General Cycling Discussion - DANGER: don't use paypal when ordering bike stuff!

i MAY have been ripped off and i thought y'all should know about how paypal REALLY works. i won't go into the details of whom i ordered from YET as i'm giving this company one last chance to make good. the owner's a cyclist so i don't want to besmirch his name without justification. for now, i'll just complain about paypal. (but as i emailed him, if this matter isn't resolved, i will gladly post the company's name and all the details of the transaction. their stuff has been discussed quite a few times on this forum...)

i ordered two biking-related dvds from this company and paid with paypal, as that's all they accept. i received only one dvd. i wrote these guys repeatedly and have received no reply. so i went to paypal to file a complaint.

now, here's the dirty little secret of paypal. when you file a complaint via their "resolution" process, you come to a screen that asks you if you received a package. and it says something like "check yes even if the package you received was empty." so i said "yes" because i did get a package, although it was missing half my stuff.

when i hit "submit" i instantaneously go this reply:

As stated in our User Agreement, PayPal's Buyer Complaint Policy only
applies to the shipment of goods and does not apply to disputes about the
attributes or quality of goods received. Therefore, we regret to inform you
that we are unable to reverse this transaction or issue a refund.


CAN YOU BELIEVE THIS BULLSH*T? paypal considers this a "quality of goods" issue, when in fact, it may be fraud. i didn't get all of what i paid for and paypal won't even bother to investigate BECAUSE I CHECKED OFF THAT I GOT A PACKAGE.

be careful with paypal folks. i'm not done with this yet, by any measure. just wanted to let you know how these clowns work so you can avoid the hassle.

of course, if this matter is resolved to my satisfaction, in fairness to all parties involved, i will post that.

did you e-mail e-bay?

did you e-mail e-bay?

this wasn't on ebay. it's a company website, but they only take paypal.

anyway, ebay owns paypal. it's the same people either way.

and yeah, i tried to resubmit the claim with paypal and basically got "sorry, this matter has been resolved."

i'm still trying though...

good luck, i really woudlt use pay pal other thn ebay in my view.

Thanks for the heads-up. Hope it works out for you

this wasn't on ebay. it's a company website, but they only take paypal.

anyway, ebay owns paypal. it's the same people either way.

and yeah, i tried to resubmit the claim with paypal and basically got "sorry, this matter has been resolved."

i'm still trying though...


oh, oops, sorry. I just assumed it was e-bay.


That sucks, I can't really think of what to do. Maybe some of the older forum members with more experience can help you.

Good luck, keep us updated.

hmm... I'm not sure what Pay Pal is supposed to do. Requiring Pay Pal to fetch the refund would be like asking your Bank to fetch a refund if you wrote out a check for the same goods (and the guy had already cashed it).

Do they offer some sort of buyer-protection deal?

You should CALL paypal. They have a number somewhere on that website you have to really search around for.... I mean REALLY do a search for. But once you get a live person, don't hang up and don't let them talk you out of finding the people in charge. Once you get a live person, they really do work to help you resolve your issues. If you go by the FAQ crap on the website, it's programmed to never resolve isuses. Go figure.

Koffee

was there a tracking number on the package? If not...say you never even got the package and refile....then they'll have to provide a tracking # w/o the tracking number paypal issues the refund themselves.

If you paid Paypal with a credit card, don't even mess around with their dispute system - just call your credit card and dispute the charges. Paypal tends to make things right pretty quickly once the credit card companies get involved, since that's their only real source of income...

-chris

CAN YOU BELIEVE THIS BULLSH*T? paypal considers this a "quality of goods" issue, when in fact, it may be fraud. i didn't get all of what i paid for and paypal won't even bother to investigate BECAUSE I CHECKED OFF THAT I GOT A PACKAGE.


Why did you expect PayPal to do anything about it? Your beef is with the seller, not PayPal. If you had paid in dollar bills would you demand cash back from the US Treasury?

Why did you expect PayPal to do anything about it? Your beef is with the seller, not PayPal. If you had paid in dollar bills would you demand cash back from the US Treasury?

read my post. my beef is with paypal because paypal has a policy for resolving complaints when sellers don't deliver but failed to honor that policy. when THEY fail to investigate a fraudulent transaction, they have failed to uphold the terms of the deal made BETWEEN ME AND PAYPAL.

remember this part?

"As stated in our User Agreement, PayPal's Buyer Complaint Policy only
applies to the shipment of goods and does not apply to disputes about the
attributes or quality of goods received."

well, i had a problem with the shipment of goods AS PER PAYPAL'S POLICY. THAT'S why i expect paypal to do something about it.

the US treasury prints money. they provide a medium of exchange. they take no responsibility for transactions, (as paypal claims to) they are in no way involved in transactions between buyers and sellers (as paypal is). your analogy doesn't apply.

and yeah, brokenrobot i did dispute the charge with my credit card. i told the folks at paypal they can have the seller ship me my dvd or refund 1/2 my money, or they can deal with my credit card and end up eating 100% of the cost plus chargeback fees. paypal's choice...

frankly i could give a damn about $23, but it's the principle of the thing...

Yeah, PayPal's dispute system has some holes in it. But if you pay with cash, check, or money order you have zip also. It's really kind of a crap shoot to buy over the internet. But I do it a lot and have been lucky all but once.

Also, I was listening to a financial advise Q&A on a national radio program the other day and the expert they had on said that disputing a credit card purchase paid through a third party such as PayPal usually won't work. PayPal legitimately collected the funds and forwarded them, so legally they did what they are supposed to do and are entitled to the money. I'm not a lawyer, just what I heard.

SS

Try Koffee's suggestion first (calling Paypal). If that fails, try brokenrobot's suggestion and dispute the Paypal charge on your credit card. If you didn't pay Paypal by credit card, take this as a cheap lesson about how not to buy something online. Fortunately, all that is at risk is the cost of one DVD.

Always pay with a credit card online. You aren't responsible for fraud and you have a very effective way of disputing payment. (Once , I was booted in a private lot even though I had put money in the box. I used a credit card to pay to have my car unbooted, and then successfully disputed the charge.) Paypal is biased towards sellers. A credit card is a buyer's best friend.

ordered two biking-related dvds from this company and paid with paypal, as that's all they accept. i received only one dvd. i wrote these guys repeatedly and have received no reply. so i went to paypal to file a complaint. Ive got bad news for ya. This aint a company its more than likely some guy that runs a online store thats too cheap to get Vera Sign. (vera sign is a company that allows you to make transactions over the enternet.) As a buisness owner myself I would be very weary of any buisness that only deals with pay pal. This usually means that the online store that you have purchased from has no actual store and probably dropships his/her merchandise. Meaning that he/she never actually touches the merchandise. Its not pay pal's fault all they do is fill in the orders its up to you and the other person to make sure everything is alright.

PAYPAL'S PHONE NUMBER IS......

402.935.2050

I quit dealing with them now that they no longer support older
computer operating systems. I'll be damned if I spend another
penny on computer crap just to surf the web. :(

if you paypal is hooked up to your credit card then you can contact the credit company and contact them for a fraud and refund. even though i hate credit cards, having one of those theif warrenties and fraud protection things is good. plus some give you bonus stuff. :P but anyways, contact your credit card company and tell them what happened. they can track it down and give you a refund

You could try the Post Office too. They don't like "mail fraud"

PayPal is useless for resolving disputes. Call the person you ordered from or your credit card company. Hindsight is 20/20 but I would avoid buying from on-line stores that "only take PayPal". IMO, this is highly suspicious.

Reporting it as fraud is a good idea. You might not get much play if you are the first to complain, but complaints can add up, and somebody has to be first. You should complain to the following law enforcement agencies:

Post Office
Your Attorney General's Office
Seller's Attorney General's Office
Your police department
Seller's police department

PayPal works for me this way.

I "do not" link it to my personal bank account rather my credit card.

If I have a problem(twice) I dispute the charge via my credit card company and that's the end of it.

There is a $2000 limitation when PayPal is linked to a credit card; however you can cancel the PayPal account and open a new account to get another $2000 limit. I have done this and it works.

PayPal is useless for resolving disputes. Call the person you ordered from or your credit card company. Hindsight is 20/20 but I would avoid buying from on-line stores that "only take PayPal". IMO, this is highly suspicious.

Over the past 4 years, I've lost about $150.00 dollars from Ebay and Paypal. If you go to the Ebay forums, you'll find out that Paypal has been sued by several states and had to settle. It amazes me how these two entities continue to operate even though tens of MILLIONS in fraud goes unpunished on their website.

Ebay and Paypal are wonderful systems but when fraud is committed, they don't want to know you!

Paypal is designed to protect sellers, not buyers. It's motto should be "let the buyer beware."

Paypal actually brags to sellers that it "works hard to protect sellers." (http://www.paypal.com)

Paypal also boasts that it "fights chargebacks to help your business avoid losses." (https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=xpt/bizui/BusinessSecurity-outside) On another page, it claims, "We actively fight chargebacks." (https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/mer/solution_moreinfo-outside)

Finally, Paypal explains that "PayPal and the seller work together to dispute a chargeback with the buyer’s credit card company[.]" (https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=xpt/seller/ChargebackRisk-outside)

It would be very unwise to buy anything through Paypal unless you have to. If you must use Paypal, use a credit card.

well, a few threats and a complaint to my credit card got paypal to "re-open the investigation."

i hate paypal. i only use it on the rare occasion when there's no other choice. have you noticed how they always rig your account to default options that make it the easiest for them to get away with crap? for example, i had to get "verified" with a bank account cuz i wanted to unload a bunch of junk on ebay and figured this would be easiest way to get payment. so now, anytime i purchase something with paypal, no matter what i do, it tries to take the money from the bank account by default. and when i specify to use a credit card, i get taken to a screen that starts questioning my preference. "are you sure? here's a list of advantages of using your bank account."

yeah right. the only advantage is to paypal because then you have no recourse in the event of fraud.

end of rant. i hope...

y'all might find this interesting:

http://www.paypalsucks.com/

That website is linked from all the "Fake bike shops" e.g. AKRON BIKES.

I have asked before and I will ask again(since no one has a good answer yet) Name a better way for for two individuals that do not know each other and do not have business contracts with a credit card company to perform a transaction. One side is always at risk for the screw. You can send a personal check, but if I got a personal chack and there were any question at all I would have a thirty day wait to confirm that the money was there to stay(We have had people reverse payment on a check) Credit cards can be stolen or numbers ripped. We even had a customer dispute a card purchase on an item that he had not returned and was working. It takes forever to straighten this crap out. Lots of scammers are faking cashiers checks and money orders.

www.paypalsucks might be a legitimate site but I sure as hell would never buy from any ebayer that lists them as the reason they do not use paypal, AkronBikes for example.

And if you are really worried about getting screwed you could always buy local, then you get a real person to deal with if there is a problem.

I haven't read thru the whole thread but MAKE SURE you complain to PayPal about it WITHIN 30 days of the transation or they will dismiss your claim COLD.

umm paypal is nothing more than a means for online retailers to accept credit cards, it's not their issue so why complain to them. if you have an issue you can't resolve with the seller call the credit company.
god I thought that was common knowledge.

just saw this article today when i went to check my e-mail.

thought you guys might liek to read it:

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/Banking/P66061.asp

y'all might find this interesting:

http://www.paypalsucks.com/

Very old news.

I have no problems with paypal, because I never trusted them an inch to begin with.
In a couple hundred transactions, I've had 100% success moving money with them.
Even IF I get burned a couple of times in the future I'll still be WAY better off than if I had paid
retail on all this stuff. People who are good at weighing risks do well with PayPal. People who
are bad at weighing risks will be burned using PayPal. Just whatever you do, don't give them
access to a bank account with more than pocket-change in it.

just saw this article today when i went to check my e-mail.

thought you guys might liek to read it:

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/Banking/P66061.asp

Yeah, I got burned with a double-charge on a debit card years ago. Once the money is taken
out of your bank account it is G-O-N-E and the bank will NOT help you get it back.
Never used a debit card since.

Rev. Chuck, the sites that refuse to use paypal probably also would not accept a credit card. And if we pay with a credit card, we are protected against fraud. I'm not worried that somebody might take my steal my credit card number. If they do, I won't have to pay because I'll report it as soon as I see the first statement.

I understand that, as a seller, you would prefer Paypal. Paypal makes it harder for dishonest customers to cheat you. But Paypal also makes it easier for dishonest sellers to cheat honest customers.

As a buyer, paying with a credit card also gives me leverage I wouldn't otherwise have during a dispute. I mentioned earlier that my credit card company backed me up when a parking lot charged me a fee to unboot my car even though I had already paid. I had a dispute with a former ISP that billed me for a month they promissed would be free. After multiple phone calls, the ISP said they would only consider reversing the charge if I wrote to certain address. They wouldn't give me a person to talk to or promised date to respond. I called my credit card company and the charge disappeared immediately.

Basically:

Paypal can put the risk of seller fraud to the customer.
Credit cards can put the risk of buyer fraud on the seller.
Paypal puts bargaining power in the hands of the seller.
Credit cards put bargaining power in the hands of buyers.
As an honest buyer, why would I ever want to use Paypal?

As an honest buyer, why would I ever want to use Paypal?

Because bkrownd takes PayPal, but he don't take American Express.

I'm with those who thinks this isn't about Paypal...

Why are you protecting the Seller, and dissing Paypal? I've read your answer, but really...do you expect paypal to be an escrow service for free? No way!

The seller ripped you off here...take them to task.

this wasn't on ebay. it's a company website, but they only take paypal.

anyway, ebay owns paypal. it's the same people either way.

and yeah, i tried to resubmit the claim with paypal and basically got "sorry, this matter has been resolved."

i'm still trying though...

email them

I'm with those who thinks this isn't about Paypal...

Why are you protecting the Seller, and dissing Paypal? I've read your answer, but really...do you expect paypal to be an escrow service for free? No way!

The seller ripped you off here...take them to task.

paypal do give the impression that when you use them that you have some protection against fraud. This is not the first case that I have read where this alleged protection vanishes as soon as something goes wrong. I read another case where a buyer saw a guarantee from paypal that they would protect sellers from fraud to the value of 400 dollars. The buyer was ripped off and tried to claim from paypal only to find out that the 400 dollars was per seller not per buyer. Hence, since the seller had ripped off hundreds of people the buyer had effectively no protection.

You might as just send your cash in a brown envelope as use paypal. If they just admitted it then I would have no problem but they dont.