That was me yelling at you from my car as you rode through the red light at Country Club and PeaceHaven, here in Winston-Salem.
You know all those cars that passed you going up the hill to the light (while the road was 3 lanes, and easy to get around you)? Now they all have to go around you again, and now the road is only 2 lanes, after you rode between the lanes of stopped vehicles, inches from each, including mine.
I can't ride anymore after a crash this summer, but when I did, I always wondered why people would sometimes throw things at me, or play chicken and see how close they could get, or yell at me. I rode carefully and always stayed as far over as possible, never passed stopped cars (stayed in line), obeyed traffic lights, etc. Why were they mad at me?
YOU are why.
If I (who rides in spirit, if not in body) can get mad at a cyclist, enough to yell out my window, just imagine how some of the less considerate, ignorant people who drive will feel.
If you read this, whoever you are, wake up and start setting a better example. People like you ruin it for the rest of us.
Sincerely,
Mike
The BikeForums Team
-adv-
This is an archived thread, you can find the full version of this thread, with images, links and more content here.
I've been known to yell "Red light!" and "Turn signal," at some of these morons out there when I'm driving.
I never wonder why drivers hate cyclists anymore. I know why.
holicow
In case you aren't sure if it was you, or not (maybe you weren't the only one). You had a plain long-sleeved red jersey, black tights, and it was about 2 pm.
Thanks
Simplebiker
While this cyclist was certainly wrong to run the red light, I personally would not generalize the behavior of one or even most cyclist to all cyclists. If a motorist is frustrated by a cyclist who rides irresponsibly, and decides to take that frustration out on me, I will blame the motorist only and not the cyclist. The same goes for motorist. If one motorist is aggressive and reckless, I will not take out my frustration with the aggressive motorist on motorist who drive responsibly. Any motorist who decides to generalize on all cyclists because of one or most bicycle riders and further decides to drive dangerously around all cyclists because of this generalization has some problmes of his/her own unrelated to the irresponsible bike rider.
mirona
While this cyclist was certainly wrong to run the red light, I personally would not generalize the behavior of one or even most cyclist to all cyclists.
That's all fine and dandy in the land of Perfect, but there are a lot of motorists out there that judge our whole group by the actions of a few.
Now I don't just go yelling stuff at random cyclists on the side of the road. If I see someone commiting an act of stupidity right in front of me, damnit, he's gonna hear about it. No, I'm not gonna swerve at him or something like that, but if I let him on his way without some verbal whiplash, he's going to think he did nothing wrong and continue to muck up the streets.
Bekologist
Don't yell, it's not nice. Mad because a cyclist cut lanes at a stop and ran the red? Don't be such a hothead.
JavaMan
It's one thing to honk at a cyclist to let him or her know you are not happy with the way they are riding. I sometimes do that myself.
I't quite another thing to start imagining that other people are to blame for your problems. Try to resist the urge!
Tom
ukmtk
One of the enjoyable aspects of cycling is cycling down lanes of stationary cars.
What is wrong with that!?
Honking or shouting at a cyclist is not very clever as it may cause a weaker cyclist to crash.
seely
One of the enjoyable aspects of cycling is cycling down lanes of stationary cars.
What is wrong with that!?
Other than its completely illegal, nothing! :rolleyes:
mirona
One of the enjoyable aspects of cycling is cycling down lanes of stationary cars.
What is wrong with that!?
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=75704
mirona
Don't yell, it's not nice. Mad because a cyclist cut lanes at a stop and ran the red? Don't be such a hothead.
Let me guess, you're the same guy that replies in the "Another cyclist dead" threads and says that the cars are all to blame and bla bla bla.
The sad truth is that there are a lot of cyclists out there breaking laws and don't think much of it. As soon as they die or get hit, we say "Oh, that's terrible. Damn cagers!" Now I'm not saying that everyone that gets hit is breaking the law. If they are, they don't deserve my sympathy.
supcom
Sounds like somebody is upset because he had to slow down twice to pass a cyclist.
Admit it. It's really not about running a red light.
The Rob
Arrogant cyclists make me as angry as arrogant motorists. Nah, make that more angry. At the intersection closest to my place of work we've had two incidents this year wherein some twit on a bike rode straight into the rear of a vehicle after having ignored a stop sign. Both of them earned a trip to the emergency room.
I've been cut off at the same intersection in my car by "cyclists" who could plainly see that I had stopped first and yet blithely sailed through (one or two of them have even raised their hands in a friendly gesture as thanks to me for aiding and abetting their careless behavior). I would have liked to have chased them down and explained at length to them the error of their ways; to continue the fantasy, they are always contrite and offer up their helmets to me to better facilitate my sharp raps to their skulls. As this is unlikely to happen, I instead merely point to the stop sign and hope that they're overcome by remorse. Thus far I've no evidence that this has ever occured.
holicow
Interesting responses. I am glad others at least understand that, like it or not, every cyclist is a representative of the group. In the real world, non-cyclists (in cars), form their opinion of our group by what they see and experience. Believe me, the bad is remembered more than the good.
Sounds like somebody is upset because he had to slow down twice to pass a cyclist.
Admit it. It's really not about running a red light.
As for this: I was turning on to the road ahead of him, from a parts store near the intersection, as he was coming up the hill...that's the first I saw of him. I saw him next about 2 inches from my window as he snaked between the lanes, then ran the red. I was in the right-turn lane, turning right of course. I never had to pass him, but he passed me.
And I don't mind at all slowing down to pass another cyclist. I'm the guy that would wave at every car that passed me safely. "There's that crazy waving bike guy, again. Just wave back and maybe he will stop."
So there.
Dutchy
Other than its completely illegal, nothing! :rolleyes:
Luckily down here it isn't illegal, I'd never get anywhere otherwise. We are allowed to pass stationary and moving cars on the left (passenger side).
CHEERS.
Mark
Rowan
... unless they are indicating to turn left.
Dchiefransom
Luckily down here it isn't illegal, I'd never get anywhere otherwise. We are allowed to pass stationary and moving cars on the left (passenger side).
CHEERS.
Mark
From some of the posts on this forum, it sounds like many would wait in a mile long line of cars at a light in rush hour traffic, rahter than ride by on the right side in a wide lane. I don't ride up between the lanes of cars, but I do ride up to the light on the right hand side, if it's clear. On most roads here, that means a nice, wide, striped bike lane.
Chris L
Interesting responses. I am glad others at least understand that, like it or not, every cyclist is a representative of the group. In the real world, non-cyclists (in cars), form their opinion of our group by what they see and experience. Believe me, the bad is remembered more than the good.
Alright, I'll stop you there. A bit of research and you'll realise that motorists (and everyone else for that matter) form their opinions of others on the basis of their own prejudices moreso than anything else. Why is it that some can experience a situation like the one you describe, and judge the entire group, while others can see it for what it is (i.e. one lunatic)? It's because we always see what we want to see.
Here's a tip: Spend some time riding around some different areas in different parts of the country. You'll soon notice that the areas with the worst treatment of cyclists are the same ones with high levels of other forms of bigotry (such as racism or homophobia). I suspect it's the same bigots in all cases.
Also interesting to note that you seem more upset about "giving me a bad name" than any belief that running a red light is wrong. It might be time to ask who's the self-centred, arrogant one here.
Daily Commute
The cyclist shouldn't have run the light, but one thing I hate is when cars pass me just before a red light. I often pace myself so I hit the light as it turns green. But when a car races past me and stops, I have two choices, stop behind it or pass it. I generally pass it.
Cars sometimes get in my way, too. Once, a line of cars passed me going up a hill. I was going 10-15 mph, they were going 25 mph. On the way down the other side, they stayed at 25 mph, I passed them going 30 mph.
Cars should follow the same rule cyclists do when passing--don't pass unless you can stay ahead. Cars must also realize that sometimes cyclists will cause them to slow down. Sometimes more than once.
Holicow, how long was your total delay caused by this cyclist? My guess is that you put more time into typing out your post than you spent delayed by the cyclist.
holicow
Holicow, how long was your total delay caused by this cyclist? My guess is that you put more time into typing out your post than you spent delayed by the cyclist.
Read my last post. I was not delayed at all by him, I never had to go around him. But others did, and some of them twice. I venture the second time was not as gracious as the first, especially that the road narrowed to 2 lanes after the light he blew throught.
I don't mind slowing for other cyclists. Why would I? I appreciated it when cars slowed for me, and enjoy doing the same for other riders. What bothers me is flaunting/breaking the rules. A lot of the population sees cyclists as narcissistic elitists who think rules don't apply to them, and what this guy did reinforces that perception. They (the neanderthals that are prone to this) take out their dislike on the next rider they see. There are a lot of those (neanderthals, that is) around here.
Some of the resonses here also reinforce that view, don't they?
Bekologist
Some of your cro-magnon is showing, holicow.
Cyclists ride on two lane roads ALL THE TIME. Cars pass bikes ALL THE TIME. And you were yelling because he passed between you in a right hand turn lane and the straight lanes of traffic, and ran a red light? I don't think self loving elitism is a motivating factor for a cyclist while disobaying traffic laws, it's forward momentum. You need to cool out. And you say you are (were) a cyclist? Don't be such a hothead.
Daily Commute
As I said, the cyclist should not have run the red, but I will sometimes thread through traffic at a light if the traffic has passed me as I approached the light. I'm not saying this is the smartest thing in the world to do, but it's a little pay back for passing me rudely. In this case, the drivers should not have passed the cyclist if they were approaching a red light.
holicow
Good grief, I didn't expect to be chastised for wanting someone to follow traffic laws. Do any of you who disagree with me get heckled or brushed to the side when you ride? What is your response when it happens? Do you give the one-finger salute and get mad when it happens again? Do you expect everyone else to watch out for you and get upset when they don't?
It's also for his own good, too, and that's why the laws exist, to protect everyone.
And they are not subject to the discretion of an individual. That is a major intersection where he blew off the red, and the site of frequent car accidents. He could have easily become a statistic. Is it only bad if something bad happens? Give me a break.
Daily Commute
Running a red at the interection you describe sounds nuts. That's one of the few things I wish cops were more aggressive about ticketing. Weaving through stopped traffic is generally dangerous. The key is to make sure you integrate yourself back into the line before it starts moving. If you can't do that, you should wait your turn.
And I only said weaving through traffic was excusable when you pass cars that should have waited their turn behind you. Cars shouldn't pass bikes only to slam on their brakes at a red light. I don't know if that's the case here.
ukmtk
But do the motorists that complain about cyclists jumping red lights religiously obey the speed limits!?
I don't think so.
When in a car I do obey the speed limits.
mirona
Some of your cro-magnon is showing, holicow.
Cyclists ride on two lane roads ALL THE TIME. Cars pass bikes ALL THE TIME. And you were yelling because he passed between you in a right hand turn lane and the straight lanes of traffic, and ran a red light? I don't think self loving elitism is a motivating factor for a cyclist while disobaying traffic laws, it's forward momentum. You need to cool out. And you say you are (were) a cyclist? Don't be such a hothead.
So you condone cyclists running red lights? You're the man now, dawg.
Take two seconds out of your 'supposedly' homo erectus life and think for once. He is not coming here to complain about the cylist going down the lane and passing the cars. The problem is when that moron runs the red light he is putting peoples' lives in danger, including his own.
Jerks like that give us all a bad name.
emilymildew
Wait, so it's okay for a car to pass me if I am biking slower than he or she is driving, but it's not okay for me to pass the car when the situation is reversed?
That makes NO sense. Red light running is an entirely other topic, but that makes no sense.
John Ridley
Running a red light is an absolute no-no. I will not do it no matter what vehicle I'm riding/driving, even at a light in the middle of nowhere and I haven't seen a car for an hour.
However, I have no problem passing cars, assuming it's safe. This means there's either a plenty wide lane or a good shoulder. They pass me, I pass them. But I stop at the light.
However, the guy who's the subject of this thread did both wrong if the post is accurate; he passed a group of cars in a lane that was too narrow to do it safely, and then ran a red light at the end of it.
People like that are the sort that wind up on the evening news, posthumously.
randya
The sad truth is that there are a lot of cyclists out there breaking laws and don't think much of it.
The sad truth is that 95% of all motorists are in violation of the law every time they get in a vehicle and drive due to the fact that they are disobeying the posted speed limits, rolling through stop signs w/o coming to a complete stop, not using their turn signals, running red lights or committing any number of other infractions, and they don't think much of it, either - in fact it's generally considered socially acceptable behavior.
So what's your point again? :rolleyes:
Chris L
It's also for his own good, too, and that's why the laws exist, to protect everyone.
And they are not subject to the discretion of an individual. That is a major intersection where he blew off the red, and the site of frequent car accidents. He could have easily become a statistic. Is it only bad if something bad happens? Give me a break.
In that case, here's a suggestion. How about taking the complaint to the police? That's likely to be far more productive than whining about it here, where the perpetrator is unlikely to even see it.
Oh, sorry. Wrong forum for positive suggestions.
zonatandem
Quit talking, start riding!
mirona
So what's your point again? :rolleyes:
My point was about CYCLISTS breaking the law, not cars. I agree that a lot of motorists do break the laws often, but we're not talking about that, we're talking about cyclists who break the law.
In the future, try not to derail a topic just so you can use your rolleyes smiley.
Bekologist
I thought this thread was about some hothead that was yelling at a fellow cyclist.
manboy
Come on, guys. Lighten up. If I see a big stopped line of metal objects, I'm going to pass them (carefully!) just the same as if I was walking. Otherwise, as has been said, there's no getting anywhere.
I think if the cars can pass me in the same lane, I'm gonna pass them in the same lane too.
I don't think the laws are always made with our best interest in mind. Just look at the anti-critical mass crackdown. At its best, critical mass IS vehicular cycling.
Now, running a red light? In traffic, no. But I know there's no way my little bike is going to trip the light. If there's no one coming, I'm gonna go through it.
There's way more to effective riding and living than "because it's the law."
holicow
Also interesting to note that you seem more upset about "giving me a bad name" than any belief that running a red light is wrong.
Where did I write that? Re-read my post, if you would, and you can see I am concerned about riders in general, not just me. (Especially since I can't ride anymore) Don't mis-quote me to try to support your view.
.....Why is it that some can experience a situation like the one you describe, and judge the entire group, while others can see it for what it is (i.e. one lunatic)? It's because we always see what we want to see.
No, it's human nature.
It might be time to ask who's the self-centred, arrogant one here.
And who highlights their posts in red?
holicow
I thought this thread was about some hothead that was yelling at a fellow cyclist.
:) Yep, that' me. Ol' Hothead. Maybe I should change my screen name.
My mother-in-law, who was riding in the car with me, probably thinks I'm unstable now :D
Mars
Well, I'm concerned that your actions are going to reflect badly on other car drivers. I just hope that some cyclist, after hearing you screaming out your windows, doesn't take it out on the next car he sees and kicks in their door or D locks their side window. Maybe you should think twice and reflect on how it might affect the rest of us.
Chucklehead
Other than its completely illegal, nothing! :rolleyes:
what state are you in? in california it's perfectly legal to "lane share" if you are on two wheels(motor or no motor). it is generally safer for the two-wheelist to make his or her way through still traffic than to sit completely vulnerable. given that the basic rules of the road are the same for a cyclist as they are for a driver, what are you supposed to do if you want to make a left-hand turn in rush hour traffic? wait in line with the cars? i don't think so. just make your way through it all safely and let people know you're there. what it comes down to is whether you have the skill and/or responsibility to do it safely.
holicow
Well, I'm concerned that your actions are going to reflect badly on other car drivers. I just hope that some cyclist, after hearing you screaming out your windows, doesn't take it out on the next car he sees and kicks in their door or D locks their side window. Maybe you should think twice and reflect on how it might affect the rest of us.
Hmm...clever. But who was breaking the law here? Not me. I can yell as much as I want, but nobody is allowed to blow through red lights, no matter what vehicle, or state of entitlement.
Having the ability to put yourself in anothers shoes helps understand the situation. It seems that skill is lacking here.
Pretend, for a moment, that you are Joe Schmoe car guy. You don't exercise, are angry a lot, drink too much, and think folks who aren't like you or don't think like you are inferior or "uppity". You've had a couple of beers, working on your car, are trying to get to the car parts store to get some oil, and see some skinny guy on a bike riding in the road ahead of you. You think "look at that @#%$#, in his Spandex. What a ##$$. I gotta go around HIM. He's lucky I don't just run over him."
You pass the bike, not moving over very much just to "scare him a little." Heh, heh..
You come to the light, and stop behind a few cars. Next thing you know, that little #$% is passing the right side of your car, real close, up to the FRONT OF THE LINE, and then rides through the light.
WTF!!!
Now he's ahead of you again!! " I'll get him this time....."
Poguemahone
It is legal to pass cars on the right when riding a bicycle in the state of Virginia.
Chris L. is a substitute teacher and uses the colour red to grade papers.
Bekologist
If you're yelling at some cyclist out of a car, you ARE Joe Schmoe.
holicow
If you're yelling at some cyclist out of a car, you ARE Joe Schmoe.
No, no...I'm Hothead, remember?
And he was going between the right and middle lanes, so he was passing cars on the right and left. Is that still legal? I doubt it.
But does Joe care? Nope. He thinks it should be illegal to ride a bike anywhere in the road. Especially wherever he is at that moment.
Remember that next time you run a red or excuse yourself to the front of the line, or you inconvience anybody in a car because you think you deserve special treatment just because you ride a bike.
Karldar
In that case, here's a suggestion. How about taking the complaint to the police? That's likely to be far more productive than whining about it here, where the perpetrator is unlikely to even see it.
In regards to other motorized vehicles, I have never found this approach to be at all productive. I have been told that the only way to take someone to task for breaking traffic laws(speeding, running lights/signs, reckless driving) was to follow the suspect vehicle until the police could reach you. IF the other driver gave them cause to pull them over(weaving, expired tags, lighting issues) AND there were witnesses/footage of them performing the actions you were tailing them for you might get something done. Otherwise, I doubt it would accomplish much more than wasting time. Actually, I was told as much. How many people are going to stop and take time to corroborate your account? Has anyone here equipped their vehicle with a video camera?(I'm seriously considering it and I only drive 7 miles to work one way.) Contacting the police might give one a chance to vent, I suppose. Obviously, different rules apply to different places, but I don't see much happening without proof and/or witnesses. Police have better things to do with their time than chase down every alleged speeder. How many of those accounting violations might be pranksters? It seriously pissed me off, but that's my experience thus far. Don't see why it would be any different for non-motorized vehicles.
Bekologist
You do sound an awful lot like a hotheaded Joe Schmoe, screaming out your car window at a cyclists' traffic transgressions.
Karldar
You do sound an awful lot like a hotheaded Joe Schmoe, screaming out your car window at a cyclists' traffic transgressions.
So if a group ride was stopped at a light and a cager squeezed between them and went through the intersection, none of the cyclists would/should spew invective at him for his traffic transgression? I don't understand what's so wrong about calling someone on being irresponsible. People get away with it(irresponsiblity) more than they should anyway, IMO.
Mars
I believe that all people are accountable for their own actions. In my little sarcastic piece above, I tried to show the absurdity of blaming the actions of a violent and aggressive auto driver on how a irresponsible cyclist rides. Personally, I don't care for anyone who causes inconvienience, increases risk to others, or causes bad feelings because of their personal behavior. Regardless of these people, we are still directly responsible for our actions and attitudes.
a recent survey found that 75% of drivers were angry all or most of the time that they drive. They are angry at all kinds of things, I imagine, and annoyances from cyclists are likely a small addition to the host of inflammatory stimuli they encounter. If you are yelling out the window at the cyclist because you don't like thier behavior, that's fine (I guess) but I wouldn't justify it on the oft cited grounds that their ill considered behavior could cause aggression/ill will towards cyclists in general. If that were really true, there wouldn't be a meter maid alive in the city....
randya
My point was about CYCLISTS breaking the law, not cars. I agree that a lot of motorists do break the laws often, but we're not talking about that, we're talking about cyclists who break the law.
And I'm asking you why there should be a double standard:
Cyclists who break the law = bad behavior and poor reflection on all cyclists despite relatively low risk :rolleyes:
Motorists who break the law = *shrug*; very high risk behavior is viewed as socially acceptable :(
I disagree with you on the "poor reflection on all cyclists" part, by the way. To each their own. My advice: you should worry about your own riding style, and not about what anybody or everybody else is doing... :)
randya
And he was going between the right and middle lanes, so he was passing cars on the right and left. Is that still legal? I doubt it.
As previously pointed out, this IS legal in California.
But does Joe care? Nope. He thinks it should be illegal to ride a bike anywhere in the road. Especially wherever he is at that moment..
Joe doesn't know Jack. If this is Joe's understanding of the rules of the road, his license and his privledge to operate a motor vehicle on public roads should be revoked.
Remember that next time you run a red or excuse yourself to the front of the line, or you inconvience anybody in a car because you think you deserve special treatment just because you ride a bike.
I don't think I deserve special treatment; I just don't like breathing the pollution that comes out the back ends of all those cars. That is my primary reason for going to the front of the line.
And yes, if they can pass me when we're moving, I'm gonna pass them back when they're stopped. If the signals are timed right, sometimes I can be passed by and repass the same motorist three or four times; I'm maintaining a relatively constant speed and they are jackrabbitting from light to light and waiting at each one... :)
cycleopath
well ive had this coversation more than once with other cyclkist and we do think that bad cycling does make motorist treat us all with less respect, i obey the highway code, i dont know about passing parked cars, i do this, i think kt is legal to do so in the uk, if its not im sorry but i dont care about that, i never jumpo lights though and always ride saftley, but io do noitice some motorist are just idiots and like scaring cyclists, lingering behind us when there plenty of room to overtake revving there engine, trying to force me into the gutter, i will NOT ride as near to the curb as possible just so some motoriust can get to wher he wants to go that little bit faster, i will ride where i feel most comftorble, all the debris fro car accident, people boozing sessions seems to enbd up on the side of the road where we are supposed to ride, so i visiulaise a cycle path and stay in that width, if that means a car has toi slow down and wait till he can overtake, so what! this is what some motorist said to me , we have more rights than you because we pay taxes well that really narked me, theres good iand bad ion all motorist and cyclists, but generaly if a motorist does something bad not all cyclists ding the re bell, horn wave there fists or whatever, well now there is one that doies take action, ME, a year or so ago, i was cycling along, completel.y safe and withing the law, i was at a roundabout had right of way and had crossed the lines when this car just decided he was gonna go anyway and sod the stupid cyclist, he probbaly thought he could pull away faster than me but i was travelibng at speed and probably going just as fast as a car, which of course he would of given way to if i were a car cos it woukld of damaged his precious car if it hit him, if i hit him the worst hed get is a lil dent and maybe a scratch, well i had to hit my brakes hard, and as most cyclist will know stopping in the middle of a busy roundabout is not fun, i caught up with tht jerk and punched hsi wing mirror! another incident taht springs to mind is when this car wa doing its let me out pleasde thing, edginmg out slowly into the traffic hopeing some generous person will stop and allow them out, well i was cycling along at a nice speed, and the car alongside me was slowing to a stop but in wasnt going to stop, its not a law that says you have to let someone out, its courtesy, well im sorry but its harder for me to buiod up momentum after stopping than it is for a motorist to wautr a bit and put his foot on the accelerator, she saw the car stoppiung and pulled out, i went into her wind and in a almost comical way landed on her bonnet, it was actually quite funny cos i wasnt hurt but just laying on the bonnet and turning round to face the driver seeing her shocked expression and yelling you stupid @@@@@@ her reply was what annoyed me the most, im so sorry, i didnt see you, i was concentrationg on the traffic, excuse me I am part of the traffic am i not? so next time any motorist get annoyd at cyclist because we slowed you down a bit, remember the thinbgs we have to put up with, if all we do is slow cars down its nothing compared to injuring or maybe killing a cyclist, just my cheese and onion sandwiches worth
richmyer
Running a red light is an absolute no-no. I will not do it no matter what vehicle I'm riding/driving, even at a light in the middle of nowhere and I haven't seen a car for an hour.
I really don't believe you.