Tandem Cycling - Lightweight Tire Selection

Finally got the best of us. Were looking for suggestions. 700x28. Been running Michelin Pro Race since they came out. Road conditions have finally got the best of us. Been on the tandem since 1990 and experienced what all tandem owners fear the most. Rear tire failure (large cut/brand new tire) @ 50mph in a sweeping turn. Big crash, many injuries.

The best advice I have seen on tandem lightweights is here: http://www.precisiontandems.com/arttiresbymark.htm We are currently using GP4X with good results, but the previous ultra gatorskins worked well for us also.

Finally got the best of us. Were looking for suggestions. 700x28.

Been running Michelin Pro Race since they came out. Road conditions have finally got the best of us.

Been on the tandem since 1990 and experienced what all tandem owners fear the most. Rear tire failure (large cut/brand new tire) @ 50mph in a sweeping turn. Big crash, many injuries.

Michelin Pro Race aren't available in 28 mm, 25 mm is the largest (http://www.michelinbicycletire.com/michelinbicycle/index.cfm?event=pro4sc.viewl). Was the tire that failed a 25 mm ProRace3 (http://www.competitivecyclist.com/product-components/2011-michelin-pro-3-race-700x25-clincher-tire-5553.256.0.html)?

If you are to mention an equipment failure resulting in a crash, I think that a more detailed report would be much appreciated.

Best wishes for a speedy recovery for you and your stoker.

Interesting link. We've been using Conti GP 4 Seasons in 28mm (330 lb team/estimate). We've had few flats in the 8000 miles on the bike. I suspect the rear tire is good for 1500 miles or so, but I confess to not keeping track and may be more than 1500 miles. About 2000 miles ago we lowered pressure to 105psi/front and 110 psi/rear which improved the rear tire wear and has produced no negative effects. Our roads are not the best (whose are?) and I'm sure this contributes to less than stellar tire wear.

I've used the Ultra GatorSkin on a single, but hard to make a cross-over comparison. Rubber is getting expensive so I may look at a savings in the tire area especially as we ride more. Speed isn't important to us, but ride quality certainly is so I'll have to factor that in. We also have the option of going to wider tires; might be an interesting experiment.

We have been using Michelin Pro Race3 in 25mm. Looking for a 28mm tire. I would not call it equipment failure. A large slash in the tire resulting in a blow out in a high speed downhill rt. hand turn. Results are not pretty. Recovery will take months.

+1 on the Conti GP 4 Season. We are a 350 lb team and have had good luck with these tires. The only issue was a brand new tire rolling off the rim. It turned out to be a tire bead defect and Conti replaced it free of charge.

Previous to the 4 Season we used Conti Ultra Gatorskins. This is a good durable tire but we had repeated issues with the sidewall threads coming off the tire. I ride the Gatorskins on my single and have not had the same issues. I believe the thread issue was caused by a combination of sidewall flex from the extra loads on the tandem as compared to a single, and the sharp edge on the rims of our Rolf Prima wheels. We are now doing most of our riding on Velocity Deep V's and I have noticed the edge is not as sharp as on the Rolf but I like the 4 Seasons and will continue to use them.

+2 for Conti GP 4 Seasons from this sub-300 pound team.

A good balance of performance and durability, IMHO.

Sorry to hear about the crash. But if something cut through the tyre like that isn't it likely to of happened to any reasonably lightweight tyre?

We have been running 28mm ultra gatorskins on dyads for about 1200 miles and the wear is reasonable...will probably rotate tires soon. These tires seem to hold up pretty well to pot holes, etc. I have been very happy with them.
Bent, What kind of pressure are you running? Could you be low and getting excessive sidewall flex? We run 120 psi front and back. we weigh 180 up front and 135 on back. bike weighs 38#.
If you are in the market for gatorskins, be sure to check out Mel's site (tandemseast.com); he is offering a pair of gatorskins in 25 or 28 for $75. This is a deal!

We use Gran Bois 30 mm tires on the tandem. We are about 280 pounds, and the ride is exceptional. Very light and very smooth tires, but not so good for loaded touring. On our single bikes, we run 26 mm Gran Bois tires. Again, never ridden anything so comfortable. Good luck with recovery.
Joe

Been successfully using Maxxis Re-Fuse 700x25 folding tires (275 grams/120 PSI) on our tandem and single.
In 5,600 of miles of riding in 2011 got exactly ONE puncture.
Tires last a bit over 2,000 miles on rear of tandem and usually wear out before puncturing.
We ride mainly in the desert in AZ and also several months in northern Utah.
Roads are not the best, lotsa detritus!
Currently trying a Panaracer Pasela TG (210 gr/115PSI) on rear of tandem. Several hundred miles so far, no punctures.
However had to lower PSI from 115 to 110 as the ride proved to be harsher for stoker than on the Maxxis'.

Both brands are folding bead with Aramid (Kevlar) puncture resistant layer in tire.
The Pasela TG is available in 28mm with steel bead only.

Crashing is never fun; been there, done that.
Get well soon!

Pedal on!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

We use Schwalbe Ultremo ZX tires in the 700 X 25 size and buy them here: http://www.worldclasscycles.com/clincher_tires_only.htm

I see that he offers the ZX in the 700 X 28 size.

I have over 1800 miles on the set we have on the tandem now, the front looks like it will go another 1800 miles, i am hoping to get 2500 total miles on the rear.

Wayne

Bent, What kind of pressure are you running? Could you be low and getting excessive sidewall flex? We run 120 psi front and back. we weigh 180 up front and 135 on back. bike weighs 38#.

We run at 120 psi front and back too. I really think it has something to do with the sharp edge on the Rolf Prima wheels. The Velocity Deep Vs seem much less sharp. I think the sharp edges cut into the threads allowing them to begin unraveling. (Only my opinion/guess) I end up with threads wrapped around the stays, spokes, hubs, and cassette. Eventually I get a spot where the tire starts to bulge.

While I have had the occasional thread come off the tires on my single, it has never been bad enough that I worry about the integrity of the tire while riding. I know others are riding with these same tires on their tandems without problems. I would try them again, but I have been pleasantly surprised with the GP 4 Seasons.

We have been using Michelin Pro Race3 in 25mm. Looking for a 28mm tire. I would not call it equipment failure. A large slash in the tire resulting in a blow out in a high speed downhill rt. hand turn.

By equipment failure, I mean the large slash in the tire sidewall resulting in the blow out.

It is my impression from use of Pro Race tires, as well as what is reported on message boards (https://www.google.com/#q=michelin+%22pro+race%22+sidewall+blow&hl=en&source=lnms&ei=rQBQT_O8KKmqiQL01tW0Bg&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=1&ved=0CBAQ_AUoAA&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=2662c7bf2252b838&biw=799&bih=517), that the Pro Race tires are prone to cuts, are particularly weak on the sidewall, and yours is not the first relatively new Pro Race to have a sidewall blow out.

As you recover, you may want that tire investigated as to the source of the failure.

Not a sidewall blowout. Middle of the tread. Destroyed rear rim, ground through both sets of carbon bars after first grinding through 3 of my fingers, trashed rear der., rt brifter gone, ground through capt. ti speedplay, half the platform gone along with spindle. Haven't done a real inspection yet. Bikes shoved into the corner. Major rt. side damage to both capt & stoker. We will get through this. Lucky the tire didn't come off and wrap itself around the seat stays.

Bontrager Race Lite - Hard Case 28c

Reasonably light, tough as nails, nuff said.

Not a sidewall blowout. Middle of the tread. Destroyed rear rim, ground through both sets of carbon bars after first grinding through 3 of my fingers, trashed rear der., rt brifter gone, ground through capt. ti speedplay, half the platform gone along with spindle. Haven't done a real inspection yet. Bikes shoved into the corner. Major rt. side damage to both capt & stoker. We will get through this. Lucky the tire didn't come off and wrap itself around the seat stays.

I hope your recovery goes well.

Not a sidewall blowout. Middle of the tread. Destroyed rear rim.

I had a middle of the tread blowout (http://www.flickr.com/photos/vonkaenel/sets/72157624809327113/with/5084214736/) as well, as we were traversing an intersection at 20 mph (http://connect.garmin.com/activity/48807485). Was lucky to keep control. These was not a lightweight tire, however, but a 304 gram (http://www.flickr.com/photos/vonkaenel/5084214736/in/set-72157624809327113) 25 mm Specialized Roubaix (http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bc/SBCEqProduct.jsp?spid=64073). Roughly the equivalent of a Continental GP 4-Seasons.

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4148/4979766649_69f7c3cdba_z.jpg

I usually toss our ProRace tires due to cuts. For our dirty spring roads we'll be trying Conti GP 4season (28mm 260g folding $52 OutsideOutfitters/TreeFort) and Conti Gatorskin (32mm 380g wire $34 outsideOutfitters/TreeFort).

I hope you and your stokers recoveries go well.

Wow - this thread is scary.

About 4 years ago, we had a 28mm gatorskin with about 700 miles fail while sitting in our garage. The front tire split at the sidewall, immediately adjacent to the wire bead. This happened about 6 hrs after a sub-5 hr century that included 4000' of climbing and a 55+mph descent. The tire had been pumped to 115psi, and there were no signs of any other damage to the sidewall except for the split. Had we been riding when this happened, the tire likely would've been shredded, and it might have appeared that we hit something causing the sidewall failure.

I contacted Conti USA and they told us the following may have been contributing factors: the tires were actually 3+ years old (although we had purchased the tires about 6 months prior) and the wire bead tires had been folded/coiled by the retailer (this is NOT recommended by Conti) possibly stressing the bead. The tandem we had at the time only had rim brakes, and i also wondered if the sidewall/bead material had somehow been weakened by rim heat.

In any event, we wish the Mkane77g team a speedy and complete recovery!

I usually toss our ProRace tires due to cuts. For our dirty spring roads we'll be trying Conti GP 4season (28mm 260g folding $52 OutsideOutfitters/TreeFort) and Conti Gatorskin (32mm 380g wire $34 outsideOutfitters/TreeFort).

I hope you and your stokers recoveries go well.

I couldn't find the $52 on the 28mm Conti GP 4 seasons size, but ordered four tires and tubes from Wiggle for a total of $181. Unless I've completely misunderstood the price as a pair price that's an unbelievable value.

Thanks for the get wells. Ultimately fingers 3/4/5 will be fused on my right hand. Knuckles were ground down to nothing and lot's of bone loss, so fusion was the best option. Approx 60 stitches were removed this week. Got to work on grip strength. 15 stitches in rt. arm also. Wifes doing well also. Couple of broken bones in her rt. shoulder which is keeping her from swimming, something she's done 5 times a week her whole life. Roadrash just about healed. Were comming along just fine.

Hopefully this is an appropriate question but I was wondering about the cost for repairing the bike? Will your home owners insurance cover it? I just had a conversation about that subject with my agent and the bike is covered but my home owners deductible of $500 applies. I could have them write a schedule on the policy and reduce the deductible down to $50.

Will your stoker ride with you again once you are both recovered.

So sorry to hear about the accident and pray that you both recover physically and emotionally.

Wayne

Wow, glad you are both recovering. Hope you're able to get back on the bike again soon.

Not a sidewall blowout. Middle of the tread.

We had similar experience with a couple of older Bontrager tires over a decade ago. (This tire is no longer made and Bontrager has switched manufacturer's since then).

Bike didn't go down in either blowout, but after the second we switched to the Conti's and haven't looked back.

What pressure were you running, what wheels were you using, and what is your team weight?

Why do tandem teams insist on using 25-28c tires? If we divided the weight of the tires between the 2 people on the tandem, it would make for some incredibly light tires for a single bike.

I know the 25c or 28c tires feels much nicer for acceleration and so forth. I use 25 or 28c tires on my single bikes. Is it really worth the increased probability of catastrophic failure?

Not a sidewall blowout. Middle of the tread. Destroyed rear rim,.....

What to you think might have triggered the blow out? Hit something on the road? Possibly a dip that placed extra stress on the tire? Just unknown?

Wow - your injuries sound awful. I doubt that I would have the courage to get back on the bike after injuries like that.

I recently had a rim/tire failure on my (single) mountain bike. The bike was fairly old. Rim brakes. I switched to some higher pressure smooth tires for some road riding. I had just put the new tires on, pumped them up to near 80 PSI and BANG! the rear tire blew off. Fortunately I wasn't on the bike. Closer inspection revealed that the rim flange cracked and broke free of the rim along about a 12" length. Years of braking in dirty conditions had thinned the rim flange down and weakened it. It appears that the fracture started at the weld as a fatigue fracture. Once it started to fail, it became a catastrophic failure. I bought new wheels.

Our tandem has rim brakes. Though we don't ride the brakes and try to avoid braking at all, we do run the tires up to 110 psi. So, I will soon take some time to carefully inspect the rims to see if the braking surface has started to become concave. If so, new rims.

I don't like reading stories like yours. It makes me think "there but by the grace of God . . . ".

Heal well.

mkane - So sorry to hear about your accident, best wishes for your continued recovery. Like others, we ride Continental GP 4 Seasons and have been very happy. Our team is a little under 300 lbs total and we ride the 25mm tires frotn and rear at 120 psi.

Scary to hear how badly a tire blow-out can go! Wishing you a speedy recovery.

We bought our used '04 tandem with only a couple hundred miles on it, with original Bontrager Race Lite tires. Tread appeared great, but the rear only lasted 4 miles into our first ride before blowing out in a right turn that had a bump in the middle. The split was right near the bead, about 2" long. The new Ultra Gatorskins have been great, but reading the extent of your injuries and others' comments of older tires blowing out makes me think I should give my tires one more season before replacing, regardless of how much tread is left. (That would be 3 years of use, and I figure they may have been manufactured a year before I got them.)

I don't know if it helps or not, but after each ride, I let air out of each tire for a few seconds so the tires and rim sidewalls aren't under so much stress all week before the next ride. Part of this is because the Gatorskins are rated to 116psi max, and we ride them at 120psi. (By the way, the graph posted on page one suggests we ride them at 140psi, which seems way higher than needed.)

Why do tandem teams insist on using 25-28c tires? If we divided the weight of the tires between the 2 people on the tandem, it would make for some incredibly light tires for a single bike.

I know the 25c or 28c tires feels much nicer for acceleration and so forth. I use 25 or 28c tires on my single bikes. Is it really worth the increased probability of catastrophic failure?

I'm not sure if a 32c would fit in the rear of my tandem.

Okay, I wasn't expecting all of this based on the subject! It's a thread I will NOT let my stoker (daughter) read! I hope your healing goes as well as possible!

We've been running the Ultra Gatorskins (28) for a few years now and have been pleased with them. We're a sub-300 lb team. Flats have fortunately been minimal, and coincidentally, have mostly been from staples. On my single with the same tires, the bulk have been from steel belted radial wire shards on the rear. Those pesky things poke right through the kevlar.

Why do tandem teams insist on using 25-28c tires? If we divided the weight of the tires between the 2 people on the tandem, it would make for some incredibly light tires for a single bike.

I know the 25c or 28c tires feels much nicer for acceleration and so forth. I use 25 or 28c tires on my single bikes. Is it really worth the increased probability of catastrophic failure?

In order to have a meaningful discussion, it is necessary to know both your individual and team weight.

It sounds like mkane77g has more important concerns at the moment, but when they have the opportunity it would be very informative to hear more about whether road conditions or debris was involved, tire history and mileage, team weight and inflation pressures, etc.

It's disturbing that a such an experienced team could have this happen. I think there's a big difference between a flat-prone performance tire and one that randomly splits and fails. If this is strictly an event tire for lightweight racers, it should come with clear disclaimers about intended use, weight limits, etc. I also hope the manufacturer (and possibly CPSC) have a opportunity to hear about this so they can review the situation and issue a recall if needed.

I'd also be interested to hear more about Ritterview's experience with the split Specialized tire – from his pictures, it appeared that there was also damage to his carbon rim. My question is whether they struck some debris that caused tire and rim damage, or was the rim damage was caused by tire failure?

I also admire the mkane team's courage to ride again and wish them a quick recovery.

In order to have a meaningful discussion, it is necessary to know both your individual and team weight.

My weight is about 170-175lbs and our team weight is probably below 300lbs. The lightest team weight I am aware of is probably about 250lbs. The narrowest tires I have used on our tandem is probably the old Avocet 700x32 slicks which were around 30mm or the Schwalbe Marathon Slick and Racer which runs about 31.5mm on our rims.

My point is about risk management. If both members are racers and are familiar with the risks of using very light equipment to get that edge, fine. For many teams, the stoker is not as familiar with the consequences of possible risks like tire failure at speed. My wife, who is only rides with me, puts her trust in my judgement and equipment selection as not to put our rides and health at risk. I've taken us down a local hill at over 100 Kph when the conditions are ideal and everything is working perfectly. It's not something I would do under less than ideal conditions and even then rarely because the consequence of something going wrong are quite severe.

When I am riding my single, I've used, and still use, tires as narrow as 23c (Continental GP or similar) and I like to go fast down hills. I understand the risks and have crashed before. I once broken 4 spokes as a result a double flat coming off a pass on a (over)loaded touring bike in Switzerland many years ago before I understood that tires should be appropriate for the load.

Tires are designed for specific load ranges. Schwalbe provides the maximum recommended load for their non-racing tires. For example, Marathon Racers 700x30 are rated at 85Kg/tire which means a tandem using these tires should not exceed about 170Kg. There are safety margins build into the load ratings but the more the total weight exceed 170Kg (~375lbs) with this tire, the greater the risk of tire failure. That is simply engineering. See http://www.schwalbetires.com/bike_tires/road_tires/marathon_racer_429 for an example. Schwalbe does not consistently provide a load rating for their lighter tires which I wish they would.

I would love to see Continental and Michelin would provide the load rating for their tires. How can I judge which tires are (relatively) safe to use on a tandem otherwise? Anecdotal evidence is most useful when used in conjunction with the engineered limit for the tires.

To the OP, I hope you and your stoker recover fully. I apologize for the tangential comments.

My weight is about 170-175lbs and our team weight is probably below 300lbs. The lightest team weight I am aware of is probably about 250lbs. The narrowest tires I have used on our tandem is probably the old Avocet 700x32 slicks which were around 30mm or the Schwalbe Marathon Slick and Racer which runs about 31.5mm on our rims.

My point is about risk management. If both members are racers and are familiar with the risks of using very light equipment to get that edge, fine. For many teams, the stoker is not as familiar with the consequences of possible risks like tire failure at speed. My wife, who is only rides with me, puts her trust in my judgement and equipment selection as not to put our rides and health at risk. I've taken us down a local hill at over 100 Kph when the conditions are ideal and everything is working perfectly. It's not something I would do under less than ideal conditions and even then rarely because the consequence of something going wrong are quite severe.

When I am riding my single, I've used, and still use, tires as narrow as 23c (Continental GP or similar) and I like to go fast down hills. I understand the risks and have crashed before. I once broken 4 spokes as a result a double flat coming off a pass on a (over)loaded touring bike in Switzerland many years ago before I understood that tires should be appropriate for the load.

Tires are designed for specific load ranges. Schwalbe provides the maximum recommended load for their non-racing tires. For example, Marathon Racers 700x30 are rated at 85Kg/tire which means a tandem using these tires should not exceed about 170Kg. There are safety margins build into the load ratings but the more the total weight exceed 170Kg (~375lbs) with this tire, the greater the risk of tire failure. That is simply engineering. See http://www.schwalbetires.com/bike_tires/road_tires/marathon_racer_429 for an example. Schwalbe does not consistently provide a load rating for their lighter tires which I wish they would.

I would love to see Continental and Michelin would provide the load rating for their tires. How can I judge which tires are (relatively) safe to use on a tandem otherwise? Anecdotal evidence is most useful when used in conjunction with the engineered limit for the tires.

To the OP, I hope you and your stoker recover fully. I apologize for the tangential comments.

Everyone's risk acceptance is different. You choose your risk:benefit ratio from your personal data and experience. As you said, for those interested in using lighter tires, there sometimes isn't good info from the manufacturers pertaining to tandem use. You also mentioned that mfrs are often conservative. So, it's natural to wonder just how conservative. But knowing others' experience is helpful in choosing a light tire, so Mkane77g's post is much appreciated. I don't take his post so much as shock or anger that it happened, but more of a communication to everyone else interested in light tires that this particular tire had a problem on a tandem.

So sorry to hear of your accident. But glad it is no worse! May you both heal up well. I have always tried to hold on to the bars when I've gone down, feeling that is the best way to avoid injury. However, perhaps I'll have to change my mental programming to include moving my downside hand off the bar. We have, fortunately, never gone down on the tandem at speed.

We ride with a number of other tandems. Their tire choices fall into two classes: lightweight, and Marathon Plus. Marathon Plus are a very durable tire for sure. However, we have had a tandem team, running the Marathon Plus, go down right in front of us in wet conditions in which we, on Conti 4000S, felt perfectly safe. Plus we can easily out-coast, and over time, outrun teams running the Marathons. So those aren't our choices, or the choices of most teams with which we ride.

Among our fellow riders, the Michelin Pro3Race in 25c have developed a reputation for fragility and poor wear, though they do handle well. Schwalbe Ultremo ZX in 25c, 215g, were found to be very fast by one team, but wore down to the cord very quickly. They are also available in 28c. Conti Gatorskins have been found wanting in the rolling resistance and handling departments by some teams including ours. We have had singles riders in our group go down unusually easily in the wet while riding GP 4 Seasons, thus no one runs those anymore.

We are a 310 lb. team running Deep-V rims. We have tried a variety of lightweight tires to assess durability, rolling resistance, and ride quality. The best all-round summer tires we have found are the Conti 4000S Black Chili in 25c at 120 lbs, 230g. The only problem we have had with those tires is that in winter they pick up glass and small stones with resultant flats. Our current choice for winter tires are Schwalbe Durano also in 25c at 120 lbs, 255g. These have much better flat resistance, however we have had a couple of tire-ruining sidewall cuts with these, which we have not had with any tire other than Tricomnps, so we can't give them an unconditional approval rating. They do wear very well, however and seem a strong, easy-rolling, predictable tire in both wet and dry conditions, thus we continue to use them. The Durano is also available in 28c, 290g. We also have some experience with Maxxis Re-Fuse tires in 25c at 120 lbs, 280g. They were satisfactory, though didn't seem to do any better in the flat department than anything else, and they weren't the fastest tires we tried, so we've only gone through one set of those. The fastest tires we've used are Vredestein Tricomp in 23c at 140 lbs., 225g. These worked fine for us, except that they flatted much more easily in tandem use than they did on my singles, being susceptible to sidewall cuts as well as the usual glass flats, so we quit using them.

When we tour, we carry up to an additional 35 lbs. on our rear rack. For that condition we have chosen to run Vittoria Rubino Pro Tech tires in 28c at 115 lbs, 290g. These tires have a reinforced sidewall. We have never had any problem with those tires, no flats, no bad cuts, but I don't like the handling quite as well as the Conti or Durano tires in 25c. Perhaps I'd like them better with wider rims. The Velocity Chukker rim looks interesting.

I see that Schwalbe has a new tire, the Ultremo DD in 25c, 260g, which has a reinforced sidewall. We haven't tried them. They look interesting, but I wonder how they wear.

I'm not sure what to make of the talk about load ratings. Except for the Schwalbe touring tires, I'm not aware of any bike tire manufacturer who uses them. My guess is that the extremely stiff sidewalls of those tires don't like deflection, so Schwalbe chooses to try to limit it. I don't think it is simple engineering at all, since the stress and strain on a bike tire in use is probably impossible to measure. Thus we are reduced to guessing at tire durability. In general, we use tires and inflate them to pressures which don't give us pinch flats, trying to stay with the manufacturer's recommended maximum pressures. Other than that, we can use the best quality tires we can get our hands on.

From our history I believe we have suffered side wall cuts when running tires less than 30mm at less than 120 psi. We are only a 280-290 pound team but deformation appears to expose the thin sidewalls of lightweight tires. I have noticed watching other tandems that even a 28mm at 120 psi tire appears to bulge more than any tire I ride on my single.

We have very rough roads so not wanting to go to higher pressures we have moved to wide tires on our primary tandem. I do still run 28mm tires on our number two tandem and was planning to go back to Gatorskins at 130 psi. After reading Carbonfiberboy's post I might instead give a Schwalbe 28mm tires a try on it in the future.

Wayne

From our history I believe we have suffered side wall cuts when running tires less than 30mm at less than 120 psi. We are only a 280-290 pound team but deformation appears to expose the thin sidewalls of lightweight tires. I have noticed watching other tandems that even a 28mm at 120 psi tire appears to bulge more than any tire I ride on my single.

We have very rough roads so not wanting to go to higher pressures we have moved to wide tires on our primary tandem. I do still run 28mm tires on our number two tandem and was planning to go back to Gatorskins at 130 psi. After reading Carbonfiberboy's post I might instead give a Schwalbe 28mm tires a try on it in the future.

Wayne

Wayne, which wider tire are you running? Unrelated to this thread I've been thinking about going wider on our daVinci which I believe might even handle 35mm. We're currently running 28mm Conti GP 4 seasons and I confess at less than 120 psi, but since we're not a speed team I don't see much of a disadvantage to wider: will probably improve tire wear. (Note, the reason we dropped the 28mm tires below 120 was to improve rear tire wear)

From our history I believe we have suffered side wall cuts when running tires less than 30mm at less than 120 psi. We are only a 280-290 pound team but deformation appears to expose the thin sidewalls of lightweight tires. I have noticed watching other tandems that even a 28mm at 120 psi tire appears to bulge more than any tire I ride on my single.

We have very rough roads so not wanting to go to higher pressures we have moved to wide tires on our primary tandem. I do still run 28mm tires on our number two tandem and was planning to go back to Gatorskins at 130 psi. After reading Carbonfiberboy's post I might instead give a Schwalbe 28mm tires a try on it in the future.

WayneThe very confusing thing to me about tire width on a tandem is that I really do try to stay with the manufacturer's recommended maximum pressures. As you go wider, max allowable pressure goes down. I believe they do this because there's a max shear force on the bead which they don't want to see exceeded. Anyway, I don't see any more sidewall bulge on 23c at 140 lbs. than I see on light 32c tires at recommended pressures. I see the trick of tandem tire speccing as being to run tires with high allowable pressures for their class, whatever the width, and of course to run tires that seem to have strong casings.

If one had a bunch of tires of different widths, one could get out the calipers and, with stoker's assistance, determine % sidewall bulge with various tire widths at various pressures.

I certainly agree that sidewall durability seems to be a greater issue for tandems than for singles, but I'm not sure that it's a simple problem because it's the same rims and tires we use on our singles, but loaded much more heavily. We would like to have special tandem rims and tires with special tandem beads, but we don't.

Team weight about 290lbs. I believe that the pressures we ran below were high enough to avoid all sidewall wear and tear even on the tires with a reputation for very thin side walls.

Wider 700C tires that I have tried:

Panaracer pasela 32mm without tourguard belt @100psi (rated 95 psi) : Every roll down and ride I have done says these are as faster than any 28mm tire I have run at 130 psi but they don't feel fast. Wear is ok and flat resistance surprisingly good. Heavy due to wire bead. The tread pattern just looks slow and they feel slow.

Panaracer pasela 35mm (90 psi) : Similar to 32mm but felt worse and tandem had less clearance than i liked for the tire so I quit using them.

Shwalbe Kojack 35mm 95 psi (rated 95 psi): I had high hopes for this slick thin tread tire but I found it too loud and rough riding on chip seal in spite of only 95psi.

Grand Bois 30mm @100 psi: Performed great light, fast, felt smooth and light weight for a large tire. Stoker noticed and commented we were more than usual to keep in the group on downhills at SWTR. Not durable enough for our rides however and half the time we rode on wet roads we got a flat. Small glass shards quickly worked through the thin tread.

Grans Bois 38mm 650B @ 80-psi (rated 75 psi) : Current #1 tire. Except for the weight due to shear size this is the best tire for our roads with a folding bead and medium tread. Rear tire wear about 2500 miles. With my limited testing ability as fast as any tire of any size ridden on our rough roads. Of course results may vary on smooth roads and at 38mm wide it is anything but aero.

Since we now have the 650B tandem I am planning a return to 28mm at 130 psi on the our 700C tandem. It will be nice to have too very different feeling bikes. It will be interesting to see if any difference in average speed emerges over time because other than the wheels the tandems are similar.

Wayne

We are a light tandem duo (pilot 135, stoker 104) and always used fairly narrow tires.
Been riding tandem since 1975 and we rode 27x 1 1/8"s to as wide as 1 1/4"wire beaded tires.
When we switched to 700c we rode 700x23s for decades. Only in the last few years have we switched to 700x25s.
We tend to favor folding tires (lighter, easier to mount/dismount) and have been quite pleased with the Maxxis Re-Fuse. Decent quality for the price; tire wear usually in the 2,000 mile range for the rear and a bit more for front.
Have had a couple that rubber pulled away fron the casing but the Aramid layer prevented from flatting.
Between tandem and single bike, put in 5,600 miles on Maxxis Re-Fuse tires in 2011 and suffered ONE punture.
We do live/ride in the desert southwest and have lots of bad roads and detritus, including cacti thorns to contend with.
Though our decades of tandeming have had a few tire blowouts, even at speed, but never had the misfortune of crashing because of it.
Actually had rear tire (Avocet) blow off rim, wrapping inner tube into freewheel and showering the single biker drafting us with rubber bits. Caused instant stop, but fortunately was able to stay upright.
In a crash, pilot prefers to do paratrooper roll over the bars if possible; however, stoker is stuck going down with the machine.
Yes have done that at 30+ mph . . . no fun!
At our ages (80/77 this year) we're no longer doing super fast descents or loaded long tours; been there, done that!
We all choose certain brands/model/width/pressure of tires for our own reasons which are valid to us, but not always for other riders.
Heal well and keep a positive attitude!
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

We really don't know if this failure was caused by a defect in the tire or road debris. I think most are assuming it was a defect type failure. No brand of tire is perfect and all have some non-zero failure rate. Anecdotes of success or failure are interesting but not a gaurantee. We all have to gather info and make the performance -vs- durability choice that suits us. In general, a heavier tire will be more blowout resistant and probably last longer. High performance tires are generally lighter, less durable, have lower rolling resistance and more expensive.

We have had good luck with 28mm Gatorskins but I we don't have a lot to compare to. One Gatorskin I ran probably too long on the rear and it started to bulge (anuerism) on a ride where I couldn't replace it right away. I kept an eye on it, kept the speed down and was able to replace it before it failed.

The casing on a tire runs from bead -to- bead and the tread portion ususally has a few more layers on it. But the casing is the structure of the tire and whatever is on the tread does not add to the strength of the casing. It just makes the tread area more puncture resistant.

I couldn't find the $52 on the 28mm Conti GP 4 seasons size, but ordered four tires and tubes from Wiggle for a total of $181. Unless I've completely misunderstood the price as a pair price that's an unbelievable value.

Just to confirm the above. I received the tires today from Wiggle. Four tires, four tubes from the UK in four days. The tubes are Conti touring so they seem pretty heavy, but this almost makes the GP 4 Seasons affordable.

Well, I can't say anything about performance yet, but the descriptions of the Schwalbe Marathon Supreme sounded so good that we (330 lbs team, but dropping...) recently bought a pair in anticipation of the impending melt. We are long time Gatorskin (700 x 28, usually wire, sometimes folding) users, and have no complaints. Have also tried Panaracer Paselas (700 x 28) and like the road feel, but they seem to wear pretty quickly. Anyway, just bought the Marathon Supremes in 700 x 32 and looking forward to the tests. Reason for 32s was all I've been reading about comfort and rolling resistance with bigger tires. Unfortunately, these barely clear the rear brake hanger, so might switch to 28s.
http://www.schwalbetires.com/bike_tires/road_tires/marathon_supreme
http://www.schwalbetires.com/files/x_img_08_marathon-supreme_0.gif?0

So, all my prior experience is with singles and gatorskins or vittoria race tires. However on my wife's new commuter single, the LBS has installed the Vittoria randonneur pro. and while it's a little wide at 35mm, it would seem to be a decent tire. has anyone tried the vittoria rando series, and if they have, what were their thoughts?

Well, I can't say anything about performance yet, but the descriptions of the Schwalbe Marathon Supreme sounded so good that we (330 lbs team, but dropping...) recently bought a pair in anticipation of the impending melt. We are long time Gatorskin (700 x 28, usually wire, sometimes folding) users, and have no complaints. Have also tried Panaracer Paselas (700 x 28) and like the road feel, but they seem to wear pretty quickly. Anyway, just bought the Marathon Supremes in 700 x 32 and looking forward to the tests. Reason for 32s was all I've been reading about comfort and rolling resistance with bigger tires. Unfortunately, these barely clear the rear brake hanger, so might switch to 28s.
http://www.schwalbetires.com/bike_tires/road_tires/marathon_supreme
http://www.schwalbetires.com/files/x_img_08_marathon-supreme_0.gif?0

While Schwalbe Marathons are high quality tires from what I hear there durability comes at the cost of some comfort. I have not tried them but that was the case with the Schwalbe Kojaks we tried. Kojacks are a good tire but the 35mm tires we tried were not the most comfortable. In my opinion comfort takes a wide and fairly flexible tire. I have yet to find that perfect tire in 700C, but Pasela non tourgaurd 32mm or 35mm gives me a better ride than the Kojacks.

Wayne

A bit more information to digest. Healing progressing as expected. This will take some time. Wifes comming along. Got back in the pool for the first time. Being a competitive Master's swimmer this is important, and she's been on the trainer for a week or so. My wound's are a bit slower. Stitches are out but theres still some pins that are partially exposed to keep the fingers imobilized. They will be removed in 30 days. Must wear a splint to protect the fingers from being struck. 3/4 & 5 are fused do to bone loss /knuckles ground to powder. Hand's a bit sore still but pain is only temporary. We believe the cut was due to debris/ crappy road in general. Tire was mounted that morning. Our team weight is 290lbs. Wheels are White/Velocity Deep V.Air pressure 110psi. The wife will get back on the tandem. Not sure I will. Grip strength will be a factor. And I need to get control of the flashbacks. I've been a motorcycle racer/bike rider my entire life. Skill level's not the problem. Just an unlucky day. Bought our first tandem in 89'. The Co-Motion Supremo is our 3rd. We ride this thing every weekend. Were members of Santa Rosa Cycling Club. Still haven't examined the bike. I'll get to it. Our spirits are high. Thank's, Mike & Michele.

Your injuries sound pretty serious to me. Not sure if either one of us would get back on a bike after an experience like that. Based on your description, it sounds like it could happen to any one of us. Good luck to you.

Thanks mkane77g for the additional details.