Why don't we have bike paths everywhere? [Archive]

MsMittens

12-19-04, 07:01 AM

Daily Commute

12-19-04, 07:30 AM

It's more the direction society takes. North America has a car driven society and thus builds roads and other infrastructure around the use of the car.

Holland has a society that embraces more than just the car and thus builds accordingly.

From what I've seen it's harder to put in a bike lane on an existing road in a NA city largely because of complaints by homeowners ("You're taking more away from my front yard!!"), complaints by pedestrians ("the sidewalk is too narrow!!") and motorists ("bikes are too slow!"). Tends to be an uphill battle in many cities with limited budgets. $$ goes to those that are most important in the eyes of the Councillors (ie., the motorist)
You forgot to mention that most bike lanes make cycling more dangerous for the cyclists. The benefits of bike lanes are mostly psychological--they help cyclists feel better about themselves. On a practical level, bike lanes take away the right of cyclists to use the road, confining us to a dirty, narrow, dangerous bike ghetto.

andygates

12-19-04, 02:57 PM

Even assuming bike lanes are a good thing, we just couldn't do it in the UK. There's no room. Most of our urban development is very, very old and most of it wasn't bombed flat in WW2 so we didn't get to rebuild it the way some Euro countries did.

Oh, and the money thing, natch ;)

larue

12-19-04, 02:57 PM

How can Holland do it then?
Holland spends it's money on roads, we spend it on our military.

Yes that is oversimplifying everything but eh.

WayneS460

12-19-04, 04:30 PM

My town has put considerable effort into creating bike paths near many major roads. They are good when I ride with my wife and for families with small children. When I'm trying to ride any distance, they have too many driveways crossing and are much too dangerous when crossing roads. In some respects, I wish the money spent on paths was spent on wider lanes on some of the roads.

Anthony King

12-19-04, 04:36 PM

Rowan

12-19-04, 05:05 PM

Have any of you making comment on Holland actually been to Holland and ridden there? I doubt it from the uninformed comments you make. It is NOT the cycling nirvana everyone makes it out to be.

Why more bike paths? There already exists a huge network of bike-accessible facilities everywhere in the world. They're called ROADS!

It's cheaper to educate bike riders to cycle efficiently and confidently than to build endless new facilities unless those facilities actually improve efficiency*. Driver education also helps.

* In most cases they don't because they have been built to recreational standards rather than transport standards.

trackhub

12-19-04, 05:53 PM

Properly engineered, bike lanes on roadways can be most excellent. Engineered badly, they can be be a complete waste, often going from nowhere, to nowhere else. At the very worst, they can be deadly, as the member above has posted.

Here in the Boston area, the bike lanes which have been installed on North beacon street, Huron ave. (from Fresh pond parkway, to concord ave) and Arsenal street are done properly. They are placed far enough away from the door zones, and are well-marked. You still must be careful when passing parked cars though. Being in the bike lane does not make you safe by default, and a lot of trucks double-park, often blocking up the bike lane.

But the city of cambridge(MA) has also pulled some first class screw ups. The bike lanes on Mass ave through the Central Square area, are a prime example. There was a fatality two summers ago, involving a female cyclist, a driver who opened his door without looking, and a bus. (Locals will probably remember this one.) The best screwups, are the bike lanes which make cyclists travel the wrong way on on way streets. Who thought that one up?

Another Boston area Gem: A small paved bike path in Lexington, which goes through some woods, runs alongside a small brook, and ends abrupty at a side street, near a grade school. This thing was built back in the 70's "bike boom", and was opened with a nice ribbon cutting ceremony. Total length, about a mile and a half. Today, it is overgrown, potholed, and has enormous tree root bumps. Who uses it? No one, except for teenagers looking for a place to drink beer.

I'd be interested in learning more about riding in Holland. I have heard good things, and bad things.

sbhikes

12-19-04, 06:00 PM

I like bike paths and don't think they are "ghettos". I especially like using the bike path down the main drag in town. I can go faster than all the cars and gleefully pass them all up.

Even nicer is when the bike path is completely separated from the street. Even a small distance separating the bike path reduces the noise considerably.

I'm lucky to live where there are lots of bike paths: a large network of separated trails, striped lanes, and posted routes. It really makes it much nicer to use a bike as regular transportation. Bike paths also accomodate those whose abilities are lesser due to age, illness or whatever. Not every cyclist is 20-30 something, male and at peak performance, and not every cyclist wants to battle it out in car traffic.

The way to get more bike paths is to have a strong bicycling advocacy presence, political support for alternative transportation, and a driving catalyst such as the horrendous traffic problems we have that cannot be solved by building new roads.

Rowan

12-19-04, 07:05 PM

It really makes it much nicer to use a bike as regular transportation. Bike paths also accomodate those whose abilities are lesser due to age, illness or whatever. Not every cyclist is 20-30 something, male and at peak performance, and not every cyclist wants to battle it out in car traffic.

That's a spurious argument using age and illness. I am not 20-30 something and my performance peaked a long time ago. And why use words like "battle it out in car traffic"? It is this sort of attitude that is presented to authorities which then act on them -- usually with dangerous results. Much better, in my view, to TRAIN cyclists to use the facilities that already exist for them and which likely go *everywhere* they want to go. But cyclists seem to have this attitude that they don't need to learn how to ride appropriately -- instead they want facilities to be dumbed down to accommodate their low level of competence.

Dahon.Steve

12-19-04, 08:14 PM

Like in Holland but instead one for people walking and people walking dogs as well as rollerblading or skateboarding, one for people going slow on their bike like a slow bike lane, and one for people on their bike goes really fast?

Why don't we have tunnels or small bridges on every intersection? That would help stopping a lot of accidents.

Why not move to Holland. Seriously.

I think living in Holland would be a blast instead of living in a cycle hostile subdivision. I would love to live in Holland and it's certainly an option in my books.

Dahon.Steve

12-19-04, 08:16 PM

money.

Agreed. It's amazing how much bike lanes cost to construct. My small town put up "Bike Lane" signs on the one avenue for two miles and it cost quarter of million dollars! They didn't even paint any lanes!

SteveE

12-19-04, 08:20 PM

I am more than happy to "Share The Road".

Dahon.Steve

12-19-04, 08:25 PM

You forgot to mention that most bike lanes make cycling more dangerous for the cyclists. The benefits of bike lanes are mostly psychological--they help cyclists feel better about themselves. On a practical level, bike lanes take away the right of cyclists to use the road, confining us to a dirty, narrow, dangerous bike ghetto.

I like bike lanes but recognize their problems.

1. Lanes are kept in terrible condition - Most bike lanes that share the road with autos are loaded with glass, small rocks and road debris.

2. Lanes are full of double parked cars - The lanes are often considered secondary parking spots for cars and taxies. As one poster said, the taxie thought the bike lane was for "the driver's margin of error"!

3. Lanes are considered extended sidewalks - You'll finds loads of peds standing in them waiting to cross the streets

4. Lanes are shared with other slow moving peds, walkers, dogs and skaters.

5. Lanes make the cars bullet past you - I find that cars will be more aggressive when passing you because they expect you to hold to the bike lane at all times.

Chris L

12-19-04, 08:42 PM

money.

There's more than enough of that. Trouble is, there just aren't enough votes at stake -- that's what happens with "government by opinion poll". Add that to the fact that, as Rowan so accurately pointed out, most competent cyclists have no need or desire to rely on paths, and indeed realise the dangers they pose. You end up with an absolutely minute percentage of the population actually wanting these things constructed, and that is never going to influence an election result sufficiently.

cyclezealot

12-19-04, 11:25 PM

Just do not know if I totally agree that bike lanes segregate us..Maybe technically..But, where there are no bike lanes, narrow , busy , congested lanes.Well, this is where I am NOT..... This situation is impossible..
Priorities...US just ignores its own needs..Example..Look at the tallest bridge France just built over the Tarn River..
San Francisco needs rebuild a lane over the Bay Bridge from Oakland..I have read..
The voters issued funding for a real bridge..SOmething to enhance the beauty of San Francisco.....The government will only fund an ugly, low lying causeway, to the detriment of water traffic..Can't afford it.....IF our priorites ruled this country 80 years ago, we would not have GOlden Gate bridge or a George Washington Bridge...In fact in places like Cleveland, Ohio the bridges are falling in the Cuyogha RIver. lucky to get any bridges at all.
We can only afford what we propriotize what we decide are our priorites...We want to ignore our own domestic needs; we get what we pay for...Or what we demand.
And wonder why bike lanes get low priority.

Dirtbike

12-19-04, 11:40 PM

move to california. there is a bike path on every single road.

Daily Commute

12-20-04, 01:43 AM

. . . There already exists a huge network of bike-accessible facilities everywhere in the world. They're called ROADS! . . .
Well said.

Juha

12-20-04, 04:44 AM

Not all roads are accessible for bikes, and I'd rather not ride on many of those that are. I would choose a proper bike path / lane over a crowded street / high-speed primary road any time.

Implementing proper bike paths / lanes requires more than just money. It takes good planning, some space and political will. All these are more likely to be available if the community is running some kind of recognised effort to boost bike usage.

If some of these are missing, the likely outcome is one more unusable bike path / lane. I think we have all seen our share of those. They are bad in so many ways: they don't serve the purpose they were built for, as such they are an utter waste of all efforts that went into building them, and they offer convenient ammo for anti-bike lobbyists ("look how much has been done already and yet nobody uses them"). I think money poured into such lanes would be better used in general road improving projects.

--J

Travelinguyrt

12-20-04, 06:15 AM

To Jeffrey

How much Tax do you want put on the bike riding you do to pay for the paths? I both drive a car and ride a bike, .43 cents per gallon of gas is taxed suppossedly for roads, thought i doubt it all goes to roads
You are the government whether you recognize the fact ot not, and you not someone else is going to have to start the movement for paths, and pay for them

To Dirtbike......"every road in cailfornia had bike paths", well maybe some, but on my recent ride from SF to Santa Barbara and Malibu except in a few cities, there were no bike lanes on HWY 1 along the ocean, and in spite of Gov Aaaaanolds rhetoric I rather doubt that bike paths are on a priority list, and if they were, where is the financing?
I stopped believing in fairy godmothers the same year I found that Santa Claus was my father and mother
The BEST idea I saw in Calif was the west side of the GG bridge wholly given over to bike riding, now that IS a GREAT idea. But from the Presidio to the bridge the lane was miniscule at best, and sum dude in a Bentley convertible nearly ran me off the road

2manybikes

12-20-04, 06:32 AM

I think bike lanes are a bad idea. Bike lanes reinforce the cager attitude that they shouldn't have to worry about/look for bikes while they are driving. I second Daily Commute's comments.

As far as the sentiment of your question, I feel 'ya, but I think you are looking at it wrong. Ms Mittens is on the right track. Jeffery is approaching the subject rationally, which isn't the way to understand this question (not most political questions). Policies towards traffic in the US and many other countries are made by legislators who are live in societies that are addicted, if you will, to automobile driving. You can tell a person addicted to any drug how it's ruining their lives, how it would be better if they changed this or that, but they can't imagine life without it and are unable to honestly evaluate the situation. They don't look at the problem rationally, but emotionally. The addict arranges his entire life around the drug, we have arranged our entire lives/cities/towns around cars. Only something very, very drastic will change that.

This is really the root of the problem. The paved roads were first created in the USA for bikes not cars. People were then sold cars and loved them. Everything was (literally) built around that.
It's happening now with cell phones. The cell phone was created so the manufacturer can make money. It is a marketing success. Now a whole generation does not know how to live without one. Now the pay phones are being taken out, and so are the highway call boxes. A lot of similarities.
A lot of it (not all of it) has to do with perceived benefits rather than real benefits. Bikes, Bike lanes, and bike paths, need to be marketed as well as cars and cell phones to be as popular.

The car still is seen as "needed" compared to a bike, by the largest segment of the population. So that's where the priority lies.

cyclezealot

12-20-04, 06:32 AM

[QUOTE=Travelinguyrt]To Jeffrey

How much Tax do you want put on the bike riding you do to pay for the paths? I both drive a car and ride a bike, .43 cents per gallon of gas is taxed suppossedly for roads, thought i doubt it all goes to roads
You are the government whether you recognize the fact ot not, and you not someone else is going to have to start the movement for paths, and pay for them

All I know in some parts of the world bike paths are plentyfull ....NOt here...Lots of money spent on alternative transportation..I know in nearby Oceanside, they built a path adjacent a highway overlooking a river...TO construct a 8 mile project city officials said it would take like 5 years at one million a year...20 year project that same bike path should extend another 10 miles to an adjacent city.Pretty slow project...Mostly done for tourist gratification, not serious cycling/transportation useage.
Seems I recall, California's budget hassles, the transportation funds are being robbed for general purposes...I call that lack of priorities..
That will change when in another 10 years, gasoline will then be far more expensive and in short supply..

Daily Commute

12-20-04, 06:33 AM

Just do not know if I totally agree that bike lanes segregate us..Maybe technically..But, where there are no bike lanes, narrow , busy , congested lanes.Well, this is where I am NOT..... This situation is impossible....
There are a few situations in which striped bike lanes can work--roads with speeds >35 mph with few intersections, bridges, tunnels, etc. But striped bike lanes are almost always a bad idea on regular downtown roads. Like cars, cyclists sometimes need to go straight, turn right, or turn left. No striped lane can accomodate that. Striped lanes also encourage the most dangerous kind of motorist behavior--the right hook.

cyclezealot

12-20-04, 06:37 AM

Daily Commute..Guess that is my routine...Most roads I ride on have speed limits approaching 50 mph..Sort of scary if the car is only 1 foot away...Often bike lanes in this semi rural setting are up to almost 4 feet wide...Cars should know to stay to the right of the white line..

webist

12-20-04, 10:33 AM

In our area they build "Multi-Use Paths." When described to walkers and joggers the path is called a trail. To cyclists, it's called a bike path. Neither are they off limits to equestrians, skate boards or scooters. i completely support the notion of multi-use paths. I do not care for them when on a bicycle however. My riding is intended for exercise. The frequent interuptions/disruptions and the unsafe or blind way these paths intersect roadways impede me. Thus, while I occasionally will use the path for short distances, I generally prefer and am entitled to use the roadways.

jazzy_cyclist

12-20-04, 11:55 AM

I think bike lanes are a bad idea. Bike lanes reinforce the cager attitude that they shouldn't have to worry about/look for bikes while they are driving. I second Daily Commute's comments.

I guess I'm unclear about the difference between "bike lanes" and a paved shoulder. I live in what used to be a rural area but has become more developed over the years. The riding is good most places, but there are lot of major roads that are only passable for a car/truck with either an unpaved shoulder, or (more likely) no shoulder at all. The traffic on these roads usually moves at 40MPH+ (I think the posted speed is actually 35MPH). Even cars that don't go over the speed limit are harassed pretty mercilessly. They were okay roads before they developed a few more thousand houses... now they are just plain overburdoned. If I had a solution to these roads, I'd be happy. Ones with less traffic, I don't mind taking the lane when needed, and if there's a decent paved shoulder, that's okay too (although I agree you'd better have tought tires).

We have a 20 mile "multiuse" bike bath that works well *if* you want to go that direction. Obviously cars aren't a problem on it, but the walkers/joggers/skaters are totally unpredictable. My wife's friend was walking her dog on it a couple of weeks ago, and although the oncoming cyclist followed protocol (said "on your left"), the dog wasn't cooperating and she ended up fracturing her foot in the ensuing collision.

Better to just deal with the inevitable.

2manybikes

12-20-04, 02:43 PM

In Rhode Island there is a rule requiring no longer than a 6 foot leash on a dog on the path. Don't know if that would have helped, it's not followed often.

In the state of R.I. we have some designated bike paths, the bikes actually have the right of way. No one knows this and as soon as you get to a neighboring state I believe thay change to multi use paths. It just confuses people.

randya

12-20-04, 02:57 PM

Agreed. It's amazing how much bike lanes cost to construct. My small town put up "Bike Lane" signs on the one avenue for two miles and it cost quarter of million dollars! They didn't even paint any lanes!
It sounds like most of the money on this project probably went to pay kickbacks to la Cosa Nostra, and not for 'construction'. :)

barenakedbiker

12-24-04, 11:10 AM

We do.

The Rob

12-24-04, 01:21 PM

Use bike lanes only when their placement in the roadway is optimum. Around traffic islands? No way, take the lane. When the lanes skirt parked automobiles on the curb? Forget about it; what padding can be found on the inside of a car door is meant for the comfort of the motorist, not you.

The fact is that, in the United States anyway, bike lanes are an afterthought, and if you use them indiscriminately you might be too.

trackhub

12-24-04, 01:36 PM

.... This is really the root of the problem. The paved roads were first created in the USA for bikes not cars. People were then sold cars and loved them. Everything was (literally) built around that.
It's happening now with cell phones. The cell phone was created so the manufacturer can make money. It is a marketing success. Now a whole generation does not know how to live without one. Now the pay phones are being taken out, and so are the highway call boxes. A lot of similarities.
A lot of it (not all of it) has to do with perceived benefits rather than real benefits. Bikes, Bike lanes, and bike paths, need to be marketed as well as cars and cell phones to be as popular.

The car still is seen as "needed" compared to a bike, by the largest segment of the population. So that's where the priority lies.

I think you are so right....

Given the sheer number of people who use the Minuteman bikeway, (including myself) I must believe that people want this type of facility. The minuteman works because:

-It is built on railroad right of way. It's wide, well-engineered, and well-maintained.
-It runs paralell to Mass ave for its entire length. Mass ave is a major commuting route.
thus, the minuteman serves a definite purpose.
-It allows cyclists to bypass a few areas where mass ave narrows, and urban traffic congestion makes cycling on the road close to impossible. (Near Arlington Heights. Locals will know where I mean)

So, after ten plus years of the minuteman, I'd say it works. However, on weekends, it does tend to become over crowded with suburbanites and their children, most of whom do not know how to ride properly. So, I ride on Mass ave during these times. I must point out that when riding on Mass ave, no one, not a police officer, motorist, or anyone else, has ever yelled at me to "get on the bike path where you belong". Of course, that is probably just simple luck.

2manybikes

12-24-04, 02:20 PM

I think you are so right....

Given the sheer number of people who use the Minuteman bikeway, (including myself) I must believe that people want this type of facility. The minuteman works because:

-It is built on railroad right of way. It's wide, well-engineered, and well-maintained.
-It runs paralell to Mass ave for its entire length. Mass ave is a major commuting route.
thus, the minuteman serves a definite purpose.
-It allows cyclists to bypass a few areas where mass ave narrows, and urban traffic congestion makes cycling on the road close to impossible. (Near Arlington Heights. Locals will know where I mean)

So, after ten plus years of the minuteman, I'd say it works. However, on weekends, it does tend to become over crowded with suburbanites and their children, most of whom do not know how to ride properly. So, I ride on Mass ave during these times. I must point out that when riding on Mass ave, no one, not a police officer, motorist, or anyone else, has ever yelled at me to "get on the bike path where you belong". Of course, that is probably just simple luck.

I hope this is not to far off subject.

Where would you park a car when brining you bike up from RI for a ride on the Minuteman? Is it easy to get to from The path around the Charles river ? I do go up there and park near one of the boathouses

Have you ridden the RI East Bay Bike path?

randya

12-24-04, 02:23 PM

Where would you park a car when brining you bike up from RI for a ride on the Minuteman? Is it easy to get to from The path around the Charles river ? I do go up there and park near one of the boathouses

Have you ridden the RI East Bay Bike path?
Yes, off-topic....this should be a new thread located somewhere else other than safety and advocacy... :)

bobbyg66

12-24-04, 03:06 PM

As a newbie my views are out of the mainstream and
perhaps in error in many ways. But they are strongly
felt and guide me in my actions and are of value for
that reason only. I don't say bike lanes will be shunned
for all time. I can forsee a time when my skills have
progressed to the point where using them in heavy
traffic may seem doable, but for now they strike me as
little different than playing Russian Roulette with
one's life. I ride only in places judged to be far safer.

Bike lanes are possibly the dumbest and deadliest
invention of my lifetime. By forcing cyclists and
motorists to ride together in close proximity with
the cyclists in constant peril of their lives, only safe
and watchful operation by all involved prevents
death becoming the rule and not the exception.

I care not a whit that bike lanes and riding with
traffic 'is the law'. Many more laws than the average
person is aware of are harmful to their well-being
than they will ever know. Notably most laws governing
food and health care. In almost every case, avoiding
the letter of these laws where possible is the wisest
course. Letting a car whiz past me going 50 miles
an hour inches from my person unseen in the same
direction I'm traveling is insanity by any definition.
Letting it happen continuously beggers belief.

The law is an ass! 2 unaware bikers have been
run over and killed here in Tucson in the last two
weeks. One was in a bike lane and hit by a drunk.
The other riding on the shoulder of an interstate
highway was killed by a hit-and-run driver. Still
unknown and unapprehended.

The only time I use bike lanes on busy streets is for
short distances 'against traffic' to pass slow-moving
walkers and get to a clear stretch of sidewalk. That
way, I get to observe all oncoming cars and jump back
to safety in time if their driving warrants it. This is done
rarely. Only when coming upon several people pushing
shopping carts that take up the whole sidewalk and
passing them can't be accomplished safely. Even then
I may stop and catch up later if going into the street is
unsafe. Such as during rush hours.

My entire point here is that biking is always dangerous.
And what the law says is of little to no importance to me.
Only what has been proven by past experience to be the
best and safest way of moving from here to there. In
practice, this means that each trip has a very detailed
route that has been determined by much trial and error.
And most of the busier roads are never used as unsafe.

In the 9 months since becoming reacquainted with what
was left of my muscles, I have had many troubles. Mainly
falls caused by exertion when exhausted. But never was
going back to driving considered. Quitting was never an
option in my family or for many in my generation as well.
And the joys of riding are many. I'm glad to have stuck it
out. I drove the streets of Tucson for a living for over ten
years and only learned the fastest routes. Now I'm starting
to learn the best ones. And any time discouragement sets
in, reading bikeforum posts from parts of the world with
real weather quickly sets me straight. How lucky I really am.

And the best of the holidays to all! Bob in Tucson, AZ USA

moxfyre

12-24-04, 03:22 PM

Agreed. It's amazing how much bike lanes cost to construct. My small town put up "Bike Lane" signs on the one avenue for two miles and it cost quarter of million dollars! They didn't even paint any lanes!

There was a recent discussion on the Bike Washington DC mailing list about this. People were incredulous that it would cost $100 million to build 20 or so miles of bike path. One guy was a road engineer and posted, and he explained that this was almost certainly over inflated by the state to kill the bike path plan BUT realistically, it might cost $1 million/mile to build a bike path in an area like DC, especially because land access, environmental mitigation, and earth moving is so expensive.

randya

12-24-04, 03:29 PM

There was a recent discussion on the Bike Washington DC mailing list about this. People were incredulous that it would cost $100 million to build 20 or so miles of bike path. One guy was a road engineer and posted, and he explained that this was almost certainly over inflated by the state to kill the bike path plan BUT realistically, it might cost $1 million/mile to build a bike path in an area like DC, especially because land access, environmental mitigation, and earth moving is so expensive.
$1M per mile is about right for a path. It's worth it but it needs political backing to happen. $5M per mile seems way excessive - who's getting kickbacks from that project???? Bike lanes are a completely different animal, and can be striped on existing roads for the cost of the paint and the labor - way, way less expensive than separated path construction.

cyclezealot

12-24-04, 05:12 PM

Bike lanes are very common in Europe...Don't think anti-bike attitudes would carry much weight in that land...
It maybe legal to ride on Wilshire Blvd. in LA, but with traffic wizzing by and no room for cyclists- such a ride, legal or not ,would be a near death wish...
Only in America would bike lanes intentional or not be thought to segregate cyclists.....we are so car crazy only such attitudes as the ocassional tolerance of cyclists on under funded, uncommonly found bike paths thought to limit cyclists..
In a normal society with a respect for cycling, bike paths would be cosidered a required patch of pavement built in tandem with all regular street construction...If not, roads would have low enough volume that the presence of cyclists would be natural.
Not only are cyclists discriminated against in the US,other forms of transportation such as railroads, street cars , are treated likewise.
I am convinced our car culture will bury us in traffic, pollution, and the debt of war all in the defense of the car culture.

'nother

12-24-04, 05:50 PM

Use bike lanes only when their placement in the roadway is optimum. Around traffic islands? No way, take the lane.
I have a funny, well, maybe not so funny story along those lines that just happened to me this morning. I was riding in an area that has fairly narrow lanes, and at one point goes up a moderate incline with a roundabout (on the incline - very strange). Anyway, on the inside of the roundabout is a small cobblestone skirt/curb. It's not a regular regulation curb, it's a little lower.

Anyway, I was going through there, took the full lane dead-center (maybe even a little left of center). So this idiot chick comes up beind me in her little souped-up fart-mobile, decides I'm going too slow, and passes me on the left by putting her left wheels up onto the curb and brushing a little too closely for comfort past me. Absolutely incredible. I'd have chased her down and *****ed at her, but I'm a wuss on the hills and couldn't quite keep up :-)

So, I guess no where is really "safe" as long as drivers are morons.

For those curious who know the area: Cristo Rey Rd. on the way out to Rancho San Antonio Park from Foothill Blvd.

Ganesha

12-24-04, 06:24 PM

Letting a car whiz past me going 50 miles
an hour inches from my person unseen in the same
direction I'm traveling is insanity by any definition.
Letting it happen continuously beggers belief.
...
The only time I use bike lanes on busy streets is for
short distances 'against traffic' to pass slow-moving
walkers and get to a clear stretch of sidewalk.

If you are uncomfortable with 50 mph traffic, don't ride on those roads. If you live south of River Rd., Tucson is a nice grid and you should divert to a lower traffic road. If you live north of River where the speed on the roads are higher, pick a road with one of those 9-12 foot bike lanes and cower near the gutter. (Not that you should do that, riding nearer to traffic lets drivers see you better)

Examples: If you are going (east-west) you should choose the mutiluse path long the Rillito, Glenn, or 3rd Street. Rather then using the main east-west roads in the area (River, Prince, Grant, Speedway).

Finally, riding against traffic is moronic. Please don't do that, you are tranishing the image of other cyclists when you do that.

cyclezealot

12-25-04, 09:26 AM

In busy urban America,often there are no alternatives to busy boulevards, that will get you anywhere...Particularily where the streets were designed at the turn of 20th Century.

Travelinguyrt

12-25-04, 10:54 AM

Reading the above greivances is much like listening to kids who ate all the candy and want more, or the others who are griping to a parent who won't let them have the car because"you didn't take out the trash this week, so no car tonite"
Nothing is going to happen bike path or lane wise until and unless we all get off our collective butts and get it done
Politcians listen to the loudest voices and the BIGGEST wallets and bags of cash
I recently wrote on here about how a small group of VERY rich property owners in Del Ray Beach, Fl, chartered a private jet, went to Tallahassee the state capital and lobbied highway dept dudes to NOT widen A1A, a horribly narrow stretch of road in front of their 10Million$ homes(each) to accomdate cyclists.
Guess what? No widening will be done
But that is the story from the time of the Spanish, developers have owned this state ever since; BUT recently in FT Lauderdale a guy was appointed to develop bike lanes in the area and make the place safer for pedestrians AND riders, now, one takes one's life into one's hands trying to cross a street here EVEN with the lites flashing its safe to cross
Enuf of the rant

I was up at dawn this AM and rode north to DelRay and beyond and back, tomorrow to Palm Beach and return. This AM was picture perfect, outward hi 60s, return lo 70s.Very very little traffic, few riders, ocean flat as glass, reminded me of riding in Europe the past summer

Off to dinner with buds

Happy holidays to all