Fifty Plus (50+) - Low gear salvation

I'm in the 60+ group and interested in economical options that will make it easier to climb many of the long grade, and steep, hills where I live. I have used a Compact Ultegra drive train (50/34, 11/28) for years and am considering switching everything to an Ultegra triple to benefit from the realization that the engine ain't getting any stronger, I need that small ring salvation. On the other hand I would consider a MB rear derailleur (32 or 34) and keeping my Ultegra Compact intact. Has anyone found the latter option an effectiive solution over the Triple?

I ride about 3-5 Centuries a year and am planning a 150 one day ride in 4 months.

Any help appreciated.

kgk

If you were going to get a new bike, a triple would be a good idea. But an MTB derailleur setup is much cheaper as a retrofit than a triple.

I did it on my winter bike, and my low gear is 34x34... works great.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-5RMKr9U8xP0/TNWpkxM-LDI/AAAAAAAAJ7w/oCC-fTR5nas/s800/PA300173.JPG

If you have the Ultegra long cage derailleur on the back, you can just install a wider range rear cassette. That derailleur is spec'ed for a maximum 28 tooth cog, but I run mine with a 12-32 SRAM cassette with zero issues. A 12-32 cassette with a 50-34 crank is within the take-up spec of this derailleur. You'll likely need to replace your chain with a longer one and you may need to tweak the b-screw adjustment to make sure the upper jockey wheel clears the big cog on the cassette. I've run with this combination for almost 15,000 miles over the last 2.5 years and it works great.

If you were going to get a new bike, a triple would be a good idea. But an MTB derailleur setup is much cheaper as a retrofit than a triple.

I did it on my winter bike, and my low gear is 34x34... works great.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-5RMKr9U8xP0/TNWpkxM-LDI/AAAAAAAAJ7w/oCC-fTR5nas/s800/PA300173.JPG

This will be more economical than a triple.

First, welcome to the 50+ forum.

I'm using a compact double (34 - 50) and 11-34 cassette with a Shimano Deore XT on my commuter. It works fine. I didn't have to change brifters (which would have been pretty expensive). I actually didn't even put on a longer chain. I will when this one needs to be replaced. But as long as I don't go to the 50 -34 combo, I'm fine.

It's safer to use the proper size chain. There's times in centuries that I have accidentally shifted into the big ring/big cog because my brain is kind of fried. If your chain is too short that will be the end of the ride for you and possibly the end of your frame or derailleur or wheel.

Chains only cost $35 or so, and they wear out fast so you'll be replacing it soon anyhow if you ride much.

To change to a triple it would cost you a new chain- New front Dr. And probably brifters.

To change rear cassette will cost a new chain- Probably a new Rear Dr. and the cassette. The rear Dr. and it would probably be a Mountain bike type and The lowest to recommend is LX. Xt would be better but XTR could be expensive unless you buy on a few offers that are around.

Lowest gear with a triple would be 30/28 and by changing the casssete it would be 34/34 with a doublecrank. Not much different on gearing but those 2 teeth make a difference.

Only problem I can see is that the gear ratios with a 34 will be wider- which can get annoying but if you need lower gears- you need lower gears. And for the mountains I have a triple 50/39/30 and a 12/32 cassette. 30/32 and you can climb a wall.

It's safer to use the proper size chain. There's times in centuries that I have accidentally shifted into the big ring/big cog because my brain is kind of fried. If your chain is too short that will be the end of the ride for you and possibly the end of your frame or derailleur or wheel.

Chains only cost $35 or so, and they wear out fast so you'll be replacing it soon anyhow if you ride much.

I tend not to get "fried" when I ride. The fact is that for my current commute, I don't really need to go to the big ring, and have the front derailleur adjusted so it can't.... at least until I get the new chain.

I have a compact double 50/34 with an 11-34 rear cassette. The 11-34 replaced an 12-25 cassette. I did change the RD and chain to accommodate the extra large 34 cog and longer cage RD.

Here's what I purchased and the cost;

Shimano Deore XT M771 Rear Derailleur SGS Long Cage, $69.98
Shimano Deore XT 10-Speed Cassette 11X34 $64.99
Shimano Ultegra Chain $38.99

The 34 x 34 combination is low enough to crawl up almost any grade. The extra spacing between cogs on the rear cassette actually has worked well for me. Where I used to shift up or down twice for slight elevation changes, shifting once usually puts me in the right gear. Although, this will depend on your preferred cadence. I like to spin between 85-105 rpm's, so having the wider spacing actually means less shifting, rather then more.

If you change out the RD, don't get the Shadow model, I think it's because it won't work right with the STI shifters. The M771 I listed above, says it's a 9 speed RD, but that's miss-leading, it has plenty of range for a 10-speed cassette.

You can conduct searches on other forums, but what I listed here is what I found and purchased, and it works great.

Good luck...

hmm ... you are saying that if I put an XT r/d on my bike with a 12-34 10 speed it will work with 105 brifters? I have been told that the STI road shifters would not work with any MTB r/d.

hmm ... you are saying that if I put an XT r/d on my bike with a 12-34 10 speed it will work with 105 brifters? I have been told that the STI road shifters would not work with any MTB r/d.

You've been told wrong.

Bear in mind, a derailleur is pretty dumb. It doesn't know what kind of bike it's mounted or what sort of lever is pulling its cable. It also doesn't know how many cogs are on your cassette. It doesn't have to in order to do its job.

The cable moves, and the RD moves accordingly. The lever is what decides how much cable to pull or release, and by extension, how much the derailleur moves.

In other words, it's not the derailleur that's indexed, it's the levers.

(For completeness, this refers to traditional mechanical systems. Electronic ones, like Shimano Di2 and Campagnolo EPS, have reversed where the intelligence lives. The levers or buttons are dumb, the derailleur knows how far to move based upon its current position and which button is pressed.)

I have a compact double 50/34 with an 11-34 rear cassette. The 11-34 replaced an 12-25 cassette. I did change the RD and chain to accommodate the extra large 34 cog and longer cage RD.

Here's what I purchased and the cost;

Shimano Deore XT M771 Rear Derailleur SGS Long Cage, $69.98
Shimano Deore XT 10-Speed Cassette 11X34 $64.99
Shimano Ultegra Chain $38.99

The 34 x 34 combination is low enough to crawl up almost any grade. The extra spacing between cogs on the rear cassette actually has worked well for me. Where I used to shift up or down twice for slight elevation changes, shifting once usually puts me in the right gear. Although, this will depend on your preferred cadence. I like to spin between 85-105 rpm's, so having the wider spacing actually means less shifting, rather then more.

If you change out the RD, don't get the Shadow model, I think it's because it won't work right with the STI shifters. The M771 I listed above, says it's a 9 speed RD, but that's miss-leading, it has plenty of range for a 10-speed cassette.

You can conduct searches on other forums, but what I listed here is what I found and purchased, and it works great.

Good luck...
I have this system and am very happy with it.

I'd much rather have a triple instead of an 11-34 cassette. (But I don't ride either one, I have a 34-50 and either a 12-25 or 13-29 cassette)

Via Mike Sherman's Gear Calculator:



A triple with 30-39-52 and 12-25 (it's calculator link (http://home.earthlink.net/~mike.sherman/shift.html?R0=30&R1=39&R2=52&C0=12&C1=13&C2=14&C3=15&C4=16&C5=17&C6=19&C7=21&C8=23&C9=25&C10=999&CAS=101&WI=8&CR=170&RT=1&ST=0&RPM=90&SRT=0&lRPM=82&hRMP=96&G=show&S=no&TITLE=&HL=1) -- the calculator will update it's graphs on the fly when you make changes.)

The middle chainring has very good coverage from about 13 to 20 mph, with closely spaced gears.

Each chainring is a different color on the Speed Over RPM chart.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-MNxpqgu5IQo/Tz7mYqFF79I/AAAAAAAAECk/4hJASZylhSc/s720/triple12-25.jpg




A 34-50 compact with 11-34 (it's calculator link (http://home.earthlink.net/~mike.sherman/shift.html?R0=34&R1=50&R2=NaN&C0=11&C1=13&C2=15&C3=17&C4=19&C5=21&C6=23&C7=26&C8=30&C9=34&C10=999&CAS=0&WI=8&CR=170&RT=1&ST=0&RPM=90&SRT=0&lRPM=82&hRMP=96&G=show&S=no&TITLE=&HL=1))

Bigger jumps between gears, about 2 mph per gear in the 15 mph area. I like my 1 mph jumps on my 34-50 & 12-25 setup. But the lowest gear here is actually lower than the 30-25 on the triple.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-XX2yjUWOAPU/Tz7mUddhBYI/AAAAAAAAECo/L8jdjv4-WlI/s720/34-50and11-34.jpg

Analysis paralysis. DiabloScott got it right.

The new Shimano 10 speed RDs have different geometry than everything before them and will only work right with Shimano 10 speed MTB shifters. Use a 9 speed Shimano MTB RD with any Shimano indexed road shifters, including 10 speed.

Analysis paralysis. DiabloScott got it right.

Here's the "knock" on the wide range cassette solution. It may or may not affect you.

The issue is spacing between the gears. Where you're most likely to notice it is on flat roads. I live near the junction of the Mississippi and Missouri Rivers. Between the two rivers is a flood plain area that is dead flat. If you have a gear that's right in the "sweet spot" riding in that area is great. If you don't, you're constantly trying to make do with a gear that's a teence too high or a teence too low. Either one is irritating.

Here's the "knock" on the wide range cassette solution. It may or may not affect you.

The issue is spacing between the gears. Where you're most likely to notice it is on flat roads. I live near the junction of the Mississippi and Missouri Rivers. Between the two rivers is a flood plain area that is dead flat. If you have a gear that's right in the "sweet spot" riding in that area is great. If you don't, you're constantly trying to make do with a gear that's a teence too high or a teence too low. Either one is irritating.

Have you done the Tour de Corn? I drove out a couple years ago with my wife and daughter to ride that one. Thankfully it was a foggy cool morning for the ride.

To change to a triple it would cost you a new chain- New front Dr. And probably brifters $$$

edit: AND A BOTTOM BRACKET AND CRANK!! $$$ -diabloscott.

To change rear cassette will cost a new chain- Probably a new Rear Dr. and the cassette. The rear Dr. and it would probably be a Mountain bike type and The lowest to recommend is LX. Xt would be better but XTR could be expensive unless you buy on a few offers that are around.


OP asked for ECONOMICAL options. Run the numbers.

Mine's an SLX Shadow... works fine. I have it with 9-speed downtube shifters.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-59RrBkC_hFY/TNWo6kSKRUI/AAAAAAAAJ7Y/hRZYYtGUyqQ/s800/PA300166.JPG

OP asked for ECONOMICAL options. Run the numbers.

Mine's an SLX Shadow... works fine. I have it with 9-speed downtube shifters.
Believe this is why stapfam also posted this:
To change rear cassette will cost a new chain- Probably a new Rear Dr. and the cassette. The rear Dr. and it would probably be a Mountain bike type and The lowest to recommend is LX. Xt would be better but XTR could be expensive unless you buy on a few offers that are around.

From what I've read, for STI (105, Ultegra etc...) shifters, the Shadow RD is not recommended. The Shadow RD is setup for the cable pull with the newer MTB shifters, either this or something about the Shadow rear cog set. I'm not sure why this works for you, perhaps it's because you're using down tube shifters and cable pull is different when compared to STI. At least this was how it was explained to me.

The 9 speed XT M771 Rear Derailleur SGS Long Cage works very well with 105 shifters; smooth and quick with no hesitation.

I can certainly understand why some people prefer a triple; it's really the best of both worlds; climbing gears and close gearing for spinning on flats. But the double is not a deal breaker, it can work very well with a full range of gears available without the dreaded cross chain.

At least there is more then one option available.

You've been told wrong.

Bear in mind, a derailleur is pretty dumb. It doesn't know what kind of bike it's mounted or what sort of lever is pulling its cable. It also doesn't know how many cogs are on your cassette. It doesn't have to in order to do its job.

The cable moves, and the RD moves accordingly. The lever is what decides how much cable to pull or release, and by extension, how much the derailleur moves.

In other words, it's not the derailleur that's indexed, it's the levers.

(For completeness, this refers to traditional mechanical systems. Electronic ones, like Shimano Di2 and Campagnolo EPS, have reversed where the intelligence lives. The levers or buttons are dumb, the derailleur knows how far to move based upon its current position and which button is pressed.)

+1... this is correct.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-59RrBkC_hFY/TNWo6kSKRUI/AAAAAAAAJ7Y/hRZYYtGUyqQ/s800/PA300166.JPG
Is your cogset and RD always this clean?

Yes - Between my wife and I, we've used 105 brifters with Shimano MTB rear derailleurs and 11-34 cassettes on 5 different bikes and they work just fine on every one.

Like you, I switched to the compact double years back.
Needing something that would ease the climbs I began looking into super compact doubles (Velo Orange offers two)
The one VO offers is basiclly a Sugino rd600 triple with the large chainring eliminated. It's a conversion any LBS or competent home mechanic could do (requires a longer BB tho)
Thru BF I discovered one can tweak almost any shimano derailleur to accept a 30t cog.
'What' I finally went with was VOs grand cru (the weight, the stiffness, the beauty of it) 46/30 and built up my own (two variations) 8 cog cassette. One being a 12-28 the other a 12 30.
I went with a mid cage 105 Shimano derailleur figuring I might need more chain wrap with the small 30t chainring.
It seems that most road triples don't offer a inner chainring lower than 32t.
If you're going to go with a triple (for hills) you're probably better going with a deore setup where you can get a real granny gear setup.

From what I've read, for STI (105, Ultegra etc...) shifters, the Shadow RD is not recommended. The Shadow RD is setup for the cable pull with the newer MTB shifters, either this or something about the Shadow rear cog set. I'm not sure why this works for you, perhaps it's because you're using down tube shifters and cable pull is different when compared to STI. At least this was how it was explained to me.

The 9 speed XT M771 Rear Derailleur SGS Long Cage works very well with 105 shifters; smooth and quick with no hesitation.

Shadow RDs are fine as long as they are the 9 speed type. The newer Shadow RDs are Dynasis 10 speed and do not play well with road shifters including 10 speed.

Is your cogset and RD always this clean?

HA! Not since the day I put it on... that was the "new install" shot. This is my foul weather bike, and it's usually got a layer of grunge on it. (one of the reasons I went downtube shifters... for reliability)

You've been told wrong.

Bear in mind, a derailleur is pretty dumb. It doesn't know what kind of bike it's mounted or what sort of lever is pulling its cable. It also doesn't know how many cogs are on your cassette. It doesn't have to in order to do its job.

The cable moves, and the RD moves accordingly. The lever is what decides how much cable to pull or release, and by extension, how much the derailleur moves.

In other words, it's not the derailleur that's indexed, it's the levers.

(For completeness, this refers to traditional mechanical systems. Electronic ones, like Shimano Di2 and Campagnolo EPS, have reversed where the intelligence lives. The levers or buttons are dumb, the derailleur knows how far to move based upon its current position and which button is pressed.)

yes I know all that. but thanks for all your authoritative knowledge about basics. I don't know anyone (including me) who thinks a derailleur is indexed. the issue as explained to me is how much the 105 shifter pulls the cable when you move the lever and if it moves the XT r/d the proper amount to get it to shift properly. Blues Dog, along with my LBS (2 of them) say not. Shimano says not. if you all say it works, I guess my question is, does it work well or kinda work?

Here's the "knock" on the wide range cassette solution. It may or may not affect you.

The issue is spacing between the gears. Where you're most likely to notice it is on flat roads. I live near the junction of the Mississippi and Missouri Rivers. Between the two rivers is a flood plain area that is dead flat. If you have a gear that's right in the "sweet spot" riding in that area is great. If you don't, you're constantly trying to make do with a gear that's a teence too high or a teence too low. Either one is irritating.

That right there, is why I chose a rear cassette that is spaced out by twos when I modified my gearing on the road bike last year. I started with 52-42-30 and a 12-25 rear that was not space the way I liked. I ended up with a 52-41-28 and a rear cassette spaced 12-13-15-17-19-21-23-25-27. I now absolutely love the combinations I am able to achieve on hills and level ground. Like others have said though; it may not work for others, but it works for me and that's all that matters to me.

You've been told wrong. I agree with this part and that's the bottom line answer to OP's question.


In other words, it's not the derailleur that's indexed, it's the levers. I strongly disagree with this part. Shifter and derailleur have to be designed to work with the same amount of cable pull or they aren't going to index.

I have an Ultegra triple and like it fine. I just wish the granny was a 28 instead of a 30. I've been told there is no suitable 28 tooth replacement chain ring as Shimano using some weird bolt pattern. If you know of a 28 tooth chain ring that would work please let me know!

In my ideal world I'd have the whole Ultegra 52-39-30 set up a couple of steps lower. Because, do i really need a 52-11 gear? Ever?

On topic, LanceOldStrong over in NorCal runs a long cage with 34 tooth cassette and compact gearing setup and loves it (gives him a 34-34 low end). The gaps would bother me, but he's a happy double-century camper.

Thanks for the specific feedback on parts, I'm thinking something like this is the way to go. I may keep my current set up for mostly flatter terrain. Take care.

Blues Dog, along with my LBS (2 of them) say not. Shimano says not. if you all say it works, I guess my question is, does it work well or kinda work?I've read this before, and also read the corrections people posted afterwards.

Again, with the right MTB RD, and an MTB 10 speed cassette, STI brifters shift very well; no skipping, no hesitation, very quick and responsive. Changing from a 105 RD short cage to a MTB RD long cage, I too thought shifting was going to suffer with 105 brifters. Nope, didn't happen, this system works great. Spinning at 110 rpm's or climbing hills under load, changing gears, shifting, works very well with this combination. It's really not a fluke thing, I've read where several other people have done the same thing. I have apx. 1500 miles on this setup without any further adjustments or loss in shifting performance. I've been very happy and feel good knowing I have gearing for any type of terrain.

the issue as explained to me is how much the 105 shifter pulls the cable when you move the lever and if it moves the XT r/d the proper amount to get it to shift properly.

Here's the skinny: All Shimano road shifters and brifters 8,9, and 10-speed will work with all road and MTB 8 or 9-speed derailleurs and cassettes (must be same number of speeds as the shifters) with the following exceptions:

1. Dura Ace 8-speed is unique to itself.
2. There is no number 2.

10-speed MTB systems won't work with road components.

Here's the skinny: All Shimano road shifters and brifters 8,9, and 10-speed will work with all road and MTB 8 or 9-speed derailleurs and cassettes (must be same number of speeds as the shifters) with the following exceptions:

1. Dura Ace 8-speed is unique to itself.
2. There is no number 2.

10-speed MTB systems won't work with road components.
What do you mean by this?

I'm using this RD; Shimano Deore XT M771 Rear Derailleur 9 Speed, with 10 speed 105 shifters. These don't match, but these work together.

What do you mean by this?

I'm using this RD; Shimano Deore XT M771 Rear Derailleur 9 Speed, with 10 speed 105 shifters. These don't match, but these work together.

The cassettes must be the same number of speeds as the shifters, not the derailleur.

I have a headache.

The cassettes must be the same number of speeds as the shifters, not the derailleur.Thanks. Hey, were you miss quoted above?


I have a headache.
I agree, this can all be very confusing with to much contradiction, even with Shimano.

yes I know all that. but thanks for all your authoritative knowledge about basics. I don't know anyone (including me) who thinks a derailleur is indexed. the issue as explained to me is how much the 105 shifter pulls the cable when you move the lever and if it moves the XT r/d the proper amount to get it to shift properly. Blues Dog, along with my LBS (2 of them) say not. Shimano says not. if you all say it works, I guess my question is, does it work well or kinda work?

It works perfectly with everything except the new 10 speed Dynasys derailleurs. The Dynasys shifters pull a different amount of cable than all previous shifters but the cassette cog spacing is the same as road. The derailleur geometry is different so the different cable pull results in the same movement.

I agree, this can all be very confusing with to much contradiction, even with Shimano.

One line answers on this topic are usually about 98% correct. That's adequate for most people most of the time. A 100% correct answer would probably take 98 lines.

One line answers on this topic are usually about 98% correct. That's adequate for most people most of the time. A 100% correct answer would probably take 98 lines.

This is an excellent analysis... the quest for the most terse compatibility statement is like the elusive unified field theory... or the impossible dream.

I Have 9spd XT rear derrailer and a 10 Road unit with 105 Brifters. Fitted the XT derailler as that was all I had in the spares box when the 105 Rd. went loose on me. Works fine.

As to whether the 10 spd MTB Rd's will work I cannot say but It is the shifter and Rear cassette that have to be matched on speeds on everything I have tried.

I Have 9spd XT rear derrailer and a 10 Road unit with 105 Brifters. Fitted the XT derailler as that was all I had in the spares box when the 105 Rd. went loose on me. Works fine.

Always a good policy: If you already own parts, bolt them up and see if you can make them work together. If you're buying new parts, get stuff that matches.

Ok... this is a follow-up to the first question: what about an option that includes a SRAM Apex cassette, with an Ultegra long cage derailleur on a compact 50/34 crank and STI shifters? Anyone find that to work like charm?? Thanks!

Ok... this is a follow-up to the first question: what about an option that includes a SRAM Apex cassette, with an Ultegra long cage derailleur on a compact 50/34 crank and STI shifters? Anyone find that to work like charm?? Thanks!
If someone here doesn't have the answer, do a search on RBR, what you ask was done by a member there. The person used a SRAM 11-32 cassette with the exact components you mentioned above.

I was advised to buy a MTB RD, rather then a longer cage road RD (Ultegra GS) to use with either the 11-32 or 11-34 cassette, the MTB SGS rear derailleur is designed for a maximum of a 45 tooth front chainring where the Ultegra GS Cage maximum is 39T. The Ultegra GS RD is right at the upper limit, but I believe it can work.

Ok... this is a follow-up to the first question: what about an option that includes a SRAM Apex cassette, with an Ultegra long cage derailleur on a compact 50/34 crank and STI shifters? Anyone find that to work like charm?? Thanks!

My setup:

50-34 compact crank
SRAM 12-32 cassette
Ultegra GS derailleur
Ultegra STI shifters

Works like a champ. The derailleur spec say 28T max cog, but the 32T cog works fine. 12-32 and 50-34 is well within the take-up specification of this derailleur.

Also Shimano Mt front deraillers do not play well with road shifters & vice versa. "most" rears do. be aware of "low normal" or "rapid rise"

Not all indexing was in the shifters
http://breakingchainstakinglanes.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/20110114_06a.jpg
Shimano Positron

I was advised to buy a MTB RD, rather then a longer cage road RD (Ultegra GS) to use with either the 11-32 or 11-34 cassette, the MTB SGS rear derailleur is designed for a maximum of a 45 tooth front chainring where the Ultegra GS Cage maximum is 39T. The Ultegra GS RD is right at the upper limit, but I believe it can work.

There's two different capacity figures for rear derailleurs. The first is the largest rear cog it's designed to handle. The other is the amount of chain slack it will wrap up. It's usually possible to cheat a little bit on either.

The big cog one seems to come up most often when upper jockey wheel rubs the biggest cog (or 2). Sometimes removing the "B" screw and reinstalling it from the other direction will fix it. Personally, I just use a mountain bike rear derailleur. Chain slack take up seldom rears it's head in real life riding because you never use the granny chainring with any but the largest 2 or 3 rear cogs.

Also Shimano Mt front deraillers do not play well with road shifters & vice versa.

I'm not so sure about the vice versa. Road bike front derailleurs combined with mountain bike shifters used to be a common factory spec for tandems and upper end hybrids.