Classic & Vintage - Can I create an early 70's Campy NR 'thin wall' BB question

Hi
I am having trouble finding a 70-SS-120 (113mm) BB with thin wall/flat face cups for a 72 Cinelli SC restoration.
Can I combine the 113mm spindle from 70-SS-120 BB with thick cups with the thin wall cups from a 70-SS BB (normally 110mm spindle) to create the correct BB I am after?

A thin wall Campa cup is a thin wall Campa cup. Yes you can.

Near as I can figure it, you're trying to substitute a thick-cup Italian spindle for a thin-cup English spindle, no? If so, I'm quite sure the raceway spacing is still insufficient.

Your best bet is to pick up a set of the proper thick cups.

-Kurt

Not sure of the question... You can use a 68 thin spindle with 70 thick cups, but the lock ring won't come out quite right. Otherwise, no, the thin and thick parts don't mix, at least in 120 which I'm familiar with.

Send me a message, I may have parts to help once I understand your problem and what you need. Just a thin spindle?

You can use the dimensional data and "mix-and-match" information in Sutherland's Manual to do the math yourself. You can find the 4th edition here:
http://www.velobase.com/velobase.com/Resource_Tools/CatalogScans.aspx

You may need to register with VeloBase to see it: it's the last thing on the page.

Okay...i am going to walk back the cat here.....

237900237901237902

These pages should provide your answer. You are going to need to measure the "shoulders" of the spindle. Charts two and three are the ones you want to look at as those are the spindles for a Record aka thin cup BB. i think you are looking for 56mm. I have my doubts on the 70-SS-120 working with the thin cups since you said it came with thick cups. That would make it a Nuovo Record spindle and its measurements are different (too small for thin cups)

Hi
I am having trouble finding a 70-SS-120 (113mm) BB with thin wall/flat face cups for a 72 Cinelli SC restoration.
Can I combine the 113mm spindle from 70-SS-120 BB with thick cups with the thin wall cups from a 70-SS BB (normally 110mm spindle) to create the correct BB I am after?

The way this is written it is a bit unclear.
From my read you want to take a Nuovo Record bottom bracket set that has thick rifled cups and want to install the spindle into your Cinelli with thin, non rifled cups. If so, no go.
The thick cup bearing lands are too close to centerline, the adjustable cup will eventually adjust but there may be no threads available for the lock ring, and the chain line will be off.
Remember, the thin to rifled cups migration happened before the CPSC dimension modifications to the cranks and spindle dimensions.

As this is an older frame and things happen, how wide is the bottom bracket shell right now?

Hi All
Thankyou for your responses and apologies for the confusion - in most part it was because I completely had the wrong end of the stick to start with - thinking 'Flat face cup' and 'thin cup' were the same thing. I am now slightly better informed. I now know what a flat face fixed cup is and that a '72 Cinelli SC had one. What I am yet to confirm - due to conflicting information from helpers - is whether the frame needs NR rifled thick cups or thin cups. Unfortunately the frame is on the other side of the country so I will have to wait to get it back and measure the bottom bracket width.
Sorry to waste your time

No waste. The rifled NR cups came only as thick. Thin cups are Record. There is no such animal as a thin wall NR cup.

No waste. The rifled NR cups came only as thick. Thin cups are Record. There is no such animal as a thin wall NR cup.

Just to clarify, there are such cups - they were used with Record triple spindles.

Granted, they're probably mistaken for Nuovo Gran Sport cups most of the time, but Campagnolo did specify such cups for the (Nuovo) Record triple.

-Kurt

Just to clarify, there are such cups - they were used with Record triple spindles.

Granted, they're probably mistaken for Nuovo Gran Sport cups most of the time, but Campagnolo did specify such cups for the (Nuovo) Record triple.

-Kurt

Kurt, I beg to disagree. The NR cups were only road double. See the attachment in post 6 of this thread. It clearly states the NR cups were only road double use on attachment 2 and then goes on to say on attachment 3 that the NR cup is distinguished by rifling in the cup. It also states on attachment 2 that the Record cup was used for Pista and Triple. Ergo there is no such thing as a rifled NR triple crank cup. Granted people are going to call the thin wall non-rifled cup on a triple NR because it is part of a "NR" triple crank. But that is not correct.

No combination of cups is ever going to shrink the overall length of your spindle.

Okay...i am going to walk back the cat here.....

237900237901237902

These pages should provide your answer. You are going to need to measure the "shoulders" of the spindle. Charts two and three are the ones you want to look at as those are the spindles for a Record aka thin cup BB. i think you are looking for 56mm. I have my doubts on the 70-SS-120 working with the thin cups since you said it came with thick cups. That would make it a Nuovo Record spindle and its measurements are different (too small for thin cups)

Lynn, may I ask if there is a place on the net where this extremely helpful file is located, so I can print it out, so I can read it?
Can't get enough res here to see this properly. Thanks. Scott

Also, I find this whole subject perplexing. Can someone please tell me what is the difference between the Nuovo Record "smooth face"
cups, for instance, and the cups, which I also presume are Nuovo Record but later, with the "recessed" faces? I always thought the "recessed" face ones were thick cup but that's probably wrong. I have the older, flat or smooth face model on a bike, and a set of recessed face NOS spares. Are they inter-changable? Thx.

Kurt, I beg to disagree. The NR cups were only road double. See the attachment in post 6 of this thread. It clearly states the NR cups were only road double use on attachment 2 and then goes on to say on attachment 3 that the NR cup is distinguished by rifling in the cup. It also states on attachment 2 that the Record cup was used for Pista and Triple. Ergo there is no such thing as a rifled NR triple crank cup. Granted people are going to call the thin wall non-rifled cup on a triple NR because it is part of a "NR" triple crank. But that is not correct.

In short, it was one of those oddball Record bits that Campagnolo never tacked the "Nuovo" prefix upon, even though that part's sole purpose was to interact with a component considered to be "Nuovo Record."

Oy vey.

-Kurt

Also, I find this whole subject perplexing. Can someone please tell me what is the difference between the Nuovo Record "smooth face"
cups, for instance, and the cups, which I also presume are Nuovo Record but later, with the "recessed" faces? I always thought the "recessed" face ones were thick cup but that's probably wrong. I have the older, flat or smooth face model on a bike, and a set of recessed face NOS spares. Are they inter-changable? Thx.

The smooth cups pre-date the 1978 CPSC revisions. The recessed-face design replaced it, along with the revised spindles mentioned in CV's scans of Record News.

-Kurt

Thanks Kurt. As I can't quite read those scans, are the old and newer cups inter-changable? In other words, can I for instance, swap out the old style cups with newer style ones, and use the same spindle? Or did they change the dimensions of the spindle lands?

Lynn, may I ask if there is a place on the net where this extremely helpful file is located, so I can print it out, so I can read it?
Can't get enough res here to see this properly. Thanks. Scott

Also, I find this whole subject perplexing. Can someone please tell me what is the difference between the Nuovo Record "smooth face"
cups, for instance, and the cups, which I also presume are Nuovo Record but later, with the "recessed" faces? I always thought the "recessed" face ones were thick cup but that's probably wrong. I have the older, flat or smooth face model on a bike, and a set of recessed face NOS spares. Are they inter-changable? Thx.

I know I gave them to VeloBase, but I can never find it. I just uploaded it to my flickr account. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/cv-6enterprises/sets/72157629402395845/) My thanks to the kind person who sent this to me a few years ago. It has proven useful many times.


In short, it was one of those oddball Record bits that Campagnolo never tacked the "Nuovo" prefix upon, even though that part's sole purpose was to interact with a component considered to be "Nuovo Record."

Oy vey.

-Kurt

Bingo


The smooth cups pre-date the 1978 CPSC revisions. The recessed-face design replaced it, along with the revised spindles mentioned in CV's scans of Record News.

-Kurt

Yurp. Gotta love it

I know I gave them to VeloBase, but I can never find it. I just uploaded it to my flickr account. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/cv-6enterprises/sets/72157629402395845/) My thanks to the kind person who sent this to me a few years ago. It has proven useful many times.

AH. Got it! Thank you.

Just to clarify, there are such cups - they were used with Record triple spindles.

Granted, they're probably mistaken for Nuovo Gran Sport cups most of the time, but Campagnolo did specify such cups for the (Nuovo) Record triple.

-Kurt

As far as I know, the triple spindles were only made for the older thin cups.

Thanks Kurt. As I can't quite read those scans, are the old and newer cups inter-changable? In other words, can I for instance, swap out the old style cups with newer style ones, and use the same spindle? Or did they change the dimensions of the spindle lands?

I've been able to use later Triomphe and Victory thin cups with Record (NR era) Pista and triple spindles; same for for Nuovo Gran Sport cups, which are thin as well. There is no difference in geometry. Ditto for thick cups with thick spindles.

Exceptions include Super Record's aluminum cups (with smaller bearings to fit the pressed steel raceways); I believe this applies to C-Record and post-1990 Record as well. Not enough of this later stuff has fallen into my lap to assist my memorization of it - yet.

-Kurt

In short, it was one of those oddball Record bits that Campagnolo never tacked the "Nuovo" prefix upon, even though that part's sole purpose was to interact with a component considered to be "Nuovo Record."

Oy vey.

-Kurt

Not exactly. The triple (Record!) crank, which has a relatively long spindle, cantilevers the drive-side arm out more (from the bearings) than a (Record!) double does, so apparently Campagnolo didn't want to aggravate that condition by using a narrower bearing spacing (i.e. an NR spindle instead of Record). Track BBs didn't need the dirt-repelling feature, and they likely wanted to keep those as stiff as possible, so only the double BBs were new (Nuovo) in 1967.

As has been mentioned maybe a zillion times, by geeks like me, only 2.5 components in a "Nuovo Record group" are in fact Nuovo Record: the rear derailleur, the BB, and sometimes the headset boxes were marked 'Nuovo Record,' but sometimes they weren't. Same parts inside in either case. Everything else is/was a Record component.
Unfortunately, Campagnolo has way overused the marketing term "Record" over the decades. That certainly hasn't helped.

Not exactly. The triple (Record!) crank, which has a relatively long spindle, cantilevers the drive-side arm out more (from the bearings) than a (Record!) double does, so apparently Campagnolo didn't want to aggravate that condition by using a narrower bearing spacing (i.e. an NR spindle instead of Record). Track BBs didn't need the dirt-repelling feature, and they likely wanted to keep those as stiff as possible, so only the double BBs were new (Nuovo) in 1967.

As has been mentioned maybe a zillion times, by geeks like me, only 2.5 components in a "Nuovo Record group" are in fact Nuovo Record: the rear derailleur, the BB, and sometimes the headset boxes were marked 'Nuovo Record,' but sometimes they weren't. Same parts inside in either case. Everything else is/was a Record component.
Unfortunately, Campagnolo has way overused the marketing term "Record" over the decades. That certainly hasn't helped.

In other words, I'm right.

-Kurt

Just to clarify, what the OP seems to be asking about is the earliest ('flat-faced' or 'smooth-faced') Nuovo Record fixed cup, vs. the later ('recessed-face') Nuovo Record fixed cup.
Only the fixed cup changed, and the two types are not functionally any different.

"Thin" cups are the Record/GS/Triomphe/Victory/Chorus type. No spiral 'rifling' where the spindle passes through.

You have to keep this stuff straight because each 'thick' cup moves the bearings inboard 2.5 mm (so 5.0 mm for a pair of cups) vs. a 'thin' cup.

The bearing shoulders on the Nuovo Record spindles are therefore 5.0 mm closer together than they are on a Record/GS/Victory/Triomphe/Chorus spindles (for a given BB shell width)....

In other words, I'm right.

-Kurt


Nope. They never added "Nuovo" to anything but those 2.5 components.

Nope. They never added "Nuovo" to anything but those 2.5 components.

I got it now.

Granted, if at least one crankset box is found to proclaim "Nuovo Record" on the box art instead of "Record," the universe of Campagnolo collectibles will implode.

-Kurt