avoid rides in leathered cars and sitting on leather couches.

having said that, i just realised that my the saddle on my latest fixie might indeed be leather. crap. too bad i'm too po' to get another one.

sf, you made me realise i make a really bad vegan. i'ma go drown myself in mincemeat pie now.

To all the meat-eaters: would you buy a saddle made of human skin if it was found to be more comfortable and last longer than a brooks?


only if it looked cool

would you buy a saddle made of human skin if it was found to be more comfortable and last longer than a brooks?


How about a wallet?

www.weirdnj.com

look under the section Local Heros & Villians - Wallet Man

To play devil's advocate (after all, I do have retractable horns), in the strictest sense, aren't plastic based saddles non-vegan? I mean, they are made from a petroleum base product (fossil fuel) which comes from decomposing plants and animals.

To play devil's advocate (after all, I do have retractable horns), in the strictest sense, aren't plastic based saddles non-vegan? I mean, they are made from a petroleum base product (fossil fuel) which comes from decomposing plants and animals.

My point exactly! Where do you draw the line!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How can you know everything, too many options too many possibilities,

Breathing?

but our use of fossil fuels does not affect those dead animals whose fossils have been turned to crude. i'm vegetarian, not vegan, but doesn't that fact have something to do with it?

[edit: nevermind. this won't work because you could apply it back to the original, used leather saddle. ]

..

Meatetarians unite!

oil is made from animals (and plants) that died on their own. being vegan, from an ethical stance, involves not using any animal parts that were taken without consent. non-human animals can't give consent b/c we can't communicate well enough with them to make sure that is what they intend, so vegans don't use products taken from non-human animals. (Humans, by the way, can give consent. so cannibalism can be vegan if the person being killed is ok with it.)
I know certain vegans don't agree with this. It is just my point of view and that of the books that I have read.

tim

OK, I didn;t mean for this to get out of hand here. How about we just stop here. I was simply trying to see people's thoughts on this. TimArchy, obviously, you have a valid point, vegan=no animal products- including bike parts. However, there are obviously people who look at this from a different perspective (ink1373) and that's what I wanted to hear, people's perspectives on the pro's and con's of brooks saddle from a vegan angle. I also know that people's personal interpretations of vegansim vary (the how far do you take it argument) and so I was hoping for a level discourse on the matter.

But, i didn't want people to start flaming and before this goes any farther, let's just call it here. I got some perspective on the matter and I'm satisfied.

Thanks for all your comments and happy riding!

ok...I just re-read that and it didn't say what I wanted it to.

Humans played no part in killing the animals that make up oil, so oil is vegan. (according to a purely ethical stance)

tim

My point exactly! Where do you draw the line!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

it's a personal choice, obviously. no reason to get all flabbergasted.

Some people have developed a certain amount of compassion and concern for animals that leads them to behave accordingly; most have not.

[retracting statements in the hopes that this thread will die]...

this was fun. we'll have to do it again sometime.

tim

haha.

so, are there any vegan leather conditioning creams out there? my brooks is getting dry.

i'm straight edge, bucko. or did we all forget that fiasco already?

i'm smoking a big fat joint of REALITY!

i was kidding, based on the fiasco!

and

when i said "My point exactly" i was refering to the fact that this is all based on personal choice!

This is exactly, i mean exactly, like the straight edge post!

I like fixed gear bikes and this is foo speak!

oil is made from animals (and plants) that died on their own. being vegan, from an ethical stance, involves not using any animal parts that were taken without consent.
timSerious question: what about honey? I was under the impression Vegan's don't eat this. But, it's not an animal part and you could certainly get some honey from a hive without ever touching a bee.


(Humans, by the way, can give consent. so cannibalism can be vegan if the person being killed is ok with it.)Now that's a new one! :eek:

One could certainly argue that almost every modern material causes harm to animals (and humans) during production - steel, rubber, even cotton when we are talking mass production.

And BTW to any vegan on the thread: my questions are mostly just thought exercises, not intended to put down your lifestyle or insult it. To each their own I say.

ok...I just re-read that and it didn't say what I wanted it to.

Humans played no part in killing the animals that make up oil, so oil is vegan. (according to a purely ethical stance)

tim

Not attacking your ethics. You ride a bike. I ride a bike. Just curious.
But doesn't the use of petrolium based synthetics, thru drilling, transporting, refining, and polymerizing kill just as many if not more organisms than agriculture? i.e. Leather = directly killing cows. Plastic = oil spills, contaminated land, polluted air/water, all of which indirectly kills a lot of animals, plants, lichens, fungi (some fungi are classified as animals, just to warn you) etc. on a very big scale. It may be a lesser of evils thing, but I'm suprised that supporting oil use is the lesser evil. I'd think pushing for more humane/enviromentally friendly agriculture practices would be a more realistic goal compaired to using 100% synthetic product.
But like I said, nothing personal. Do what you do.

Serious question: what about honey? I was under the impression Vegan's don't eat this. But, it's not an animal part and you could certainly get some honey from a hive without ever touching a bee.


I'm not a vegan, but my guess would be that honey is like milk- your taking away the food of a calf, or in this case larva. But bee's aren't 'animals', so I dunno. Hey, is silk strict vegan friendly?

I still want to know what a Nauga is

Pleather, as usually found on a Members Only jacket.

PERSONAL CHOICE.

as a vegan myself, who sometimes makes allowances for items found at thrift stores, etc., i was pleased a few years back when overhearing a local activist (himself vegan) telling a group of animal rights activists (his friends, i believe) that they had their heads too far up the animal's asses to see anything else that is going on in the world.

i believe he was referring to the zapatista uprising at the time, but really, couldn't it apply here to the discussion of fossil fuels, etc.?

for me it comes down to seriously weighing the issues, doing what i think is right based on what i think i know, and trying. that involves a lot of failing, regret, etc., but at least i'm making an effort.

my guess is that most of us are doing that or we wouldn't be on this board.

I'm not a vegan, but my guess would be that honey is like milk- your taking away the food of a calf, or in this case larva. But bee's aren't 'animals', so I dunno. Hey, is silk strict vegan friendly?

Bees, and all insects for that matter, are animals... Do you mean mammals?

I'm a level 5 vegan. I only eat things that don't cast a shadow.

So, what do you eat? Air? Every plant and animal in the world on land and sea will cast a shadow. I am honestly curious what you mean by this.

Now for the smart a$$ question. How is killing a plant any less offensive than killing an animal? They are no less alive than an animal and are even more defenseless.