Tandem Cycling - Tandem category in organized rides

It is fun doing organized rides on a tandem, and it it better still when your team can register as a tandem. It adds visibility to tandems, makes the registration easier, and can ease the expense if the tandem registration is made somewhat less than twice the singles price.

Last year I considered registering for the Sea Otter Gran Fondo (http://www.seaotterclassic.com/index.cfm/general_information.htm), but balked when I saw that there was no specific registration for tandems, it was an expensive ride, and 2x that for a tandem entry. So, I found the event organizer and emailed him.


Jeff--

I am thinking of doing the Gran Fondo on our tandem. But I probably won't because it is too dang expensive!

If you look at it, the Carmel Valley Route is mainly for men. Last year there were 305 men and 48 women, a ratio of more than 6:1. My stoker is not going to be doing any of these rides on her own. So if I do this on my own, it is already a much-more-expensive-than-usual $95, but if I go with my stoker, it is a can't-justify $190 ($95 x 2).

Tandems:

Tandems may ride any Gran Fondo route. Each tandem rider must register separately.


I note that on last year's Gran Fondo there were hundreds of riders and a total of one (1) tandem. And this on a fairly tandem-friendly course. This might be a clue that the market rejects $190 for one bicycle entry.

I just completed the Reedley Blossom Ride with a group of 5 tandems. There was no break on tandems, but the Registration was half the cost of the GranFondo. So too could I ride the nearby Tierra Bella Century the same day on our tandem (as we did last year) for the half the price of the Gran Fondo.

I'd like to promote the GranFondo among other tandem enthusiasts, and so get more tandems involved. The timing part is neat as we think the tandems could do well in comparison to singles, but there are going to be few takers for $190, and fewer still on April 1 when it becomes $235.

And if tandems aren't doing the Gran Fondo, neither are they visiting the Sea Otter Classic, and so Sea Otter misses these often well-heeled bicycle enthusiasts.

So, I hope you'll take another look at the registration fees in hopes of encouraging greater tandem participation.

Sincerely,

Ritterview


He replied:


Ritterview:

Thanks for the e mail.

I appreciate the time it takes to write a thoughtful, insightful explanation –

The event offers significant number of discounts through our event sponsors – including an “early bird” discount that runs from November 1 to December 31. Plus any number of other 10% and 20% discounts.

We just finished up with a Bicycling Magazine offered discount of entry fees.

We are super-sensitive to the expense of attending Sea Otter but truly believe we offer a great value in each entry fee – free parking, Festival Pass valued at $30, and of course all the bells and whistles of a Gran Fondo ride – meal, post-ride massage, raffle prizes, etc.

Having said that, let me see if there is anything we can do for you and your group of tandems.

Thanks again for the feedback – it is truly appreciated!

Sea Otter Classic - Monterey, CA
Director of Athlete Services
April 14-17, 2011
Event Information/Hotline 1-800-218-8411
www.seaotterclassic.com

Well, my activism, paid off! This year there is tandem registration (http://www.seaotterclassic.com/index.cfm/general_information.htm).:thumb:

The only problem is, that the cost for the tandem is still $190 --the $95 single registration x 2.:rolleyes:


GRAN FONDO
Carmel Valley Route $ 95.00
Tandem - Carmel Valley Route (2 participants) $ 190.00 per team


Oh well, I guess the separate registration for tandems is a start.

Other organized rides often give the tandem team a discount from 2x the single registration. Examples include the Tour de Palm Springs (http://www.active.com/cycling/palm-springs-ca/14th-annual-tour-de-palm-springs-charity-bicycle-ride-2012), and the Solvang Century (http://www.active.com/cycling/solvang-ca/30th-solvang-century-metric-and-1-2-century-2012).

There can't be a discount if there is no tandem-specific registration. I think the way to approach this is to contact ride organizers to see if they will agree that tandem specific registration is a good idea. Once they agree to set that up, then suggest a tandem-team discount.

I understand exactly what you are talking about. We have ridden a couple of local rides and I only registered as a single rider but bought an extra meal ticket. We do not participate in the food at the rest stops when we do that, we carry our own GU and only fill our water bottles at those stops. I feel a little tug at my conscience but as long as I abstain from the food at the food stops my conscience is clear.

We have ridden a couple of rides where we did register as a tandem and payed the full fee. The Tulsa Tough is one that I remember.

Tandem activism, I love it!!
Seriously though, we rode on a tandem specific club ride yesterday (single bikes were also allowed) When getting a pre ride head count, the tandem people counted bikes, the non tandemers counted heads. That said a lot.
Keep it up, Ritterview :thumb:

+1. Even a token price break is appreciated.

We were in the Sea Otter last year and it was an amazing ride well worth the money for us as the Gran Fondos in Canada have been doing their best to keep us out. We actually had to threaten one of them with a discrimination claim(my wife is disabled due to a spinal injury) to be allowed to ride. We did three Gran Fondos in the States last year; San Diego, Sea Otter and Seattle. All with different organizers and all welcomed us with open arms which was so refreshing after our problems in Canada.

So keep up the fight but appreciate what you have.

Craig and Claudia

ps Anyone thinking of Sea Otter this year make sure your rig has a granny gear we used our 30 x 34 to pass many 2 x 10 singles(who were walking) on the last major climb.

We never felt a discount is expected, since both of us are enjoying everything the organizing group did to make our ride enjoyable. We have always felt it is a rider fee, not a bike fee that we are paying for And that us on a tandem, we are not participating in the event any less than if we were on our singles. As for Charity rides, getting a break on fund raising would be nice, since we have to collect $300 - $500 to participate on the tandem. But that is just our thoughts....

ps Anyone thinking of Sea Otter this year make sure your rig has a granny gear we used our 30 x 34 to pass many 2 x 10 singles(who were walking) on the last major climb.

Is this the 96 mile route (http://app.strava.com/rides/436793), and is the last major climb of which you speak Laureles Grade (2.1 miles, 7.1%) (http://app.strava.com/segments/609350) or York-Boundary Road (1.2 mile, 7.9%) (http://app.strava.com/segments/644880)?

Yes 96 mile.

Laurels grade(??), but I think that the average may be 7.1 but it felt like 1% at the bottom and 15% at the top.

Yes 96 mile.

Laurels grade(??), but I think that the average may be 7.1 but it felt like 1% at the bottom and 15% at the top.

The steepest it appears to get on the Strava segment is 13.7% briefly, which is seen approximately here (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Laureles+Grade,&hl=en&ll=36.523364,-121.756346&spn=0.018968,0.040898&sll=36.523363,-121.756346&sspn=0.001192,0.002556&oq=Laureles+Grade&hq=Laureles+Grade,&hnear=Carmel,+Monterey,+California&t=m&z=15&layer=c&cbll=36.523364,-121.756346&panoid=3ykEwVYde6Y_ovEbb3Nxkw&cbp=12,43.69,,0,10.3).

I think that was where I wanted to get off and walk but my wife would not let me.

She is a slave driver.

Some events have offered tandem discounts.
One event gave us one number to wear, which is fine with us!
If you don't ask, you don't get!!!
Pedal on TWOgether!
RUdy and Kay/zonatandem

We enjoy tandem starts just before the main start. Handling a tandem at very low speed with some unskilled single riders weaving around in front of you while having trouble clipping in is not fun. Especially difficult are large rides with over 10,000 riders that have starts that involve walking speeds that come to stop at intervals.

I can understand no tandem discount since two riders get two goodie bags use facilities and but any price break is appreciated.

Wayne

As someone who has helped organize rides (Hekaton, Cinderella, Wildflower, Lighthouse, etc) and who has ridden many organized rides with my beloved stoker (on the tandem and on our singles) I have a hard time figuring out why an organization might offer such a discount. Their costs are no different than for two riders on singles.

Willing to listen to good arguments otherwise.

Discount-seekers need to put themselves in the shoes of the seller: how does the organization running the ride benefit from letting two participants eat their food and fill up their portable toilets etc. for less than the budgeted price? Merely saying, "Tandems are cool so I deserve a discount," doesn't really cut it. They are but you don't.

"Why should I give you a discount?" isn't fighting words; it's just an invitation for some information about you as a customer that will benefit me (and you if I give you a discount), which I hadn't thought of when I set my asking price.

If the event is so undersold that large fixed costs aren't close to being met by full-retail registration, then I could see how trying to attract the tandem segment of the market with a discount could make financial sense. But the list of reasons is long for not wanting tandems on a mass ride -- very likely some event organizers have brainstormed about applying a surcharge to tandem registrants! So I'm with the GranFondo folks on this one. Find another battle.

As someone who has helped organize rides (Hekaton, Cinderella, Wildflower, Lighthouse, etc) and who has ridden many organized rides with my beloved stoker (on the tandem and on our singles) I have a hard time figuring out why an organization might offer such a discount. Their costs are no different than for two riders on singles.

Willing to listen to good arguments otherwise.
Totally off-topic here, but one of the first centuries I ever rode was the Hekaton, and my now-twenty-one-year-old son "rode" the Cinderella. That is, my wife was three months pregnant when she rode it with some friends. Those were great rides.

I do agree that the costs associated with a tandem are pretty much the same as for two singles. I would never allow the presence or lak of a tandem discount to influence my decision to ride; I either want to do the ride or I don't. However, who doesn't love finding a tandem to draft? We're kind of like rolling sag wagons that help folks finish. That should have some small value.

As someone who has helped organize rides (Hekaton, Cinderella, Wildflower, Lighthouse, etc) and who has ridden many organized rides with my beloved stoker (on the tandem and on our singles) I have a hard time figuring out why an organization might offer such a discount. Their costs are no different than for two riders on singles.

Willing to listen to good arguments otherwise.

I'll see if I can come up with any.

The price for an organized ride is not a simple thing. Different factors go into account, involving both supply and demand.

Organizer Costs:

Registration costs are less if two people register as one.
Automobile parking and traffic is halved, as two riders share one car.
Promotion cost/rider is halved, as for each tandem team reached, two riders participate.
Food costs are reduced, as each tandem team will be 50% female, whereas ridership is otherwise upwards of 80% male. Therefore, eat-like-bird females ride in place of swarm-of-locust males. And since there must be some truth to that oft-heard knee-slapper "She's not pedaling!" the stokers caloric requirements are reduced proportionate to the reputed feebleness of her expended wattage.


Bicycle-limited rides
Many rides are limited to the number of riders that may participate (eg Wildflower). What often is cited for such limitations is the capacity of the roads to handle the vehicular traffic of so many bicycles. Each tandem that participates eliminates one bicycle. Tandems could thus be used to expand ridership within a bicycle limitation.


Demand-limited rides
Those rides not limited by a quota are limited by rider demand. The organizer sets the price not only to cover expenses, many of which are fixed, but so too to encourage greater ridership and revenue. The price has been optimized, therefore, to best entice the >95% of riders who will be singles.

The tandem team must make a similar decision to the single rider, but upon clicking on the Register Here link, the team sees a registration fee is 2x the solo rider's. But neither the means nor cycling ardor of a tandem team is twice that of a solo rider.

The rider and revenue maximizing price for tandem team's is somewhere between the 1-2x the solo rider's.

So, there are factors, from a cost, logistical and revenue maximization standpoint by which a rational ride organizer would provide tandem registration fees less than twice that of single fees.

As someone who has helped organize rides (Hekaton, Cinderella, Wildflower, Lighthouse, etc) and who has ridden many organized rides with my beloved stoker (on the tandem and on our singles) I have a hard time figuring out why an organization might offer such a discount. Their costs are no different than for two riders on singles.

Willing to listen to good arguments otherwise.

Tandems make good publicity. It is not usual to have our picture taken and used in local newspapers that cover the ride. Once the photographer went to the trouble to give us a prop and carefully compose the shot. Have never had that happen on a single.

Wayne

Wayne

In this house we kind of don't get worked up over it.

If we like the event and can afford it (direct cost of the event and indirect cost of travel, hotel, time off from work) we sign up.

Sometimes the wife does complain about cost, since she does eat very little, and often the food they have is not part of what she eats. So yes, other than some water and a bathroom stop, she is along for the ride.

Tandem rallies are different than a ride event. These have the fun of meeting other tandem teams and cool things that tandem teams do.

We go to have fun and sometimes that comes with a price.

Now if you want to talk about racing, a tandem is a rip off at twice the cost. Most times that is just greedy promoters.

PK

As someone who has helped organize rides (Hekaton, Cinderella, Wildflower, Lighthouse, etc) and who has ridden many organized rides with my beloved stoker (on the tandem and on our singles) I have a hard time figuring out why an organization might offer such a discount. Their costs are no different than for two riders on singles.

Willing to listen to good arguments otherwise.

From my point of view the biggest cost differences occur in support, headaches, and bad press. There are typically two groups that almost ALWAYS have their tools and spares, and that's the A group riders and tandem teams. Tandem teams, (such as ours), will often have extra spares to help out a rider, and even carry repair parts for stuff they're not riding! For instance we always carry a couple of 8 and 10 speed masterlinks even though our drive train is nine speed. Why not?

Although I have seen a tandem or two sagged in due to a major mechanicals like a broken wheel, you never see them sagging in cause they started off with bald tires, rusty chains, loose crank arms and all the other common nonsense the bottom 50% of the singles show up with. And you almost never see them calling it quits because they bit off more than they could chew and can't make the ride.

Next, in addition to the support, the A groups and tandems often blow right by the sag stops; "A" groups because they think it's a race, and tandem teams because many carry all their OWN fuel and hydration needs for that length of ride. We personally never rely on a sag stop. We will stop at some of them for bathroom breaks, and we might even eat a little something while we're stopped if it appears edible, but we always have adequate food & water on board.

And lastly, (knocking on wood as I'm saying this), in 40 years of cycling I have never seen a tandem team leaving the ride in an ambulance. Not saying they don't, can't or haven't crashed, it's just that on the organized rides with precious cargo on the back, tandem pilots are typically more experienced and tend to be more cautious than the average single rider.

And it's the pictures on the news of a pile of bloody cyclists on the side of the road with cops and ambulances everywhere that ultimately gets these rides cancelled.

So, I vote yes, tandems should get a discount.

I'll see if I can come up with any.

The price for an organized ride is not a simple thing. Different factors go into account, involving both supply and demand.

Organizer Costs:

Registration costs are less if two people register as one.
Automobile parking and traffic is halved, as two riders share one car.
Promotion cost/rider is halved, as for each tandem team reached, two riders participate.
Food costs are reduced, as each tandem team will be 50% female, whereas ridership is otherwise upwards of 80% male. Therefore, eat-like-bird females ride in place of swarm-of-locust males. And since there must be some truth to that oft-heard knee-slapper "She's not pedaling!" the stokers caloric requirements are reduced proportionate to the reputed feebleness of her expended wattage.



Registration costs (regardless of whether manual data or automated data entry are used) are essentially the same for a tandem vs. two riders on singles.
Similarly, if beloved stoker and I decide to ride our singles, we don't take two cars, so no savings there.
Same for promotion costs.
Same for food costs (actually beloved stoker may eat as much as I do on these rides, since I have to be careful about what I am eating on long rides. Result = lots of bananas = cheap for promotors)


Bicycle-limited rides
Many rides are limited to the number of riders that may participate (eg Wildflower). What often is cited for such limitations is the capacity of the roads to handle the vehicular traffic of so many bicycles. Each tandem that participates eliminates one bicycle. Tandems could thus be used to expand ridership within a bicycle limitation.

Rider limitations are usually restrained by county permit limits. County officials would be amused to hear the argument of expanding a ride limit based on the addition of tandems. Savvy officials might counter that tandems also impose additional traffic loadings since they are slower on hills and their speed characteristics are different than singles (highway traffic w/o big trucks would flow better).


Demand-limited rides
Those rides not limited by a quota are limited by rider demand. The organizer sets the price not only to cover expenses, many of which are fixed, but so too to encourage greater ridership and revenue. The price has been optimized, therefore, to best entice the >95% of riders who will be singles.

The tandem team must make a similar decision to the single rider, but upon clicking on the Register Here link, the team sees a registration fee is 2x the solo rider's. But neither the means nor cycling ardor of a tandem team is twice that of a solo rider.

The rider and revenue maximizing price for tandem team's is somewhere between the 1-2x the solo rider's.

I'll just say that's an odd argument from someone riding a Calfee.

Nothing personal, but I'm underwhelmed and unpersuaded.

Our thoughts:

1. The tandem is a bicycle/ 1 bicycle.
2. 2 wheels
3. All costs for the promoter are the same for single/tandem except for food and drink
A. Insurance
B. promotion costs
C. Maps
D. Course set up / gas, time, paint etc.

We think that a tandem fee should be 1 1/2 the single bike fee or simply charge for the meal/ food drinks.

Since we are retired we can ride the event the day after and just follow the route markings. We ride fully supported, water, food, tools and sometimes prefer not to ride with some of the squirrelly single tourists.

Just our thoughts and we do not care if you are convinced or persuaded. LOL

Wayne (in Illinois)

We do a lot of organized rides and while a tandem discount is nice we don't mind paying full price particularly if we believe in the charity or want to support the success of the promoting bike club or organization. If our paying a few extra dollars in full price helps insure that a good events comes back again next year then all the better. Some rides (Lighthouse for example) are so good and such a value already I would feel uncomfortable asking for a price break.
If we dislike the promoter or feel the pricing is excessive we find another ride. The good news is we are fortunate to have many to choose from here on the west coast.
Bill J

Setting aside the question of allocating the fixed costs (by "wheel" or "body"), the only rationale I can see with some potential validity is the ability of the organizer to increase their revenue ever to slightly if their permit limits the number of bicycles. So, I don't mind a small discount, don't necessarily expect one for riding a tandem. How about a senior citizen discount as we don't eat as much (right).

You are correct, riding a tandem with my wife is more expensive then riding my single with the guys.
She likes to stay in stay in a hotel the night before a ride instead of leaving the house at 3 or 4am to get to a distant ride.
She likes to go out to dinner the night before the ride.
She thinks it's civilized to stay in town the night after a ride, get a warm shower, another evening meal and then breakfast before heading home the next morning.
She thinks it is a good idea to stop for lunch during training rides.
She is tired after training rides and would prefer dinner out to cooking in after training rides.
She thinks it is a good idea to take the tandem on vacations with us so we stay in shape for organized rides.
She approves of the purchase of a vehicle large enough to haul the tandem.
She understand how various upgrades have improved the riding experience.
She has approved the purchase of 3 tandems in 4 years.
She understands why I had to buy a 2 new singles during the same 4 years.

You think saving 15 bucks on a ride registration is going to make a difference? Griping about a few dollars in registration fees is not going to endear ride organizers to a demographic that clearly has the ability to pay.

BTW, I did not ride sea otter last year (in spite of being comped on entry fees) because I was so disappointed* in the previous year’s bad support.
Having ridden the sea otter 3 times on a single, I would gladly pay an extra $15.00 if my wife can get me up the last hill.
*PC for pissed off…. bad course markings put us in the middle of a road race heading the wrong direction, food at rest stop very limited and seemd to be stuff they picked up a costco the night before.

Registration costs (regardless of whether manual data or automated data entry are used) are essentially the same for a tandem vs. two riders on singles.
Similarly, if beloved stoker and I decide to ride our singles, we don't take two cars, so no savings there.
Same for promotion costs.
Same for food costs (actually beloved stoker may eat as much as I do on these rides, since I have to be careful about what I am eating on long rides. Result = lots of bananas = cheap for promotors)

You assert that the costs are essentially the same "for a tandem vs. two riders on singles".

It is closer to the truth, as DubT points out, that the only difference in variable cost between a tandem team and a single rider is the food consumed by the stoker. Can you point out any other variable costs?

The ridership of century rides (e.g. the Sea Otter Gran Fondo) is predominantly male. Those women who would ride as a stoker are unlikely to do so on a single. The absented stoker will be substituted by a solo male, with an additional variable-cost laden registration, car, bicycle and appetite.


Rider limitations are usually restrained by county permit limits. County officials would be amused to hear the argument of expanding a ride limit based on the addition of tandems. Savvy officials might counter that tandems also impose additional traffic loadings since they are slower on hills and their speed characteristics are different than singles (highway traffic w/o big trucks would flow better).

The county probably doesn't have rider limitations, but vehicle (bicycle) limitations. The county officials will never hear the argument. The ride will fit in extra riders within their bicycle limitation by having more riders as stokers on tandems.


I'll just say that's an odd argument from someone riding a Calfee. Nothing personal...

None of these factors are the least bit affected by whether we ride our Calfee or our 1991 Burley.

I was initially, intuitively, disappointed that the organized rides we participate in did not offer a tandem discount. I have seen tandems in events with only one rider wearing a bib number. We once pre-registered for a pricey ride and only paid for one rider, me, the captain. By the day of the event, however, we had reflected more on the matter, felt badly and registered my wife at the event. If there are economic / logistical benefits to the organizers for a tandem vs. two singles, the savings can only be minor and would seem to be insignificant. Adding another class of registrant could be an inconvenience, although probably minor. On the other hand, we like to support the organizations that put-on these events and the charities that may benefit from them.

By the way for the organized rides we did last year, the organizer would not have benefitted from reduced parking (although we rode together, there was adequate free parking), reduced food intake (although I weigh more that 1.5 times my stoker shes eats as much as I do), promotion cost would not have been effected - it was a fixed outlay irrespective of the number of riders so promo cost per rider is irrelevant, and we did not require use of sag facilities. Since the rides did not provide for tandem registration adding it would have presumably incurred a cost, at least to set up the website to handle it. In the case of the organized rides we did last year, it would have been a minor money losing proposition for the organizer to provide separate tandem registration - even more so at a discount.

I agree with those who would rather put their energy into righting other "wrongs".

The ridership of century rides (e.g. the Sea Otter Gran Fondo) is predominantly male. Those women who would ride as a stoker are unlikely to do so on a single. The absented stoker will be substituted by a solo male, with an additional variable-cost laden registration, car, bicycle and appetite.

Sounds like you are building an argument for charging women less to register, not tandems.



The county probably doesn't have rider limitations, but vehicle (bicycle) limitations. The county officials will never hear the argument. The ride will fit in extra riders within their bicycle limitation by having more riders as stokers on tandems.

I sense I'm conversing with someone who has never negotiated a permit with a county.

Actually, when I think about, we wll be receiving a bit of a "discount" for riding a tandem this year. we are registered to ride in the STP Seattle to Portland ride. We will return to Seattle on the train but will send our bike back on the truck. We will only have to pay for transportation for one bike and they do not charge a premium for tandems, even though they take up more space.

Similarly for the RSVP Ride from Seattle to Vancouver and Party. We will only pay transportation for one bike back to Seattle. Also we are staying a couple of extra days in Vancouver before returning on the train and will only pay additional days storage for one bike.

I guess you can't really call it a discount , but the cost will be less for us as tandem riders than for two singles.

Sounds like you are building an argument for charging women less to register, not tandems.

Ah, that is only because you've ignored my challenge to specify what variable expenses, other than victuals, that a tandem team has above that of a single rider.

The female argument is secondary.


I sense I'm conversing with someone who has never negotiated a permit with a county.

Actually I have, not with a county per se, but that is another story.

If I were negotiating with a county about a limitation, and I had potential tandem registrations, I would see if I couldn't specify bicycles on the application rather than cyclists. I rather doubt that savvy officals are all that common in county offices, and these would consider bicycles equivalent to cyclists, and not ever think of tandems.

Getting an unforeseen discount is always a nice surprise even absent rationale, but considering the amount of volunteer effort that goes into these large rides we should all be grateful that we can share in the experience. If a newly organized ride is seen as having great appeal for tandems I can see a discount in the early years to attract more tandems, but the amount of discount that an organizer can afford really won't be much of an attraction. And think how PO'ed singles would be if the tandem and singles registration fees were the same;). I feel like we get quite a bit for our registration fee and in the context of the overall expense (ref: Chichi's post) a $15 savings doesn't make much of a dent.

I saw this post, and decided not to comment at first. But since it seems to have become more of a poll, I guess I'll jump in with the "2x fees are okay" crowd. Bill J summed up my thoughts that a ride fee is for the preparations towards the enjoyment of each individual, regardless of how many bikes they're riding. Also, as chichi and rdtompki mention, after all the expenses of my wife and I making a weekend out of a big ride, a $15 or $20 discount would be a nice gesture, but not notable financially. Lastly, my stoker is a pack-rat, and we end up finishing the ride with more food than we start with, so the idea of a woman not eating so much definitely doesn't work with us. (Drives me nuts to drag around her 2 lbs of banana + apple, energy drink, etc. that she grabs from those snack tables!)

"... while a tandem discount is nice we don't mind paying full price particularly if we believe in the charity or want to support the success of the promoting bike club or organization. If our paying a few extra dollars in full price helps insure that a good events comes back again next year then all the better. Some rides (Lighthouse for example) are so good and such a value already I would feel uncomfortable asking for a price break.
If we dislike the promoter or feel the pricing is excessive we find another ride. The good news is we are fortunate to have many to choose from here on the west coast. "
Bill J

I'm disappointed to miss rides because I can't find it reasonable to ride the tandem for rides on which I used to go on my single. I don't mind $15-$20 registrations. Those would never be a problem, but I also like the $100 registration rides, and paying $200 and up for a day's fun on the tandem seems totally weird to me, when we can have at least as much fun for free. So we just don't do those rides. The only reason we would ever ride those on a tandem is to get the matching jerseys, almost impossible to obtain in any other way, but that makes it a $350 ride. Normally, the only use we make of organized ride facilities is to take water from the hose and later deposit it in a Sanican. Since these expensive rides only cost a fraction of the fees collected to put on, a great deal of the fee money goes for lobbying. Which needs to be done, but I'd rather make direct contributions to those organizations and politicians I want to influence.

I guess that's just a penalty for wanting to ride with one's wife. Typical. If part B doesn't make more money than part A, part B doesn't get made, no matter the benefit to society or the community. And of course we all know the evil of having one group in society subsidize another. That's unquestioned.

We choose to spend our tandem cycling money on consumables: tires, tubes, rims, chains, rings, cassettes, pads, and lube. One of those rides costs us as much as consumables to last us a year. So we'll be members of the biking clubs and organizations, and get by with $35 on-sale jerseys that almost match, though we do have one $150 matching pair for special occasions. Luckily, black shorts are the best.

I don't mind $15-$20 registrations. Those would never be a problem, but I also like the $100 registration rides, and paying $200 and up for a day's fun on the tandem seems totally weird to me, when we can have at least as much fun for free. So we just don't do those rides.

There are several posts on this thread that make light of the meager amounts supposedly involved here, but I don't consider the $190 tandem team registration fee of the Sea Otter Gran Fondo any laughing matter. Nor the $240 for the Death Ride, for that matter. A few hundred here and then there, and eventually for the season you are talking about real money.

At Solvang, the tandems get a break, the singles are $75, the tandems $130 (http://www.active.com/cycling/solvang-ca/30th-solvang-century-metric-and-1-2-century-2012). So that is 14% for the team, or 27% for the additional stoker team member. Apply that to the Sea Otter, and the $190 becomes a more palatable $163. Anyone that thinks $27 a contemptible triviality, PM, and I will provide my email address for PayPal.

OT, while looking at the Solvang site (http://www.bikescor.com/solvang/), there is this pic, which shows a tandem team at the Santana booth, getting the pitch from Bill McCready.

http://www.bikescor.com/solvang/images/century-rider4.jpg

Ah, that is only because you've ignored my challenge to specify what variable expenses, other than victuals, that a tandem team has above that of a single rider.
.

1. Insurance

2. Medical services

3. Port a Potty

4. Time spent processing the entry

5. Goody bag, patches water bottles

6. Crowd control ( or information dispensing ) personnel

7. More riders create a need for larger and more expensive venues



Maybe we should be volunteering to pay more so that ride organizers will encourage more people to ride tandems. Which in turn would further tandem technology and competition amongst manufacturers resulting in a lower delivered cost for tandem related goods and services, good luck!

The organized rides down here in New Zealand typically give you a "goody bag" upon registration which will include a few dollars worth of sponsors products (leppins, energy bars, advertising brochures etc). A tandem entry will get one for each rider. You get one timing tag for the bike and one race number. There is also just the one entry for any spot prizes. There isn't usually food available on the rides. Sometimes there will be water stops provided that may have some energy drink as well.
Personally I think that charging twice the single rider entry fee is not justified, but that is what they usually do (or close to it).
Only the biggest rides have a separate starting group for tandems and it is rare to have any prizes for winning the tandem division.

I just spent a few minutes perusing century rides in Cycle California. It looks like most club organized centuries are around $50.00 per person and the money goes to a good cause.

Promoter organized rides are in the $90.00 to $150.00 per person. I find these rides generally to be inferior to club organised rides as they are done to make a buck as opposed to putting a club or community in a good light. If you want to ride the highly promoted stuff you gotta pay the price.

BTW IMHO $240.00 for the death ride is a good deal 2 state highways closed for 6 hours so you can go for a bike ride, yahoo!

1. Insurance

2. Medical services

3. Port a Potty

4. Time spent processing the entry

5. Goody bag, patches water bottles

6. Crowd control ( or information dispensing ) personnel

7. More riders create a need for larger and more expensive venues





Hmmm... these all seem legit, and go against my argument. I choose to ignore them!







BTW IMHO $240.00 for the death ride is a good deal 2 state highways closed for 6 hours so you can go for a bike ride, yahoo!

Yes, with the Death Ride, the cost is, to use the Hollywood phrase, all on the screen. And it has separate tandem registration, which is nice. They have no shortage of people wanting to participate, and thus tandems are never likely to see a discount.

I missed the registration in January,:( but there is another chance March 14th (http://www.deathride.com/registration.html). I wonder if the Death Ride likes tandems, and might be encouraged to leave tandem slots open?

There are several posts on this thread that make light of the meager amounts supposedly involved here, but I don't consider the $190 tandem team registration fee of the Sea Otter Gran Fondo any laughing matter. Nor the $240 for the Death Ride, for that matter. A few hundred here and then there, and eventually for the season you are talking about real money.

At Solvang, the tandems get a break, the singles are $75, the tandems $130 (http://www.active.com/cycling/solvang-ca/30th-solvang-century-metric-and-1-2-century-2012). So that is 14% for the team, or 27% for the additional stoker team member. Apply that to the Sea Otter, and the $190 becomes a more palatable $163. Anyone that thinks $27 a contemptible triviality, PM, and I will provide my email address for PayPal.

OT, while looking at the Solvang site (http://www.bikescor.com/solvang/), there is this pic, which shows a tandem team at the Santana booth, getting the pitch from Bill McCready.

http://www.bikescor.com/solvang/images/century-rider4.jpg

I think when posters refer to the "meager amount", in your terms, they are not referring to the total cost of the registrations, but rather the cost savings vs two singles. Even in your example, which has a savings higher than perhaps any other event, the savings is $20. Others have pointed out that $20 doesn't seem like a whole lot of $ to be concerned about relative to others costs that tandem owners experience.

Perhaps your post suggests that ala carte pricing would be more fair. A charge for a rider, a charge for a bike, food sold at rest stops, a fee for toilet use, a fee for parking, sag support for time and materials charges, etc. Thus costs are paid proportionally based on how much resource each rider consumes. Obviously a major hassle to administer.

Your proposed discount for tandem riders makes assumptions that may not be true. A single vehicle for transport, less food consumed by what is assumed to be a female stoker (I have seen two males on a tandem and two females at events). Should the two riders who arrive in a single vehicle and consume only food they carry request a discount vs. two riders who arrive separately and make liberal use of food stops? Should they only request it if the food was not donated by a sponsor?

We rode ride together on our singles before getting our first tandem. I suppose that is what puts me in the no discount required camp. If the ride is a good deal for me then it is also for my stoker. There are a few rides that we decide against due to the high fees or fund raising requirement.

Wayne

I think when posters refer to the "meager amount", in your terms, they are not referring to the total cost of the registrations, but rather the cost savings vs two singles. Even in your example, which has a savings higher than perhaps any other event, the savings is $20. Others have pointed out that $20 doesn't seem like a whole lot of $ to be concerned about relative to others costs that tandem owners experience.

$20 must be worth something, as no one has yet PayPal'd me even that supposed pittance. If it is so inconsequential a sum, neither will the event organizers miss it. So, even the $20 matters. There may be other costs, such as the hotel. Fine. But who doesn't frown when getting the hotel bill, and finding the $130 per night is $150, with tacked on "water resource", "occupancy tax," "energy fee", etc. Who is happy to pay the $25 luggage fee on the airline? If taking all into account the rational, proper, optimum cost for a tandem registration should be $130, but we are being charged $150, then the $20 extra is a tandem ignorance tax that our hobby would be better without.

The original post is about an event with a $95 single fee, which is $190 for tandems. I don't think even the most profligate of enthusiasts blithely pays a $190 tandem registration fee without inquiring into whether it is a fair value.


Perhaps your post suggests that ala carte pricing would be more fair.

Perhaps it doesn't. Your projecting that I am suggesting ala carte pricing is an excellent example of a straw man argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man), however.


Your proposed discount for tandem riders makes assumptions that may not be true. A single vehicle for transport, less food consumed by what is assumed to be a female stoker (I have seen two males on a tandem and two females at events).

Prices are set to reflect the average not the outlier. A tandem team could be two bulimic males arriving in two different monster trucks, sure. But on average, tandem teams will be within a few percent of 50:50 male:female, and 100 tandem participants will arrive in not more than 55 cars, whereas 100 singles must require >75 cars. The price will reflect the aggregate.


Should the two riders who arrive in a single vehicle and consume only food they carry request a discount vs. two riders who arrive separately and make liberal use of food stops? Should they only request it if the food was not donated by a sponsor?

These examples are but tendentious distractions.

$20 must be worth something, as no one has yet PayPal'd me even that supposed pittance. If it is so inconsequential a sum, neither will the event organizers miss it. So, even the $20 matters. There may be other costs, such as the hotel. Fine. But who doesn't frown when getting the hotel bill, and finding the $130 per night is $150, with tacked on "water resource", "occupancy tax," "energy fee", etc. Who is happy to pay the $25 luggage fee on the airline? If taking all into account the rational, proper, optimum cost for a tandem registration should be $130, but we are being charged $150, then the $20 extra is a tandem ignorance tax that our hobby would be better without.

The original post is about an event with a $95 single fee, which is $190 for tandems. I don't think even the most profligate of enthusiasts blithely pays a $190 tandem registration fee without inquiring into whether it is a fair value.



Perhaps it doesn't. Your projecting that I am suggesting ala carte pricing is an excellent example of a straw man argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man), however.



Prices are set to reflect the average not the outlier. A tandem team could be two bulimic males arriving in two different monster trucks, sure. But on average, tandem teams will be within a few percent of 50:50 male:female, and 100 tandem participants will arrive in not more than 55 cars, whereas 100 singles must require >75 cars. The price will reflect the aggregate.



These examples are but tendentious distractions.

Sorry if I distracted you with examples of others who may similarly argue that they are “paying an ignorance tax”.

As for straw man arguments – I never postulated that paying a hotel “occupancy tax”, “water resource tax” ‘airline luggage fee” was something people happily do.

And speaking of outliers – your use of the $20 tandem discount at Solvang is an outlier. Tandem discounts are rare and the market suggests that organizers have little or no incentive to offer one. Do you believe that the organizers of this ride save $20 in costs when two riders ride a tandem instead of 2 singles?

...Perhaps your post suggests that ala carte pricing would be more fair. A charge for a rider, a charge for a bike, food sold at rest stops, a fee for toilet use, a fee for parking, sag support for time and materials charges, etc. Thus costs are paid proportionally based on how much resource each rider consumes. Obviously a major hassle to administer.

...Should the two riders who arrive in a single vehicle and consume only food they carry request a discount vs. two riders who arrive separately and make liberal use of food stops? Should they only request it if the food was not donated by a sponsor?

When I read this I was reminded of Jack Ludwig's short story, "Requiem for Bibul," set during the Depression in what was then the Jewish ghetto in the notorious north end of Winnipeg. Bibul is a fruit and vegetable merchant who buys the bruised and over-ripe leavings from posher markets and sells them from his horse-cart to the poor residents of his neighbourhood. Quoting Michael Greenstein, "...Bibul rides out with his horse Malkeh to challenge his female customers, those abusive, haggling, thieving schnorrers."...always demanding discounts on his "spoiled spoils." (Ludwig's words)

We actually do have a ride here in Ontario, the 2-day Rideau Lakes Cycle Tour, that is pretty much à la carte. Your registration gives you dinner, room, and breakfast at the university dorm at the turnaround in Kingston and transport of a small suitcase there and back. Food is sold at rest stops, there is a beer tent Saturday afternoon and à la carte burgers in Ottawa on return. Club volunteers help with roadside repairs but charge for parts. If you don't need any support at all en route and can find your own way with just a cue sheet (tandems take note!) there is even a special route just for us: no support, no signs, no sweep, forage for food and water or bring your own. It's always a bit of a shock to be riding almost alone all day and then unite with the other 2000 cyclists pouring into Kingston on the Classic Route. Ottawa Bicycle Club has been running this ride for 40 years so they must be doing something right. Toilets are free. On the no-support route there was one Porto-let sitting in isolated solitary splendor near an abandoned railway station.

$20 must be worth something, as no one has yet PayPal'd me even that supposed pittance.

It is and it isn't. It's worth enough that I wouldn't part with it unless I felt you used your time in some way for me to have an enjoyable organized ride.

It's also not worth much, in that you couldn't pay me $20 to stand around on a nice Saturday when I would in fact rather be riding. In that sense, I'm thankful for all the volunteer time to organize a ride and work during the day of the ride. (Laying out a course, working with the local community, painting arrows on the road, printing cue sheets, working the food tables, designing and screen-printing jerseys or t-shirts, etc.)

We only do a couple of organized rides a year because of the expense, so I'm not saying that cheaper prices wouldn't be welcome.

When I read this I was reminded of Jack Ludwig's short story, "Requiem for Bibul," set during the Depression in what was then the Jewish ghetto in the notorious north end of Winnipeg. Bibul is a fruit and vegetable merchant who buys the bruised and over-ripe leavings from posher markets and sells them from his horse-cart to the poor residents of his neighbourhood. Quoting Michael Greenstein, "...Bibul rides out with his horse Malkeh to challenge his female customers, those abusive, haggling, thieving schnorrers."...always demanding discounts on his "spoiled spoils." (Ludwig's words)

We actually do have a ride here in Ontario, the 2-day Rideau Lakes Cycle Tour, that is pretty much à la carte. Your registration gives you dinner, room, and breakfast at the university dorm at the turnaround in Kingston and transport of a small suitcase there and back. Food is sold at rest stops, there is a beer tent Saturday afternoon and à la carte burgers in Ottawa on return. Club volunteers help with roadside repairs but charge for parts. If you don't need any support at all en route and can find your own way with just a cue sheet (tandems take note!) there is even a special route just for us: no support, no signs, no sweep, forage for food and water or bring your own. It's always a bit of a shock to be riding almost alone all day and then unite with the other 2000 cyclists pouring into Kingston on the Classic Route. Ottawa Bicycle Club has been running this ride for 40 years so they must be doing something right. Toilets are free. On the no-support route there was one Porto-let sitting in isolated solitary splendor near an abandoned railway station.The foraging route sounds very cool.

Those of you who enjoy riding routes with other bikes on them, but don't enjoy the expense of boutique rides, might look into randonneuring. This sport involves riding the same route, at the same time as a number of other bikes, but relatively unsupported. There will be people to help if things really go wrong, which is what worries one when one is way the heck out in the country somewhere, but basically each bike is on their own. Ride lengths start at 100k and go up . . . and up. There are memberships and fees, but it's really cheap considering what you get, especially if you figure it per hour! The people involved in this sport are invariably very nice and supportive. It does cost twice as much for a tandem as for a single, but the costs are totally reasonable and obvious per person costs. Most well populated areas have a randonneuring club somewhere. You can search for a list of US clubs by state here: http://www.rusa.org/cgi-bin/clubsearch_GF.pl

Good advice Carbonfiberboy.

As for Ritterview’s original proposal that we all contact ride organizers to request tandem registration categories and follow up by asking for tandem team discounts, I decline as I remain unconvinced that it is justified. However, this is a matter for debate and I encourage all who feel that we are subjected to a “tandem ignorance tax” to join the fight.

You think this is aggravating for tandems.....try it with a quad when two of the riders are under 10 years old! They dang sure aren't eating their "share" of the food/drink (for that matter, neither do my wife and I). For our local event, El Tour de Tucson, the tab for us to enter was over $400. Any of the other events in these parts are a minimum of $65/rider.

Some have made the argument that the promoter gets publicity from tandems....they get way more publicity from quad's. Our photo found it's way into local print media many, many times, the local newspaper did an article about our participation, and the promoter even used our photo on one of the posters for a future event. Personally, I think we should have received a first place award for the "Quad" category, seeing as how the tandem's had their own awards!! Didn't happen though.

I haven't decided how I'm going to handle this now that we have a triplet and will be doing these events again with our youngest. Maybe two entries (adult) and ignore the little guy....