Classic & Vintage - Advice on 'higher-end' C&V bike... a few specific options to choose from.

I'm looking to pick up something for a recreational - fitness ride... might use it as a fair-weather commuter. (I'm in Phoenix, so it's almost always fair weather :-) Have wanted to try the higher end 70's-80's steel ride for awhile.

Wondering if you have an opinion on these options available on the local craigslist (assuming they fit, and are otherwise functionally sound):

1) '87 Schwinn Paramount, low miles, in lovely orchid-pink. Looks to be outfitted with Campy CDA, mostly? or similar 2nd tier but still nice Campy stuff. Columbus, 80's Paramount geometry. *Maybe* my top pick?

2) '78 Dalton European, which I can't really find much about, but looks like a nice high end 531 frame built in the UK and set up much like a Raleigh Professional... Mix of parts, Campy Nuovo Gran Sport, among others.

3) There's a couple 80's Italian bikes available that look interesting: Battaglin, Guerciotti - generally similarly outfitted with either nice Shimano or mid-line Campy parts from the era.

Can get the Dalton a bit cheaper than the others, but I have room in the budget for any of them. My guess is they'll all be more similar than not...

Anyway, thoughts appreciated. :-) what would you go for, given the option?

When looking for a bike to ride, not necessarily to restore or sell for profit, its best to choose the one you like the most. Whatever fits you best, whatever makes you happy. That's the bike for you. With that said, i'd check out the Dalton. Seems interesting, but i know nothing about them.

^Yup. Dalton sounds interesting. Paramounts bore me, but some people think they're the hottest thing since toast. Go with your gut.

^Yup. Dalton sounds interesting. Paramounts bore me, but some people think they're the hottest thing since toast. Go with your gut.

Now I know that I'm not the only one that feels that way about Paramounts.

The italian jobs sound interesting to me. If the Paramount fits and is in good shape, that sounds sweet as well. Not familiar with Dalton.

A Paramount with with CdA? would that be original? something cobbled togather or a Design Group bike?


that is a tought lot to chose from. If I came across a mid '80s Battaglin in my size and price range I may have a gard time turning it down. can you get some pics and post in the apprasail section?

which one fits?

The Battaglin appears to only have a Campi SR rear derailleur, with some Dura Ace bits and Modolo Calipers. personally unless it is a SLX frame I think it is a bit over priced.

The Guerciotti looks nice, but I don't think it still has the Campi hubs, more likely some lowend noname clincher wheels instead of the nice tubular wheels it came with.


The Paramount is nice looking too but the group is either Victory or Triomphe hard to tell from those pics.


tough choice

A Paramount with with CdA? would that be original? something cobbled togather or a Design Group bike?


Original owner says he had it built up for him back in 87-88 when he was in college. So perhaps "original" - and from what I can tell probably not all CdA. Heck, I might even be wrong on that. Been trying to sort it out from bad pictures, and the owner's poor memory :-)

I'm supposed to meet the guy with the Dalton tomorrow afternoon.

Maybe silly, but am seriously considering buying a couple of them - and keeping the one I like best.

I know in a few days these links will be dead, but at least you can have a bit more info.

Paramount: http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/bik/2799933968.html

Dalton: http://phoenix.craigslist.org/nph/bik/2786793661.html

I think the Battaglin is circa 1990? but NOT my area of expertise.
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/bik/2771083929.html

Guerciotti
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/bik/2798394405.html

I'd buy the Dalton and probably the Guerciotti as well. The Paramount looks to be equipped with Victory or Triomphe.

Original owner says he had it built up for him back in 87-88 when he was in college. So perhaps "original" - and from what I can tell probably not all CdA. Heck, I might even be wrong on that. Been trying to sort it out from bad pictures, and the owner's poor memory :-)

I'm supposed to meet the guy with the Dalton tomorrow afternoon.

Maybe silly, but am seriously considering buying a couple of them - and keeping the one I like best.

I know in a few days these links will be dead, but at least you can have a bit more info.

Paramount: http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/bik/2799933968.html

Dalton: http://phoenix.craigslist.org/nph/bik/2786793661.html

I think the Battaglin is circa 1990? but NOT my area of expertise.
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/bik/2771083929.html

Guerciotti
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/bik/2798394405.html

OH now you make it easy LOL

I agree though I am not familiar with Dalton it may be a pretty nice machine, and not as likely to get violated while locked up somewhere.

Whichever fits best is the best bike and the parts on the bike will likely matter more than the frame. Commenting from brands is somewhat meaningless, especially when you have no idea how heavily ridden/abused any of the models were and quality can vary for any manufacturer. They all sound like nice tier two-three bikes.

Commenting from brands is somewhat meaningless, especially when you have no idea how heavily ridden/abused any of the models were and quality can vary for any manufacturer.

Well said, and with that in mind, figuring out how to determine the Quality Level (http://www.mytenspeeds.com/My_TenSpeeds_1/FREE_SITE_1/FREE_SITE_6_BICYCLE_QUALITY.htm) of any old road bicycle will be useful information. And, armed with that information, you will be able to make on the spot decisions, rather than learn, the hard way, about the bicycle that got away.

Personally, I find the Italian bicycles to have as good a ride quality as anything else but, as was pointed out, each bicycle is unique. Learn how to recognize good quality in both construction and components.

First, welcome to bikeforums. There are several people from phx on these forums, and most of them are friendly enough. I am in Mesa myself.

I saw that Paramount. It is the same color as my wife's. I think it is a great bike, and a great color (wild orchid I think). And that price is probably pretty darn good if it is in good shape.

I don't know much about the other bikes.

Here are better pictures of my wife's bike to judge the color:

http://i624.photobucket.com/albums/tt327/oldarizona/Pink%20Schwinn/DSC_0156Large.jpg

http://i624.photobucket.com/albums/tt327/oldarizona/Pink%20Schwinn/DSC_0161Large.jpg

And finally, if you want "really high end vintage" this is for sale by a friend of a friend in scottsdale:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-XTW8fiTYBkA/Tx8MbWA-zaI/AAAAAAAAHB4/Hx3mTuX2Yy8/s800/P1020606.JPG

Details are here:

http://forums.serotta.com/showthread.php?t=103079

Jared

ummm... that's rad :-) (the merckx) but way, way beyond what I'm looking for here.

Not sure what it says about me, but I do rather like that color on the Paramount. I figured that the seller's price was in the ballpark, a little surprised that he hasn't sold it already (partly, I'm sure, because making contact & plans is really tricky with this guy).

Don't know how it got there - but I really didn't think this thread would be a brand vs brand thing so much as "there are a handful of somewhat-similarly-spec'd bikes I'm looking at, any thoughts?" Seems like the bottom line is taste & fit assuming condition etc are in order.

Anyway, as of this afternoon, thinking that the Dalton will be my starting point - may grab one of the others if I can somehow justify it :-)

+1 Paramount, depending on paint condition, is a deal. If the paint looks good, price is pretty close to the value of just the frame. OK, I have a soft spot for Paramounts, I have a 1986, along with a "variety" of series Paramounts (imported or built by others).

If that Paramount was in my area, I would be buying it right now, and selling my too small 1986.

+100 I am surprised that Paramount is not sold yet, and I like the color. A Paramount frame of that era just sold in the last couple of days on ebay for $400, and it had some issues (flaking chrome does not sound good).

Nice thing about a Paramount is if you ever need to sell it, it will get instant brand and model recognition.

Chain stay on the Guerciotti looks really funky. What's up with that? OK, I looked at the picture again, I would not buy that bike.

I've got nothing against Italian bikes, just got home from riding my Colnago this afternoon. Sweet bike.

Assuming they all fit, and are in similar condition, I am a stickler for original paint and decals. Everything else can be replaced and repaired. But once the original paint is poor, a repaint is both expensive and the bike will never again be original. And a repaint and redecal of a bike of the quality you have here is similar to the price of one of those bikes.

The Dalton looks pretty interesting, but it needs some work. And if you ever decide to sell it, its an obscure brand that won't get much interest (that's the only reason it is still out there).

I will guess that the Battaglin is in mediocre condition. Look at the electrical tape on the bar tape. If that's an indication of the care this bike has received from its owner (and in my school, it is), then the bike is pretty suspect. If you are going to sell a bike for $550, the least you can do is replace the $10 bar tape. Cheesy.

If I am grabbing two, I'm getting the Paramount and the Dalton.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/280807810203?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

Decided to pick up the Dalton European... here's some pics - mainly posting for the benefit of any future Dalton purchaser trying to find some info on the web. Seems a pretty nice frame from the late '70s, with a mis-mash of mid grade parts from various sources. I added the bar tape, saddle, and new tires - took it out for about 20 miles this morning and it's pretty nice ride!

Still trying to figure out who might have built the thing. Anyone recognize that bottom bracket stamped serial number format?

Has a lot in common with some Holdsworth models from that era (circa 1980), but the details aren't quite right (notably the seat cluster). Any ideas?

10 images here, will post a few more in a followup.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7026/6778469565_d6146e9af5_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6778469565/) photo (66) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6778469565/) by jswatts3 (http://www.flickr.com/people/75402437@N07/), on Flickr
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7023/6778469195_02a56a9bf5_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6778469195/) photo (65) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6778469195/) by jswatts3 (http://www.flickr.com/people/75402437@N07/), on Flickr
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7019/6778468911_4ca77441a1_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6778468911/) photo (64) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6778468911/) by jswatts3 (http://www.flickr.com/people/75402437@N07/), on Flickr
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7148/6778468709_9267142737_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6778468709/) photo (63) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6778468709/) by jswatts3 (http://www.flickr.com/people/75402437@N07/), on Flickr
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7167/6778468543_7f0a088a28_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6778468543/) photo (62) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6778468543/) by jswatts3 (http://www.flickr.com/people/75402437@N07/), on Flickr
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7172/6778468385_063d003129_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6778468385/) photo (61) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6778468385/) by jswatts3 (http://www.flickr.com/people/75402437@N07/), on Flickr
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7023/6778468147_d768a4149f_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6778468147/) photo (60) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6778468147/) by jswatts3 (http://www.flickr.com/people/75402437@N07/), on Flickr
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7012/6778467971_808269b017_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6778467971/) photo (59) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6778467971/) by jswatts3 (http://www.flickr.com/people/75402437@N07/), on Flickr
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7008/6778467863_0f6b866350_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6778467863/) photo (58) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6778467863/) by jswatts3 (http://www.flickr.com/people/75402437@N07/), on Flickr
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7147/6778467729_5bf9dac31f_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6778467729/) photo (57) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6778467729/) by jswatts3 (http://www.flickr.com/people/75402437@N07/), on Flickr

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7030/6778467459_b807a89275_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6778467459/) photo (56) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6778467459/) by jswatts3 (http://www.flickr.com/people/75402437@N07/), on Flickr
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7162/6778467303_5045a72204_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6778467303/) photo (55) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6778467303/) by jswatts3 (http://www.flickr.com/people/75402437@N07/), on Flickr
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7166/6778467163_5953aedb06_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6778467163/) photo (54) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6778467163/) by jswatts3 (http://www.flickr.com/people/75402437@N07/), on Flickr
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7022/6778467035_21d616ed2a_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6778467035/) photo (53) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6778467035/) by jswatts3 (http://www.flickr.com/people/75402437@N07/), on Flickr

Oh dang... That's nice.

I love the color on the Paramount. I have been after a pink bike or a while actually.

Oh dang... That's nice.

I love the color on the Paramount. I have been after a pink bike or a while actually.

May still go after that Paramount, need to recover some $ in my budget, though... looking around the house to see if there's anything I can sell fast :-)

I agree that Dalton is great looking. it was a tough choice between those bikes

I like the Dalton! Great color too!

Cheers,
Chris

Original owner says he had it built up for him back in 87-88 when he was in college. So perhaps "original" - and from what I can tell probably not all CdA. Heck, I might even be wrong on that. Been trying to sort it out from bad pictures, and the owner's poor memory :-)

I'm supposed to meet the guy with the Dalton tomorrow afternoon.

Maybe silly, but am seriously considering buying a couple of them - and keeping the one I like best.

I know in a few days these links will be dead, but at least you can have a bit more info.

Paramount: http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/bik/2799933968.html

Dalton: http://phoenix.craigslist.org/nph/bik/2786793661.html

I think the Battaglin is circa 1990? but NOT my area of expertise.
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/bik/2771083929.html

Guerciotti
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/bik/2798394405.html

Those are Victory components on the Paramount. One level from the top when introduced....

+1 Paramount, depending on paint condition, is a deal. If the paint looks good, price is pretty close to the value of just the frame. OK, I have a soft spot for Paramounts, I have a 1986, along with a "variety" of series Paramounts (imported or built by others).

If that Paramount was in my area, I would be buying it right now, and selling my too small 1986.

+100 I am surprised that Paramount is not sold yet, and I like the color. A Paramount frame of that era just sold in the last couple of days on ebay for $400, and it had some issues (flaking chrome does not sound good).

Nice thing about a Paramount is if you ever need to sell it, it will get instant brand and model recognition.

Chain stay on the Guerciotti looks really funky. What's up with that? OK, I looked at the picture again, I would not buy that bike.

I've got nothing against Italian bikes, just got home from riding my Colnago this afternoon. Sweet bike.

Assuming they all fit, and are in similar condition, I am a stickler for original paint and decals. Everything else can be replaced and repaired. But once the original paint is poor, a repaint is both expensive and the bike will never again be original. And a repaint and redecal of a bike of the quality you have here is similar to the price of one of those bikes.

The Dalton looks pretty interesting, but it needs some work. And if you ever decide to sell it, its an obscure brand that won't get much interest (that's the only reason it is still out there).

I will guess that the Battaglin is in mediocre condition. Look at the electrical tape on the bar tape. If that's an indication of the care this bike has received from its owner (and in my school, it is), then the bike is pretty suspect. If you are going to sell a bike for $550, the least you can do is replace the $10 bar tape. Cheesy.

If I am grabbing two, I'm getting the Paramount and the Dalton.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/280807810203?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

What he said.

That Dalton is rad! Congrats!

The Dalton appears to have non-Reynolds rear stays (although it has 531 fork blade decals).

That bike and the Paramount are very different, functionally. About 10+ years in age difference, also.
Sport-touring vs. 'racing.' If you like the Dalton's performance (and comfort), you may not like the Paramount's, but that Waterford Paramount is a lot of high-end tubing, parts, workmanship, and quality for the money, if you ask me.... :thumb:

I would pass on both The Guerch. and Battaglin, unless the prices were significantly lower. That Guerciotti is a bottom-of-the-line model of a 'nothing-to-write-home-about' brand imo (and before the flames begin, my wife has about 75,000 miles on her '81 Guerciotti, so I am quite aware of the finer points of at least one (top-model) Guerciotti...). The Battaglin looks very 'pre-enjoyed' to me.

ALRIGHT went totally crazy this weekend, went out today and bought the Paramount as well. Now will be comparing side by side to decide which suits my needs better. Or keep them both? who knows. Turns out the Paramount is a 57cm from '86. Was advertised at 56. No biggie for me, that's still about right. Generally not in quite so good of condition as advertised - a couple pretty good spots of paint flaking. No dents or anything. SLX tubing... beautifully put together bike. Mostly Campy Victory... exceptions are a Stronglight headset (factory?), and he swapped the pedals. Wheels are Wolber Super Champion Modele 58's.

Pics posted here are pre-cleanup... nothing fancied up here, just as is when I unloaded it from the car. For the most part looks like it will clean up nicely.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7141/6785247589_a19ef7e7c8_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6785247589/)
photo (82) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6785247589/) by jswatts3 (http://www.flickr.com/people/75402437@N07/), on Flickr

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photo (81) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6785247003/) by jswatts3 (http://www.flickr.com/people/75402437@N07/), on Flickr

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photo (80) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6785246351/) by jswatts3 (http://www.flickr.com/people/75402437@N07/), on Flickr

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photo (79) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6785245769/) by jswatts3 (http://www.flickr.com/people/75402437@N07/), on Flickr

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photo (77) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6785244735/) by jswatts3 (http://www.flickr.com/people/75402437@N07/), on Flickr

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photo (76) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6785244441/) by jswatts3 (http://www.flickr.com/people/75402437@N07/), on Flickr

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7002/6785244047_fd7b3f12ec_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6785244047/)
photo (75) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6785244047/) by jswatts3 (http://www.flickr.com/people/75402437@N07/), on Flickr

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7145/6785243603_d5b39bc9f4_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6785243603/)
photo (74) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6785243603/) by jswatts3 (http://www.flickr.com/people/75402437@N07/), on Flickr

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photo (73) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6785243279/) by jswatts3 (http://www.flickr.com/people/75402437@N07/), on Flickr

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photo (72) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6785242835/) by jswatts3 (http://www.flickr.com/people/75402437@N07/), on Flickr

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7150/6785242631_67a1a3e6fa_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6785242631/)
photo (71) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6785242631/) by jswatts3 (http://www.flickr.com/people/75402437@N07/), on Flickr

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7026/6785242107_d57000068e_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6785242107/)
photo (70) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6785242107/) by jswatts3 (http://www.flickr.com/people/75402437@N07/), on Flickr

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photo (69) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6785241493/) by jswatts3 (http://www.flickr.com/people/75402437@N07/), on Flickr

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7007/6785241219_9081926961_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6785241219/)
photo (68) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6785241219/) by jswatts3 (http://www.flickr.com/people/75402437@N07/), on Flickr

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photo (67) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75402437@N07/6785240783/) by jswatts3 (http://www.flickr.com/people/75402437@N07/), on Flickr

Serial number will verify the size for sure (first three or four digits as I recall).

Good move getting both!

Serial number will verify the size for sure (first three or four digits as I recall).

Good move getting both!

Thanks. Yeah, I'm pretty pleased :-) size is 57 - serial is 570C WK 860xx (maybe 5700, but I think 570C - not that it matters, 57.0 is what it means).

^Yup. Dalton sounds interesting. Paramounts bore me, but some people think they're the hottest thing since toast. Go with your gut.

+100 on paramounts

i don't know why, i have no desire for anything schwinn, i don't know why they're so sought after, but then again, i'm more partial to the italian bikes

+100 on paramounts

i don't know why, i have no desire for anything schwinn, i don't know why they're so sought after, but then again, i'm more partial to the italian bikes

I'm thinking that at least now I get to see what the fuss (either way) is all about. Rode the Paramount around the neighborhood today, and holy smokes, it's different from that Dalton. Very nice, not 100% sure it's what I'm going for. Will get it set up & cleaned up and take it on one of my longer loops to see how my opinion evolves.

Granted I'm a relative newb to this stuff, but there's a tiny bit of irony in the way I see it - this generation Paramount is italian tubing (Columbus SLX) with mostly italian parts (Campy, Cinelli)... put together by some respected builders w/ a pretty racy geometry - and you're not interested whatsoever. No accounting for taste, either way, I suppose :-)

I dig the Paramount too! Great color and build.
I'd put fenders on the Dalton, and keep them both!

Cheers,
Chris

+100 on paramounts

i don't know why, i have no desire for anything schwinn, i don't know why they're so sought after, but then again, i'm more partial to the italian bikes

I know this is the general perception of a lot of people, but the Waterford Schwinn plant has put out some pretty nice bikes.

And if you don't the know the builder of an Italian bike how can you say that any one italian bike is going to be better than a Waterford built Schwinn? Waterford reportedly had top builders, used top techniques and materials (silver brazed SLX tubing was top notch).

Is your average italian bike likely to be much better?