Classic and Vintage Bicycles: What's it Worth? Appraisals and Inquiries - Ciocc

Hi,
I'm thinking of buying this Ciocc frame on Monday. He's asking $295 (Toronto prices!).
I was hoping that someone could help me with any information. No idea what year or model, and I'm unsure about the quality of the Columbus tubing.

The ad states:
51cm seat tube, 52cm top tube
Colombus tubing
Campagnolo horizontal dropouts
Chrome rear triangle
Ciocc pantographed fork and seatstay caps
Shimano 105 headset
Shimano 105 bottom bracket

Not sure how long this link will remain but here's the ad:
http://toronto.en.craigslist.ca/tor/bik/2818479940.html

He emailed to tell me the Columbus sticker says:
Tubi Speciali Rinforzati Acciaio CRMO

I've poked around online and can't find much about this type of Columbus tubing, except that it likely pre-dates SL, SLX, etc. It roughly translates as 'Special tubes reinforced steel.' Though I wonder if that means 'double butted.'

Pictures from the ad below.

Any ideas as the year, model or any info on this "Tubi Speciali Rinforzati Acciaio CRMO" would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!

Looks decent. I'd guess 1990s. If the seat post size is 27.2, that's a good sign of higher-end tubing. The chrome looks decent (from those photos, anyways).
The rear dropout adjusters are installed back-asswards, and are the wrong ones, but that isn't a problem as long as they turn freely so that can be corrected.
Are you going to buy it?
To show how cool you are, use the correct pronunciation of the brand name if you talk to the seller. It's 'chuh-ch' (sort of like 'church' with the 'r' almost no longer there).

Ciocc-cat may have more to chime in with....

Thanks, 753proguy. If it's from the 90s, wouldn't there be something in all the Columbus charts out there about that "Tubi Speciali Rinforzati Acciaio CRMO"?
I'm pretty sure I'll buy it so long as it's not crap tubing with Columbus brand.
As for the pronunciation, I've seen a few... Apparently it means 'poker face.'

Ciocc. (chocolate- covered)

That Columbus tubing decal looks 1990s or newer to me, but we can't see all of it. Cyclex maybe?

Ciocc-cat gave us a link (previously) to a cool youtube video of the 'factory' that included a discussion with Sig. Pellizoli (sp?) about the pronunciation. They are near the German border, so that 'o' that has an umlaut is pronounced, well, like it has an umlaut....

"Chuh-ch' is correct. It isn't 'choach' or even 'choke.'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJHwPqn2jY0

You should defintely buy that is it's your size. Given the chrome fork and stays, it's probably a few notches up from the low end. Regardless of tubing type, Ciocc's are great riders and that one looks to be in decent shape. The price isn't at all out of line. On ebay Ciocc frames in that condition usually sell in the $300-500 range.

Thanks, thinktubes. It's just the size I've been on the look out for. I ride a 54cm Nishiki right now and it's a bit, uh, 'tight' for the standover height. And I like that that the top tube is relatively short. My Nishiki has a 55cm toptube. Another frame I have is 48cm (too small) but the top tube is 56cm..
I'm guessing that with the Campagnolo stamped dropouts it's not the low end, but I'm wary of the Columbus type. If it just said SL or SLX I wouldn't be hesitating at all. From what I've seen there are lots of high-end brands with not so great tubing. Lots of the Bianchis I've seen around Toronto are just Tange. And it seems most old Peugeots are not very good at all.

That's a pretty good price, especially for Toronto, I hope it lasts until Monday. I think that the tubing might be similar to Cromor or Aelle but it can't be too bad, the chromed rear triangle is really nice.

Hey jet, The guy said he'd hold it for me until Monday (when I get paid). It's Criagslist so no guarantees... But this guy sells lots of stuff on Craigs and I've bought a few parts from him before and he's a good guy.
Interesting that this is a 'good' price - I just figure that, being Toronto, it was high.
If I do get it, I'll do my best to figure out what year and model it is, and whatever other info, and post it here. Doesn't seem like there's much info on older Ciocc bikes.

Here's something similar on ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/CIOCC-Designer-84-Columbus-Steel-Vintage-Road-Bike-SL-CIOCC-NOS-Parts-80s-/190632545682?pt=Road_Bikes&hash=item2c6295cd92

Seller claims SL tubing. Of course theres no photo of the decal.

If the CL frame comes with everything pictured (headset, barrel adjusters, BB, 2 bottle cages, ones an Cussi Elite, and seat binder) that just sweetens the deal. Even if the tubing is Cromor or even Aelle you should still pick it up.

......... And it seems most old Peugeots are not very good at all.

Uhmmmm... FYI, lots and lots of "old" Peugeots from the 60's 70's and 80.s were built with full 531 tubesets of different specifications and many have high regards for their ride quality. Even Peugeot's lower models with their own "house tubesets" are highly regarded by their owners because of the great rides and reliability that they give.
Also note that Peugeot issued pro level frames to the public in the late 80's that had SLX tubing too. I think a frameset just recently sold for over $1K at ebay recently.. As did other French makers like Gitane. So don't just assume Peugeots are just all cheap and "not good at all" bikes because you will be missing out on a whole lot of really good bikes. if you keep your "blinders" on....:rolleyes:

Chombi

Thanks, thinktubes. Too bad there isn't a pic of the Columbus sticker.

Chombi: thanks for the info. I wouldn't say I have "blinders" on, just a healthy dose of skepticism when I see Peugeots posted for $600 and there's no mention of the tubing. Lots around here for sale are UO-8. But let's not get into a Peugeot discussion here..

The Columbus decal style indicates 1988 or newer. The fact that's it's CrMo but not Cyclex, should narrow it to Cromor, which was Columbus' butted tubeset for mid-range bicycles. Weight-wise, it slotted in between SL and SP, but was seamed. Cromor decals are usually silver and state Cromor but this could be a customized version with a Ciocc specific label. Certainly, 105 components would be typical spec for a Cromor frame.

Interesting that this is a 'good' price - I just figure that, being Toronto, it was high.
If I do get it, I'll do my best to figure out what year and model it is, and whatever other info, and post it here. Doesn't seem like there's much info on older Ciocc bikes.

I am the very happy owner of two Cioccs and they are excellent bikes, I would easily pay $300 for another Ciocc in decent condition. It would sell in any market for $300, I am surprised that this seller isn't asking for more, to be honest.

Thanks, T-Mar! I wonder if the sticker actually says "Cromor" and the guy just thought it said "Cro-Mo." The other thing I like is that there's a Columbus sticker on the fork since sometimes the fork can be different tubing or steel than the frame.
Jet - thanks for adding to the 'this is a good deal' comments. Hopefully the guy does, in fact, hold the frame and I can pick it up on Monday.

Cromor is a nice riding tubeset. I've ridden a mid-80's Battaglin Cromor for over 15 years. It still has the TSD sticker.

Here's a photo of it setup as a single speed. Currently, I'm running it as a 1x7, but don't have a pic.

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5089/5271860937_c90556374b.jpg

Thanks, T-Mar! I wonder if the sticker actually says "Cromor" and the guy just thought it said "Cro-Mo." The other thing I like is that there's a Columbus sticker on the fork since sometimes the fork can be different tubing or steel than the frame....

I doubt he's confused CrMo and Cromor, as on the the line below the Columbus dove it typically reads "Acciaio CrMo". I can't make out the decal on the fork.

BTW, if the headset is black, as it appears to be in the picture, that makes it Shimano New 105. If original to the frame, that would place it 1987-1989. Taken in conjunction with the decal, that should narrow it down to 1988 or 1989. Checking some old literature, the 1988 model with 105 used Falk tubing and was called the Columbo, In 1990 the 105SC equipped version was still called the Columbo, so yours should be a 1989 Columbo, though unfortunately I don't have any 1989 literature to verify the tubeset.

Thanks, T-Mar. After reading your response, I poked around and found this list of Ciocc models:
http://search.bikelist.org/getmsg.asp?Filename=classicrendezvous.10206.1438.eml
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your post, but if my bike is a Columbo with Falk (or Falck) tubing, it wouldn't have a Columbus sticker, right? Or is Falk a type of Columbus?
Doesn't help either that Concorde has a 'Columbo' model as well... yeesh!

Coumbus and Falck are two different companies. My identifaction was based on the assumption that the New 105 headset is OEM to the frame, which it may not be. It may not even be New 105, though that's the best candidate based on it reportedly being 105.

Ah, I see 1988 was Falck; mine's Columbus so 1989.

Ah, I see 1988 was Falck; mine's Columbus so 1989.

Not according to that link you provided. Supposedly, Falk was also used for 1989 and 1990. That should make yours the 1991 Cromor Future frame, but then it should have also 105SC versus the New 105, which it appears to have. So, the components and tubeset aren't correlating, but maybe it was a bare frame built up with old components? If you get it, we can date the components via the codes and get better pics. That will give us a better idea about what is going on.

Just wanted to say 'thanks' to all who chimed in here. I decided not to buy this frame for a few reasons. Mainly it was this vague 'Columbus' sticker. T-Mar was able to figure out it's late80s/early90s. Since Columbus was by then using it's SL, SLX, etc. standards I'm skeptical of this bike's tubing without an identification like SL, SLX, etc. Like this handy chart:
http://www.equusbicycle.com/bike/columbus/columbuschart.htm
I also saw on Sheldon Brown's website there are many Ciocc copies out there, and I see the Ciocc and Columbus stickers on ebay and elsewhere. Also I don't have a 'thing' for Ciocc bikes and this particular frame is, in my opinion, lacking in the aesthetics department.
So, the hunt for a 52cm frame with quality cro-mo and tubing continues!
Thanks again.

All that engraving would make it harder to fake as a ciocc, no?

It is definitely a real Ciocc just likely a mid-range model. Nothing wrong with that, I am sure soemone will be happy with it some day.

Sorry - I didn't mean to imply that this one is "for sure" a fake or copy. It was just another thing that added to my decision. The main thing was the weird Columbus sticker. I'm sure the frame is decent and, as you say, will make someone happy. It's just that I've been looking for sometime now for a high quality steel frame in my size and I want to be sure I get what I'm after.
Thanks again, everyone.

...It's just that I've been looking for sometime now for a high quality steel frame in my size and I want to be sure I get what I'm after...

Too bad you're in need of 52cm. I have a friend with a 54 SLX that he's willing to part with, though cosmetically it's very rough and in need of repaint. I 'll be within an hour of T.O. in March and could deliver it, most of the way.

A bit late in reply here - sorry. Thanks T-mar for the offer, but I'm either going to just stick with the frame I have or keep my eye out for good price on a 50 or 52cm frame.

A bit late in reply here - sorry. Thanks T-mar for the offer, but I'm either going to just stick with the frame I have or keep my eye out for good price on a 50 or 52cm frame.

No problem. Good luck!