Tandem Cycling - There are some tricked out rides here...

I know there are some very sweet and special tandems posted in various places along this forum.

I'm just curious, and this is often difficult to see in the photos, but are these bikes also given a factory works bike treatment of titanium and aluminum fasteners? Or are most of you running the oem Shimano, SRAM, or Campy hardware.

What about the other chassis fasteners. Seat Clamps, Bottle Cage, saddle to seatpost, stem etc hardware.

Are the dollars flowing and Ti holding?

FWIW, not picking on anyone for this, more curious than anything else.

PK

Our Cannondale RT2 is essentially OEM, except for the Specialized seats and Continental GP4Seasons tires.

235957
We designed our full carbon Zona tandem and nitpicked everything including c/f lugs with retro window cutouts, round c/f handrests, c/f adjustable stoker stem with integral mount for her bottle cage and yes, even a c/f rear rack.
Ti tidbits like rear dropouts and even ti bottle cage bolts.
Get what you want and/or can afford and then ride the hell out of it!
Our Zona has over 33,000 miles on it and still worth every $ we spent!
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

235957
We designed our full carbon Zona tandem and nitpicked everything including c/f lugs with retro window cutouts, round c/f handrests, c/f adjustable stoker stem with integral mount for her bottle cage and yes, even a c/f rear rack.
Ti tidbits like rear dropouts and even ti bottle cage bolts.
Get what you want and/or can afford and then ride the hell out of it!
Our Zona has over 33,000 miles on it and still worth every $ we spent!
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

Just curious as to why you used an adjustable length stoker stem? I am sure Kay knows where she wants the handlebars by now.

Well, when I started with my tandem (http://www.flickr.com/photos/vonkaenel/sets/72157623047985092/) in 2009, I was given a spreadsheet by Calfee (https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYyVdGP2ZKEuZGZzOXBnejJfMTNkbXQya3RjOA) of every component they typically used.

My build (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AoyVdGP2ZKEudFVwN3pUX1NVNkhSRng1VjJ3ajVNRFE) used hardly a single component on that spreadsheet, nor many of their recommendations.

But now, when I see Calfee's new tandems (http://2012.handmadebicycleshow.com/2012-bikes/2011/06/07/dragonfly-tandem-complete-21-pounds/), my build is very similar.

So, our tandem started tricked out, but now it is just de rigueur.

Well, when I started with my tandem (http://www.flickr.com/photos/vonkaenel/sets/72157623047985092/) in 2009, I was given a spreadsheet by Calfee (https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYyVdGP2ZKEuZGZzOXBnejJfMTNkbXQya3RjOA) of every component they typically used.

My build (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AoyVdGP2ZKEudFVwN3pUX1NVNkhSRng1VjJ3ajVNRFE) used hardly a single component on that spreadsheet, nor many of their recommendations.

But now, when I see Calfee's new tandems (http://2012.handmadebicycleshow.com/2012-bikes/2011/06/07/dragonfly-tandem-complete-21-pounds/), my build is very similar.

So, our tandem started tricked out, but now it is just de rigueur.


Great excel file of your build. It would be interesting to compare it to my almost carbonless tandem build. If I can find the time I will do the comparison. A quick looks shows you have some parts much lighter and other maybe maybe slightly heavier.

What is the story behind the left shifter?

Well, when I started with my tandem (http://www.flickr.com/photos/vonkaenel/sets/72157623047985092/) in 2009, I was given a spreadsheet by Calfee (https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYyVdGP2ZKEuZGZzOXBnejJfMTNkbXQya3RjOA) of every component they typically used.

My build (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AoyVdGP2ZKEudFVwN3pUX1NVNkhSRng1VjJ3ajVNRFE) used hardly a single component on that spreadsheet, nor many of their recommendations.

But now, when I see Calfee's new tandems (http://2012.handmadebicycleshow.com/2012-bikes/2011/06/07/dragonfly-tandem-complete-21-pounds/), my build is very similar.

So, our tandem started tricked out, but now it is just de rigueur.


Ritterview, this photo from another topic, posted by you got me thinking about this topic.


http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6028/5895912619_847bd04cd1_z.jpg

The two things I noticed and wondered about were why is the QR skewer left with excess length and from the photo it appeared the cable clamp bolt on the avid BB7r was plain steel. This just sort of surprised me considering the details many of these bikes see. Great bike and build, just curious why folks sometimes don't spend the few extra dollars to go way over the top with small details.

Please don't shred me for asking. It just seems that cool little trinkets like chainring bolts, cable stuff, perches for levers and other tid bits would give that small unnoticed feature to build a true works bike.

Again cool bike.

PK

The two things I noticed and wondered about were why is the QR skewer left with excess length and from the photo it appeared the cable clamp bolt on the avid BB7r was plain steel. This just sort of surprised me considering the details many of these bikes see. Great bike and build, just curious why folks sometimes don't spend the few extra dollars to go way over the top with small details.

You're right-- I am going to have to step up the game!

(I am just grateful that you spared me the mortification I'd have if you'd pointed out the glaring [literally] error of having silver granny chainring bolts poking through in a black spider!).

Dean V:
Kay prefers an adjustable stoker stem because through her 37 years as a stoker her body has changed/aged a bit.
She was 5' 1/2" tall when we started back in 1975; she is now 4' 10 3/4" in height.
She has added on a few years from age 40 to being 77 years old this year.
We do keep our tandems for a long time . . . 50,000+ miles.

Age/time has a habit of changing a few things; bit less flexibility, cancer, effects of meds, even a few aches and pains, etc.
Only once since 2003 when we got the Zona tandem did she ask for me to adjust reach to her bars; she's aslo changed saddles, some after thousands of miles, others after only a month or so of riding.
Our body tells us when something's not quite as we'd like, so the adjustability gives us a chance to compensate.
The bike's still great. The bodies . . . well, give yourself another 20 years of riding!
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

You're right-- I am going to have to step up the game!

(I am just grateful that you spared me the mortification I'd have if you'd pointed out the glaring [literally] error of having silver granny chainring bolts poking through in a black spider!).

...And I thought those bolts WERE ti.
Seriously, the bike is killer, no doubt even better in person.

PK

I guess "tricked out" is a relative term...we sold our 20+ year old Burley a couple of years ago and found a '93 Santana Visa. I built a new set of Dyad/9 speed wheels, XTE v-brakes, cold-set rear dropout spacing (145) for 9 speed (w/ titanium 12-34 cassette). We're having fun with it.

I guess "tricked out" is a relative term...we sold our 20+ year old Burley a couple of years ago and found a '93 Santana Visa. I built a new set of Dyad/9 speed wheels, XTE v-brakes, cold-set rear dropout spacing (145) for 9 speed (w/ titanium 12-34 cassette). We're having fun with it.


Thats cool! I will probably take the same path with our T-200. Question: Did the 9 speed cassette not work in the 140mm spacing? It seems that if I want custom wheels I'll have to cold set the rear end cuz 140mm hubs are so hard (or expensive) to come by.

Our 2011 Calfee utilizes stock off the shelf components and weighs 27.4 pounds with 4 bottle cages and pedals.

We have a small/small Calfee Tetra frame (carbon fiber)
Carbon fiber Enve fork
Carbon Fiber Arundel bottle cages
Topolino Tandem wheels with Carbon fiber spokes and titanium Q/R
Zipp carbon fiber captain handlebars
Profile carbon fiber stoker bars
Thomson seat posts
Thomson front stem
Ritchey rear stem
Dura ace front and rear derailleurs
Dura ace front and rear caliper brakes
Ultegra 6703 brifters
New 2012 Ultegra Tandem cranks
Ultegra 11-28 cassette
Wipperman chains
Schwalbe ZX 25mm tires
Latex tubes
John Cobb captain saddle
Bontrager WSD RL ladies saddle for the stoker
Shimano SPD pedals for the stoker
Samson pedals for the captain, original design with titanium spindles

That pretty well covers it. The only addition I plan is to replace the timing chain with the new Gates CDX belt when it is available. The last I heard is that it will not be available until sometime near years end.

Wayne

When I ordered our Co-Mo Speedster at the end of 2004 - I worked with my local shop to get all the parts I wanted that weren't available from Co-Mo and got credit for parts that were shipped with the bike in exchange. We ordered almost everyone of their optional Wound Pp CF pieces and the Rolf wheels. I've made a few changes over time in terms of drivetrain - the biggest was going to a full Campy 10 instead of running my Ergo levers with a DaVinci modified Sram X-9 and adding the WoundUp CF disc fork and disc brake.

I suspect that many tandem teams feel that the issue is the experience and not the bike. Additionally a failed component is a bigger loss during a tandem ride. Those and the fact that weight is less an issue on a tandem then on a single make the weight wiennie/bling **** thing less of a tandem thing. The coolest teams I've seen show their stuff with their legs and smiles... Andy. (Who knows that this post will get nothing).

Our 2011 Calfee utilizes stock off the shelf components and weighs 27.4 pounds with 4 bottle cages and pedals.

We have a small/small Calfee Tetra frame (carbon fiber)
Carbon fiber Enve fork
Carbon Fiber Arundel bottle cages
Topolino Tandem wheels with Carbon fiber spokes and titanium Q/R
Zipp carbon fiber captain handlebars
Profile carbon fiber stoker bars
Thomson seat posts
Thomson front stem
Ritchey rear stem
Dura ace front and rear derailleurs
Dura ace front and rear caliper brakes
Ultegra 6703 brifters
New 2012 Ultegra Tandem cranks
Ultegra 11-28 cassette
Wipperman chains
Schwalbe ZX 25mm tires
Latex tubes
John Cobb captain saddle
Bontrager WSD RL ladies saddle for the stoker
Shimano SPD pedals for the stoker
Samson pedals for the captain, original design with titanium spindles

That pretty well covers it. The only addition I plan is to replace the timing chain with the new Gates CDX belt when it is available. The last I heard is that it will not be available until sometime near years end.

Wayne

Yes a trick ride...but did you take it to the limit and go with exotic fasteners? That was my main focus of starting this topic. I doubt the cost of the fasteners is a hold back in the case of this bike. The reduction of weight is small, but the ability to "finish" the bike has potential.

PK

When I ordered our Co-Mo Speedster at the end of 2004 - I worked with my local shop to get all the parts I wanted that weren't available from Co-Mo and got credit for parts that were shipped with the bike in exchange. We ordered almost everyone of their optional Wound Pp CF pieces and the Rolf wheels. I've made a few changes over time in terms of drivetrain - the biggest was going to a full Campy 10 instead of running my Ergo levers with a DaVinci modified Sram X-9 and adding the WoundUp CF disc fork and disc brake.

Same here...

Yes a trick ride...but did you take it to the limit and go with exotic fasteners? That was my main focus of starting this topic. I doubt the cost of the fasteners is a hold back in the case of this bike. The reduction of weight is small, but the ability to "finish" the bike has potential.

PK

I suspect that many tandem teams feel that the issue is the experience and not the bike. Additionally a failed component is a bigger loss during a tandem ride. Those and the fact that weight is less an issue on a tandem then on a single make the weight wiennie/bling **** thing less of a tandem thing. The coolest teams I've seen show their stuff with their legs and smiles... Andy. (Who knows that this post will get nothing).

I don't disagree with this. Typically though quality titanium fasteners are not a common failure. Rest assured we smile and pedal, most times enjoying every pedal stroke. For us, titanium fasteners are used so they don't corrode and look like a Huffy.

Some of the bikes discussed here are about as close to factory "works" bikes as a tandem will be. Those from the moto side know when they see a factory bike, much of it is handmade, they also don't assemble it with steel fasteners.

Just because the bike is light, doesn't mean it will fail or can't be ridden hard. Because the bike is pretty doesn't mean it's a quality build. The ones here I mention are pretty and quality, just how deep does that definition of trick run...

Yes I am taunting these teams a bit, not being mean or condemning them. These are very nice EXPENSIVE and nice bikes.

Maybe the owners will spend their tax returns on titanium fasteners...

PK

We have a few Ti fasteners on our 35+ lb bike but I have also found that Stainless steel does not corrode. It is at least as shinny as Ti as well (if that is bling). A big problem is that some "quality" stem manufacturers insist on using non stainless steel fasteners on stems which are directly in the line of falling salty sweat. Seems strange to pay top dollar for a stem or FD and have it attached with a corroded fastener.

In fairness I have found that stainless steel is not rated as strong as regular steel and that may be part of the reason for its use. Stainless is still stronger than Ti in the same configuration.

What is a complete Ti kit on a tandem going to save in weight?

Wayne

Yes a trick ride...but did you take it to the limit and go with exotic fasteners? That was my main focus of starting this topic. I doubt the cost of the fasteners is a hold back in the case of this bike. The reduction of weight is small, but the ability to "finish" the bike has potential.

PK

So what fasteners would you change and what would be the weight savings?

I suspect that many tandem teams feel that the issue is the experience and not the bike. Additionally a failed component is a bigger loss during a tandem ride. Those and the fact that weight is less an issue on a tandem then on a single make the weight wiennie/bling **** thing less of a tandem thing. The coolest teams I've seen show their stuff with their legs and smiles... Andy. (Who knows that this post will get nothing).

Andrew, have you ever ridden a 27 pound Tandem? We went from an older steel Santana Visa to our new Calfee Tetra and the ride, acceleration and ability to get it up hills is DRAMATICALLY improved.

Try one and you will see what I mean.

Wayne

Same here...

Yes a trick ride...but did you take it to the limit and go with exotic fasteners? That was my main focus of starting this topic. I doubt the cost of the fasteners is a hold back in the case of this bike. The reduction of weight is small, but the ability to "finish" the bike has potential.

PK

Nope - not worth the time or effort to source and install for me. Although I remember a time when we started drilling holes in everything to lighten the parts back some 35+ years ago :)

While I don't try to build the lightest bike, I have sometimes find my time spent designing the bike and selecting components has become a hobby in its own right. This seems prevalent among those trying to shave every last gram from their bike. Not a bad hobby but really different than riding.

Wayne

MYMOJO....i sent you a private reply. check your notifications

I suspect that many tandem teams feel that the issue is the experience and not the bike.

The bike doesn't matter? I dunno, I have a 45 lb. 1991 Burley Rock 'N Roll as well as my tricked out 25 lb. Calfee, and our experience is notably different on the two bikes. If considering riding a hilly century, or a fast group ride with singles, I'd have apprehension doing so on the Burley, but eager anticipation with the Calfee.

The two bikes differ in each component, but for each it is argued that the component makes no difference. Steel frame versus carbon? "Steel is real." Aluminum bars vs. carbon "Can't feel the difference". Robust (heavy) 26" wheels with 1.25" road tires vs. 700 cm carbon rims with 25 mm GP2000's? "Go fast wheels are only for races." To the naysayers, no component matters, or the difference is trivial, but when put all together the difference is profound.



Additionally a failed component is a bigger loss during a tandem ride.

Verily, as calling your wife will do little good. If she is your stoker, she is the partner in your distress. If she is at home, she will ask just who is this new stoker :love: ?. Either way, you're still stuck.

But in saying this you do not prove that heavier components are more reliable. Neither do you assert this, but rather insinuate. If you think lightweight components are not reliable, then which ones? I have a spreadsheet attached to a post above, which component is fraught with peril?

Lighter components are also higher end, and often have use in bicycle racing. A failed component in a bike race is a great loss indeed, a dropped chain arguably cost Andy Schleck the Tour de France. The wattage and intensity of say, a bicycle sprint, is much greater than a recreational tandem ride. So, if I am looking for reliable components, I can argue that those proven in bicycle racing is a more valid criterion than that it is heavy.



Those and the fact that weight is less an issue on a tandem then on a single make the weight wiennie/bling **** thing less of a tandem thing.

Gravity is remorseless, and cares not whether mass is on a single or tandem. Why is weight less an issue on a tandem? In comparison to singles, tandems typically, with a female stoker already have additional mass with a lesser power/mass ratio than does a single male rider. Acceleration and climbing are therefore relative weaknesses. Reducing the mass of the tandem helps to overcome that weakness. One or two pounds aren't noticeable, correct, but with extra weight or miles it eventually is noticeable. If you are on a hilly century, you don't want to be dragging any more weight than necessary.

Another benefit of a light tandem is that it is easier to maneuver off the bike. Putting into/onto the car, or parking at a rest stop or at home, etc. is a breeze not a chore. The stoker can much better handle it. The lightweight Gates belt makes it cleaner, too. I look at my heavy and oily Burley much differently than my light and clean Calfee. The former is moored in the garage, the latter brought inside. This may seem trivial, but one's experience with a tandem is not exclusively riding.



The coolest teams I've seen show their stuff with their legs and smiles....

Okay. Yay, legs and smiles! Tandems generally elicit a positive response from those with which you interact while cycling. Other cyclists, non-cycling onlookers, etc. But, though our smiles and legs be the same, I find there is a difference with my Burley and my tricked out Calfee. A huge difference. We will get a smile or wave on our Burley, and an oh-look-a-tandem, sure enough. But with our charismatic Calfee it is a different thing altogether. I do not know if a tandem team of Bradd Pitt and Angelia Jolie would attract more attention. People are drawn to it, and behold it with a wild surmise. They hadn't imagined a tandem could be so...racy? They gush, and then pepper me with questions. I'll get "That is the nicest bike I've ever seen!" repeatedly. It really is something.

In regards to the ti fasteners being less strong, quality fasteners are typically as good and often better.

When you question the how much weight does it save and does it make a difference. I guess the point of why I started this topic is missed or avoided.

Ti and aluminum fasteners represent to me, the finishing touches on what are most often a very high end build.

Ritterview, when / if you ever go with ti fasteners, shoot a before and after photo of that rear brake and front brake.

Like when I raced model cars, the aluminum and ti went un-noticed, until a similar car was pitted next to me. Then people begin to see not just the big details, but the entire package...

Again, nice bikes. It is also true about going fast ti or no ti...it ain't the arrow it's the indian(s).

PK

We've gone the Ti-Al fastener route for our Calfee (custom Tetra, Ti S&S):

Ti ring (triple and Gates timing) bolts
Ti crank bolts
Ti kit for stoker Easton EC-90 seat post
Al headset cap and bolt

This stuff mostly from Toronto Cycles.

The more standard stuff, but also a little trick:

Negative-G Ti brakes
Calfee captain bar-stem (FSA carbon K-Wing)
Bob Davis carbon stoker stem
Bob Davis carbon stoker bars (chopped and inverted 46 cm Kestrel)
Parlee front derailleur clamp
K-Edge chain catcher with Ti kit
Chris King Ti headset
Speedplay Light Action Ti pedals for stoker (Zeros for captain)

Next major upgrade will be to ditch the old Santana carbon cranks for Lightning cranks.

Ritterview said:
" To the naysayers, no component matters, or the difference is trivial, but when put all together the difference is profound."

I am not sure who you include in the naysayer group but I believe very few would argue the "no component matters". I know I believe components matter a great deal and I don't ride an expensive high end bike.

I don't need to ride your Calfee tandem to believe it is head and shoulders above you old Burley in almost every department. I suppose if you were truly using that extreme example to show that there is some difference between an older budget tandem and a top of the line modern tandem, then I would have to agree. I don't think it says anymore about steel vs carbon than comparing a Schwinn Collegiate with a Trek Madone.

About durability, I think it is self evident that the an old Schwinn Collegiate will take a lot of abuse. That does not make it a bike I want to ride, but my point is that the durability of a bike is sometimes at odds with low mass and ride quality. When I choose a Thompson Masterpiece (154 g) seatpost I do so with the knowledge that it is not as durable as the Thompson Elite seatpost (201 g). There is no right or wrong here just physics.

The strength of steel vs Ti dictate that a pedal axle of the same diameter made from Ti is weaker than one of steel. It is up to you to decide if Ti is strong enough for your purpose. I make no judgement of your selection. I have friends that think we are crazy to ride our tandem on the road so who am I to judge?

We all choose what we want to ride based on the types of ride we do, our budget, and personal preferences.

I'll end by saying that I think you have a great cutting edge tandem.


Wayne

Wayne, is it possible you misread Ritterviews intention?

I read his reply and the others. To me the intention is based on a concept of heavy is not always stronger or better. He just backed up his choices a bit.

As for naysayers of the weight makes little difference, that horse is well beaten. Yes it is about having fun, and that can be on a heavy bike or light bike.

I guess in regards to the light fasteners...that's y fault for sort of calling some of these bikes out.

There are more...but sometimes racers don't tell

The Swamptandem...no doubt built with a lean towards light and fast...but did it get the full ti treatment.

Merlins bike is no slouch.

Tandemgeeks, again no slacker machine.

Does it matter if they did or did not ti it out, nope, more the curiosity of if they did or if they now will.

Our budget and dedication to the road tandem limits how much is spent on it. As time and extra $ allow, we'll see if I can "Ti" it together.

Later
PK

I try to go by the $1 per gram guideline.
If it costs more than that then I probably won't spend the money unless there are reasons besides weight savings involved (improved function, bling, etc).
Of course there are limits to weight savings, I could save 200g just by changing my rims for rims that cost the same but are lighter, but I don't think would last very long.
Changing a few bolts to Ti might be the equivalent of leaving few extra quarters at home.

Nah, I didn't add any of that to our's yet. I have red-anodized fasteners on my white/black with red trim mountain bike, and I decked out my wife's solo bike (which is red/black with white trim) with red-anodized fasteners within three weeks of getting it home. (Her bike is probably the only Trek 2.3 decked out with aluminum fasteners. There were definitely low-cost ways to drop more weight on that bike, but man those accent bolts make the paint scheme pop!)

But the tandem is a very dark blue, almost purplish blue. So I don't think anodized blue will look good, and it's just not very inspiring for me to change silver bolts with other silver bolts.

That said, it's an '04, so some bolts are beginning to rust. If I get around to changing those, then I'd replace with stainless, ti, or aluminum.

Wayne, is it possible you misread Ritterviews intention?

I read his reply and the others. To me the intention is based on a concept of heavy is not always stronger or better. He just backed up his choices a bit.

As for naysayers of the weight makes little difference, that horse is well beaten. Yes it is about having fun, and that can be on a heavy bike or light bike.

I guess in regards to the light fasteners...that's y fault for sort of calling some of these bikes out.

There are more...but sometimes racers don't tell

The Swamptandem...no doubt built with a lean towards light and fast...but did it get the full ti treatment.

Merlins bike is no slouch.

Tandemgeeks, again no slacker machine.

Does it matter if they did or did not ti it out, nope, more the curiosity of if they did or if they now will.

Our budget and dedication to the road tandem limits how much is spent on it. As time and extra $ allow, we'll see if I can "Ti" it together.

Later
PK

Maybe so on the intention thing, I don't know.

Hope everyone enjoys their bike as much as we enjoy ours. Its not like the other bikes you mentioned but I counted and it has four Ti bolts in the 260 gram 180mm stoker stem. They are gold for some reason.

Wayne

I have to agree with Ritterviews views. ;) I have a lot of similar (if not different brands like Edge vs Zipp wheels) components on my Calfee and I race ultra distance races on my tandem (two RAAMs and a number of 500mile races). It is fairly new, about the same age as Ritterviews with about 15k+ miles on it. Durability has not been an issue with any of the components. I'm a little out of the realm of your "average" tandem rider but I am very sensitive to ride quality. I have a very similar experience to Ritterview with a not so old Santana Sovereign. While it's a fine well made tandem (that I used to race) it's not anywhere near the same league as the Calfee and the extra weight makes a huge difference.
Can I go out and have a great time on the Santana? Absolutely but if I can have a great time on a bike that has a much better ride and requires less work to have the same amount of fun you know which one I'll be on. ;)

I believe very few would argue the "no component matters". I know I believe components matter a great deal

Ah yes, but there are posts like this, which chides for even considering the components.


I suspect that many tandem teams feel that the issue is the experience and not the bike. Additionally a failed component is a bigger loss during a tandem ride. Those and the fact that weight is less an issue on a tandem then on a single make the weight wiennie/bling **** thing less of a tandem thing. The coolest teams I've seen show their stuff with their legs and smiles...


Which is representative of the Its-the-Arrow-not-the-Indian view. Fine. Obviously the indians are more important than the arrow. But, holding indians constant, the arrow matters. And seeing as this is a tandem forum, discussion of the relative merits of tandems and their components would be a primary purpose of the forum. But, no sooner than does a discussion about tandem bikes or components get going, than a wise sage will gravely inform us what really matters is how good a rider you are, or if you want to save weight, you can lose a lot more off your body (and presumably the stoker's body too, but that never gets suggested for some reason).

So, I don't know, I just want to be able to discuss tandems and components without having to defend discussing tandems components.

Homeyba, another tricked out machine built for speed and a purpose including having fun...so did you ti and aluminum fastener the thing together when building the Calfee or do you have plans to?

Wayne, very cool you have those four ti fasteners. Obviously, like everyone that posts here, these fasteners won't make or break your fun.

Ritterview, yes I have read and seen the posts from the wise sages and so forth. This topic is not for them per say. Your bike caught my eye in the other topic. I started this to discuss what I consider some of the overlooked details about so many of these quality, to the point of sometimes cost is no real object, builds. If a ti fastener package is not your next uppgrade for the chassis, what is?

I'm pretty certain that most folks realize that fast riders are fast on most anything they ride. This is more about the bikes. Maybe a set of ti bolts is something the builder or shop never proposed. Possibly they came with a high end group as oem. I do know that the bolts that are supplied with Avid brakes are steel.

PK

I've done the red bolt thing on my tandem, but mainly to get rid of unnecessary steel bolts which would soon rust and because I like red. I've not measured the weight saving, but it probably cost less than $1/g. I've only changed bolts where a single failure would not cause a crash because I want to err on the side of caution with the tandem.

From memory the list includes:
Chainring bolts x15
Bottle cage bolts x10
Derailleur cables x2
FD clamp x1
Aheadset cap bolt x1

I didn't change the bolts on the seat posts, brake cables, seat clamps, stems or similar as I think this is a bad idea.

Regarding saving weight, I spend far too long on weight weenies, so you could say I'm keen on light stuff. But my experience is that it's enough to have one 'bleeding edge' bike where things like brakes take 4 hours to get the installation right. I started to get irritated by this, so for me it's better to choose parts carefully to have the sort of kit that is reasonably light, easy to set up and is robust. I'm willing to pay for that, but not go crazy as diminishing returns kick in at some point. Also the funny thing is that a light bike feels nice, but my 12lb Parlee is not really any faster than my 24lb Eddy Merckx when I ride in a group.

So my ideal tandem for UK use is probably a Calfee with Ultegra Di2, Shimano single side drive using Ultegra bits, Thomson / 3T carbon bits, comfy seats and probably a couple of different types of wheels. Maybe some Zipp 1080 clinchers for calm flat days and aluminium wheels for longer hills.

If I wanted to go properly crazy we could use a similar frame but festoon it with Enve 1.0 fork, Gravitas brakes, Jure Berk one-piece saddle/seatpost/stem/bars and stem/bars, tuned and shaved Sram Red shifting set, Hollowgram cranks with custom spiders, AX Lightness rims with Tune hubs, Omni racer cassette, mini i-links, Powercordz, nasty Tufo tubs, carbon FD clamp, carbon seatpost clamps, brifter clamps, homemade lever hoods, full ceramic everything, no paint.... I'm guessing 18lbs would be a good target, since Ritterview's Calfee with some of those bits but without the extreme saddle parts, extreme wheels and rideable cassette and tyres is at 21lbs. But it would probably cost $30k, go no material amount faster than my idea bike and worry me every time I exceeded 50mph.

We've gone the Ti-Al fastener route for our Calfee (custom Tetra, Ti S&S):
Chris King Ti headset


I'm jealous. I wanted one of those for our da Vinci, partly to say "this bike has everything" and partly to go with the sparkly silver accent stripes between the metallic blue paint and the "bare" carbon tubes. Unfortunately the bike is made for an integrated headset and the Ti one won't work. *sniff* Now I'm planning a set of custom wheels...at least it'll have Chris King hubs then.

Okay, back to the OP thread, which involves tricking out components, eg titanium fasteners.

One thing I haven't looked into is tuning the Avid BB7. All I've done so far is make my disc brake heavier, by replacing the Avid 203 mm rotor with a Formula 220 mm. I'd like to make up some of that ground.

The Avid BB7 obviously hasn't been discussed in the road section of Weight Weenies, but neither is it discussed much on the mountain side (http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&keywords=Avid++bb7&fid%5B%5D=1). This probably as hydraulics are much more popular; the BB7 got only one vote in this WW poll (http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=47842&hilit=Avid+bb7).

There is one guy who tuned his (http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=788630#p788630), at least.


If I tune my BB7 setup it will run:

---Tuned BB7 (w/o bolts & rotor) : 225g (est)
Extralite levers -$198 [not tandem applicable]
Alligator iLink cables - $45 [probably not applicable]
BB7 titanium bolt kit - $42 ($21/ea)
Rotor titanium bolt kit - $30 (frt & rear)
Ashima SS Rotor 160mm - $50 ($25/ea)[lighter weight rotor is applicable, but different issue]
---Total: $365

So, tuning the BB7 consists of titanium bolt kits for the BB7 and rotor.

Fairwheel sells titanium rotor bolt kits (http://fairwheelbikes.com/far-and-near-titanium-rotor-bolts-p-2729.html). But where to source a BB7 titanium bolt kit?

for the next trick out there..

http://www.bikerumor.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/2012-SRAM-Red-hydraulic-disc-brake.jpg

Ritterview this is where my Ti fasteners come from when I do splurge on them.

http://store.mettec.com/category/238

Sometimes the shop has them in their assortment, other times they need to be ordered.

They don't sell "kits" like SRP did years ago. You need to measure each bolt, select a head style and order them.

As for the Avid brakes, some off-road bikes do, some don't. Much of the hardware from Avid cable to hydraulic is the same.

Obviously, special fasteners they don't have.

As for the disc bolts, I have friends that run 3 ti and 3 aluminum on their off-road singles. That 220 rotor may like a steel / ti mix for safety. I do not know the shear strength of the ti fasteners from Mettec. This page shows details of how their bolts are 120ksi fasteners typically and how they compare to steel hardware.

http://store.mettec.com/tech

The above page is also a great read about dry vs wet torques, and also shows how inaccurate a torque wrench method may be.

PK

Toronto Cycles should have the bolts you need: http://www.torontocycles.com/.

They have a cool website. I didn't see a Avid BB7 kit, but you should easily be able to measure your bolts and then order singly. Then you just need the rotor bolts. Pretty neat that there are some color choices for Ti nowadays.

for the next trick out there..

http://www.bikerumor.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/2012-SRAM-Red-hydraulic-disc-brake.jpg

Pretty neat.

One thing about a cable brake or running an off-road based hydraulic brake on the tandem is the ability of the caliper and fluid to handle heat.

When motocross bikes went to smaller rear brake calipers and one piece rear master cylinders/rezzys. some riders had overheating problems. Many of these brakes made it onto the Hare Scramble models, and thus began an era of boiled brake fluid and faded brakes.

PK

for the next trick out there..

http://www.bikerumor.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/2012-SRAM-Red-hydraulic-disc-brake.jpg

Very interesting. But it looks like it would require SRAM. I imagine, though, adaptations for Shimano and Campy would not be far off.

Homeyba, another tricked out machine built for speed and a purpose including having fun...so did you ti and aluminum fastener the thing together when building the Calfee or do you have plans to?...

I have a mixture of TI and Al fasteners on my bike and only because that is what I had when I put the bike together. I'm not that much of a weight weenie that I count every gram but I'm not worried about a TI fastener braking either. I have to say that my bike weighs a little bit more than Ritterviews, mostly because my frame is a bit heavier and some of components are slightly heavier.

...When motocross bikes went to smaller rear brake calipers and one piece rear master cylinders/rezzys. some riders had overheating problems. Many of these brakes made it onto the Hare Scramble models, and thus began an era of boiled brake fluid and faded brakes...

My Husqvarna has had that problem on occasion... :(

Toronto Cycles should have the bolts you need: http://www.torontocycles.com/.

They have a cool website. I didn't see a Avid BB7 kit, but you should easily be able to measure your bolts and then order singly. Then you just need the rotor bolts. Pretty neat that there are some color choices for Ti nowadays.


Well...now I know where to buy crank bolts. Cool site, sure seems diverse and I wonder how much is made overseas. I'll likely stick to the American made fasteners when possible and use the Canadian site for the odd ball stuff if they have it.

Our machine is not even near the level of trick as many bikes here, the ti keeps it pretty and holds it together. Still, there is a lot of steel we drag along.

Hope this topic will let some teams take their bike to basically a "work" level. Hope it helped.

PK

My Husqvarna has had that problem on occasion... :(

Not fun...plus they get real squeaky many times once overheated. Replacing the fluid often helps. The Motul fluid is very good at minimizing this, but for mean kind of congealed and caused worse issues with no pedal. The entire system had to be torn apart, cleaned and flushed, then refilled.

PK

Speaking of tricked out rides, Cyfac's entry (http://www.facebook.com/cyfac) at NAHBS (http://2012.handmadebicycleshow.com/exhibitor/cyfac/).

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/409009_10150659683376823_68542836822_11136346_1087720164_n.jpg

Speaking of tricked out rides, Cyfac's entry (http://www.facebook.com/cyfac) at NAHBS (http://2012.handmadebicycleshow.com/exhibitor/cyfac/).

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/409009_10150659683376823_68542836822_11136346_1087720164_n.jpg

So if anyone has photos of the bike up close...did they use titanium bolts to secure the rear caliper adapter to the frame, and the caliper to the adapter?

PK

Definitely a very cool bike with or without ti fasteners but in my opinion a miss application of brakes. The use of an avid disc as a drag brake is inappropriate or any brand disc for that matter. They are not designed to desipate the heat fast enough. The avid will melt the adjuster nobs. At that point the ti bolts won't matter.