Classic & Vintage - Can someone explain to me how this scam would work?

So I am selling a DeRosa Primato locally on Craigslist and I am familiar with the standard scam responses. So I received what I was sure was a bogus "I'm interested" email and it was followed up by this email....

"Thanks for the prompt response.. I am ready to buy it now as a gift
for my Son,I am at sea at the moment as i am a marine engineer and due
to the nature of my Job.....phone calls making and visiting of website
are restricted but i squeezed out time to check this advert and send
you an email regarding it. I really want it to be a surprise for my
son i wont let him know anything about it until it gets delivered to
him, i am sure he will be more than happy with it. I insisted on
paypal because i don't have access to my bank account online as i
don't have internet banking, but i can pay from my paypal account, as
i have my bank a/c attached to it,Get back to me with your paypal
email and the price so i can proceed with the payment quickly or you
sign-up for a paypal personal account www.paypal.com it is very fast
and easy to set up. I have a pick up agent that will come and pick it
up after i have made the payments."

So my question is how would this scam work? If all I do is give him my PayPal address, would he be able to get access to my bank account somehow or is he just going to manipulate the payment he makes so that later on it's not covered and he is counting on me releasing the bike before the funds have cleared. With PayPal can a money sender void a payment after it's made in a similar fashion to how an individual can dispute a credit card charge? Thanks for any info!

Well...it's definitely a scam, the question is how and what. A few things come to mind...

1. he's selling email addresses.
2. Your next email goes something like "there's a problem, can we use checks"
3. He has other people's CC's he's using to make payment.
4. He's using a hacked paypal account.
5. He cancels payment after it's picked up. Paypal won't protect you from a canceled cc transaction.
6. your next email contains a virus of some sort and he wants to get you to open an attachment.
7. During the transaction he tells you to give him your paypal account information.

My guess is options 1, 2, 6, or 7...this is a mass email that probably goes out all over the country. If the target is the Primato, he's stuck reselling and picking up a stolen Primato. It has to be some sort of electronic scam...so my guess is 6 or 7.

Well...it's definitely a scam, the question is how and what. A few things come to mind...

1. he's selling email addresses.
2. Your next email goes something like "there's a problem, can we use checks"
3. He has other people's CC's he's using to make payment.
4. He's using a hacked paypal account.
5. He cancels payment after it's picked up. Paypal won't protect you from a canceled cc transaction.
6. your next email contains a virus of some sort and he wants to get you to open an attachment.

Yes to all of these.

Simple policy for me when I sell.

Checks or USPS money orders for friends/known bicycle community members.

Everyone else = cash.

Seems to work just fine.

This just brings to mind the question: Which is the lesser of two evils, Craigslist or eBay? That is a weird request from that dude atmo. I feel sort of sorry for those that may be gullible or naive and fall for these types of scams.

This just brings to mind the question: Which is the lesser of two evils, Craigslist or eBay? That is a weird request from that dude atmo. I feel sort of sorry for those that may be gullible or naive and fall for these types of scams.

I have decided against selling on ebay.

CL seems to work ok for me for less expensive items.

Word of mouth works best. :)

BTW If it is the blue Primato on CL, it is gorgeous.

Toss it up on the forums, as it shouldn't take long at that price or condition.

Any email that includes the phrase, "an agent" or "my agent" immediately gets deleted.

Or the word advert. It's very easy to tell a scam email from a real one. I've written to people selling on CL in other areas and they've never thought I was a scam artist. First rule...if you're sending an email to a foreign area, INCLUDE YOUR PHONE NUMBER and make a lot of reference to the specific item being sold. Emails like the one above are general, and they have to be.

Electronic scams are a numbers game...you hit a million people and if .1% of them are REALLY stupid, that's 1000 people sending you money. All it takes is 100 per dumb person and you clear $100,000. That's one of the downside to the communication hive...it used to be that crazy people were more isolated. With the internet, crazy and dumb people find one another and build communities far more easily. Just look at us!

I'm not sure you should even bother to reply. Or tell him since he has a pick up agent, to send said agent with cash only. I agree, it's off.

I've stopped taking emails on CL sales, as a very large percentage of the emails I get appear to be nothing more than fishing expeditions. Phone and text only. I don't respond to texts that ask me to go to a website.

Like Gomango, I don't sell on the bay any longer. I don't like to ship. I do swaps and local CL. Local CL is far better for low end stuff as a rule. Anything good will just sit at a realistic price. You may be playing a waiting game.

BTW, "advert" is a British/UK usage. Something's a bit fishy, marine engineer or no.

I'm not sure you should even bother to reply. Or tell him since he has a pick up agent, to send said agent with cash only. I agree, it's off.

I've stopped taking emails on CL sales, as a very large percentage of the emails I get appear to be nothing more than fishing expeditions. Phone and text only. I don't respond to texts that ask me to go to a website.

Like Gomango, I don't sell on the bay any longer. I don't like to ship. I do swaps and local CL. Local CL is far better for low end stuff as a rule. Anything good will just sit at a realistic price. You may be playing a waiting game.

BTW, "advert" is a British/UK usage. Something's a bit fishy, marine engineer or no.

Exactly...as is his use of agent. Other phrasing, while understandable, is the King's English idiom and less likely to be used by a US writer. It's someone who was taught English as a second language...and that's typically the King's English. These emails have evolved since the Nigerian prince days, but they're still off to even the most marginally lucid reader.

BTW, I've seen your bike up on RVA CL. At that price, and at this time of year, it's just going to sit on the Richmond list. The high end does not move. You will get occasional tire kickers, but they'll likely want substantial (read:ridiculous) reductions in price. This is from my experience with a Merckx Leader, amoung others. You may try going North, and listing up in DC, for better results. Since you're already going a bit afield on this one.

I think Pogue is right...it's not an unreasonable amount, but it's ambitious for CL. I'd list it on Serotta forums personally. If that didn't work, I'd suck it up with eBay.

I think Pogue is right...it's not an unreasonable amount, but it's ambitious for CL. I'd list it on Serotta forums personally. If that didn't work, I'd suck it up with eBay.

Yeah, the serotta forums might just work on this one. You can list it here, but I think we're more low dollar. No offence, anyone (looks as funny as advert, doesn't it?).

It isn't an unreasonable amount, but it is unrealistic for RVA CL, which I know reasonably well. You're more likely to sell a boat anchor Huffy for 150$ than a Serotta for 300$ on that list. Worth a shot, though.

Can't speak for the Hampton Roads one, which is closer to you, I think.

This just brings to mind the question: Which is the lesser of two evils, Craigslist or eBay?
Don't get me started.....but you asked.

CL is local, but the scams generally come from non-local.
I ignore them, and most CL listers say "cash only" to ward off those.
The hassles on CL are "some people." "Some people" always are. No biggie.

eBay is a buyer-protected venue that began as a wide-ranging classified ad system.
eBay/PayPal, well, it's a very regulated system to operate in, heavily in favor of the buyer.

I had a box of parts to sell. 3/4 of it, I sold here, in 2 days, with a good return.
The buyers got very nice items at very good prices, quick shipping, etc. I paid PayPal their 3%

I sold 5 other items, small ones, on eBay. 3 to Australia, 2 to the US.
I "free shipped" to the US, Flat Rated 3 FD's to Australia.
eBay and PayPal, combined commission was 12%, applicable to both the price and shipping.

Because I didn't pay the extra tracking fee (raising eBay and PayPal's commission),
I had to wait on feedback on the US items. 1 week after receiving positive feedback, I got my money.

The Australia items have been delivered, apparently (can't track into Oz without very high costs).
The buyers have all left positive feedback. It's now been 10 days since they left feedback.
eBay is still witholding payment. I'm sure I'll get it sooner or later.
I've received no scam notices on the eBay stuff I've sold for about 2 years now.
Apparently, eBay's protective measures in that regard are working.

With eBay, the hassles are the "system," but it's what it is.
PayPal/eBay's system will protect the buyer, even a fraudelent one,
so if you have suspicions, simply ignore that buyer.

I worked on some Nigerian fraud activity for a while in Raleigh, NC.
It is organized, trained, equipped and financed. Often it uses "King's English."
Simply ignore it or use "cash only" in any response to emails.

With the internet, crazy and dumb people find one another and build communities far more easily. Just look at us!

We resemble that remark! :P

Don't get me started.....but you asked.

CL is local, but the scams generally come from non-local.
I ignore them, and most CL listers say "cash only" to ward off those.
The hassles on CL are "some people." "Some people" always are. No biggie.

eBay is a buyer-protected venue that began as a wide-ranging classified ad system.
eBay/PayPal, well, it's a very regulated system to operate in, heavily in favor of the buyer.

I had a box of parts to sell. 3/4 of it, I sold here, in 2 days, with a good return.
The buyers got very nice items at very good prices, quick shipping, etc. I paid PayPal their 3%

I sold 5 other items, small ones, on eBay. 3 to Australia, 2 to the US.
I "free shipped" to the US, Flat Rated 3 FD's to Australia.
eBay and PayPal, combined commission was 12%, applicable to both the price and shipping.

Because I didn't pay the extra tracking fee (raising eBay and PayPal's commission),
I had to wait on feedback on the US items. 1 week after receiving positive feedback, I got my money.

The Australia items have been delivered, apparently (can't track into Oz without very high costs).
The buyers have all left positive feedback. It's now been 10 days since they left feedback.
eBay is still withholding payment. I'm sure I'll get it sooner or later.
I've received no scam notices on the eBay stuff I've sold for about 2 years now.
Apparently, eBay's protective measures in that regard are working.

With eBay, the hassles are the "system," but it's what it is.
PayPal/eBay's system will protect the buyer, even a fraudulent one,
so if you have suspicions, simply ignore that buyer.

I worked on some Nigerian fraud activity for a while in Raleigh, NC.
It is organized, trained, equipped and financed. Often it uses "King's English."
Simply ignore it or use "cash only" in any response to emails.

Robbie, my question was really rhetorical, but I do appreciate your well reasoned response on the question nonetheless. I've never sold on eBay, but I'm guessing eventually I'll break down and put stuff up there.

One of my favourite websites is 419 Eater (http://www.419eater.com/index.php), which has some of the funniest bait scamming I've seen atmo.

..... Or tell him since he has a pick up agent, to send said agent with cash only. ......

This would be my response.

BTW, I've seen your bike up on RVA CL. At that price, and at this time of year, it's just going to sit on the Richmond list. The high end does not move. You will get occasional tire kickers, but they'll likely want substantial (read:ridiculous) reductions in price. This is from my experience with a Merckx Leader, amoung others. You may try going North, and listing up in DC, for better results. Since you're already going a bit afield on this one.

Response noted and I agree. It's up on northern Virginia Craigslist (DC area) which is where I generally get some interest. I have had some luck in Richmond in the past, and if you think Richmond is light on responses, you wouldn't believe how poor the Hampton Roads market is for road bikes. Absolutely the worst. Also I am flexible on price and this is a great deal for someone who has an interest in owning a legendary frame with incredible ride characteristics at a below average price for this model. Thanks for the advice, and if CL fails, eBay will beckon. I've never done anything but get frustrated with advertising on forums and I've offered some really nice bikes at what I thought were fair prices but I've never had any luck selling. I sold the bike below in three days on Washington DC CL to a guy in California after getting no response here other than some nice compliments on the appearance. No hard feelings and no offense. There is a place for everything, I guess, and selling high end bikes is not a forum thing. I know a lot of you guys do well, but I just haven't had any success. Anyway thanks for all the responses. I'm an IT administrator and there's a voice inside telling me I should set up a sting and try to coerce this guy into something where I could make him a little nervous. But I'll probably just let it go. Thanks for all the responses.

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5274/5909689431_b30512ed23_b.jpg

I've never done anything but get frustrated with advertising on forums and I've offered some really nice bikes at what I thought were fair prices but I've never had any luck selling. I sold the bike below in three days on Washington DC CL to a guy in California after getting no response here other than some nice compliments on the appearance. No hard feelings and no offense. There is a place for everything, I guess, and selling high end bikes is not a forum thing. I know a lot of you guys do well, but I just haven't had any success.

yeah I'd say the C&V Sales forum here leans towards vintage components. Frames priced over $300 don't seem to sell and ditto for completes over $500. i assume that's because the majority of folks here are more the yard sale, salvation army, craigslist hunter types looking for sweet deals on mid-level production bikes to renovate. totally different than the audience at Paceline/Serotta and Velocipede Salon where bikes in the $1000-$3000 range sell regularly.

like you said, it's about knowing your audience when selling.

Sweet bike, I will send my agent over with cash ;)

Sweet bike, I will send my agent over with cash ;)

Made me laugh!

it is not my size.....decision averted

This would be my response.

I have done this in one case the person did actually make arragements to have someone come pick up the bike and pay me in cash I was rather surprised.

He could be using the Paypal Seller Protection loophole for in-person transactions. He pays you with Paypal, some no-name guys picks it up, then he files an item not received case with Paypal. You have no tracking number or information from the no-name guy so you will lose the case.

On my CL ads, I tell buyers if they MUST use email, to add a sentence or 2 describing the object & color they are buying.

A bit of Googling reveals much about this particular one:

https://www.google.com/search?q=I+am+ready+to+buy+it+now+as+a+gift+for+my+Son%2CI+am+at+sea+at+the+moment+&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

https://www.paypal-community.com/t5/Fraud-phishing-and-spoof/more-oceanographer-scam/td-p/104606
https://www.paypal-community.com/t5/Fraud-phishing-and-spoof/selling-car-on-craigs-list-I-smell-a-RATwhata-u-think/td-p/66492
http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/gmail/thread?tid=0c4a767d45e17cb5&hl=en

Well, here is my response to his email.....

Thanks for your reply. I am ready to sell this bike to you but you will have to make arrangements for your pick up agent to deliver cash in the amount of $1400 US when he comes to pick up the bike. Then all is well and the bike is yours. By the way, I am also a marine engineer. What is your area of expertise?

I just sent this off. George Costanza is my hero!

Like Gomango, I don't sell on the bay any longer. I don't like to ship.

You can specify "Local Pickup Only"
You might get a better local audience than CL.

If the seller does reply (I doubt he will) and attempt to arrange a meeting via his agent, I suggest you propose meeting at 304 Albemarle Drive, Chesapeake, VA 23322. (http://www.cityofchesapeake.net/Government/City-Departments/Departments/Police-Department.htm)

This just brings to mind the question: Which is the lesser of two evils, Craigslist or eBay? That is a weird request from that dude atmo. I feel sort of sorry for those that may be gullible or naive and fall for these types of scams.
Advantages of Craigs List:

1. Its free (tough to beat free).

2. Transactions can and should be done in person.


Disadvantages:

1. Its full of scammers, somewhere between 10% and 20% of my responses are scammers.

2. If you have something higher end, it is hard/impossible to get full market out of it at least in my market.

3. Lots of flaky buyers and sellers. No feedback system to let you know about the buyer's or seller's reputation.

Ebay:

Advantages:

1. Tap into a world wide market.

2. Direct connection with paypal, so payment flows pretty well.

3. If you sell a relatively popular item, it will sell in seven days, and you will be done with the deal.

4. No meeting people at your home, or at some neutral location.

5. Built in feedback system (OK, it has plenty of flaws), and they track deadbeats (people who bid but don't pay), so you can screen out deadbeats.

Disadvantages:

1. Its the land of fees, lots of them.

2. If you ever get a dispute, ebay will bend over backwards to side with the buyer.


You decide. In my case, ebay has provided me a place to get prices on items that I could not get anywhere else. For this access, I will gladly pay a fee.

Back to how a scam might work, it looks like a possible derivative of a scam where you sell something for (say) $500 and before you know it a payment (usually a check/cheque) for $5000 turns up. The buyer says it's an admin error and to just go ahead and cash it, and send them the balance with the item. So you cash it, check it cleared and send the item along with $4500. Some time later the payment is revealed to be fraudulent and reversed. The buyer doesn't care about the item, he wants the $4500 - the item is a bonus if it's worth having.

I'd hazard a guess that if your man pays using a ripped off Paypal account, or using a ripped off credit card, you'll send the item and the transaction will be reversed. You can't beat cash, especially if your buyer meets you at your bank with the cash so you can deposit it right away and deny them the chance of paying you a visit that night to save you the trouble of taking the cash to the bank.

All this reading.

By now, I could have driven there, stole it, and driven back.

No one wants to work any more.

You decide. In my case, ebay has provided me a place to get prices on items that I could not get anywhere else. For this access, I will gladly pay a fee.

+1

I often start out using Craigslist but get impatient and move to eBay. Most of my stuff has been higher end and Craigslist is just not very good in my area for anything more than a few hundred dollars.