Classic & Vintage - English 3 speed shifter cable routing

I noticed on some English 3 speed bikes the shifter cable is routed a long the upper horizontal bar and over a pulley. Other models are routed along the down-tube. Both ending up at the Sturmey Archer hub.

Does anyone know if routing the shifter cable works better one way verses the other?

Yes, the top tube and pulley method is better, for two reasons.

First of all, there is less friction with less housing; so you get a cleaner shift.

Second, with the top tube routing the cable approaches the hub at approx a right angle to the dropout, which means moving the wheel in the dropout doesn't throw the hub adjustment off. If the cable approaches from the BB, even a tiny movement of the axle is enough to throw the hub out of adjustment.

The above is true of older hubs by Sturmey Archer, as well as Shimano, F&S, Bendix, &c. It does not apply to modern IGHs on which the fulcrum is attached to a plate attached to the axle.

I have had 3 speeds with both setups. The top tube pulley routing does work better it seems easier to get the cable adjustment right and tends to stay adjusted better and work smother in general.

I'll second what rhm stated. On my DL-1 and Sports (recently sold) the cable uses the pulley mechanism and works very nicely. On the R20 folder and Trent Sports, both use a fully enclosed cable system with a stop on the chainstay tube. Adjustment is fiddly when removing and replacing the rear wheel as in fixing a flat tire. Not a big deal after a while but in the beginning it's a pain. PG.

Prefer the upper routing. It was changed around 1980 on the diamond framed bike.

Aaron :)

I haven't had to readjust after removing the wheel because I can see exactly where the wheel was by the marks in the paint. It's a good thing because my S5/2 has two cables.

http://inlinethumb20.webshots.com/47059/2140088880068014369S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2140088880068014369mTwoGM)

The cable routing is non-traditional, but it works well. The housing is non-compressable and I think that helps. I treated it as just another index system because that's what it is.


http://inlinethumb51.webshots.com/10418/2408217520068014369S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2408217520068014369ipkIzQ)

This one is completely traditional. The pulley is an old steel one and the fulcrum clip is reliable stainless. It works great, but three speeds is just not enough. I may switch to a new 5 speed.

http://inlinethumb29.webshots.com/26140/2188523240068014369S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2188523240068014369deIMQv)

My bikes are conversions. I wish I would have found the real thing while they were still cheap.

Another issue with the BB routing is that the cable can easily be pinched by a thrown chain or forgetting to put the cable back on the hub after a wheel change/tire repair. The second thing is really easy to do when you are in a hurry and late and a bit flustered by having a flat.

A kinked cable will shift poorly with a greater chance of neutrals in 2nd gear as well as be much harder to get into that sweet spot as far as adjustment. That's because it will not be straight and will be springy at the kink and not want to slack into 3rd as easily so it has to be adjusted looser -creating potential problems with 2nd. Once a cable is kinked it is pretty much shot and can't be easily straightened.

I agree with most of these posts about the shifting, but I'd like to add that it can be annoying when loading the bike on a traditional car rack for transport. With my pulley setup, I have to remove the cable from the wheel every time I put the bike on the back of the car (which is relatively frequent since I bring the thing with me almost any time I have free time at a destination.)

Not a huge deal, but I am sure I will break the brittle plastic pulley wheel soon.

I agree with most of these posts about the shifting, but I'd like to add that it can be annoying when loading the bike on a traditional car rack for transport. With my pulley setup, I have to remove the cable from the wheel every time I put the bike on the back of the car (which is relatively frequent since I bring the thing with me almost any time I have free time at a destination.)

Not a huge deal, but I am sure I will break the brittle plastic pulley wheel soon.

Get a metal one. (http://www.home.earthlink.net/%7Esteinborn/gentlemancyclistmerchandise.htm) You will need to scroll about 2/3 down the page to see it.

Bookmarked!

Get a steel fulcrum sleeve while you are at it. I replace the plastic one on every bike I service -sometimes on my bikes that I restore to sell if it has a metal one I replace that with a plastic one too! Now that I know I can get metal ones I probably won't be doing that any more ;)

I agree with most of these posts about the shifting, but I'd like to add that it can be annoying when loading the bike on a traditional car rack for transport. With my pulley setup, I have to remove the cable from the wheel every time I put the bike on the back of the car (which is relatively frequent since I bring the thing with me almost any time I have free time at a destination.)

Not a huge deal, but I am sure I will break the brittle plastic pulley wheel soon.

When I transport mine on the car rack I put it in 3rd gear to slacken the cable before loading up. Haven't damaged anything yet. FWIW I use a Saris Bones.

+1 on the steel pulley and fulcrum. I replaced most of mine on my by bikes.

Aaron :)

When I converted an old Kabuki ten-speed to three-speed, I used the down tube routing because Kabuki already had a pully cable guide screwed into the side of the bottom bracket casting. It seemed a shame not to use it. I never gave a thought to changing the adjustment when you change a tire, I just thought that was part of riding a three-speed.

rhm, I never thought about that! I will remember that (which is better than bookmarking, if you can manage it).

When I was converting from a derailleur to an IGH, rhm and others explained, as witnessed above, the benifits of Toptube/Fulcrum and the pitfalls with going under the BB. Throwing caution to the wind, I followed the existing routing, downtube & under the BB, using the brazed on cable stops already on the frame. After 2 years of almost daily riding in all weather, a few flat tires.......It shifts as smooth as my bikes with toptube routing, I stand and pedal on hills and wheel shift/IGH adjustment has not been a problem. I suppose these could all be an issue, but it has not been the case in my experience. Also I noticed Pashley routed the cable under the BB on their new Clubman bikes.
237693
Comp GS with the Downtube cable run

Wow, you guys are brave! Well, I am sure glad no one got hurt by doing things the less-better way. Nonetheless, let us consider how we got here.

The question was: which is better? The answer is: the top tube is better.

The question was: which is better? The answer is: the top tube is better.

+1 Besides, it looks more classy atmo!

My issue with the lower mount is that the heel of my big foot sometimes hit the cable.

Well, I am sure glad no one got hurt by doing things the less-better way

Sometimes ya gotta just think outside the fulcrum.


My issue with the lower mount is that the heel of my big foot sometimes hit the cable.

With enough force and movement to shift the gears?

My issue with the lower mount is that the heel of my big foot sometimes hit the cable.

OK, yeti, maybe you just need to get a smaller foot! ;)

My issue with the lower mount is that the heel of my big foot sometimes hit the cable.

I solved this problem by routing the cable on the other side, past my smaller foot.

Edit: Darn you, PG! I never can seem to get to the low-hanging fruit fast enough.

i solved this problem by routing the cable on the other side, past my smaller foot.

Edit: Darn you, pg! I never can seem to get to the low-hanging fruit fast enough.

:p Though your post is just as, if not more so, witty atmo!

Wow, you guys are brave! Well, I am sure glad no one got hurt by doing things the less-better way. Nonetheless, let us consider how we got here.

The question was: which is better? The answer is: the top tube is better.

Top tube is better.
Top tube with braze-on pulley mount: BEST

I have only one bike with that setup at the moment, my 1951 Raleigh Lenton Tourist (http://www.flickr.com/photos/threefamilyalbum/sets/72157629194022503/). :)

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7022/6827310699_f5887335ff_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/threefamilyalbum/6827310699/)
Lenton Tourist - 25 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/threefamilyalbum/6827310699/) by Sallad Rialb (http://www.flickr.com/people/threefamilyalbum/), on Flickr

Thanks for the link with the steel pulley wheel! I do actually have maybe one or two amongst the pile of plastic pulley wheels i have hanging around, but I thought they were rare enough to not be wasted on a rider. Or at least my super rusty rider. ;) Now that I know there are others available, I wont worry too much about using them!

And yes, putting the gear in third does help with removal of the cable from the guide!

Is there anything particularly wrong with the plastic pulley wheel that warrants a steel replacement?

The steel one doesn't break -it happens. Usually it just fractures at the lip allowing the cable to slide off at an inopportune moment.

Really the plastic pulley wheel isn't as big a deal as the plastic fulcrum sleeve which has a bad reputation of giving out on older 3-speeds. They are really only good for 15-20 years of service life (whether the bike is ridden or not) and after that period tend to just degrade and allow the cable to slide through the cable-stop and create shifting problems. The steel fulcrum sleeves are quite sought-after because of this but really a new plastic sleeve will make a bike shift like new and be good for another 15-20 years.

I think that the hubbub around the plastic fulcrum sleeve has spilled over onto the related plastic pulley wheel as both used to be steel and both were replaced by plastic units in later bikes. The Pulley wheel in plastic is OK as long as it doesn't get bonked and breaks the lip off. I suppose as the plastic ages it gets more brittle too.

Is there anything particularly wrong with the plastic pulley wheel that warrants a steel replacement?


Not really but they do get brittle with age and may fracture without warning. I also like the look of the steel. IIRC my old Sports (1971) still has the original plastic one on it, but it really should have been replaced a long time ago, it is not really round any more...

Aaron :)

By having the gear cable routed on the downtube. Has anyone ever experienced the back of their heels clipping the cable? This happened to me a few times since I switched from routing on the top tube to down tube.

Is there a fix for this?

sorry to hijack the thread!

By having the gear cable routed on the downtube. Has anyone ever experienced the back of their heels clipping the cable? This happened to me a few times since I switched from routing on the top tube to down tube.

Is there a fix for this?

sorry to hijack the thread!

Never had that problem, re-route it along the top tube?

Aaron :)

By having the gear cable routed on the downtube. Has anyone ever experienced the back of their heels clipping the cable? This happened to me a few times since I switched from routing on the top tube to down tube.

yes, as was mentioned earlier in this thread:


My issue with the lower mount is that the heel of my big foot sometimes hit the cable.


Is there a fix for this?

Yes, switch the cable routing back to the top tube.

Thank you wahoonc and rhm

Anybody route the cable through the top tube...throught the stay? Then and only then I'd bow in all humility to those who run top tube and say nay to the down tube passage.

Not for nothin, I do understand the top tube run advantages, but......... I've been running a downtube cable for the last 3 years on my daily rider, repaired a few tubes roadside and have never had an issue with adjustment...even with my size 12's ticking the cable on occasion. I haven't experienced any of the "disavantages" named in the above posts and as an advantage, the down tube run under the BB doesn't require a pulley...as I see, it on less part to fail.....just my experience, in the spirit of fair and balanced reporting. Good Day :)

Yes, yes, we know, we know. It's all good. Top tube is just, well, better.

Put it like this: which do you prefer, good beer, or better beer? I like them both. But I prefer the better one.

Do girls have this option? If not, I call "Foul".
STS

Hmmmm.....


Put it like this: which do you prefer, good beer, or better beer? I like them both. But I prefer the better one.

I was thinking it was more like the difference between Belgian Tripel and a Lager....Both beer, both damn good, but different.

All of mine came from the factory routed along the top tube, so I left them that way. Also on more than one occasion when the shifter/hub was being cantankerous I could reach down and pull and release the cable to get it to shift into the gear I wanted.

Aaron :)

Also on more than one occasion when the shifter/hub was being cantankerous I could reach down and pull and release the cable to get it to shift into the gear I wanted.



And without spilling a "spot of tea" I'd assume....Good show old man, good show! I jest of course about the tea.


All of mine came from the factory routed along the top tube, so I left them that way.

Yes of course, unless you bought a Pashley Clubman, then the routing would be from the down tube (gasp!) Comes that way straight from the chaps bench! Then again, what do the English about building 3 speeds anyhow? :roflmao2:
http://brimages.bikeboardmedia.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/pashley-clubman-prototype-interbike09-07-600x450.jpg

Do girls have this option? If not, I call "Foul".
STS

Yes, girls have the option, but it isn't very elegant! :P

Don't think its 'posed to be elegant

And without spilling a "spot of tea" I'd assume....Good show old man, good show! I jest of course about the tea.



Yes of course, unless you bought a Pashley Clubman, then the routing would be from the down tube (gasp!) Comes that way straight from the chaps bench! Then again, what do the English about building 3 speeds anyhow? :roflmao2:


As long as it is "sweet tea" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweet_tea)...

Somewhere around 1979/80 Raleigh started routing them along the downtube. All of my bikes are older than that.

Aaron :)

The not-so-elegant option for girls is to put the fulcrum on the top tube, a pulley where the top tube meets the seat tube, and a second pulley where the seat stays meet the seat tube; so the cable is extra long and makes a prolonged N shape. This routing has the same advantages of the top tube routing on a man's frame. But as has been mentioned, these advantages are not really necessary; so I'm not sure whether this routing is really preferable to running a housed cable all the way to the chain stay.

http://www.bikeforums.net/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by slowtostart http://www.bikeforums.net/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?p=14669024#post14669024)
Do girls have this option? If not, I call "Foul".
STS


Originally Posted by Photogravity
Yes, girls have the option, but it isn't very elegant! :p

and the reply


Originally Posted by rhm
The not-so-elegant option for girls is to put the fulcrum on the top tube, a pulley where the top tube meets ..........

So, I'm thinking, we're not all on the same page are we? :rolleyes:

So, I'm thinking, we're not all on the same page are we? :rolleyes:

I don't speak for Photogravity. It sounds to me like we need to get together in one room with suitable refreshments and hammer out a platform that's agreeable to all members of the IGH party. I suggest we do this at my LI house this friday, then take our IGH's for a nice long ride on Saturday.

Sounders wonderful...I'll leave NJ last week to beat the Labor Day traffic on LI

Good to see you're being a "Sport" about it, other than timing...sounds like a "Superb" idea. I'll be "Lenton" you know when I can get away for a weekend! ;)

Good. That'll raleigh be a good way to raleigh our spirits.

That "saddles" it then!

I don't speak for Photogravity. It sounds to me like we need to get together in one room with suitable refreshments and hammer out a platform that's agreeable to all members of the IGH party. I suggest we do this at my LI house this friday, then take our IGH's for a nice long ride on Saturday.


Sounders wonderful...I'll leave NJ last week to beat the Labor Day traffic on LI

Good to see you're being a "Sport" about it, other than timing...sounds like a "Superb" idea. I'll be "Lenton" you know when I can get away for a weekend! ;)


Good. That'll raleigh be a good way to raleigh our spirits.


That "saddles" it then!

Dag guys, but unfortunately I'm unavailable this weekend. Even if I summoned the strength of Hercules, I simply can't make it. :(

BTW, those are *horrible* puns! :rolleyes:

My daily rider has it routed down the downtube and I have had a lot of issues keeping it in adjustment. I switched to indexed housing with less bends and it lessened the issue, but it is still there to some degree. I will probably be switching to a pulley on the top tube when I get the time to deal with it.

I can't see how a down-tube/under-the-BB routed Sturmey cable would be any more prone to indexing issues than one that was run over a pulley -regardless if the pulley was mounted at the top or the bottom of the seat tube. If you are having indexing issues then it is either 1 (or more) of these 4 things:

*Cable/housing is shot
*Bad//failing fulcrum sleeve/loose clip
*Trigger shifter is messed-up
*Hub needs rebuilding/gummed-up

The indexing of a tuned & clean S-A hub is nowhere near as tight or as important as it is on a modern indexed derailleur system and these do just fine with he under-BB routing system.

The real adavantage of the top-tube routing is getting the cable out of the way of the chainline. It's OK 99% of the time but when someone changes a tire or removes the rear wheel it is REALLY EASY to mess the cable up if it gets caught in the chain/chainwheel. Once kinked, the cable will have "spring" in that kink and will cause hard-to-diagnose indexing issues from then on. Running the cable overhead keeps it safely away from the chain. It can't be done on a step-through frame so that is why step-throughs have the lower pulley -it can't be helped. But running it overhead is better if there is a top-tube to run it along.

But the difference between a pulley or an under-bb slider? No difference -or none that would make any difference in an otherwise healthy bike & hub.

I can't see how a down-tube/under-the-BB routed Sturmey cable would be any more prone to indexing issues than one that was run over a pulley -regardless if the pulley was mounted at the top or the bottom of the seat tube. If you are having indexing issues then it is either 1 (or more) of these 4 things:

*Cable/housing is shot
*Bad//failing fulcrum sleeve/loose clip
*Trigger shifter is messed-up
*Hub needs rebuilding/gummed-up

The indexing of a tuned & clean S-A hub is nowhere near as tight or as important as it is on a modern indexed derailleur system and these do just fine with he under-BB routing system.

The real adavantage of the top-tube routing is getting the cable out of the way of the chainline. It's OK 99% of the time but when someone changes a tire or removes the rear wheel it is REALLY EASY to mess the cable up if it gets caught in the chain/chainwheel. Once kinked, the cable will have "spring" in that kink and will cause hard-to-diagnose indexing issues from then on. Running the cable overhead keeps it safely away from the chain. It can't be done on a step-through frame so that is why step-throughs have the lower pulley -it can't be helped. But running it overhead is better if there is a top-tube to run it along.

But the difference between a pulley or an under-bb slider? No difference -or none that would make any difference in an otherwise healthy bike & hub.

Apparently there were some issues somewhere on some bike where the bottom bracket flexing would cause the bike to shift into a gear and back out. On an AW going neutral at full steam can be painful.

Aaron :)