General Cycling Discussion - Opinions On A Bad Purchase, Please.

Okay, I don't know if this belongs here or not, but I'll give it a shot.

I put Brooks saddles on everything I ride now. I have two bikes with B17s and a bike with a B66. I recently bought another commuter bike and wanted to put a B17 on it, so, I was trying to stumble upon a good deal on Ebay for one. I watched several, bid on several and lost several. I then came upon one that looked scuffed up, but that didn't bother me since he said that he only put about 40 miles on it so I figured it was just scuffed up due to "shop wear". I bid on it and got if for $62 shipped. That seems like a decent deal, even though I have seen new ones go for not much more than that.

I got it yesterday and it's a bit different than the description. The leather is stretched (he never mentioned it), there is blue paint on it (he never mentioned it), the rivets are rusted on the underside (he never mentioned it) and he tells me today that he bought it used (his description leads you to believe the saddle has only 40 miles on it).

I emailed him and he basically told me he described the saddle perfectly. Here's the actual description:

"I have a Brooks B17 Champion Standard saddle for sale that is in good shape. There are no gouges or water damage to the saddle. I just don't find that it fits my anatomy as well as I'd like, so I'm in pursuit of something else. The rails are straight, leather looks fine. It is black as you can see in the photo. I put less than 40 miles on it before I took it off. Thanks for looking!"

Here's the emails:

Me:
Well, I received the saddle yesterday and I got to tell you that if you only put 40 miles on this Brooks then they were either a very hard 40 miles or somebody else put some miles on it before you. I have a B17 with about 1500-2000 miles on it and it looks like new compared to this one.
The leather is extremely loose, the rivets on the underside have rust on them, it's scuffed up like crazy and there is something blue (paint?) on the top of the saddle.
You really should take better pictures or at least describe your items a little more carefully.

Him:
I am sorry you are dissatisfied with the saddle. It was never my intention to misrepresent it in any way. I felt the description was indeed accurate as seen in the ad description. The photo does clearly show the scuffing and blue paint on the saddle itself. It was that way when I received it used off of ebay. I had no prior experiences with Brooks saddles, so I really can't offer any insight as to the tension of the leather. It appeared to be in good shape for what it was, and that is what I tried to describe it as. I keep a mileage log on my bicycles and I only rode this saddle on two rides for a total of 43 miles. I assure you I always do my best to accurately represent anything I sell as you can see from the comments left in my feedback. Again, I apologize for your dissatisfaction.

Me:
The blue paint on the rear half of the saddle is not visible at all and blue paint on the saddle was never mentioned. the way your photo is taken nothing is obvious. And, you being the second owner (which I just found out in your response) was NEVER mentioned. If it had been I would have never purchased it, as the previous owner rode it and clearly abused it. I figured by your description that you purchased it new, didn't like it, took it off and set it aside where it got scuffed up by laying around. The scuffs don't bother me, but the misrepresentation does.

Him:
I'm sorry you feel that way. I disagree, but will try to be more painfully descriptive in future auctions as per your request. If you had additional questions I wish you would have sought additional clarification prior to bidding. I noted the saddle was used in the advertisement, the scuffing was evident in the photo as was the paint. Again, I'm sorry for you dissatisfaction

Me:
Sarcasm noted.

Him:
This isn't productive. I'm not being sarcastic, I'm not being rude and I'm not being insulting. I'm sorry you don't like the saddle. I did my best to represent it for what it was. I hope you get many happy miles out of it. Good riding.

Here's a photo of it:


http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Brooks-B17-/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/$(KGrHqR,!pEE63YiCUkLBPEJlrjlcQ~~60_1.JPG

So, am I the unyielding old curmudgeon? Or, do I have a valid point? I have only given one negative feedback in 9 years and that was to a buyer that didn't pay me. I should have given a couple of others, but the sellers offered a refund, so, I let it go.

I would be offended!
Have you tried going through Ebay buyer protection?
Did you use PayPal?
A couple other routes you might try since he doesn't sound like he is going to satisfy you.

Scuff it, stain it, change to copper rivets.

This is why I cringe when I recommend CL bicycles. Ebay is even worse than CL! Usually, there's more distance between Ebay people. With CL people, there's usually the advantage of the buyer knowing how to physically contact the seller. The prospect of future repercussion is much greater. Ebay justice is just too convoluted!

So you've been obviously had by yet, another Ebay con artist. Well, you might wanna start here:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/buy/item-not-received.html

Sorry for your troubles, RecumbentToad.

- Slim :(

Scuff it, stain it, change to copper rivets.

If Ebay customer service doesn't accomodate you, this might be your lemonade!

- Slim :)

PS.

There's all kinds of chemical paint removers out there.

...Wonder what a shoe or leather repair service could do for you, afterwards?

eBay will require you to pay return shipping on it. You might lose less money selling it yourself?

At the very least I would hit him with negative feedback. Others need to know what kind of seller they are dealing with. If I was you I might file a PayPal complaint just for principle. The foundation of Ebay is dependent on honesty and the seller was not upfront.

It sounds at the very least like he was deceptive in his description and picture, hiding the blue paint and implying that the seat only had 40 miles total on it. You're obviously not going to get any satisfaction from him; so I'd give the negative feedback, then do what I could to fix up the seat.

It sounds at the very least like he was deceptive in his description and picture, hiding the blue paint and implying that the seat only had 40 miles total on it. You're obviously not going to get any satisfaction from him; so I'd give the negative feedback, then do what I could to fix up the seat.

That's what I think too.

As of right now you've taken a $62 hit. Chalk it up as tuition in the school of hard knocks. You can pay ahead to somebody else with negative feedback, then reduce the pain of the hit by figuring out what you're going to do with the seat. Put it behind you and cycle on.

OK, I just noticed your screen name. Why is a guy who calls himself RECUMBENTtoad buying a Brooks saddle anyway?

Just take it as a lesson, relist it and sell it with the right info if you cant live with it. Ebay used to great...

The guy's ad is not very descriptive of the actual condition of the saddle in the photo. I don't blame you for being dissatisfied, I would be too. I'm not sure why he just didn't offer you a refund ; simple, case closed.

I think I would rather have a brooks already broken in a little than a new one as long as there is still room on the adjustment screw to tighten the leather? If the rivits only show rust under the saddle use it untill they pop and need to be replaced. Get some fine sand papper and gently wet sand area just enough to get the paint off then very lightly wet sand the whole saddle but not the rivits, let it dry and hit it with some black shoe polish, then maybe some saddle soap or something if its to slippery from the shoe polish. I am not saying you should'nt leave negative feedback to the seller.

Scuff it, stain it, change to copper rivets.
???

It probably would be cheaper and less effort to just get another saddle.


this might be your lemonade!
No, probably not.

Here's a photo of it:

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Brooks-B17-/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/$(KGrHqR,!pEE63YiCUkLBPEJlrjlcQ~~60_1.JPG

You are implying that it's your picture of it (a different picture than the ebay one).

This appears to be the photo of it (from ebay).

It looks to have more wear than 40 miles.

The seller was not being quite honest in providing the state of the object (how many miles or years of use). He should have indicated (at the least) that it was of indeterminate age and that he had himself only tried it for 40 miles.


eBay will require you to pay return shipping on it. You might lose less money selling it yourself?
How much would shipping cost? He'd also have to pay shipping if he sold it (on Ebay).

???

It probably would be cheaper and less effort to just get another saddle.


No, probably not.

Within the range of any given probability, there remains a possible outcome that is varied from another. Given that there are only two possible outcomes, here. There stands a fair chance that the OP might possess certain fundamental reading and comprehension skills that will allow him to purchase the materials required to recondition his saddle, without over expending himself.

Therefore, we could state the alternative, and say, "Most probably yes! ..I think so!". We say this, because our glass is not half empty. It remains half-full, afterall! ;)

I know someone who does leather dying and has done some graphic designs on his Brooks saddles. If you think you might want to do something like that on this saddle, let me know and I can hook you up.

http://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/305350_260320024018570_257494484301124_824655_1436279134_n.jpg

Within the range of any given probability, there remains a possible outcome that is varied from another. Given that there are only two possible outcomes, here. There stands a fair chance that the OP might possess certain fundamental reading and comprehension skills that will allow him to purchase the materials required to recondition his saddle, without over expending himself.

Therefore, we could state the alternative, and say, "Most probably yes! ..I think so!". We say this, because our glass is not half empty. It remains half-full, afterall! ;)
You aren't making any sense.

It likely much harder to "recondition" than you imagine. He'd likely be better off returning it (if it's possible).

I know someone who does leather dying and has done some graphic designs on his Brooks saddles. If you think you might want to do something like that on this saddle, let me know and I can hook you up.
That's "interesting". It seems that there are more significant problems with this saddle than could be fixed just by dying.

Looks like it has shop wear, maybe a take-off.. cant tell from picture
if it has butt impressions yet , so you are good to go from here
and break it in with yours.

I bid on it and got if for $62 shipped.
reasonable price, these days..

OK, I just noticed your screen name. Why is a guy who calls himself RECUMBENTtoad buying a Brooks saddle anyway?

When I joined I had two 'bents, but have since sold them. I may yet have another one sometime in the future.


You are implying that it's your picture of it (a different picture than the ebay one).

This appears to be the photo of it (from ebay).

Yes, that is the actual Ebay photo.

Looks like it has shop wear, maybe a take-off.. cant tell from picture
if it has butt impressions yet , so you are good to go from here
and break it in with yours.

reasonable price, these days..

Yes, there were impressions in it. Not really able to see them in the photo.

You are implying that it's your picture of it (a different picture than the ebay one).

This appears to be the photo of it (from ebay).

It looks to have more wear than 40 miles.

The seller was not being quite honest in providing the state of the object (how many miles or years of use). He should have indicated (at the least) that it was of indeterminate age and that he had himself only tried it for 40 miles.


How much would shipping cost? He'd also have to pay shipping if he sold it (on Ebay).
He would be able to charge his buyer for the shipping though :) And shipping prices would of course be determined by what shipping service he uses as well as where it is shipping from and where it is going.

recumbenttoad, did you look at the pic before you bid? You can clearly see the age as well as the blue paint.

He would be able to charge his buyer for the shipping though :) And shipping prices would of course be determined by what shipping service he uses as well as where it is shipping from and where it is going.


Assume shipping is $10. He'd have to take the time/effort to sell the saddle and get $72 to break even.

Since he doesn't think it's worth $62, what makes it seem reasonable to expect him to get anything near that (assuming he's representing the product accurately)?

Returning it, he's out shipping. Trying to sell it, he's out for potentially more (and talking more effort to lose more).

Yes, that is the actual Ebay photo.
I don't think the condition as shown in the photo is unreasonable for the price you paid.

The issue is that the photo (according to you) represents the condition as better than actual.

If you have reasonable complaints, send it back (if you can) and eat the cost of shipping.

Assume shipping is $10. He'd have to take the time/effort to sell the saddle and get $72 to break even.

Since he doesn't think it's worth $62, what makes it seem reasonable to expect him to get anything near that (assuming he's representing the product accurately)?

Returning it, he's out shipping. Trying to sell it, he's out for potentially more (and talking more effort to lose more).

That is if he sells it online. I'd bet some poor schmuck would pick it up off of Craigslist for $60 though.

I don't think the condition as shown in the photo is unreasonable for the price you paid.

The issue is that the photo (according to you) represents the condition as better than actual.

If you have reasonable complaints, send it back (if you can) and eat the cost of shipping.

The bottom line is, reasonable or not, the buyer is dissatisfied with the condition of the saddle. Reading the seller's reply, I think that it's unlikely that returning the saddle for a refund is going to happen. That's the reality and it's the risk one assumes with a private internet sale.

You aren't making any sense.

It likely much harder to "recondition" than you imagine. He'd likely be better off returning it (if it's possible).

Just because you don't comprehend, doesn't mean that I don't make any sense. I simply made a statement of probability. You used the word "probably", in the statement, "probably not". This statement implies probability. Probability is defined as the number of possible occurences divided by the total number of actual occurences.
Therefore, if you state that event will, "probably not" occur, that implies that there might also be room for the event to occur, as well.

Therefore, the OP still has a favorable chance to take this sour situation and convert it into a favorable one, by following leathercraft instructions, in order to recondition his saddle.

Why is it that you feel that you have some kind of supreme right to either validate someone's opinion as being accurate, legitimate, or worthy?

We all just have opinions. Let others make their opinions known and you make your opinion known. There's no need to point-counterpoint in practically every thread. That's just a little too confrontational, for me...

recumbenttoad, did you look at the pic before you bid? You can clearly see the age as well as the blue paint.

Well, there is no way you can determine the age from the photo. You can see scuffs, which I was okay with, but you can't see the blue paint on the rear half of the saddle or the dimples in the leather or the rust on the rivets. Its the unbelievable amount of wear the saddle has on it that irritates me. He never stated that there was more than 40 miles on the saddle. The description clearly leads one to believe that there are only 40 miles on it. It has to have several thousand miles on it in the shape it is in.

Hey, I'm not trying to whine because in the big scheme of things it really means nothing, I'm just asking whether or not you folks would feel the saddle was misrepresented or not.

Hey, I'm not trying to whine because in the big scheme of things it really means nothing, I'm just asking whether or not you folks would feel the saddle was misrepresented or not.

"I put less than 40 miles on it before I took it off."

I'd call that statement that is both technically accurate and misleading at the same time. It would be unexcusable if it had come from a commercial dealer. I'm thinking the rules on a private sale are a little more lenient.

That is if he sells it online. I'd bet some poor schmuck would pick it up off of Craigslist for $60 though.
Hah! Except he's going to have to deal with scores of creepy dudes showing up at his house wanting it for $5. (Not worth it.)

The bottom line is, reasonable or not, the buyer is dissatisfied with the condition of the saddle.
It appears that the photo is misleading according to the OP (we have to assume that he is correct).

If the object was not really as described (if the photo was misleading), the OP has a better argument. Merely being "dissatisfied" is his right but it's a weak position to argue from.


Reading the seller's reply, I think that it's unlikely that returning the saddle for a refund is going to happen. That's the reality and it's the risk one assumes with a private internet sale.
The OP seems to think some recourse is possible. If that's not true, there's not much he can do (as you said).


"I put less than 40 miles on it before I took it off."

I'd call that statement that is both technically accurate and misleading at the same time. It would be unexcusable if it had come from a commercial dealer. I'm thinking the rules on a private sale are a little more lenient.

The seller is either disingenuous or not very smart. His lame excuses for the deficient description might be true but they aren't relevant. I'm leaning towards him being disingenuous (which would mean that he's not going to be reasonable).

Why is it that you feel that you have some kind of supreme right to either validate someone's opinion as being accurate, legitimate, or worthy?

Your time really must not be worth much. Rebuilding the saddle is a lot of effort (the problems are not just the surface).

Why is it you think you can make silly comments and not be called on them?


Let others make their opinions known and you make you opinion known. There's no need to point-counterpoint in practically every thread. That's just a little too confrontational, for me...
??? I did make my opinion known. You could either put more consideration into what you say or you could spend time complaining when people (and it's not just me) comment on it. The former is time better spent (in my opinion).

(Note that posters who ignore the sort of feed back you are getting from the community don't tend to fare well. There's no reason you can't improve the quality of your posts. In my opinion.)

Hey, I'm not trying to whine because in the big scheme of things it really means nothing, I'm just asking whether or not you folks would feel the saddle was misrepresented or not.

It seems that the description and the photo are not a reasonable representation of the product (keeping in mind that we have to trust your comments about it).

The seller is either being disingenuous or is not very smart. His lame excuses for the deficient description might be true but they aren't relevant: the description has to be reasonably accurate.

I'm leaning towards him being disingenuous (which would mean that he's not going to be reasonable).

The issue is what you can reasonably do about it.

Hah! Except he's going to have to deal with scores of creepy dudes showing up at his house wanting it for $5. (Not worth it.)
The last Brooks I sold on CL, the buyer wanted to know how much he increased his cool factor. He was buying a woman's version ;)

I used a Proofide Saturation technique, warming the saddle in the oven,
then upside down put a big dollop of the Stuff in the bottom,
and let it soak up the molten waxes like a sponge.. It will darken and protect.

one is 30 years old, the other 20+.. I'd say just ride it and go on with your life

]Your time really must not be worth much. Rebuilding the saddle is a lot of effort (the problems are not just the surface). Why is it you think you can make silly comments and not be called on them?

Are you an expert in leather, saddles, or reconditioning anything? ...What makes you more qualified to make such an assessment than anyone else?....Just who or what do you think you are? ...You're no supreme judge with the most respected logic, here!..In fact, logic appears NOT to be your strong suit!


??? I did make my opinion known. You could either put more consideration into
what you say or you could spend time complaining when people (and it's not just
me) comment on it. The former is time better spent (in my opinion).


No. It's your opinion that tends to be confrontational. As you appear to lurk through these threads, just to either validate or criticize so many peoples opinions, as though your opinion prevails in the confirmation, one way or another. People have a right to express their opinion, without your constant critiques. Just allow people the space to post, comment, or whatever, without your constant need to critique! ...Sometimes, you should just let it go!

I my case, I don't care about what you do. I can take care of myself. It's just that you grate my nerves with your constant predatory stalking and lurking, as if to smell blood. Hey, just give it a rest, already!


(Note that posters who ignore the sort of feed back you are getting from the
community don't tend to fare well. There's no reason you can't improve the
quality of your posts. In my opinion.)


Sir! Please take your own advice...Please!

I guess what it all boils down to is this - do I give the guy negative feedback? Like I said, it's a tiny thing in the big scheme of things, but I just hate to have someone think they pulled something over on me.

For what it's worth I'd be inclined to try raising a dispute on the basis the saddle is "significantly not as described". The seller might be technically accurate in saying he only put 40 miles on it but saying it's "used" doesn't get him off the hook - it just says that he used it. If he put it on his bike, rode half a mile and took it off again it would be "used". "Only 40 miles" suggests the thing is nearly new as opposed to being some old knackered thing that he only used for a short time.

The seller has either misdescribed it or described it using deliberately misleading terms. From what people complain about on here ebay and paypal seem to side with buyers to the point of letting crooked buyers take honest sellers for a ride so you might be in with a good chance.

Maybe you'll be out the shipping back, maybe you won't. Still beats being out the full amount you paid.

At the very least I would hit him with negative feedback. Others need to know what kind of seller they are dealing with. If I was you I might file a PayPal complaint just for principle. The foundation of Ebay is dependent on honesty and the seller was not upfront.

Negative feedback is absolutely useless for buyers. The reason is that 95% of sellers I've seen will never leave their feedback until the buyer leaves theirs. Hence, for the seller it's a chance to retaliate if you gave them bad feedback. In other words if you leave them negative feedback you get it yourself even though you have paid promptly.

The last Brooks I sold on CL, the buyer wanted to know how much he increased his cool factor. He was buying a woman's version ;)
Hah!

Are you an expert in leather, saddles, or reconditioning anything? ...What makes you more qualified to make such an assessment than anyone else?
Are you? No one has any idea if you are or not. It seems really obvious that the OP isn't an expert!


No. It's your opinion that tends to be confrontational. As you appear to lurk through these threads, just to either validate or criticize so many peoples opinions, as though your opinion prevails in the confirmation, one way or another. People have a right to express their opinion, without your constant critiques. Just allow people the space to post, comment, or whatever, without your constant need to critique! ...Sometimes, you should just let it go!
Your posts generate that confrontation (and it isn't just from me). Either the issue is you OR it's all those other people.


(Note that posters who ignore the sort of feed back you are getting from the community don't tend to fare well. There's no reason you can't improve the quality of your posts. In my opinion.)
I guess you are going to ignore this. Oh well!

Are you? No one has any idea if you are or not.


Your posts generate that confrontation (and it isn't just from me). Either the issue is you OR it's all those other people.


I guess you are going to ignore this.

Just remember what I've stated!

- Slim :mad:

Just remember what I've stated!

- Slim :mad:

Meh. You could take the advice and get better. It's too bad you aren't interested.

(Since you haven't presented your credentials as an expert at saddle reconditioning, it appears that you are just blowing smoke.)

Looks like the OP assumed a lot of facts that weren't in evidence, and failed to do some due diligence before making the purchase.

Looks like the OP assumed a lot of facts that weren't in evidence, and failed to do some due diligence before making the purchase.

No, I assumed the seller was as honest as I am, but apparently that's an anomaly these days, especially on Ebay. Just where in h*ll do I get the info that this is a heavily used saddle? Description stated that it was ridden for 40 miles. That was total BS and there was no way to know that.

Looks like the OP assumed a lot of facts that weren't in evidence, and failed to do some due diligence before making the purchase.

:rolleyes: This is a weird first post. Lurk for 1.5 years and this is what we get?

:rolleyes: This is a weird first post. Lurk for 1.5 years and this is what we get?

I thought so too. Maybe it's the seller.:eek:

No, I assumed the seller was as honest as I am, but apparently that's an anomaly these days, especially on Ebay. Just where in h*ll do I get the info that this is a heavily used saddle? Description stated that it was ridden for 40 miles. That was total BS and there was no way to know that.

Hey, don't get mad at me. I am not the seller, just a member stating my opinion, as requested in the thread title. After reading the first sentence in your post that I quoted, I guess my original assessment was correct. The picture provided in the auction shows a saddle that has a lot of wear.


:rolleyes: This is a weird first post. Lurk for 1.5 years and this is what we get?

In the future, I shall make more of an effort to ensure that my posts meet your standards.

The thing is, there is a huge difference between shop wear and actual wear. I don't mind the scuffs from shop wear. It doesn't matter, anyway. I'll keep the saddle because it's too much trouble to mess with getting a refund, and I'll wait until I have a bad day and give the seller negative feedback. Maybe he'll describe his listings a bit better in the future.