Training & Nutrition - Recovery

My question is spawned by the “Which Energy Drink” thread. Since it goes in a slightly different direction, I’ll post it as a separate one.

In that thread there was discussion of making a recovery drink—in that case it was a mix of milk and sugar. The theory was milk would give back proteins and stop muscle breakdown and the sugar would replenish carbohydrates. Although I'm doubtful about the table sugar, I believe the part about replenishing carbos. But, my question concerns whether it works for protein. Does the infusion of proteins help stop the muscle breakdown caused by a workout?

By the way, I would think that yogurt would also do the trick—and a fruit yogurt would contain fructose rather than sucrose (with a more “natural” yogurt in any case). A favorite of mine is yogurt mixed with granola or müesli. As we say here in the Rheinland: Lecker! (delicious).

Cheers,
Jamie

well, i haven't read the Energy Drink thread...i'll have to go back and read it...and i'm not a nutrition expert...

but as far as i understand, the muscle breakdown has pretty much already occurred during the workout and what you need is the proper ingredients to REBUILD - thus in the 1-2 days after a hard workout protein is particularly important - but in general eating/drinking in the first 3-4 hours after a hard workout is probably most important so that your body has enough energy since the energy stores may have been exhausted. then in the next 1-2 days during the recovery time, getting the right mix of all the right nutrients plus lots of protein for full and fast recovery...

there are some energy drinks that are supposed to help rid the body of the byproducts of extreme workout like lactic acid and such (i think Revenge or Endurox is one of them but i can't remeber which touts what)... don't know much about these... i bought one of each about 2 years ago and the Revenge tasted horrible so i couldn't drink it and the Endorux seemed to work, but it's hard to tell b/c you have no control for comparison...

I'm on pretty thin ice, here, since I really haven't done enough research to develop an informed opinion. Still, this is the internet, so I won't let that stop me. ;)

Table sugar is recommended because it is absorbed very quickly. Normally, that's a bad thing, and I think that advice is most appropriate following major exertion, like a race, interval training, or other very difficult workout.

Regarding the protein component, I think this was put forth by an exercise physiologist named Edmund Burke (http://www.optimalmusclerecovery.com/about.htm). I've seen articles by him on the subject, maybe on some coaching or sports drink web-sites.

I have read that the protein requirements of aerobic atheletes are not that much higher than inactive people. You do not have to ingest large amounts of protein. But eating a sweetened yogurt won't hurt.

Also, I would avoid too much sweet food. Some sweets right after a hard ride are probably harmless. But diabetes is epidemic right now and for a reason. Ingesting large amounts of sweets is not a good thing.

I haven't read that post either, but I do know Ed Burke's work. He's excellent. He's also an advisor for schwinn. You can subscribe to the schwinn fitfacts newsletter and read articles by Ed Burke. Go to www.schwinn.com to register under schwinn fitness academy for the newsletter. Dr. Burke has some great stuff to say.

As far as the amount of protein needed after working out, from what I've read, the average recreational athlete doesn't need that much more protein than the average individual. For the athlete that does a lot of muscular work (ie- weightlifters), they would need more protein than the average recreational athlete. I can't remember the ratio of kg of body fat to protein, but I'll look it up in my books at some point soon. It is true that the protein is needed for the recovery of the muscle. When the muscle is stressed and torn during the workout, it's the time off after the workout that aids in the repair of the muscle. As the muscle repairs, it can thicken and grow. As a result, a lot of athletes think they can aid this process by eating large amounts of protein. They believe that the injested protein is broken down into amino acids- the same amino acids that are used by the body to build our muscles (our muscle fibers are made of long chains of amino acids). Currently, this theory is being debated like crazy. I still haven't gotten any real responses yet from the lectures I've attended, but I am supposed to be attending lectures all this weekend, so I'll ask some of the leading experts what they think about it.

I do believe strongly in creatine phospate as a supplement that aids in muscle recovery. While creatine phosphate does NOTHING for athletes who train in endurance (aerobic) sports, for athletes training in anaerobic, strenuous training, studies show that the use of creatine phosphate aids greatly in muscle recovery. Loosely explained, when muscle is stressed anaerobically, the ATP stores in the muscle are spent, leaving ADP. As it takes time for the body to rebuild the ATP stores, the creatine phosphate provides the extra phospate group needed to rebuild the ATP stores a lot quicker. As a result, the recovery time is quicker, and you can take a shorter recovery time before returning to your training. At the same time, since you are increasing your workouts, your muscles become stressed from the intensity and increased amounts of workouts, and they will grow.

Anyway, of course, I am not a doctor or any type of expert in the field advocating the use of supplements without going to see your primary physician first and getting advice from them.

As far as athletes concerned with endurance training (aerobic training), it's a different story. Athletes undergoing aerobic training are mainly concerned with rebuilding carbohydrate stores after a long workout. Athletes are also concerned with rebuilding carbohydrate stores because if they are training on a regular basis, they would need to make sure they had enough carbohydrates stored in the body to sustain the longer workouts. A lot of recreational athletes believe that if they skipped dinner and came in early in the morning and completed an aerobic activity, they would be using all fat stores as energy because they believe they had low carbohydrate stores (keeping in mind that carbohydrate reserves in the body are used by the body during workouts as energy) first thing in the morning. The problem with that theory is that with lack of carbohydrates, the body cannot sustain any aerobic activity for long periods of time. As a result, the aerobic activity is compromised, and the workout time is shortened, which is the opposite of what the exerciser wanted. So, it's important that anyone wanting to enhance their recovery take carbohydrates soon after exercise. It is also equally important that athletes be sure they have enough carobohydrates before the exercise too.

All right, as I said, I'll be attending lectures all weekend, so I'll get some solid information and post them if they look valid. Oh, Dr. Leonard Kravitz is another great reference to look up for studies on exercise. He's one of the best lecturers I've seen yet.


Koffee

Originally posted by Koffee Brown
A lot of recreational athletes believe that if they skipped dinner and came in early in the morning and completed an aerobic activity, they would be using all fat stores as energy because they believe they had low carbohydrate stores

Briefly off topic... One author, maybe Arnie Baker, says "fat burns in the flame of carbohydrate."

Koffee,

from what i've read and heard from trainers as well as my own personal experience, i agree with almost all of what you said there...

i have been using creatine supplements on and off for 4 years now. i'll take it for a month and then break for a month or more - mostly for weight training but also for short-burst sprint power and jumping (i play vollebal and 2 years ago when i was training i had a 36" vertical) -- i race mountain bikes although sprinting and power climbs are my real strengths - i have lots of fast-twitch muscle fibers. For building muscle strength creatine is great, but as you said for typical cycling it's not much help since the muscles it builds are mostly used for the anerobic 10-second to 2-minute power burst which isn't much help in a century or long ride...

when i first started using creatine it helped my gain muscle mass - after years of working out and never gaining weight/muscle, i was able to gain 15lbs of muscle in 1 1/2 years AND maintain my fat% at around 5-6% by doing a combination of ALL the following:
* lifting weights 5-6 days per week, 2 muscle groups per session with minmum 2 days between exercise of a given muscle group
* eating, eating and eating - especially lots of chicken and pasta
* creatine
* my 'normal' cycling, running, volleyball, etc.

again, the value of this for cycling is debatable - for mountain biking i feel it helps me with strength for technical stuff and i don't get tired in the back/arms, etc. - so it helps, but then i also have 15lbs extra to pedal everywhere...

if you do a major ride with lots of climbing and have sore muscles, i'd say eating a little extra protein is a good idea (no mass doses needed), but for most cycling recovery, as Koffee said, replinishing your energy stores is what you need.

this year i'm really trying to plan recovery into my training schedule so that i avoid overtraining which i know i've done a lot of in the past.

Creatine is excellent for bodybuilders....

Back in the day when I was lifting heavy a lot, I wasn't seeing a lot of results. I went to the GNC, and the guy recommended creatine. I was skeptical, but he said if it didn't work within 6 weeks, he'd give my money back. Well, after a month, I saw a tremendous increase in my muscle mass. My lifting increased, and I saw a big drop in my weight as well. I used it for a couple of years. Nowadays, I'm pretty lazy, but once I return from my trip, I will start rebuilding my muscle mass, and I will go back on the creatine too.

It's great for weightlifters... but yeah... won't do much for people doing aerobic activity.


Koffee

Just a quick thanks for all the info. I am definitely going to keep my concentration on the glycogen. I'm already pretty good about carbo loading (before and afterward). All the info about protein, creatine, and fast-twitch muscle fibers is quite interesting. I'll confess I have never heard of creatine before.

I would like to get my climbing speed back to where it was before my 10-year cycling hiatus, so it might be worth a try. But, as cool as it would be to watch my thighs balloon out into massive tree trunks, my training goals probably call for very limited use of it. (I'm not hoping to challenge Nathan at the Volleyball net!)

How is it taken (pill, powder, ???)? Where does one get it in Germany (sports store, Apotheke, DM-Markt)?

Cheers,
Jamie

i buy my creatine at GNC in the US - bought more when i was back in the US for xMas - in Europe i have no idea - have not tried to look for any.

it comes in many forms - most often as powder, tablets or mixed in a sports drink. i find the powder best b/c you can determine the exact amount and mix it with whatever juice - supposedly best absorbed with grape juice... but that's just what i've heard.

it's not cheap - my big big bottle which should last me 1-2 years cost $50 (i've used 2 bottles in the last 3 years) - but then like i said i phase on and off and often don't use any for 5 months or more.

in general for cycling, eating well and balanced with loading 1-2 days before and then eating immediately after is sufficient as far as protein or anything special - and then of course maintaining calories for enegry during the ride - i personally like to use sports mix (like the Powerbar drinkx mix) in my water so i get energy as i drink

If you guys are wanting to get into the creatine thing, I suggest you all find some buddies out here in the states that can shop for you and send it back. I frequently send stuff over to my friends abroad for their supplements. For the record, I NEVER go to GNC- they are a big ole rip off. Creatine is about a dime a dozen (at least in Illinois it is). I can get a bucket of it for less money than I pay for a bucket of chicken at KFC. I pay about 13 bucks for my bucket of creatine...

I'll also check some websites to see where foreigners can order this stuff at a discount. There has to be a way for you guys to access your supplements cheaper than buying it at some GNC or something along those lines.


Koffee

I've never tried it - I need to lose weight rather than gain it, but creatine is widly available in health food shops over here.

Richard

I saw Creatine in a sports store today (Sport Arena--which is owned by Kaufhof). The prices seemed similar or a bit more than what Nathan quoted. So it is available in Germany.