Classic & Vintage - Pardon my blasphemy, but I really don't like down tube shifters.

Just before winter I picked up a good deal on a vintage Kuwahara Titan. The bike is nice and fits me well, but I cannot nor do I enjoy the down tube shifting. Up to this point I have just flipped vintage road bikes, this one was finally my size and so I kept it.

However I am wondering if I should just sell it and get something more modern or maybe convert the shifting? This seems wrong to me though, I think I would rather keep it original.

It actually has indexed shifting already but I can't get used to bending over and shifting, even on a trainer it's annoying. My shifting is very slow and non-intuitive. Main problem is finding the gears and remembering which way to shift on the fly, it's just kind of sluggish.

You think I should just stick with it and get better with practice?

Riding a bike should be fun. If you don't like it, change it. Bar ends might be a good choice, although most of the vintage ones are friction. How many gears/what kind of RD/are you adamant about keeping it indexed?

I say, keep it original either way. If you can practice, get used to it, maybe even end up enjoying it, than keep it and ride it. If you just can't live with the DT shifters, than I think you should sell it and find yourself something more modern to ride.

If you don't like using downtube, why beat your head against the wall trying to get better at it? Since I got a bike with modern bits I never looked back to the old stuff.
I still have bikes with original parts, eg 78 Schwinn Paramount, but I don't ride them regularly.

Convert the bike to either barends or brifters. If you're concerned about keeping it original, just hold on to the original parts so you can throw them back on if you want.

How much have you ridden it? When I got my first dt shifter bike, I switched it to bar end. On another I left as dt shifter, and got used to it after riding a few hundred miles on it.

It becomes intuitive. Give it time.

Downtube shifters are great. People having been using them, and still are(me and many others on here included)for years. Try giving them time and get use to them. If not just buy you two shifter bosses and put you some bar ends or something up top.

Honestly you get use to them.

Look into retroshift (http://retroshift.com/) or Kelly Take-offs (http://kellybike.com/2nd_xtra_takeoff.html). Those will let you use the same indexed levers at a more natural feeling (to me at least) position. Of course, they'll run you $50-100 plus new cables/bar tape. Or just pass the bike along. No need to fight with something you don't like.

How many speeds are we dealing with here ?

Nothing wrong with hating on DT shifters. Brifters are defintely a technological improvement. Don't think it makes sense to upgrade given the bike. Give yourself some time to practice and figure it out. If you don't like it, move on.

Plenty of options. I always keep one DT-shifted bike around.
I train/teach newbies on the road, and they often have them as their entry-level bike.
When we go out, I make sure I'm on the same type of bike, so when I ride with them, it's easier to relate.

..... just stick with it and get better with practice...

+1

Doesn't VO sell adaptors to move DT shifters to the end of handlebars to become bar end shifters?? At least, using that, you can maybe minimize the costs and retain the indexed shifting sytem already on your bike.

Chombi

Riding a bike should be fun. If you don't like it, change it. Bar ends might be a good choice, although most of the vintage ones are friction. How many gears/what kind of RD/are you adamant about keeping it indexed?

+1. Friction bar-end shifters (I prefer SunTour Bar-Cons), when mated to a modern ramped freehweel, results in very smooth shifting. I have 5 bikes right now. One is an English 3-speed, one is an old Varsity with stem shifters, one is a single speed, and the other two I went out of my way to convert to bar-end shifters. Short of going to a modern brifter, I think bar-end shifters are my favorite.

I'm okay with indexed DT shifting. I actually like it, but it is a little less than intuitive to me since I have multiple bikes I ride. The bike I had that had indexed DT shifters I traded for a bike that had friction DT shifters. I didn't feel like I could shift precisely enough so that's one of the bikes that has the Bar-Cons now.

And if you go with Suntour Bar-Cons, you can keep your C&V cred. ;)

It becomes intuitive. Give it time.

+1

Don't forget people raced with those things for many, many years. If you get good at using them you can become surprisingly efficient and fast. If your position on the bike isn't very aggressive I guess it might be difficult to reach them.

Ride them for a month and see if you like it. Don't feel pressured into keeping them on there, it is your bike. Just keep them on hand in case you want to restore the bike/sell it in the future.

Saying "get use to them" is the wrong idea here. If you know it's not going to give you as much enjoyment as another system would, even if you have adapted, why would you keep it on there?

It becomes intuitive. Give it time.


+1

-1

For some people, it never feels natural.

As a lot of the others have said, give it time.

Apart from the obvious cost savings of keeping
your bicycle as is, there are some simplicity, longevity,
and mechanical dependability issues that you might not
yet fully appreciate, wherein DT shifters are superior
in many respects to your alternatives.

At least that's my feeling on the issue.

Ride them for a month and see if you like it. Don't feel pressured into keeping them on there, it is your bike. Just keep them on hand in case you want to restore the bike/sell it in the future.

I concur. I didn't like them at first, but I came to appreciate them. But if I didn't, I'd switch to bar ends in a heartbeat. Whatever makes the bike a good ride.

Saying "get use to them" is the wrong idea here. If you know it's not going to give you as much enjoyment as another system would, even if you have adapted, why would you keep it on there?

Because he would, "rather keep it original". There are other enjoyments to riding/owning a bike than just the function of riding.

Doesn't VO sell adaptors to move DT shifters to the end of handlebars to become bar end shifters?? At least, using that, you can maybe minimize the costs and retain the indexed shifting sytem already on your bike.

Chombi

Sure do, converted a bike to bar ends using them recently.

Am I the only one who finds it odd that a person was flipping bikes but cannot remember which way to shift? I mean really, that's like buying a nuke from a used car salesman.

I don't know how old the OP is, but it's easy to forget there's a whole generation of cyclists who've never used DT shifters, indexed or friction. I guess it's like playing a fretless instrument in tune! Just practice.

I've tried bikes with brifters, and of those, preferred the SRAM, but they are all far less intuitive than a DT shifter. Push it all the way forward, top gear, pull it all the way back, bottom. With 5 gears in between it's not at all hard to find the one I want. Sometimes I look just to be sure, but it beats tap-tap- woops, wrong way tap-tap-tap.

Because he would, "rather keep it original". There are other enjoyments to riding/owning a bike than just the function of riding.

With the caveat of "but I cannot nor do I enjoy the down tube shifting" and "It actually has indexed shifting already but I can't get used to bending over and shifting, even on a trainer it's annoying".

Yes, there are other enjoyments, but those are enjoyments have priorities. And obviously, riding is the OP's priority here.

You'll eventually get used to which way to shift.

I'm going through the oposite transition. I ran Campy Ergos with thumb button for a couple years in the late 90s but otherwise all DT, thumbshifter and gripshift.

Now learning RSX 7-sp Sti.

Sunday I shifted the wrong way a couple of times and had to think which way to shift a lot. Yesterday morning I reached for nonexistant DT shifter once and shifted FD wrong way one (it's a triple).

A few more rides and I'll have it I'm sure.

I have a feeling I'll start looking for some 7-sp STI for my Pinarello any day now - that's some serious blasphemy!

You'll eventually get used to which way to shift.

I'm going through the oposite transition. I ran Campy Ergos with thumb button for a couple years in the late 90s but otherwise all DT, thumbshifter and gripshift.

Now learning RSX 7-sp Sti.

Sunday I shifted the wrong way a couple of times and had to think which way to shift a lot. Yesterday morning I reached for nonexistant DT shifter once and shifted FD wrong way one (it's a triple).

A few more rides and I'll have it I'm sure.

I have a feeling I'll start looking for some 7-sp STI for my Pinarello any day now - that's some serious blasphemy!

This happens to me all the time. Commuter has a downtube friction, long distance bike has bar ends, roadie has ergos, another bike has STIs. The most confusing for me is alternating between non-Sora STI and Ergos.

I don't know how old the OP is, but it's easy to forget there's a whole generation of cyclists who've never used DT shifters, indexed or friction. I guess it's like playing a fretless instrument in tune! Just practice.

I've tried bikes with brifters, and of those, preferred the SRAM, but they are all far less intuitive than a DT shifter. Push it all the way forward, top gear, pull it all the way back, bottom. With 5 gears in between it's not at all hard to find the one I want. Sometimes I look just to be sure, but it beats tap-tap- woops, wrong way tap-tap-tap.

That's a very good analogy.

Just before winter I picked up a good deal on a vintage Kuwahara Titan. The bike is nice and fits me well, but I cannot nor do I enjoy the down tube shifting. Up to this point I have just flipped vintage road bikes, this one was finally my size and so I kept it.

However I am wondering if I should just sell it and get something more modern or maybe convert the shifting? This seems wrong to me though, I think I would rather keep it original.

It actually has indexed shifting already but I can't get used to bending over and shifting, even on a trainer it's annoying. My shifting is very slow and non-intuitive. Main problem is finding the gears and remembering which way to shift on the fly, it's just kind of sluggish.

You think I should just stick with it and get better with practice?

I'm in the same boat. I would LOVE to be able to afford some nice high-end Campagnolo Ergos! But, since I'm super poor, friction is the only alternative. C'est la Vie...

It actually has indexed shifting already but I can't get used to bending over and shifting, even on a trainer it's annoying.

Unless you have T-Rex arms or are riding too small a bike with a Technomic @ min. insertion line then it shouldn't require bending over. DT shifter reach is easier than a water bottle reach.

I'm finding that DT shifters are not as bad or as inconvenient as I have made them out to be in my own mind.

I started riding with upright bars, using thumbshifters- I didn't need to take my hands off the bars. I didn't like that flat bars left me with so few hand positions- especially over 10 miles or so, so I tried drop bars and I like riding between the flats and the hoods- and in the drops into the wind (but rarely in the drops). I've explored different ways of shifting and right now I'm actually torn between Command Shifters and downtube shifters.

You have to be comfortable and confident enough with doing it- I'm still learning.

When I bought my first old road bike three years ago, the first thing I did was replace the drop bar and DT shifters with a flat bar and Alivio ATB brifters. I still like that combination, and use it on several bikes, but I've come to appreciate drops for the longer rides and the DT shifters for their mechanical elegance and simplicity.

Unless you have T-Rex arms or are riding too small a bike with a Technomic @ min. insertion line then it shouldn't require bending over. DT shifter reach is easier than a water bottle reach.

+1. IMHO, it's a matter of simply straightening your elbow. Unless you are riding a very large frame, it's not much farther to reach for DT shifters than it is to reach barcons. I'm more sympathetic to less experienced riders feeling uncomfortable taking a hand off the bars, and maybe I'd allow some leeway to someone with a bad back and an very upright position, but the "too-far-to-bend" argument doesn't fly with me.

+1. IMHO, it's a matter of simply straightening your elbow. Unless you are riding a very large frame, it's not much farther to reach for DT shifters than it is to reach barcons. I'm more sympathetic to less experienced riders feeling uncomfortable taking a hand off the bars, and maybe I'd allow some leeway to someone with a bad back and an very upright position, but the "too-far-to-bend" argument doesn't fly with me.

True. One technique I really like to do (and this is possible because I ride small frames) is to rest my palm on the top tube and grab the DT shifter. Not a problem at all. The reach is not the winning argument with bar end shifters for me. It's being able to shift quickly in the drops as I ride there quite a bit.

Am I the only one who finds it odd that a person was flipping bikes but cannot remember which way to shift? I mean really, that's like buying a nuke from a used car salesman.

+1 It really helps the credibility with your customers if you can honestly say, "Using DT Shifters is great", or at the least, "They work great." Are you going to tell them you think they suck personally, but please buy my bike? The alternative is to start flipping STI bikes. In my experience, flipping STI bikes is painful (I do it maybe 10% of the time). First, finding them at an attractive price often means the shifters are dead. So you get introduced to the whole Shimano throw away theory on shifters. Sure, you can revive them some of the time. But you not only want to revive them, you want them to continue to work well for an extended period to maintain happy customers and referrals. Secondly, on STI bikes, you are likely to have a lot more tied up in inventory (each bike will typically cost more, so you are tying up more in inventory until the bike is sold).

Personally, I spend a fair amount of time explaining that DT shifting works well, is very reliable, and if it ever breaks, repairable at a low cost (and they don't break).

+1 Its easier than reaching down to the water bottle, or the reach into your back pocket to change songs on the iPod....

There is a reason why single speeds are so popular.

I would much rather have DT shifters over barends, unfortunately my Riv doesn't have DT shifter bosses so I stick with the barends. I can understand not liking them though.

I believe what we are dealing with here is certainly blasphemy or perhaps apostasy... somebody build a fire.

There is a reason why single speeds are so popular.

It gives incompetent bike mechanics a way to take part in the flipping business?

I'm with the OP. I, too, do not like down tube shifters at all! With that in mind, I have experimented with Barcons (http://www.mytenspeeds.com/My_TenSpeeds_1/Feature_Bicycles/Feature_Bicycles_France/Motobecane_Gran_Jubilee/MOTOBECANE_GRAND_JUBILEE_1_Start.htm) and they are my favorite shifter when using drop bars...
http://www.mytenspeeds.com/My_TenSpeeds_1/Bicycles_Table/French_Bicycles/Motobecane_Bicycles/Motobecane_Gran_Jubilee_57/Motobecane_GJ_57_Built/MotoBe_GJ_57_Built_HandleBars_2.jpg

They are pretty decent on a set of mustache bars, also...
http://www.mytenspeeds.com/My_TenSpeeds_1/Bicycles_Table/French_Bicycles/Motobecane_Bicycles/Motobecane_Gran_Jubilee_57/Motobecane_GJ_Mustache/Motobe_GJ_Must_HandleBars_2.jpg

Lately, I am beginning to see the value in Old School friction thumb shifters... They can be mounted on any handlebar and are very easy to use, compared to the down tube ones...
http://www.mytenspeeds.com/My_TenSpeeds_1/Bicycles_Table/Italian_Bicycles/Chiorda_Bicycles/Chiorda_Mixte_Yellow_2/Chiorda_Build/Chiorda_Build_HandleBars_3.jpg

I have built up a couple of Old School bikes, a Chiorda Mixte (http://www.mytenspeeds.com/My_TenSpeeds_1/Feature_Bicycles/Custom_Built_Bicycles/CHIORDA_EVIE/Chiorda_Evie_1_Start.htm) and Peugeot UO8 (http://www.mytenspeeds.com/My_TenSpeeds_1/Feature_Bicycles/Custom_Built_Bicycles/PEUGEOT_UO8_CHUCK/PEUGEOT_UO8_CHUCK_1_Start.htm), fitting both with the thumb shifters.

Glad I tucked a few sets away for days like this.

Had DownTube shifters and Bar End shifters, for years. Love the feel of groping for the right gear ratio, and wow going up a hill and getting that Ghost shifting, feels so good when the system goes auto on it's own. Dito for Bar End shifters. Since switching to Ergo and STI, there's no looking back to the good old days! Actually the best is Campy brifters, it's click and shift!

I have long arms. I just drop my hand from the bars and the DT lever is right there. I stick with 5 speed freewheels, so its only a few different positions that the lever can be in. I mean really, its a small lever with 5 increments of travel. What's the problem?

Riding 52-55 cm frames I find that when I drop my hand to the top tube I can reach the shifters on either side with my fingers... most of my bikes have bar ends or other shifters (or none at all) but having being weaned on dt shifters find they are not a real problem and indexed dt shifters are wonderful.

If a little more reach is required one could swap the stock shifters to Suntour Power ratchets which has a slightly longer lever and more leverage and are some of the nicest dt shifters ever made.

Riding 52-55 cm frames I find that when I drop my hand to the top tube I can reach the shifters on either side with my fingers... most of my bikes have bar ends or other shifters (or none at all) but having being weaned on dt shifters find they are not a real problem and indexed dt shifters are wonderful.

If a little more reach is required one could swap the stock shifters to Suntour Power ratchets which has a slightly longer lever and more leverage and are some of the nicest dt shifters ever made.

I'm sure its very bad form but I tend to shift both sides with my right hand. I'll reach through the main triangle to get to the front der. Shifter.

My bigger problem is that i have, in my modest collection, more or less one of every kind of shifter. I'm always reaching for the shifter in the position of the last bike I rode!

David

Shun the non believer! Shunnnnnnnnnnn!

+1 It really helps the credibility with your customers if you can honestly say, "Using DT Shifters is great", or at the least, "They work great." Are you going to tell them you think they suck personally, but please buy my bike? The alternative is to start flipping STI bikes. In my experience, flipping STI bikes is painful (I do it maybe 10% of the time). First, finding them at an attractive price often means the shifters are dead. So you get introduced to the whole Shimano throw away theory on shifters. Sure, you can revive them some of the time. But you not only want to revive them, you want them to continue to work well for an extended period to maintain happy customers and referrals. Secondly, on STI bikes, you are likely to have a lot more tied up in inventory (each bike will typically cost more, so you are tying up more in inventory until the bike is sold).

Personally, I spend a fair amount of time explaining that DT shifting works well, is very reliable, and if it ever breaks, repairable at a low cost (and they don't break).

+1 Its easier than reaching down to the water bottle, or the reach into your back pocket to change songs on the iPod....


Down tube shifters are not rocket science to perfect mechanic wise, they are super simple. Just because I don't use them does not mean I do not know how to work on them and get it tuned nicely. That's like saying every car mechanic should be a good race car driver. I happen to enjoy working on bikes more than riding some of them :lol:

There is a big difference between going on a casual ride to test shifting and actually trying to go fast and shift when needed, I like to shift a lot. They shift nice since I overhauled the bike I just can't get into the feel of it. Barcons are something I didn't think of, might be a good solution.

I have a crapload of experience mountain biking but very little on the road. My first road bikes had brifters, this is the first downtube bike I have spent much time on actually riding hard. This could be just bad road biking skills, of which I have few :lol:

I agree it is no different than reaching for a water bottle, I also get the same scary feeling going for the bottle on the road bike.

I agree it is no different than reaching for a water bottle, I also get the same scary feeling going for the bottle on the road bike.

Which is why I have a cage mounted on the bars.
234853
I also use bar-mounted Kelly Take Offs (http://www.kellybike.com/2nd_xtra_takeoff.html), but with friction-shifting Campy Super Record derailleurs.

I'm sure its very bad form but I tend to shift both sides with my right hand. I'll reach through the main triangle to get to the front der. Shifter.
Uh-oh, have I been doing it wrong all these years?... dammit! :bang:

I'm sure its very bad form but I tend to shift both sides with my right hand. I'll reach through the main triangle to get to the front der. Shifter.

My bigger problem is that i have, in my modest collection, more or less one of every kind of shifter. I'm always reaching for the shifter in the position of the last bike I rode!

David


Uh-oh, have I been doing it wrong all these years?... dammit! :bang:

I have a number of bikes set up with half step gearing, :bike2:
so the only realistic way to shift is with one hand operating
both DT levers.......Seriously, doesn't everyone do this?