Clydesdales/Athenas (200+ lb / 91+ kg) - Anyone else feel totally unstable on skinny tires?

My hybrid, I feel like I could ride over anything and it doesn't matter. Branches, railroad tracks, dirt, rocks, small cars. No problem. 700x35.

My Caad 10 5 on the other hand... scares the hell out of me going downhill at 30mph on just asphalt. 700x23

I hit a little gravel too and put me in a nasty wobble I was (thankfully) able to recover from. Seems like every little rock and pebble is out to kill me.

I never stand on this bike to pedal.

Now, I feel like I reach to far on the bike and need a somewhat shorter stem. - but doesn't a shorter stem make the front wheel -more- twitchy?

No, my road bikes all feel stable as hell. Even the twitchy ones.

Having said that, a CAAD 10 is a full on race-geometry bike and it's supposed to be "responsive" and to you, that may be uncomfortable. No road bike is going to enjoy gravel or sand, that's for sure. If the fit is wrong with the stem you have, I'd get it fixed. Stability won't be affected as much as your comfort.

Another suggestion you might want to consider is hawking your CAAD10 on ebay or CL and getting a frame that's set up more for "comfort" like a Giant Defy, Cannondale Synapse, Specialized Roubaix or one of those configurations. See if you can find a shop to let you test ride some and determine whether geometry is part of your issue.

I suspect it's normal for adults to feel leery of the skinny tires especially when used to looking at and riding 35c wide wheels.

You will get used to them and at the same time avoid (if you possibly can) gravel, sand, debris as they are not designed for that purpose. To put it another way, running out of pavement and hitting loose dirt, gravel or sand will likely not end well.

See if you can borrow a shorter stem from your LBS and try it out for a few days to see if it helps. I don't think changing out the stem will make it more twitchy, at least I have never found that to be the case?

My hybrid, I feel like I could ride over anything and it doesn't matter. Branches, railroad tracks, dirt, rocks, small cars. No problem. 700x35.

My Caad 10 5 on the other hand... scares the hell out of me going downhill at 30mph on just asphalt. 700x23

I hit a little gravel too and put me in a nasty wobble I was (thankfully) able to recover from. Seems like every little rock and pebble is out to kill me.

I never stand on this bike to pedal.

Now, I feel like I reach to far on the bike and need a somewhat shorter stem. - but doesn't a shorter stem make the front wheel -more- twitchy?

Skinny road bike tires have never been a favorite with me either. I much prefer fat tires like those on a Cruiser or MTB for comfort and safety.

I think my bike has 700c 28. I haven't felt nervous at all but I'm not a speed demon by any means. I think I hit 23-24 mph tops going down a small hill. I'm also a huge rider (390).

I have another set of tires and rims that i was going to try, those are 700c x 23 and I wonder how I will feel on those.

TrojanHorse is close to the mark. I purchased a bike with aggressive geometry and on the first real ride, I was going down a hill and when I hit about 33 mph, the front wheel started wobbling violently. A new experience, and figuring that I was going down for sure, I started looking at the road cut embankment thinking I would do less damage to my body if I went sideways into it. Thankfully, I was able to regain control and rode the brakes, keeping the bike at 25mph to the bottom of the hill. Funny thing is that at the bottom of the hill, you make a left turn and have a nice 7-mile run at about a 1-2% down grade with the wind pushing you. Not steep enough to freewheel, but you can get good speed with the wind assist. I was able to ride at plus/minus 35mph along that stretch and the bike exhibited no inclination to become unstable again.

Tried riding several more times and even though there was no "death wobble", the bike felt unstable on descents. On flats, it is fantastic ... very responsive. You only have to think about moving, and the bike takes off like a jack rabbit. I finally stripped the bike and moved the Dura-Ace components to a new frame, putting the offending frame in the spare bedroom to languish. The new bike is just as fast, based on GPS tracks, even though it doesn't feel like it is. The new bike feels very stable also.

Fast forward six months and I built up that "racing" frame with Ultegra components. Same problem. No wobble, but gives a very unstable feeling on descents. Even tried 25mm tires, which helped stability on my other bike. Those made it feel a little bit more stable, but still unsettling on descents. It's sad too because that bike really likes to climb. Only problem is that I have to get back down the hill after climbing it.

It's sitting in the bedroom again, sans wheels. I asked a LBS guy about it and he speculated that it is a bike best suited for guys who don't weigh as much as I do. I'm at 207 right now and am working on getting to my ideal, (in my mind), of 185 by mid-summer. I'll try the bike again when I loose a few.

p.s. For me anyway, stem length has no effect on responsiveness/twitchiness. I had a pro fit on the bike too. It may be my "riding style", or my weight, or the bike's geometry, or who knows what.

fwiw, I did consider the synapse, (and similar felt) but 61cm wasn't big enough for me. The Caad10 had a 63 so, there I went.

I'm not riding IN sand or gravel, just the road garbage on the side of the road, or what comes up on the MUPs.

Now I know why all the roadies ride to the left of the bike lane, I think.

Even on my road bike, I have wider tires. I run gatroskins on both mtn bike commuter and road bike.

I had a bike with a replacement front fork. It had little trail to it at all and was quite twitchy. You couldn't ride it no handed. It had road tires, but that wasn't why it was twitchy.

See if you can borrow a shorter stem from your LBS and try it out for a few days to see if it helps. I don't think changing out the stem will make it more twitchy, at least I have never found that to be the case?

I think the worry is that with a shorter stem small changes in the angle of the bars will result in a larger movement of the front wheel. FWIW, I haven't found that a 10-20mm change in stem length makes much of a difference in the way steering feels.

Took me a while to find it but this article may shed some light on your shimmy problem. I didn't realize your frame was as large as it is but check out the article and see what you think:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/06/bikes-and-tech/technical-faq/technical-faq-with-lennard-zinn-why-tall-bikes-often-handle-poorly_121162

Lennard Zinn is quite well known for his unorthodox opinions on large frame design.

I'm the exact opposite I guess. Put me on 23's/25's and racing down GMR's switch backs are no biggie at 30 mph. Put me on an MTB with fat knobbie tires and it sucks. Low pressure, wide area seems to shift side to side, they are not meant for road riding. Narrow track road tires are like riding on rails. ;)



I did shorten the stem on my Cannondale. Took about 2 rides before I forgot I made the swap. No problems on fast 40+ downhills. But as far as race bikes, I think geo and model has much to do with stability on downhills. My Lemond Chambery was great on the downhill. This new Madone is not quite as stable. Both race bikes but the Lemond was more relaxed.

I think Trojanhorse pretty much hit the nail on the head. A Caad 10 is a bike that many racers love to use as it is light, fast, stiff, and very responsive. It isn't horribly expensive, so if it gets crashed, it's less expensive to replace than some of the others. What racers see as being responsive, more casual riders might view as "twitchy". Something with a more relaxed geometry might be just the thing.

What racers see as being responsive, more casual riders might view as "twitchy". Something with a more relaxed geometry might be just the thing.

Don't know how long the OP has been riding his bike, but I know that when I got back on my race bike after a 10-year lay-off I thought it was almost too twitchy to ride! A couple of weeks in the saddle, however, and I got used to the "responsive" handling again. That said, my bike felt equally stable (or unstable) regardless of speed. Not clear to me if the OP is just having problems at high-speed or if the bike is generally unstable...

Did you take the bike to the bike shop to make sure everything is tightened properly in the steering? Did you get fitted properly on the bike? I mean really fitted by someone who knew what he/she was doing and not someone who just looked at you and said "looks great." You didn't say what your current stem length was? Unless you go too short, I've had better handling with shorter stems than longer ones. I ride a full race geometry bike and have been 70+mph on it with no problems at all. You do want to make sure you have a relaxed grip of the bars. A death grip can cause the shimmies.

I think if I were going 70 on my bike I'd have a death grip on everything that could grip anything, and maybe a few other things too.

I hit 40 all the time but 70 ... phew!

I don't think there's a stem made that can affect twitchiness anywhere close to how much it's affected by fork trail.

That's a very interesting article.

I'm getting a fit done tomorrow... I have the seat/pedals perfect, but I just can't get the handlebars right on my own.

It has a: Cannondale C3, 31.8mm, 6 deg. I think that is 120mm.

I don't think there's a stem made that can affect twitchiness anywhere close to how much it's affected by fork trail.
I don't think there is an argument there but it really makes no sense to think about spending several hundred bucks on an aftermarket fork without really knowing how it will affect the bikes handling. The bike was designed to handle properly with the fork it has on there. It'd be just as easy to make the handling worse.

For me, drop bars are why I can't ride a road bike at speed. 50mph on a mountain bike (with 26x2.1" knobbies) was fine. 40mph on a Specialized Allez Triple with 23c Michelin Krylion carbon tires, and everything adjusted and in tune was scary. Switch to a Sirrus with flat bars and 28c tires, and I can still ride faster but I feel much more comfortable at speed. Whipping 90 degrees onto a side street is also much easier for me on the Sirrus, it just hugs the road, while the Allez felt very skiddish under me in comparison. I attribute it to flat bars. I also won't use bar ends at speed or for sharp cornering, hands have to be on the flats.

I think my Hybrid handles much more surefooted with the 26C's I put on in place of the 35C's.

OK, Allez is the aluminum version of a Tarmac... same "responsive" geometry we're talking about here - the Tarmac is specialized's full zoot race bike. No wonder it feels more flighty!

I guess I'm the opposite - when I'm on a hill > 30 mph descending, I'm in the drops 100% of the time. Better grasp of the brakes, if necessary, and I really do think it's more secure & stable regardless of the bike.

I don't think there is an argument there but it really makes no sense to think about spending several hundred bucks on an aftermarket fork without really knowing how it will affect the bikes handling. The bike was designed to handle properly with the fork it has on there. It'd be just as easy to make the handling worse.

The CAAD 10 is designed to handle like a race bike with the OEM fork. Handling impacts of fork geometry changes are fairly well understood. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rake_and_trail)

If you want more stability, a fork with more trail is one way to make it happen...

I don't think there is an argument there but it really makes no sense to think about spending several hundred bucks on an aftermarket fork without really knowing how it will affect the bikes handling. The bike was designed to handle properly with the fork it has on there. It'd be just as easy to make the handling worse.

Oh, no, I would never suggest that anyone new to road riding should expend the effort and cash to swap forks. My point was just that fork trail (in concert with the head tube angle) is probably the main factor, and changing stems will have an almost unnoticable effect on the problem.

All very interesting. I have about 100 miles on the bike. It's very intermittent though, because it keeps having mechanical problems. Maybe I'll get it back this week and put another 100 miles on it and see where I'm at.

I wonder if I should flip my stem? I never feel quite right on the hoods. Even though I'm pretty bent over, it makes me feel really high on the bike. - drops way more comfortable.

I wonder if I should flip my stem? I never feel quite right on the hoods. Even though I'm pretty bent over, it makes me feel really high on the bike. - drops way more comfortable.

Are your arms straight, or do you bend your elbows?

My arms a little bent on the hoods - not very much.

The_DK, The higher air pressure that a 23 mm tire uses vs. the air pressure a 35 mm tires uses is the reason the 23 mm tire reacts more to road irregularities. The low trail measurement and short wheelbase of a road racing bike combine to make a responsive bike, both to rider and road. Your bike shouldn't be considered unstable IMHO.

Weight bias has more effect with a short wheelbase. It is possible that a shorter stem could help move a little weight aft as well as make you more comfortable. A shorter stem reduces the arc of the handle bar swing. When that arc is too small (overly sensitive steering) is subjective so make small changes. A handle bar with less reach is also an option. Also if you're more comfortable on the bike the easier it will be to deal with it's responsive nature.

Why do you not stand to pedal on this bike?

All this reminds me that I need to take out my crit bike to blow out some carbon.

Brad

I don't stand because it feels like the bike is going to go out from under me - like I'm trying to use a pogo stick on a frozen lake covered in grease.

Of course, I'm used to just jamming hard as I want on my heavy trek hybrid. Maybe I just need to learn finesse.

My arms a little bent on the hoods - not very much.

Besides a stem or handle bar change, moving the levers upwards on the handle bar could help. I feel the hoods should accomodate the most natural (neutral?) feeling arm extension.

Brad

I think many have stated that it's more than likely the bikes geometry that is making you feel unstable. I ride a Specialized Secteur, basically an aluminium Roubaix, with 700x23 tires and never had a wobble at high speeds.

One thing you can try, when you are descending and the bike starts to wobble is placing your knee against the top tube, this is supposed to stabilize a twitchy bike.

I do prefer my Fat Tires in general. But like Beanz states, they aren't made to go 30+ on pavement. But I do 30+ on some dirt roads and the FS and fat tires never fail me. At 225 I like the security I feel on Fat Tires, I know its mental, but I have more confidence.

I agree with the suggestion of it being the bike's geometry. I feel perfectly stable on my road bike. That being said, I tend to prefer tires that have at least some tread to them, rather than slicks. Makes me a little more comfortable to know they have at least some bite for real world conditions.

The CAAD 10 is designed to handle like a race bike with the OEM fork. Handling impacts of fork geometry changes are fairly well understood. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rake_and_trail)

If you want more stability, a fork with more trail is one way to make it happen...

They are fairly well understood by people who know what they are doing but it's not as simple as just throwing another fork on there. The geometry of the whole bike is linked together. The frame was designed with that particular fork in mind (or visa-versa). That bike has short chainstays and steeper seat tubes. If you just throw a fork with more trail on a frame designed for less trail you could end up with some funky handling characteristics. You have to look at the handling and geometry of the bike as a whole not pieces. Throwing hundreds of $ at a problem without knowing for sure that it’s going to work doesn’t sound like the best idea to me.

All very interesting. I have about 100 miles on the bike. It's very intermittent though, because it keeps having mechanical problems. Maybe I'll get it back this week and put another 100 miles on it and see where I'm at.

I wonder if I should flip my stem? I never feel quite right on the hoods. Even though I'm pretty bent over, it makes me feel really high on the bike. - drops way more comfortable.

This (the first paragraph) says you need to spend more time in the saddle. Chance are you'll get used to the bike's handling.

If the drops are more comfortable than the hoods, try flipping your stem, changing it from 6 degrees to -6 deg. If you don't like it, you can always put it back. Also, short stems can make a bike more or less stable; it isn't the stem so much as the way it (helps) distribute the rider's weight. See if LBS has one for you to borrow or trade.

I went from a 35 to a 28 on the same bike and the only thing
I noticed was the need to watch cracks in the pavement a bit
closer. At a given spot at a given speed I see no difference.

I have two very similar bikes, one with 35's, one with
28's and on the same route, the 28's are about two
mph faster.

I don't stand because it feels like the bike is going to go out from under me - like I'm trying to use a pogo stick on a frozen lake covered in grease.

Of course, I'm used to just jamming hard as I want on my heavy trek hybrid. Maybe I just need to learn finesse.

Get yourself some rollers! You'll learn finesse. ;) I think you just need more time on the bike. It's still real new to you. After your fitting give it some time before you start really messing with things that cost money.

Thanks guys, glad to hear it's mostly just me. That's the least expensive part to improve.

Thanks guys, glad to hear it's mostly just me. That's the least expensive part to improve.



What really hurt me early on in cycling was not knowing how to stand. One rider told me to lean over the bars and dig in while standing. I could never do it comfortably or efficiently.

Later on I learned that you don't lean over the bars, or stand to increase speed. Use it to maintain speed on climbs, not increase. Chest upright which puts you in a position that simulates jogging. Once I tried this method it made a world of difference in conserving energy while standing, more efficient and great for stretching on long rides.

If you ever watch Lance on a TDF climb, he stands pretty upright, like a jog, not much leaning over the bars.

I don't know about sprinters and standing techniques but I rarely stand to sprint, I just feel like I am torturing my bikes.:D

One thought.....did you get a full fitting when you bought your bike or did they just make sure the seatpost was about right? And by full fitting I means they put you on a trainier have you pedal and look at everything, seat position, crank, knee, stem etc. These are normally a charge.

it is possible that beyond just getting comfortable on a race bike that getting the fit dialed in will help

a quick google of bicycle fitting

http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/fitting.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAl_5e7bIHk

http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bc/SBCWideGlobalPages.jsp?pageName=BGFIT&menuItemId=11504ww.specialized.com

Thanks guys, glad to hear it's mostly just me. That's the least expensive part to improve.

My first ride on a road bike ( I had been riding a Trek Navigator with a spring fork and spring loaded seat post) I was with a group and when the guy in front of me pointed out a bit of rough pavement I ignored him because I ran over stuff like that all the time on the Navigator. That little rough pavement shoved the seat up to my rib cage :eek: and you can bet the next time something was pointed out I went around it. 3 years and 15,000 miles later it's a funny memory:lol: But it takes some time to get used to skinny tires and road bikes

I got my basic fit done and upgraded seats as well. Got my seat put higher and more forward. I feel a lot more comfortable on the bike, and standing up like jogging to stand up feels 10x more stable. Still have to get used to it!

Yeah, you'll get used to it. Whenever I ride a wide-bar bike now, such as the Cannondale Bad Boy I used to own, it feels like I'm steering a dump truck compared to my BMC road bike (it's race-ready, but I hesitate to call it a "race bike" since I have no plans to race it :p).

"Twitchy" is the same quality as "responsive", and the only difference is the rider's perception and whether they like it or not. :thumb: