Classic & Vintage - Aaaaaargh!!

I took the Masi out for a brief test spin around the neighborhood this afternoon. What a sweet-riding machine! Similar to the Bianchi, but seemingly more sprightly. It's a good fit for me too, which was the whole point.

Unfortunately I got only 2 blocks from the house and heard the chain acting up. It's flopping around loosey-goosey. So I limped home. The RD was working when I rode with it on the Bianchi over to Harris Cyclery two weeks ago, and when I moved it over to the Masi last week.

On further review, which is to say on dis-assembly of the RD, the ruling on the field stands. There is no irrefutable evidence to overturn the ruling that the Cyclone's pulley cage spring has broken. :cry:

So here's the question. This is a Mk 1 Cyclone. Would a spring from another Suntour RD such as a V-series work? (I'd hate to ruin a good V-series derailleur though.) I know the Mk2 Cyclone used a unique spring. But it's been a long time since I took apart a V of any sort and all mine are currently in use.

Would any of you have a spare spring? Or know of a good source for one?

Ouch, Sorry Jim!
Can't help with advice, but I do remember someone posted here who had their Cyclone GT cage twisted by their chain. Maybe he'll sell you the carcass.

The Gods are punishing you for putting a Japanese RD on a Masi. Say a dozen "Hail Tullios," do a couple "Stations of the Torch," and prey to St. Faliero for forgiveness. A donation to the Bikingshearer Retirement Fund would not be looked upon unfavorably, either.:thumb:

The Gods are punishing you for putting a Japanese RD on a Masi. Say a dozen "Hail Tullios," do a couple "Stations of the Torch," and prey to St. Faliero for forgiveness. A donation to the Bikingshearer Retriement Fund would not be looked upon unfavorably, either.:thumb:

+1.

I will gladly demonstrate sufficient contrition if someone could supply me with a good Campy GT-capable, which is to say 32T, derailleur, preferably one that is period-appropriate for mid-70's. For stylistic consistency I will need a FD too and clamp-on DT levers.

Phew! I was worried there for a moment the freewheel I sent you failed! It is mounted to this bike? Correct?

Phew! I was worried there for a moment the freewheel I sent you failed! It is mounted to this bike? Correct?
No and yes and yes. No the freewheel didn't fail, yes it is on this bike, and yes you are correct.

(I'm glad the RD chose now to break instead of when I was out on the road 25 miles from home. I rode maybe 15-20 miles with it on the Bianchi, and it could have stranded then.)

I will gladly demonstrate sufficient contrition if someone could supply me with a good Campy GT-capable, which is to say 32T, derailleur, preferably one that is period-appropriate for mid-70's. For stylistic consistency I will need a FD too and clamp-on DT levers.

What youse need there, pal, is one-a them double-pivot Ralleys! (spoken as Archie Bunker...).

It's hard to say whats period-correct, Jim, because you and I might be the only people who've tried to put sport-tour gearing on a Masi! Personally I'd point you toward a Nuovo Record front mech with a Campy Rally or Huret Duopar in the rear. Both are very durable. The Rally doesn't shift as well as the Duo by a large margin. Or if you want to stay Euro and go more modern, the Campy Racing T is wide range, slant parallelogram, not too dear, 8-speed vintage, and shifts in the same class as a slant para modern rear mechs.

Other odd vintage options: dual pivot Simplex, long-cage Huret Allvit, long cage Huret Jubilee, Campy Gran Turismo, and remember the Rally had three versions. If you look these all up, few shift as well as modern. The Duo and the old SunTours are standouts.

If you could live with a 26 in the rear and a 10 or 12 tooth spread in front, I'd say put a Campy Nuovo Record on front and rear.

Ditto on everything Road Fan has said.

Jim had me build the freewheel with as low a gear as I could find for him (he originally was hoping I had a 34 tooth cog).

Many of us suffer from this same plight: We want to ride a spirited vintage race bike, but the challenge of the hills, our age, careers which don't demand much physically, etc., makes it impossible to keep the race bike equipped with a 52-42 double and a 14-21 freewheel. The truth is hard to bear. I know I can't. Just look at how I've geared my Paramounts.

At least we are still riding, and riding vintage bikes which have not been hacked, drewed, and fixified!

Sancto Tulio et Sancto Faliero, mea maxima cupla. Forgive me for I have sinned, but I am a mere mortal and not worthy, which is to say I am incapable, of riding many of our hills with just a 52T/49T paired to a 14-26. I confess your wonderful Nuovo Record derailleur requires a strength of spirit to which I aspire but cannot reach.


Many of us suffer from this same plight: We want to ride a spirited vintage race bike, but the challenge of the hills, our age, careers which don't demand much physically, etc., makes it impossible to keep the race bike equipped with a 52-42 double and a 14-21 freewheel. The truth is hard to bear. I know I can't. Just look at how I've geared my Paramounts.

Heh! You're the guy who passed me going down the Chicken-Farmer hill, apparently having pedalled for part of it while drafting me. Nevertheless, I respond "Amen."

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Campagnolo-Rally-Vintage-Derailleur-/150745240315?pt=Cycling_Parts_Accessories&hash=item23191dd2fb

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Campagnolo-Rally-Vintage-Derailleur-/150745240315?pt=Cycling_Parts_Accessories&hash=item23191dd2fb

Who wants to bet me that this Rally ends up over $100? Even though the rear cage is installed wrong!

It's hard to say whats period-correct, Jim, because you and I might be the only people who've tried to put sport-tour gearing on a Masi! Personally I'd point you toward a Nuovo Record front mech with a Campy Rally or Huret Duopar in the rear. Both are very durable. The Rally doesn't shift as well as the Duo by a large margin.

Here is my '74 Masi with a 1st gen Rally. Campy triple conversion in the front, with a NR front der. Shifts very well with Simplex retrofriction shifters.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x320/metin_uz/ajan12/P1040265.jpg

If you are patient, you can still find gen 1 Cyclone at a reasonable price on ebay. Like everything on ebay, there is tremendous variance in sales price. I picked up a set of derailleurs, and shift levers, in excellent condition on ebay a couple of months ago for $30.

Bummer about the bad luck spell Jim :(

Who wants to bet me that this Rally ends up over $100? Even though the rear cage is installed wrong!

I'll take that bet. ;)

Well, I'm not much help here seeing how I've got mostly IGH bikes, but I do have this if it's any help. It was pulled off a Raleigh Sprite that's being converted to a SA AW. It looks pretty low end to me. What that said, I know little about derailleurs and what I do know, I'm desperately trying to forget! ;) I believe it will clean up pretty nicely. If you want it, it's yours for the asking.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7142/6812739683_edb39707fa_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/threefamilyalbum/6812739683/)
Suntour - 1 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/threefamilyalbum/6812739683/) by Sallad Rialb (http://www.flickr.com/people/threefamilyalbum/), on Flickr

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7173/6812745179_7852922737_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/threefamilyalbum/6812745179/)
Suntour - 2 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/threefamilyalbum/6812745179/) by Sallad Rialb (http://www.flickr.com/people/threefamilyalbum/), on Flickr

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7144/6812747447_56387cca3d_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/threefamilyalbum/6812747447/)
Suntour - 3 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/threefamilyalbum/6812747447/) by Sallad Rialb (http://www.flickr.com/people/threefamilyalbum/), on Flickr

I'll rummage in the boneyard at work today for any first-gen Suntour that might have a spring. Details in a few hours.

Photogravity, I'll buy that RD for $10 just so it doesn't end up on a Masi. I don't have the reverence for Italians like the zealots here, but that ain't right, man.

Wasn't Henry III making long cages for NR rd's so they could be used for a wider range of gearing?

Photogravity, I'll buy that RD for $10 just so it doesn't end up on a Masi. I don't have the reverence for Italians like the zealots here, but that ain't right, man.

It must be worth quite a bit if you're offering $10 for it. ;) Actually, I'm up in Jim's neck of the woods to retrieve that tandem so I figure I could hand it off then. Still.... $10? Hmmm. It's tempting! :p

Jim, if you can take the flack from the zealots here, I have large box full of first generation cyclone rear der.

You never know how these things come into being, but here is a (albeit brief) description of a Masi with a mix of Campy and Suntour Cyclone.

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/retro-classic/good-deal-masi-161235.html

Wow, such an outpouring of responses. Thank you all. I have my eye on a Mk1 Cyclone GT right now. I have other options too for temporary solutions. I can't say I want to spend big bucks on a Campy uless it is really special.

Bikemore, I may just drop you a phone call or email shortly.

In the ideal world an inexpensive Suntour will have the same return spring which I can cannibalize to fix mine without ruining another good one. That GT looks like a possible candidate!

Jim, I believe a first generation Cyclone return spring requires a replacement from a first generation Cyclone only. They're a bear to replace.

Wow, such an outpouring of responses. Thank you all. I have my eye on a Mk1 Cyclone GT right now. I have other options too for temporary solutions. I can't say I want to spend big bucks on a Campy uless it is really special.

Bikemore, I may just drop you a phone call or email shortly.

In the ideal world an inexpensive Suntour will have the same return spring which I can cannibalize to fix mine without ruining another good one. That GT looks like a possible candidate!

I'll bring it with me so that if we cross paths (it seems likely), I can pass it on to you.

Sancto Tulio et Sancto Faliero, mea maxima cupla. Forgive me for I have sinned, but I am a mere mortal and not worthy, which is to say I am incapable, of riding many of our hills with just a 52T/49T paired to a 14-26. I confess your wonderful Nuovo Record derailleur requires a strength of spirit to which I aspire but cannot reach.

You are absolved of your sins, my son. No go forth and sin no more.

:D

Wasn't Henry III making long cages for NR rd's so they could be used for a wider range of gearing?

Yes. Henry has my 2nd Gen Rally as his model for the cage. I also sent him a Nuovo Gran Sport to see if the long cage will fit on it.

:roflmao:


It must be worth quite a bit if you're offering $10 for it.

Jim, I believe a first generation Cyclone return spring requires a replacement from a first generation Cyclone only. They're a bear to replace.
Interesting, as far as I can tell the later Cyclones shared the same flat-wound spring (like a clock spring) as about 2/3 the Suntour line used.

Interesting, as far as I can tell the later Cyclones shared the same flat-wound spring (like a clock spring) as about 2/3 the Suntour line used.

I believe they're different enough not to be compatible. Orientation of the "key" end of the spring and maybe overall length as well were different. I think Khatful knows for sure. I had one fail on me and Keith helped me get it back on the road.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Campagnolo-Rally-Vintage-Derailleur-/150745240315?pt=Cycling_Parts_Accessories&hash=item23191dd2fb

The backwards cage plate is funny, but note that that is the best version of the best version of the Rally.

It has the larger reinforcing rib (in the upper casting) just below the pivot boss. The earliest ones had no reinforcement, and rarely (but sometimes) snapped in two at that (narrowest cross-section) area. Then they added a reinforcement, then later they made it bigger. This is the 'third-generation' first-generation Rally....

And yes, I'd also bet that it will finish over $100. NOS ones are closer to $300 now.

I believe they're different enough not to be compatible. Orientation of the "key" end of the spring and maybe overall length as well were different. I think Khatful knows for sure. I had one fail on me and Keith helped me get it back on the road.

The first-gen Cyclone has the general style of cage spring seen in Shimano derailleurs, a spiral spring with tails sticking out both ends. The implementation's weird, though... the inboard tail is the one that gets anchored stationary to the front "knuckle" of the derailleur. The outboard tail plugs into the pivot bolt, which then threads into the pulley cage plate until it bottoms. So the spring turns the pivot, and the pivot turns the cage.

Among other things, it appears to me that if the pivot simply came "unlocked" from the pulley cage, it would mimic a broken spring, so jimmuller, you might start by just grabbing the pulley cage with one hand and checking whether the pivot bolt is no longer locked against it. If the pivot's not tight, try snugging it down (hold the pivot stationary so you don't tweak the spring, and rotate the cage to tighten it) and see if you now have spring action again. If that's what's going on, some strong threadlocker seems advisable.

Wasn't Henry III making long cages for NR rd's so they could be used for a wider range of gearing?


Yes. Henry has my 2nd Gen Rally as his model for the cage. I also sent him a Nuovo Gran Sport to see if the long cage will fit on it.

Henry PMed me last night and sent this picture of his progress on cutting faux Rally cages. Pretty sweet! He is about to send these prototypes to mkeller and cudak888 for testing. My cage pieces are in the upper right.

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m609/FoxValleyVintageVelo/DSCN2436.jpg

Here is my '74 Masi with a 1st gen Rally. Campy triple conversion in the front, with a NR front der. Shifts very well with Simplex retrofriction shifters.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x320/metin_uz/ajan12/P1040265.jpg

Ok, I think we need a "Gran Criterium Sport Tour Totally Tubular Club!" There's three, at least we can ballot without tie votes!

I just wish I had one that fit me. In Masi-talk, I'd need an M55 or M56. Mine is a M53.

Among other things, it appears to me that if the pivot simply came "unlocked" from the pulley cage, it would mimic a broken spring, so jimmuller, you might start by just grabbing the pulley cage with one hand and checking whether the pivot bolt is no longer locked against it.
Thanks for the input but it's definitely broken. I took off the outer cap to expose the innards and the spring fell out. I can see where the inboard tab is broken.

I'm wondering how one torques up the spring after putting in another one. Remove the stop screw in the outer cage plate and rotate the cage around? Or do the shaft have to be removed from the cage anyway? A year or so ago someone posted how he managed to rebuild a ??? derailleur, perhaps a Cyclone. I didn't pay attention at the time. One has to be clever, I guess.

That Campy Rally is looking better'n'better, as are Henry III's long cages.

But the Cyclone is also a pretty piece. Nevertheless, I've ridden for decades on Vx's and VGT-Luxe's, and never had a cage spring break.


Ok, I think we need a "Gran Criterium Sport Tour Totally Tubular Club!" There's three, at least we can ballot without tie votes!
Now that's a thought! I don't quite meet the entry requirements just yet though.

Jim,

If HenryIII's Rally Cage project works, and you have a Campy NR or Nuovo Gran Sport RD you are willing to convert, he has promised me two cages and I only need one. You are welcome to consider using the other. This will provide you with the Italian Bling everyone is encouraging you to hang on our Masi.

Ditto on everything Road Fan has said.

Jim had me build the freewheel with as low a gear as I could find for him (he originally was hoping I had a 34 tooth cog).

Many of us suffer from this same plight: We want to ride a spirited vintage race bike, but the challenge of the hills, our age, careers which don't demand much physically, etc., makes it impossible to keep the race bike equipped with a 52-42 double and a 14-21 freewheel. The truth is hard to bear. I know I can't. Just look at how I've geared my Paramounts.

At least we are still riding, and riding vintage bikes which have not been hacked, drewed, and fixified!

Yep, that's me! I have to modify them somewhat to ride them, but nothing that can't easily be changed back.

Who wants to bet me that this Rally ends up over $100? Even though the rear cage is installed wrong!


I'll take that bet. ;)

$147.50 + $7.50 shipping.

1st Gen Rally (3rd Ed.) with backwards Rear Cage! (http://www.ebay.com/itm/150745240315?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649)

Make's Henry's project look affordable!

Justin I'll collect the next time I'm in Louisville!

Hey it shifts smoother than Campy, can you blame him?;),,,,BD

Justin I'll collect the next time I'm in Louisville!

I'll pay up. I'll find a bike for you to ride too.

Thanks to a benefactor (who wishes to remain unnamed lest he be condemned for helping me perpetuate the profanity of Cyclone derailleurs on a Masi frame), I now have a functional Cyclone RD again. He sent me a pulley cage spring.

It turns out that installing it was quite simple. I had opened up the derailleur by removing the end cap from the pivot shaft but did not remove the shaft from the cage. The new spring slipped down over the end of the shaft. After a small amount of shuffling around, the inner tang dropped neatly into its hole at the bottom of the well. I removed the stop screw from the cage so I could twist it around beyond its normal stop point, then pushed it outwards into position until the outer tang of the spring fit into one of the slots in the end of the shaft. Once the end cap was popped into place it all stayed together nicely. Then I just torqued the cage back around and replaced the stop screw.

So the bike can be ridden again. Time for some serious test riding.

Then paint. That's a whole 'nother ball of a different color.