Touring - Brifters vs Barcons for mountain bike tourer.

This is one that will boil the blood of many I'm sure!

I'm trying to accumulate parts for me and my girlfriends upcoming tour of France this summer. Of course this means endless decisions about gear choices and this one in particular seems to be one of the most contentious.

I've decided that drops are probably going to be our best option as although we are going to be doing a lot of tame off roading, (Both confident mountain bikers) the idea of a few more hand positions and extreme aero alp descending sounds awfully fun! Plus we have more old school bar stem combo's to fit 1" steerer's (3 or 4) than 1" to 1 1/8" adaptors for our current cockpits. (0)

Of course this renders our rapidfire pods pretty useless and that's where my question comes in. Now I personally like the sound of the convenience, comfort and tidyness of Brifters. However, the many horror stories about the lack of spare parts, general lack of durability and the cost makes me humm and haw ever so.

On the other hand the reliability, friction mode and availability of parts for bar shifters is a big bonus. But they tend to have messy cable routing when used with bars without cable grooves, I can't imagine are very easy to use off road and seem pretty limited/nearly as expensive in 9sp options. As for brake levers, I'm rather fond of old school weinmann levers and would be comfortable using them unless I found an ultra bargain. (Cheapness is key!)

Now, I've looked at RetroShift options and weigh them in as very good value for money but are still a bit out of my range price wise and there seems to be no availability for them in the second hand market. I've also toyed with the idea of converting the copious amount of thumbies I seem to have accumulated into barcons but this seems like it would be a bit of a disaster waiting to happen. (If anyone wants to convince me otherwise, please, do!)

So in summary I guess what I am asking is what do you all reckon I should go for in my specific circumstances? I know I'm a bit hazy, but it's so fiercely debated I feel I have to be neutral ;)

Before it's asked, we will only be using canti's and a U-Brake for my girlfriends rear brake so there will be no lever compatibility issues.

Edit- And if you have any of either for sale for much cheapness, PM away!

Both have merit and will work well. I find brifters are better for trails. It's great to be able to shift from more than one hand position. I find it important to be able to shift without losing grip or changing hand position when covering technical terrain.

These are my sentiments exactly but I've very concerned about durability in the long run. I am trying to do this on the cheapest possible budget. (Think picking my Muddyfox Sorcerer frameset out a roadside rubbish bin.)

With this thread I'm just trying to asses through opinions of others whether I should prioritise brifters over anything else just now (:

Brifters. You're going to France, not Africa. If they break, just replace them.

These are my sentiments exactly but I've very concerned about durability in the long run. I am trying to do this on the cheapest possible budget. (Think picking my Muddyfox Sorcerer frameset out a roadside rubbish bin.)

With this thread I'm just trying to asses through opinions of others whether I should prioritise brifters over anything else just now (:

I find that bar-cons & brake levers will cost about $125 to $140 for new items on eBay and that Shimano Tiagra or 105 brifters cost $160 to $190. I don't consider the added cost of brifters to be a deal breaker.

I have about 15,000 miles on a set of 105 brifters and they are very durable.

"Of course this renders our rapidfire pods pretty useless and that's where my question comes in." --Jacque Lucque

Are you converting a pair of mountain bikes? If you already don't know, indexing road shifters don't work with mountain group FDs except in rare circumstances. Bar end shifters will work as the front is friction.

Another option is to use a butterfly handle bar rather than the drop handle bars. Compatible with mountain bike shifters, many hand positions, but lacking a really aero position.

Brad

Brifters just went on my **** list...I have a set of RSX? That quit working...can't buy parts can't buy replacements. I have another bike that is almost 40 years old with Suntour Barcons on it, they still work after tens of thousands of miles. Personal choice? Bar ends pure and simple. The newer ones I have can be switched to friction in a pinch, not so with brifters.

Aaron :)

Personal preference obviously plays a large role in choosing here. That said...

I find barcons to be pretty awkward. They get bumped when parked. They get bumped by my knees when getting under way. In addition to getting bumped out of the gear I wanted, I have had some nasty bruises from them. I don't find the location especially convenient.

For tall folks or ones who like higher bars it might be different, but since I like my bars low, down tube shifters are at about the same height as bar ends for me and I actually find them easier to reach for. Back in the 70s I wanted to like them, but after a long trial took them off and went back to down tube shifters.

I really like how STI Brifters function. They are far and away the most convenient. From all of the hand positions that I use much I can either shift without moving my hands on the bar or only need to move them a couple inches. The exception is the middle of the bar, but I use that hand position very little.

Brifters are pretty reliable and if you want a backup for crossing Mongolia you can carry a set of down tube shifters as spares.

Cost of replacement is a downside for brifters, but they are durable enough that I don't worry about it.

I do also like down tube shifters fairly well. I consider them my second choice when it comes to ergonomics and my first choice for reliability and simplicity. I like them well enough that I decided to run them on my ultralight touring setup.

Just me, but I wouldn't even consider barcons and would go as far as replacing them if I had a bike that came with them.

BTW, if I wanted an upright posture and rode with my hands on the middle of the bars a lot as some do, I would go for stem shifters. I think they make more sense than barcons for more upright riders. The down side is that I don't know if anyone makes them these days. I remember some really nice Suntour ones from 35 or 40 years ago.

Brifters just went on my **** list...I have a set of RSX? That quit working...can't buy parts can't buy replacements.

Aaron :)


I replaced my daughter's RSX shifters with a set of Sora shifters on her Volpe for not much dinero.

Brad

I replaced my daughter's RSX shifters with a set of Sora shifters on her Volpe for not much dinero.

Brad

What is the gearing? Mine are 3x7...

Aaron :)

I'd vote for Kelly Take Off's (http://kellybike.com/2nd_xtra_takeoff.html). Those run $50 a set. $30 for some downtube shifters on ebay (I think that's what I got mine for because I wanted indexing, if you want friction you can pay less), and then another $30 for some nice tektro aero levers. That'll put you at $110, though if you're coming from mountain biking and plan to spend a lot of time on the tops of your bars you can throw some cross-style interrupters on there for another $30. At that point you're at $140 for your brake/shifter solutions, which isn't cheap but is more or less bomb proof. The nice thing about the take offs is that you can shift from the tops and the hoods equally easily (though shifting from the drops can be a bear).
http://kellybike.com/images/kelly_takeoff_photo.jpg

The Retroshifts might be another good option.

Sun Tour powerRatchet bar ends, mine have been working fine for 25 + years..
3 by 6 or 7.

several European + British Isles tours, 88,91,97.

Sun Tour powerRatchet bar ends, mine have been working fine for 25 + years..
3 by 6 or 7.

I have a couple sets of those on 2x5 and 3x5...just scored a couple more sets off of Ebay, just because they might come in handy.

Aaron :)

Getting drop bars to work with v brakes, low gears, bar bags, with any field serviceability is not easy. That is why we resort to bar-end shifters with (hard to find) long pull brake levers.
If I was starting out with an MTB base for my tourer I think I would make life easy by using trekking style butterfly bars with std MTB components. I would prefer separate brake levers and shifter pods or thumb-levers.
Most people who are touring seem to use this solution. Very few actually tour on traditional drop-bar touring bikes.

If you have sets of old Shimano thumbies lying around they can be converted to barend shifters with a little bit of grinding since they are meant for slightly smaller bartubes than a roadbar. Aluminum is easy to grind so it does not take much effort to get it done. I used a set of old XT 6-speed thumbies on roadbars for many miles without problems. My Cyclocross bike is now set up with 9-speed DA-barends in frictionmode running a triple front with a wide 10-speed Mtb cassette with Tektro long throw roadbarlevers pulling old XTR V-brakes. Works very well.

I am trying MircoShift shifters with an older RSX front derailluer over a XT crank using Tektro RX5 mini V brakes. Shifting is good and I have just installed the brakes and waiting to test them. While the brakes seem to be adequate they need to be set up quite close to the rim so as not have the levers bottom out. However I am trying to avoid using Travel Agents on the brakes.

I just cannot like bar-con's or cantilever brakes.

I have tried XT RapidFire setup but I have hand issues that I don't have with drop bars.

Dash, hadn't thought of front derailleur compatibility at all! I am swinging to the brifter side of things and I could cope with losing out on my XTR front mech for the sake of the cost of a cheap second hand triple road mech or some shiftmate device.

I haven't even bought a front mech for my girlfriend so I still definetly have the option of picking up a road mech. I have however picked up a lightly used Deore XT m770 rear mech for £3 for her with a missing jockey wheel. Bargain!

This is all great information and I'm building up a pretty good opinion. Especially when I've found Sora shifters relatively cheap on Chainreaction cycles and I have discount vouchers hanging around!

Cheers guys.

Oh and to confirm, I'm not not not not using V Brakes, so no worries!

Oh and I meant to ask @plodderslusk (http://www.bikeforums.net/member.php/20568-plodderslusk), do you have any real life experience with the thumbie conversion? Sounds like a good use of old thumbies if anything!

And do any of you forsee any issues with me using a mountain bike chainset with a road front derailleur? I can't imagine any other than making sure I pick up a three speed ;)

Get brifters if you can afford them, barcons if you have only $100, or DT friction shifters if you have only $50 and your frame has the bosses.

Brifters just went on my **** list...I have a set of RSX? That quit working...can't buy parts can't buy replacements. I have another bike that is almost 40 years old with Suntour Barcons on it, they still work after tens of thousands of miles. Personal choice? Bar ends pure and simple. The newer ones I have can be switched to friction in a pinch, not so with brifters.

Aaron :)

Really? You are going to fault a set of cheap shifters that are probably 15 years old because they finally stopped working? RSX was the very bottom of the road bike line in 1997 and probably cost around $100. Over 15 years of use cost you $6 per year. That's just exorbitant:rolleyes: Even if you paid $200 for them, they still gave you a pretty good value.

For comparison, how many of your household appliances are 15 years old? Do your cars last that long? How many 15 year old computers do you have in your house? Do you have a 15 year old cell phone?

A set of 15 year old shifters that went to their final resting place deserve kudos for years of faithful service.

Now I personally like the sound of the convenience, comfort and tidyness of Brifters. However, the many horror stories about the lack of spare parts, general lack of durability and the cost makes me humm and haw ever so.



The stories about STI being delicate are way overblown. I've crashed straight onto the levers of a road bike and never suffered any issues with them. I've never had a problem with them while using them extensively for commuting, touring and road riding. The only ones I've ever had a problem with were the first generation 10 speed 105's (on someone else's bike) but that was a manufacturing problem that was fixed by Shimano.

You may have other reasons for not using STI...not that I can think of any...but the ruggedness of the component shouldn't be a consideration.

What is the gearing? Mine are 3x7...

Aaron :)

2X7

Brad

Really? You are going to fault a set of cheap shifters that are probably 15 years old because they finally stopped working? RSX was the very bottom of the road bike line in 1997 and probably cost around $100. Over 15 years of use cost you $6 per year. That's just exorbitant:rolleyes: Even if you paid $200 for them, they still gave you a pretty good value.

For comparison, how many of your household appliances are 15 years old? Do your cars last that long? How many 15 year old computers do you have in your house? Do you have a 15 year old cell phone?

A set of 15 year old shifters that went to their final resting place deserve kudos for years of faithful service.

I have several 15 year old vehicles in daily use, I also have tractors still being used that are over 35 years old.

The brifters were only in use for 2-3 years and then the bike was parked for the next several years. Yes they were the bottom of the line, but at the time they were purchased 6-7 years ago they were the only choice for 3x7 gearing. My point being...don't expect to find repair parts or replacements for ANYTHING these days. I find it somewhat ironic that I can buy parts for a 40-50 year old Raleigh bicycle, but can't buy parts for something that was built less than 10 years ago. And that goes for just about everything. As a side note, I was in my LBS the other day...broken brifter on a bike that is less than 3 years old, replacement the only option, and the version that was on there is NLA, so what do you do? Spend 1/2 the price of a new bike to upgrade the entire drive train to be compatible?

I am not into conspicuous consumption or throw away products. There is no reason for manufacturers to continue to crank out non-repairable items, nor continuously churn or obsolesce products in the name of improvement, except to support consumerism and chase profits. I choose NOT to support those goals.

I don't expect a product to last indefinitely, but I do expect a reasonable life time. I guess I should junk a low mileage car just because the key broke off in the ignition switch making impossible to start?

Edit: My oldest laptop is a 1999 Compaq Presario. Currently running anything but Windoze. My main lap top is pushing 5 years old which according to my IT guy is about 80 years old in human years :D. I also happen to have a TRS-80 that will still boot up :D

Aaron :)

From a touring perspective my personal preference would be downtube shifters, then barcons and brifters LAST! No, I'm not against progress, I just like to keep my life simple. And just for the record I do have a brand new set of shiny Ultegra 6700 brifters sitting in a drawer and I'd still put on a set of Dura Ace down tube shifters on a tourer first.

My 'issue' with brifters is pretty simple - their positioning makes them one of the first things to hit the ground when the bike goes over. So on behalf of one brifter owner who braked on a beach area to avoid a child, I've had to spend a couple hours flushing sand out of the right hand brifter assembly; and on behalf of another, I've had to replace the whole assembly because the wind blew over his loaded tourer while it was parked in a bicycle rack. The wheel also needed truing but that was a lot less expensive.

There are cages to protect rear derailleurs in the event of a crash, and on a MTB I can use barends to protect the controls, but there's nothing available to protect brifters that I'm aware of so I leave them to the road racing fans. When I'm touring the bike is the last thing I want to have to be concerned about.

And do any of you forsee any issues with me using a mountain bike chainset with a road front derailleur? I can't imagine any other than making sure I pick up a three speed ;)

The combo should be fine.

Brad

I have several 15 year old vehicles in daily use, I also have tractors still being used that are over 35 years old.

The brifters were only in use for 2-3 years and then the bike was parked for the next several years. Yes they were the bottom of the line, but at the time they were purchased 6-7 years ago they were the only choice for 3x7 gearing. My point being...don't expect to find repair parts or replacements for ANYTHING these days. I find it somewhat ironic that I can buy parts for a 40-50 year old Raleigh bicycle, but can't buy parts for something that was built less than 10 years ago. And that goes for just about everything. As a side note, I was in my LBS the other day...broken brifter on a bike that is less than 3 years old, replacement the only option, and the version that was on there is NLA, so what do you do? Spend 1/2 the price of a new bike to upgrade the entire drive train to be compatible?

I am not into conspicuous consumption or throw away products. There is no reason for manufacturers to continue to crank out non-repairable items, nor continuously churn or obsolesce products in the name of improvement, except to support consumerism and chase profits. I choose NOT to support those goals.

I don't expect a product to last indefinitely, but I do expect a reasonable life time. I guess I should junk a low mileage car just because the key broke off in the ignition switch making impossible to start?

Edit: My oldest laptop is a 1999 Compaq Presario. Currently running anything but Windoze. My main lap top is pushing 5 years old which according to my IT guy is about 80 years old in human years :D. I also happen to have a TRS-80 that will still boot up :D

Aaron :)

First, take a car and drive for 2 or 3 years and park it in a garage for several years. Bet it doesn't work all that well when you go out to start it up. Are you sure the shifters are broken and not just gummed up?

As for replacement vs repair, that's been the norm in all industries for nearly 30 years. If the transmission on your car goes out, it's cheaper to replace the whole unit than to tear it down and repair it. Even if just part of the shifter linkage...to use an analogy that is closer to the shift levers on a bike...breaks, you will probably have a easier time finding the entire linkage than just the broken part. Electronic parts are certainly replacement items only.

If you want a real nightmare scenario, try finding replacement parts for scientific equipment that is older than 5 years.

What are you doing to your shifters? I've owned 45+ bikes (32 of them mine, the rest my family's) and only had to deal with one broken shifter. And that one wasn't even on my hard ridden and hard abused bikes.

The stories about STI being delicate are way overblown. I've crashed straight onto the levers of a road bike and never suffered any issues with them. I've never had a problem with them while using them extensively for commuting, touring and road riding. The only ones I've ever had a problem with were the first generation 10 speed 105's (on someone else's bike) but that was a manufacturing problem that was fixed by Shimano.

You may have other reasons for not using STI...not that I can think of any...but the ruggedness of the component shouldn't be a consideration.

+1

The right (rear) barcon on my 1994 Trek 520 is about to bite the dust and won't index properly. The left won't hold the front DR in place as well as I'd like. I'm running 8 speeds, having upgraded from 7 speeds some years back.

I plan to upgrade to 9 speed with the new Tiagra shifters and IRD front DR. Yes, they're not Ultegra or 105, but you get the shifting and ergo of the newer generation stuff, and still readily available.

You may want to take a look at the old (but great) Suntour Command shifters, if you can get them cheap.
Micro-indexed (or friction) RH, friction LH to operate a mountain FD.
Excellent mounting position for drop bars, shiftable from hoods and drops, no bumping, reliable, good ergonomics.
I recently acquired a set after much searching, got them for a great price (so low I'm ashamed to share it here) from a BF member.

Another vote for Kellys -they are my go to setup on my touring bikes (while the actual shifters aren't included, you did say you had some lever shifters anyway.)

For me the Kellys incorporate everything good about the old friction/index DT shifters combined with the ease of placement for the hands. I'd also consider them to be the toughest option (though in reality I also wonder how exposed brifters are, and how many break anyway) as they shelter the shifters inside the handlebars. If you manage to break them, you've got to have been in a crash that would leave you with more concerns than just gear shifting.....

Big 2 thumbs up for me.



I'd vote for Kelly Take Off's (http://kellybike.com/2nd_xtra_takeoff.html). Those run $50 a set. $30 for some downtube shifters on ebay (I think that's what I got mine for because I wanted indexing, if you want friction you can pay less), and then another $30 for some nice tektro aero levers. That'll put you at $110, though if you're coming from mountain biking and plan to spend a lot of time on the tops of your bars you can throw some cross-style interrupters on there for another $30. At that point you're at $140 for your brake/shifter solutions, which isn't cheap but is more or less bomb proof. The nice thing about the take offs is that you can shift from the tops and the hoods equally easily (though shifting from the drops can be a bear).
http://kellybike.com/images/kelly_takeoff_photo.jpg

Delicate? I'm not convinced that STI's are any more 'delicate' than any other brake lever. The difference is that in Canada at least, those Ultegra 6700 carbon models go for $700 whereas a Tektro or Shimano brake lever set is $60 and much easier to find in stock even in shop in a small town. Things may be different in different countries, here parts for Shimano components aren't guaranteed to be available when you need them and brifters certainly aren't what I would consider 'field servicable'.

If anyone else has had no issues after a crash I'd chock that up to good luck. I might be being overly conservative, but when I do a Google search on 'STI crash damage' I come up with a full deck so personally I'll stick with DT shifters for now. I already have a couple bikes that have had parts backordered for two years now.

That and the fact that I run 42cm bars and a large Arkel bar-bag means than for me personally there wouldn't be any real advantage to an STI set-up over what I have now.

I'd love to know where you are finding STI shifters for $60! (:

Went to chat to one of my LBS' today and I could pick up a set of Sora 8 Speed shifters for £99, (I could cope with losing out on one gear...) which is pretty ideal.

As for concerns about brifters being the first point of impact for crashes, this seems like a pretty genuine concern. When the brifters had to be flushed out of sand/grime, was this just a WD40 and patience job? Did they perform as before? How do CX'rs get around these issues in their mucky play?

All invaluable forsights guys

Mmmmmm ... That was sorta my point. I was talking about Shimano BL-R600 brake levers which are NOT STI but which are an Ultegra quality brake lever and what I'm currently using with indexed DT shifters.

The brifter that was sand-contaminated was a 105 and to avoid having to remove the brifter the bike was hung upside down and a spray bottle of WD40 was used to flush the mechanism until no more sand came out and the shifter functioned without any indications of grit. It was amazing just how much sand ended up on the bottom of the bucket! The WD40 could be strained using a paper towel and a paint filter and reused on the parts washer which is good because it took over 1.5 liters to do the job.


Cyclocross bikes would probably have their share of issues but anyone seriously racing I'd think would be doing a lot more maintenance and would have another bike for the street. I don't know any pros doing cyclocross, just a few doing downhill and road. Their bikes get torn down regularly.


STI offers some definate advantages in competition. Touring, or around town I've never been so pushed for time that fractions of a second would count in making a shift. In fact there's usually lots of opportunity to plan ahead.


I'm personally also running a 7 speed rear cassette on a ten speed hub simply because I don't 'need' all the gears and it gives better drivetrain life. But if / when that bike gets moved to 10 speed it'll likely be with Shimano DuraAce DT shifters which only run about $90. The brake pads are the same as what's used with brifters, the braking mechanical advantage is the same, the hood position is very similar, the gear inches don't change because of brifters and IMO the 'convenience' is minimal. But someone else may not be able to live without them - to each his own.

Edit: I do have a Specialized Roubaix Ultegra Expert hanging on my wall which has a complete Ultegra groupo including STI brifters and an Ultegra wheelset. I don't personally consider that frame or wheelset suitable for loaded touring. The brifters are IMO also less than ideal. Touring isn't about how fast you can go far, it's about how much fun you can have doing the distance.

As for concerns about brifters being the first point of impact for crashes, this seems like a pretty genuine concern. All invaluable forsights guys

The main concern by some cyclists are that the integrated shifters are more complicated (full of little gizmos) which can break. I don't worry about them... do you worry about your rapid fire shifters?

Brad

The main concern by some cyclists are that the integrated shifters are more complicated (full of little gizmos) which can break. I don't worry about them... do you worry about your rapid fire shifters?

Brad

In a word - yes! But not to quite the same extent.
Not quite the same thing as the RadidFire shifters that most people use aren't integrated units. Even the interlocking units don't use the brake lever for shifting and it's the brake lever that hits the ground first.
But let's look at something pretty similar. Shimano did make some completely integrated units that combined both brake lever and shifter assemblies in one unit. If I remember correctly XTR, XT, and Hone all had models like that a few years back and shifting was done by moving the brake lever up or down. I personally have those MTB style brifter levers on a XC bike. Once again the brake lever would be the first point of contact. And once again - good luck finding parts even before Shimano decided to stop making them. (I wonder why that was? Maybe because MTB riders crash more frequently than road riders?) So in my case I have Ergon GC3 barends installed as crash bars to protect them.

Remember though that bar end shifters are pretty vulnerable to a crash as well. I snapped one in half when I winged a tree. I was surprisingly fine, but the shifter was sheared right in half.

if you want durability, downtube shifters, although they would be awful on a mountain bike.

There's just something wonderful about cruising along on the hoods and shifting with a flick of the fingers to keep my perfect cadence whatever the slope. I'm for brifters all the way. Ultegra or 105. And on long tours I keep a downtube shifter in the tool pack. If I'm really in trouble I can always revert to the downtube lever on the cable stop post to keep me going with a few gears.