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I thought it was called "Advocacy and Safety." I didn't know people would use it exclusively to post tragic stories about hurt/dead cyclists and bash SUV drivers. Could someone please post something positive here? At least one happy thread for every thread about death would be nice :)
kthxbye
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good idea and then lets put the hurt dead cyclists stories and SUV bashing in the "Jokes & Humour forum"
then we could continue and take all those pesky boring posts about singlespeed bikes and put them in the Road bike forum
and then..blah blah
good idea and then lets put the hurt dead cyclists stories and SUV bashing in the "Jokes & Humour forum"
then we could continue and take all those pesky boring posts about singlespeed bikes and put them in the Road bike forum
and then..blah blah
Yes! That's exactly what I'm saying! Finally, someone who understands me! Thank you!
I thought it was called "Advocacy and Safety." I didn't know people would use it exclusively to post tragic stories about hurt/dead cyclists and bash SUV drivers. Could someone please post something positive here? At least one happy thread for every thread about death would be nice :)
kthxbye
Just for you :D
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?p=790622#post790622
I thought it was called "Advocacy and Safety." I didn't know people would use it exclusively to post tragic stories about hurt/dead cyclists and bash SUV drivers. Could someone please post something positive here? At least one happy thread for every thread about death would be nice :)
kthxbye
There is no other forum to place these sad events. There is this fascination about the macabre when it comes to cycling. I guess if this were a football forum, we would be talking about injuries and broken bones. Like it or not, we are in a sport/activity where life and death go hand in hand.
It's a reality of our sport. We're out there on the roads with automobiles and other people. It seems macabre and it's depressing to read all these stories about people getting hurt and even killed, but it promotes awareness of an unpleasant reality: people on bikes get hurt and we need to be careful to try and avoid that.
Report of accidents should only be posted if there is something that riders can learn from the event, apart from the fact that motor vehicles can be dangerous.
I think the accidents should be posted for:
a) We can discuss what went wrong.
b) And educate ourselves and others about them.
c) Remind us while bicycling is generally safe, there are risk involved.
Anyone who rides a bike knows that an accident is a real possibility over time. Maybe by learning a little bit from the discussions that occur when accidents are posted, perhaps lessons will be learned that will enable us to perhaps avoid one ourselves. For example, the one I posted about the I-10 accident. Gives people a chance to examine if riding on the Interstate is safe or not, especially since that accident happened at rush time and dusk.
Discussing such things reminds us of the dangers of unsafe riding. Perhaps even lurkers who are not bicyclist but drivers can learn lessons also from posting them.
Cheers,
BLake
I think the accidents should be posted for:
a) We can discuss what went wrong.
b) And educate ourselves and others about them.
c) Remind us while bicycling is generally safe, there are risk involved.
Maybe enrolling in an Effective Cycling bike course would be a better first step instead of analysing cyclist accidents on information which in most cases is scant, secondhand and most likely inaccurate, particularly as to cause.
Realistically, we can all get tied up in knots about the individual tragedies and who or what is to blame, but the big picture says the number of deaths and injuries is actually quite small. Maybe we should post over the next week all the motorist deaths that we come across, just as a comparison.
The only thing the continued and prominent promotion of and morbid interest in cycling deaths achieves is to reinforce the notion in the majority of the community's mind that cycling is inherently unsafe and therefore is neither a recreational nor transport option.
No one is forcing you to read them.
i do find it odd that there seems to be some kind of fascination on this forum with bike tragedies...it's almost some kind of "us vs. them" victim psychology, like cyclists are some down-trodden group being attacked by the rest of the world. i don't get it. it's a sport, an activity, and stuff happens. but here you get the impression like cyclists are some kind of unfortunate minority that is the recipient of all the world's horrors and we all need to band together to protect ourselves from the rest of the world.
stuff happens, man. cyclists get hit. people drown. rock climbers fall. houses burn down. life is risky...
i'm not complaining about it, mind you...it's just an impression i get...maybe it's just a personal focus on comments from a few and not indicative of this forum as a whole...i dunno...
(1) I don't think most people posting to the safety and advocacy section of these forums view cycling primarily as sport or recreation; rather, I think they view cycling primarily as a form of transportation. :)
(2) John Forester may have some good ideas, but he isn't god, nor is he the last word on all things having to do with cycling safety. :rolleyes:
Hey, in the last tragedy thread we found out the apparent weight of a deer, with and without the rubber strip.
You sound like a real self-serving jerk. What do you want to hear about? How old are you? Do you have kids of your own? I doubt it. SUV drivers can be real jerks on the roads, along with drivers of small cars, drunk drivers, old drivers, teenagers. They are all a danger to bicyclists and pedestrians, and when you grow up and have kids or your own one day, maybe you'll understand and be a little more compassionate. I bet if you got run over by an SUV you'd be complaining about it too. You'd probably be the biggest whiner out of them all. Shut up and show some compassion.
I love your last line "shut up and show some compassion". Isn't that rather oxymoronic? Anyways all he was asking is for a few positive stories to counter the negative. He didn't say don't post about SUV drivers and deaths, just try to post some positive stories once and awhile. We DO tend to focus on the negative.
Heres a quote the original poster would probably recognize and resonate with:
"one thing I got to say before sales dive
stay positive and love your life"
-311.transistor.jupiter
You sound like a real self-serving jerk. What do you want to hear about? How old are you? Do you have kids of your own? I doubt it. SUV drivers can be real jerks on the roads, along with drivers of small cars, drunk drivers, old drivers, teenagers. They are all a danger to bicyclists and pedestrians, and when you grow up and have kids or your own one day, maybe you'll understand and be a little more compassionate. I bet if you got run over by an SUV you'd be complaining about it too. You'd probably be the biggest whiner out of them all. Shut up and show some compassion.
well it's either tragedies or everyone starts bashing each other or both
and as for SUVs I guess you consiter a mini-van one, well I drive one
cause all the dang cars are too small for my family
you cant put 4 kids in a car these days
and like others said it aint just SUVs
it's the driver and it dont matter what they are driving
I am sorry to hear most of the stories that get posted expectly when it's a kid
but then the media isnt goin to give the cycilest a break anyway cause we are just
big kids on toys that havent grown up enough to buy a car
Dammit I was just about to start a new thread for posting pictures of road rash! I guess I'll start one for pictures of flowers alongside the road instead, cept it's December...what to do, what to do?
This forum is a real downer, oneupmanship runs rampant whether it's how bad a fall you had or how many axles the vehicle you went under had or how you dented the hood of a car with your ulock.
It'd be nicer with less of that sort of postings and more frequent postings from newcomers with q & a or people who do things in cycling advocacy to talk more about it and what can be done in a readers area from a not so activist perspective. Or any number of other things beyond accidents and the resulting carnage.
I agree with gpsblake that the discussion about what went wrong can help us aboid similar problems. As to John Forester, Randya is correct, he isn't god. But he's mostly right. Most of his critics focus on making cyclists feel safer. Forester focuses on making cyclists be safer. Generally speaking, effective cycling supporters love to debate bicycle safety. Generally speaking, critics of Effective Cycling refuse to debate (there are exceptions to that rule in this forum).
I love this Notice of Close-Mindedness on the Bicyclesafe website:
Note to "Effective Cycling" fans: If you're about to send me an email telling me how stupid the advice on this site is, please save yourself the trouble. Trust me, I've heard all the arguments before (ad nauseum) and I simply disagree. I never write to EC websites to complain that I don't like THEIR advice, so I really wish you rabid EC's would stop sending insulting mail to ME.
You been there, too, eh?
You know, the sad part about all this is that there are elements on both sides that I can see and understand. There are occasions when one works and the other doesn't. And vice-versa. I delivered tonight the third session of a course I run , and I referred to Forester *and* Franklin *and* Allen. All express the same sorts of principles. Am I a disciple of one or the other or all? No, I am a disciple of my own experience which ironically, reflects pretty much what these three men put forward.
I thought it was called "Advocacy and Safety." I didn't know people would use it exclusively to post tragic stories about hurt/dead cyclists and bash SUV drivers. Could someone please post something positive here? At least one happy thread for every thread about death would be nice :)
kthxbye
If you don't like the show, change the channel. Try Jokes and Humor.
Life sucks and then ya die.
All cheered up yet?
HTH
I feel the same way about this forum, lot's of whining, too negative. I do check in from time to time as there are some constructive posts.
Could someone please post something positive here? At least one happy thread for every thread about death would be nice :)
Nobody is stopping you from starting positive threads (although I don't think this one qualifies.) Lead by example.
Life sucks and then ya die
But was the death cycling related?
I agree with gpsblake that the discussion about what went wrong can help us aboid similar problems. As to John Forester, Randya is correct, he isn't god. But he's mostly right. Most of his critics focus on making cyclists feel safer.
Yeah, I've noticed that too. Of course, it should probably also be noted that many of his critics seem to lack experience of actually dealing with day to day conditions of cycling on errands that actually have deadlines, or to destinations that are even moderately popular (and accordingly trafficked). I guess the whole problem is that those who lack experience don't realise that things that "feel" safe at any given moment don't necessarily correlate to any real reduction of risk. I've also noticed that cycling in traffic seems to be one of the very few disciplines in life where, according to people's perceptions, experience doesn't seem to equate to knowledge. This is one of the reasons I rarely visit this forum anymore. Seems that anytime someone discusses the use of vehicular cycling, the stock standard responses seem to be "you're trying to push some extreme leftist political agenda" or "you're an ******* trying to upset motorists", or "you've got a death wish". All of which come from people with no experience in vehicular cycling because they imagine it might be "dangerous".
To be honest, I'm also beginning to feel this way about cycling advocacy in general. It was only Thursday night at a dinner with other supposed "cyclists" that I heard people whining no end about the dangers of the bikepaths they ride on, but no vows not to use it in future. In fairness, I didn't bother to make that suggestion -- past experience tells me it would have been a futile pursuit. These days I just concentrate on my own riding, and utilising my experience for my own benefit. If anyone is interested in what I have to offer, I'm quite happy to impart some of that experience, but I don't think I'm going to bother in a public forum such as this again. I'm becoming increasingly convinced that few people are at all interested.
You sound like a real self-serving jerk. What do you want to hear about? How old are you? Do you have kids of your own? I doubt it. SUV drivers can be real jerks on the roads, along with drivers of small cars, drunk drivers, old drivers, teenagers. They are all a danger to bicyclists and pedestrians, and when you grow up and have kids or your own one day, maybe you'll understand and be a little more compassionate. I bet if you got run over by an SUV you'd be complaining about it too. You'd probably be the biggest whiner out of them all. Shut up and show some compassion.
What the f*ck does compassion have to do with it? And what the f*ck does having or not having children have to do with it? Granted, it's worth posting if there's something that can be learned from it, but 90% of the time it's just a four-line newspaper article that tells us nothing about how the incident occurred, apart from whether or not the cyclist was wearing a helmet. Perhaps if you started posting something constructive, you mightn't need to wade through so may "incompassionate" threads.
well it's either tragedies or everyone starts bashing each other or both
Yup.
What the f*ck does compassion have to do with it? And what the f*ck does having or not having children have to do with it? Granted, it's worth posting if there's something that can be learned from it, but 90% of the time it's just a four-line newspaper article that tells us nothing about how the incident occurred, apart from whether or not the cyclist was wearing a helmet. Perhaps if you started posting something constructive, you mightn't need to wade through so may "incompassionate" threads.
Yup.
Chris L, I think Stacey11 is trying to say that if one cyclist dies somewhere we should give are condolences. The compassion of the cyclist to another cyclist should be kept close to the heart. Simple things as helping one another. With a flat, broken chain and in times of need.
We are a very small group world wide and we all should stick together.
You and "Live311" sound like you would make great friends. Love your language too, how classy. A person that has kids does not have the immature mentality of "life sucks and then you die" - or "oh well, things happen". The article I was responding to was in regards to a 7 yr old boy that had been run over by a drunk driver in my town - that's why "having a kid or not having a kid" matters when it comes to the subject I was responding to. So, obviously you are not married and do not have kids, because life is all about YOU and YOU having fun, isn't it? You're probably one of those bad SUV drivers too.
Yeah, I've noticed that too. Of course, it should probably also be noted that many of his critics seem to lack experience of actually dealing with day to day conditions of cycling on errands that actually have deadlines, or to destinations that are even moderately popular (and accordingly trafficked). I guess the whole problem is that those who lack experience don't realise that things that "feel" safe at any given moment don't necessarily correlate to any real reduction of risk. I've also noticed that cycling in traffic seems to be one of the very few disciplines in life where, according to people's perceptions, experience doesn't seem to equate to knowledge. This is one of the reasons I rarely visit this forum anymore. Seems that anytime someone discusses the use of vehicular cycling, the stock standard responses seem to be "you're trying to push some extreme leftist political agenda" or "you're an ******* trying to upset motorists", or "you've got a death wish". All of which come from people with no experience in vehicular cycling because they imagine it might be "dangerous".
To be honest, I'm also beginning to feel this way about cycling advocacy in general. It was only Thursday night at a dinner with other supposed "cyclists" that I heard people whining no end about the dangers of the bikepaths they ride on, but no vows not to use it in future. In fairness, I didn't bother to make that suggestion -- past experience tells me it would have been a futile pursuit. These days I just concentrate on my own riding, and utilising my experience for my own benefit. If anyone is interested in what I have to offer, I'm quite happy to impart some of that experience, but I don't think I'm going to bother in a public forum such as this again. I'm becoming increasingly convinced that few people are at all interested.
Sums it all up exactly.
Cycling advocacy usually (90%) is just whingeing and whining from people who simply can't be bothered or see no reason to go get some training, or at least read appropriate texts. Then they want special facilities or the dumbing down of existing facilities to compensate for their ignoranc and incompetence. It's another reason why CM, in my estimation, is almost irrelevant as a cycling advocacy strategy.
There are some cycling advocates for whom I have great respect. They usually say, somewhere, sometime: "I am a member of the local council/county bike committee, and we work together with traffic engineers to find solutions". Oddly, they are the ones who have understood and adopted the principles of vehicular cycling.
A person that has kids does not have the immature mentality of "life sucks and then you die" - or "oh well, things happen".
Actually, I've met plenty who do. More importantly, at no point did I give any indication of having this mentality. I merely mentioned that whining about it here is not going to change the world. As I said before, if there is something we can learn from it, then by all means post it. If there is some realistic way that we can make a difference, or perhaps a means of contacting those suffering to send our condolences, let us know. However, simply whining about it here isn't going to change the world.
The article I was responding to was in regards to a 7 yr old boy that had been run over by a drunk driver in my town
Then how about posting it in that thread?
- that's why "having a kid or not having a kid" matters when it comes to the subject I was responding to.
So having a kid is a pre-requisite for having compassion is it? I've got news for you -- we've all lost relatives or friends at times when we shouldn't have. Whether they are adults or children has no bearing on whether we are able (or allowed) to feel compassion.
So, obviously you are not married and do not have kids, because life is all about YOU and YOU having fun, isn't it? You're probably one of those bad SUV drivers too.
Well, three conclusions jumped to in one sentence on the basis of no reasearch. Even in the Advocacy and Whining forum, that must nearly be a record. Well, you got the first point right. The second one, well, there are plenty of people and quite a few charities who probably wouldn't suggest that I'm totally self-centred. Of course, the difference is that I'm able to assist people in the real world without bragging about "feeling compassion" or whining about it on a forum, so they probably don't count, do they? The third conclusion couldn't be further from the truth, but hey, don't worry, that's never stopped you before, has it?
You and "Live311" sound like you would make great friends. Love your language too, how classy. A person that has kids does not have the immature mentality of "life sucks and then you die" - or "oh well, things happen". The article I was responding to was in regards to a 7 yr old boy that had been run over by a drunk driver in my town - that's why "having a kid or not having a kid" matters when it comes to the subject I was responding to. So, obviously you are not married and do not have kids, because life is all about YOU and YOU having fun, isn't it? You're probably one of those bad SUV drivers too.
Ah, I see we're humor-challenged. Well, I don't have (two-legged) kids, I'm not married, and I'm quite happy with that, but apparently you've got a problem with it. Very enlightened of you. So go ahead, look down on me and think whatever you want in your abundant ignorance - it doesn't mean a thing, but I'm sure it makes you feel warm, fuzzy and wonderfully superior all the same. You Da Man. I quiver in your moral shadow. Yuuup.
Chris L .... Stacey11 is recently registered and I think feeling a little empowered. Grain of salt.
Back on topic: despite all the bickering throughout these threads, and despite all the bragging, boasting, disagreements, condescension, diatribes, oblique references, trolling and insults, aren't we all part of one big-ass fraternity? I kind of think so. That's why I say hello to other cyclists (even though they don't always say hello back ... go L.A.!), that's why I check out their bikes and gear, that's why I'm green with envy and super-careful-courteous when I see them while I'm driving, and that's why I like to know when another cyclist has been downed. It's not morbid fascination. I certainly don't glom for gruesome details. But it's out of respect, sympathy and, most important, empathy. Sure, it's a little depressing at times. But considering the rest of the world doesn't give a sh*t ... shouldn't we?
That being said, it would also be nice to see more positive stories from time to time.
Chris L .... Stacey11 is recently registered and I think feeling a little empowered. Grain of salt.
Back on topic: despite all the bickering throughout these threads, and despite all the bragging, boasting, disagreements, condescension, diatribes, oblique references, trolling and insults, aren't we all part of one big-ass fraternity? I kind of think so. That's why I say hello to other cyclists (even though they don't always say hello back ... go L.A.!), that's why I check out their bikes and gear, that's why I'm green with envy and super-careful-courteous when I see them while I'm driving, and that's why I like to know when another cyclist has been downed. It's not morbid fascination. I certainly don't glom for gruesome details. But it's out of respect, sympathy and, most important, empathy. Sure, it's a little depressing at times. But considering the rest of the world doesn't give a sh*t ... shouldn't we?
That being said, it would also be nice to see more positive stories from time to time.
Yeah... I like most of this, too because of the compassion without the hysteria.
Like... there are no absolutes... going too far in one direction is as bad as going in the other.
Back on topic: despite all the bickering throughout these threads, and despite all the bragging, boasting, disagreements, condescension, diatribes, oblique references, trolling and insults, aren't we all part of one big-ass fraternity? I kind of think so.
You know, there was once a time when I felt that way, too. However, many of the experiences I've had in the last 12 months in particular would disprove that theory. It's not only all of the things you've said above, it's been the behaviour of many cyclists I've seen on the road, their attitudes, the total and complete lack of empathy or (dare I say it) compassion on the two occasions I've been physically assaulted when cycling in the last 12 months (and that's only counting the ones who actually threw punches, there were plenty who aimed their cars... oh forget it!). Ironically, about the only ones who cared were on this forum. I hardly ever get cyclists waving to me or saying "hello" -- unless they're people I already know.
I now believe that cyclists are basically the same as everyone else, and generally expect the same type of behaviour from them as from everyone else. Sure, not everyone out there on a bike is a moron, but neither is everyone in a car either. However, the percentage of people in both categories who would fit that description generally inspires a little cynicism when evaluating behavioural expectations.
that's why I like to know when another cyclist has been downed. It's not morbid fascination. I certainly don't glom for gruesome details. But it's out of respect, sympathy and, most important, empathy. Sure, it's a little depressing at times. But considering the rest of the world doesn't give a sh*t ... shouldn't we?
Call me cynical (better yet, call me "pragmatic"), but I suggest most deaths these days experience the "rest of the world doesn't give a sh*t". It's not just something that applies to cyclists. Again, if there's something positive any of us can do to assist those suffering, or if there's something we can learn from what happened, then post it. However, a four-line newspaper article that tells us nothing apart from whether or not the cyclist was wearing a helmet at the time (like that's going to ease the suffering) is pretty worthless in my view.
. . . that's why "having a kid or not having a kid" matters when it comes to the subject I was responding to. . . .
So having a kid is a pre-requisite for having compassion is it? I've got news for you -- we've all lost relatives or friends at times when we shouldn't have. Whether they are adults or children has no bearing on whether we are able (or allowed) to feel compassion.
Having a kid is not a prerequisite to compassion, but Stacey11 proves that it can make you obnoxiously arrogant.
I now believe that cyclists are basically the same as everyone else, and generally expect the same type of behaviour from them as from everyone else.
No offense but I'm really surprised that it took you this long to realise this. A person does not magically become some sort of saint when they go to straddle a bicycle saddle. We are afterall human beings first and cyclists second.
No offense but I'm really surprised that it took you this long to realise this. A person does not magically become some sort of saint when they go to straddle a bicycle saddle. We are afterall human beings first and cyclists second.
You don't become a saint by riding a bicycle, but, according to Stacey11, you can come close by having a one-night-stand and carrying the resulting fetus to term.
Edit: This rhetoric was over the top. Sorry.
Gee whiz stacy, you may want to lighten up a bit especialy since your motivations are no more or less important than anyone else on the forum. It's not the fault of anyone here that you have kids of your own, I'd feel rotten too! After all a truly compassionate person would've realized that there are a surplus of kids on the market waiting for loving parents before selfishly concieving their own. Now that there isn't anything to be done for it (unless you can afford another mouth?) you may as well use the forum to learn about safety and advocacy rather than ripping ineffectively into strangers. At least then you can help make the world a safer place for the 2-3 kids that it centers around.
You don't become a saint by riding a bicycle, but, according to Stacey11, you can come close by having a one-night-stand and carrying the resulting fetus to term.
Alright, now it's going a little too far, time to don the mod's cap.
Guys, the point has been made, perhaps it's time to lay off Stacey11 for a while and get back to discussing the issue at hand.
No offense but I'm really surprised that it took you this long to realise this. A person does not magically become some sort of saint when they go to straddle a bicycle saddle. We are afterall human beings first and cyclists second.
Perhaps you misunderstood the sentence, or perhaps I just worded it poorly. What I was referring to was this idea that there is some sort of "brotherhood of cycling" out there. Again, I once believed that one to be true, but less so these days.
Don't worry, I was well aware that there are plenty of morons out there on bikes all along.
Hey Chris, I'm still laughing about the "You're probably one of those bad SUV drivers too." That's bloody funny.
SERENITY NOW! SERENITY NOW!
CHEERS.
Mark
Perhaps you misunderstood the sentence, or perhaps I just worded it poorly. What I was referring to was this idea that there is some sort of "brotherhood of cycling" out there. Again, I once believed that one to be true, but less so these days.
Don't worry, I was well aware that there are plenty of morons out there on bikes all along.
Don't get me wrong .... I'm not saying that the other cyclists I see have a sense of brotherhood. But I myself feel a sense of brotherhood toward other cyclists.
And yeah, especially here in L.A., there are plenty of moronic *****es.
You don't become a saint by riding a bicycle, but, according to Stacey11, you can come close by having a one-night-stand and carrying the resulting fetus to term.
Edit: This rhetoric was over the top. Sorry.
Daily Commute - You are a total IDIOT - don't ever have kids.
Daily Commute - You are a total IDIOT - don't ever have kids.
I don't think you've impressed anyone with your charm or wisdom either.
Wow, this thread really took a dump.
Stacey11, I wish you the best of luck in your internet crusade against people who disagree with you. Everybody has a purpose in life, and I admire that you've decided to pursue yours with so much passion.
I started this thread in an attempt to lighten things up a little. I don't take message boards too seriously (thus my avatar), but I try to stick to a certain etiquette by not hijacking the serious threads. This forum was getting a little too serious and obsessed with death and murderous SUV drivers, so I simply made a request for someone to post something positive. I couldn't do so myself because I haven't been on my bike in almost 2 months (weather and short days).
Chris L, please don't lock this thread or ban Stacey. This is starting to get good :D
Thank you for your time and consideration.
Love,
live311 :love:
Chris L, please don't lock this thread or ban Stacey. This is starting to get good :D
Thank you for your time and consideration.
I think I'll take the former option. Actually I was thinking about it yesterday, too.
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