Tandem Cycling - Help with first tandem

I know that these "help me choose a bike" threads get tiresome, but any help is appreciated.

My wife and I are considering getting our first tandem. Some of the issues that will effect our selection are, in no particular order:

Captain - 190 lbs, 5'11" - fairly strong solo rider, with fairly aggressive solo bike (BMC SLO1 with about 4.5" saddle to bar drop, standard crank, 12-24 rear) Likes group riding, rides a couple of thousand miles per year, 50 - 100 mile rides most weekends and commute / training / spin rides weather permitting during the week.

Stoke - 125 lbs, 5'2" - more casual rider, with hybrid bike with tall head tube / stem, flat bars, triple crank and ??? in back. Commutes and enjoys a half dozen metric or imperial centuries a season and finished the 200 mile two day STP last year with a smile on her face. She has a couple of fused vertebrae in her neck so is not comfortable with traditional drop bars.

We live in the Pacific Northwest and ride in some pretty hilly terrain. Occasionally, I wish I had a compact chain ring or 28 in the rear. (Just need to HTFU I guess :) )

Our budget was around $1,500 for a used bike, but you know what happens to budgets... Realizing that we would have to do some work in the rear cockpit to fit the stoker, what does the assembled tandem brain trust think of something along these lines:

http://seattle.craigslist.org/est/bik/2877346870.html

This is one of the few bikes we've found close to our budget that has integrated shifters, which I consider a must; I don't think I would be too happy about going back to bar end or down tube shifters. Not knowing much about tandem specific components I could use some guidance for the rest of the drive train items.

Thanks again for any advice!

This bike looks to be pretty big for a 5'2" stoker. I don't know what that red adapter thingy is for in the brake line. Also, this tandem has 26" wheels; is this what you're looking for?

(I live in Kirkland also and am available for private messages if you would like.)

swc7916,

Thank you for the reply.

In my innocence, I assumed that a longer 'stem,' (is that what you call it for the thing that holds the stoker's bars?) and moving the seat forward on it's rails would take care of Stoker fit. Evidently, there is more to it.

Are 700cm wheels standard for tandems these days?

There's no right or wrong for 26" vs 700c wheels, but there's a million opinions. Personally, I prefer 26" wheels, but that's mainly because I'm only 5'8" and bike geometry starts getting wacky when you try to squeeze 700c wheels into a bike frame in my size.

You're only a short drive from Snoqualmie, so you should just go see it in person. If I didn't already have a new tandem on order from R&E in Seattle, I'd be tempted to go look at that Santana myself.

That red brake cable booster looks like the device that Precision Tandems calls a "Brake Power Booster" on their parts page (http://www.precisiontandems.com/catframepart.htm).
http://www.precisiontandems.com/cat_pics/brbpb.jpg

In my innocence, I assumed that a longer 'stem,' (is that what you call it for the thing that holds the stoker's bars?) and moving the seat forward on it's rails would take care of Stoker fit. Evidently, there is more to it.

In order to fit a 5'2" stoker and have room for a suspension seatpost, I would expect the toptube to slope more, resulting in a shorter stoker seattube. Yes, you can adjust the reach to the handlebars by lengthening and/or raising the stoker stem however the saddle is adusted up/down and fore/aft to fit the rider's relationship with the pedals, not to adjust the reach to the handlebars. Adjust the seat first, then deal with the handlebar position.

That red brake cable booster looks like the device that Precision Tandems calls a "Brake Power Booster" on their parts page (http://www.precisiontandems.com/catframepart.htm).


It is hard to tell from the photos, but it appears that this bike has V-brakes so this thing must have been used in place of a TravelAgent.

Alright then, to Snoqualmie this weekend it is!

I know it's hard to do on line without seeing the bike first hand, and I hope that if the seller is on line that he or she is not offended, but does this price look appropriate?

Also, with regard to the 26" wheels - I have no problem with the substantial toe overlap on my single bike. I could imagine a challenge on a tandem. While a a smaller wheel might lose style points and complicate family tube and tire inventory, it may be worth the trouble.

May I suggest this one: http://seattle.craigslist.org/est/bik/2874517165.html
or this one: http://seattle.craigslist.org/est/bik/2882852914.html
or even this one for only $550: http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/bik/2871893952.html

I did have my eye on the Burley as well. We're specifically looking for a road bike, so the Specialized doesn't quite fit the bill and, as lovely as it is, the Rodriquez is definitely beyond the budget. (Hmmm... wonder if it fits though...)

For proper stoker fit, she should be able to stand with feet on the ground without the toptube hitting her in the crotch.
If she can do that, then adjust saddle and stoker handlebar/stem to fit her.

I would almost guarantee that this is NOT the bike for you. That is a larger frame, and your stoker won't even be able to stand over the top tube, let alone have any clearance.

The bike seems overpriced to me, (then again ALL Santanas seem overpriced to me), but we can't really tell without more information.

Personally, I'm always amazed by ads like this and what the owner apparently doesn't know to tell you. What year is it? What model is it? And what frame sizes, for Pete's sake? His "opinion" of who it will fit is NOT the same as giving you the actual frame sizes or stand-over heights. Additionally, there have been some mods done to the bike, so how about a complete component list? (the Chris King headset and brake booster being two.)

Lastly, since you're new to tandems, be aware that Santanas use 160mm spacing on their rear wheels, whereas the rest of the industry uses 145mm. This can and does create multiple issues with availability and interchangeability.

This bike looks to be pretty big for a 5'2" stoker. I don't know what that red adapter thingy is for in the brake line. Also, this tandem has 26" wheels; is this what you're looking for?

(I live in Kirkland also and am available for private messages if you would like.)

The red adapter is a brake booster. it works on a pivot and increases the pull / stroke of the brake leaver.

With regard to the frame size, it does "look big" in the photo, but if those are 26'rs, then it might be an illusion. I'd be concerned about the reach for your wife (more from a crank length & cadence perspective), over being able to reach the ground.

a nice feature is that it has the (what appears to be totally unmolested) drag brake on it, so never a question of overheating your rims.

May I suggest this one: http://seattle.craigslist.org/est/bik/2874517165.html


Look at that crazy drop on the Rodriguez! What, are they TT'ing?

If you don't mind making the drive down here to Portland, I've seen this Cannondale http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/bik/2878405084.html on sale for a bit, and it even already has the thudbuster in the back.

That is a larger frame, and your stoker won't even be able to stand over the top tube, let alone have any clearance.

I was taught that standover clearance isn't really mandatory for a tandem stoker since the captain will have both feet planted firmly on the ground holding the bike up while the stoker climbs on. For the stoker, the pedal to saddle to handlebar distances are what really matter. However, I'm a tandem newbie so I'm open to more education...


The bike seems overpriced to me...

Cash and a little negotiation will usually reduce that problem. ;-)

As a newbie I can attest that our Trek T1000(2006 ish) has been great. I really don't know yet how it compares to more expensive tandems(currently putting together our Comotion)but it has handled everything i could throw at it and more(we are thinking of trying cyclocross on it next season). I am an ex Pro Motorcycle racer so handling was important.

We purchased it about a year and a half ago (for $1000 CND)and have had nothing but the best experience.

We bought a set of Rolf wheels that we use for Gran Fondo's etc otherwise is original right down to tires(on our third set of Bontrager race lite hard case).

I was taught that standover clearance isn't really mandatory for a tandem stoker since the captain will have both feet planted firmly on the ground holding the bike up while the stoker climbs on. For the stoker, the pedal to saddle to handlebar distances are what really matter. However, I'm a tandem newbie so I'm open to more education...

While it is better to have stand over clearance it is not required. If the stoker is happy to step on a pedal and swing her leg over the bike like getting on or off a horse then it should work out fine. Not all stokers are willing or able to do so.

The picture below was taken from the Precision Tandem web site.


240565


Wayne

Sometimes during a longer stop it's nice for both captain and stoker to be able to put their feet on the ground, say when you're waiting in a pack of 9,000 bicyclists at the start of the El Tour de Tuscon, but clearly not mandatory.

So, have you made a decision on the frame yet? Inquiring minds want to know!

While it is not 'mandatory' for stoker to have standover room, it's not 'mandatory' for pilot to have standover room either . . . but it makes sense.
Have actually piloted a couple test tandems whereby frame was a tad large and had to tip-toe at stops rather than putting full foot down. Not too comfortable/secure a situation for either rider.
Would you wear shoes that are too large or too small?
Why not?
Just our input/reasoning.

We have only dumped twice in many years of tandeming. Both time while moving forward at less than walking speed. Once while blowing a shift on a ridiculously steep hill. Once when turning too sharply at the other side of a cross walk. Both times my stoker was able to put a foot on the ground and reduce the severity of the sudden unplanned stop. So, like the others said, standover room is not mandatory, but I would not have it any other way. Also be aware of the fact many stokers have a bad psycological reaction to the tall bar in front of them--mine does!

A 5'2" stoker probably would need a 165mm crank. That is the first thing I would look for. Then placing her on the saddle with one leg parallel to the ground a plumb line from her knee should just touch the end of the crank. Slide the seat fore and aft for this adjustment. Only after this is done then adjust the stem and bars for comfortable seating.

I strongly suggest you visit the local tandems listed above before deciding. Also I have seen some pretty nice used tandems in the R&E store in the "U" district in Seattle. Close to you.

JamieElenbaas - You might want to check out the Evergreen Tandem Club, a good active group of tandem cyclists in the greater Seattle area. Sometimes members will buy a new bike and have a used one for sale - occassionally they list bikes in a classifed section that I think may only be accessed by members:

http://www.evergreentandemclub.org/index.php

Also check out Elliot Bay Bicycles, where Davidson bicycles are built. They sometimes have used tandmes for sale and it looks like they have a couple now - here is a link to their used bikes, with a couple of tandems listed:

http://elliottbaybicycles.com/consignments/

If you are down near the market it is fun to check out some of the old bikes that have been restored that are on display in the shop.

While it is not 'mandatory' for stoker to have standover room, it's not 'mandatory' for pilot to have standover room either . . . but it makes sense.
Have actually piloted a couple test tandems whereby frame was a tad large and had to tip-toe at stops rather than putting full foot down. Not too comfortable/secure a situation for either rider.
Would you wear shoes that are too large or too small?
Why not?
Just our input/reasoning.

Just in case there is a misunderstanding, I my opinion the Captain should always have stand over clearance. Likewise a tandem that fits both riders is always preferable over one that is just good enough to be safe to ride.

As to why not one that fits better, the original poster was requesting information about a first tandem for a team with a substantial size difference between captain and stoker. Not everyone is willing or able to pay for a custom frame for their first tandem. An adequate starter tandem might be needed to convince a new team that the substantial outlay for a custom frame is worth the money.

Wayne

Hey all - Sorry for going dark, I was traveling last week.

While I was trying to be reasonable with the expenditure, my stoker got very excited about a custom bike, so we have an appointment this weekend with R&E to get a measurement and quote on a new bike. What's that bit about the stoker never making a mistake? :rolleyes:

Unfortunately, my travels included a freak skiing accident that resulted in a sprained ankle, so I'll have to reschedule the measurement appointment by a week or two until I can properly pedal a bike.

In the meanwhile, some similarly sized friends have offered to loan us one of their tandems so we can get an idea of what is important to us on a tandem. I will probably be reluctant to try it out until my foot feels strong enough to hold us both up if necessary.

As for the standover question, I really feel that my stoker should be able to stand with both feet on the ground, so 0" standover would be a no go on any used bike.

I will keep you posted on our progress. Does anyone have an experience with Rodriquez?

DoubleDiamondDog,

Hey - great suggestions, especially the recommendation to look at the Elliot Bay consignments - that white Davidson might be just the ticket (as long as the top tube is not too high in back ;)).

+++ for borrowing a tandem. The more you ride, the more you'll know and the more you'll know what's right for your team.

In the meanwhile, some similarly sized friends have offered to loan us one of their tandems so we can get an idea of what is important to us on a tandem...
Does anyone have an experience with Rodriquez?

My experience with R&E is "in progress". We finalized our build order 27 days ago, so it should be ready for pickup in the next week or two.

R&E has the green Toucan ST which is pictured on their web site (see below) configured as a one-size-adjustable-to-fit-all loaner bike. After my wife and I did our fitting, Smiley setup the loaner bike to match our recommended fit settings and we got to take it home for the weekend (Friday afternoon until Tuesday afternoon). I had a great weekend riding it with my wife, both my daughters, and my brother taking turns as stoker. That weekend was the clincher which convinced us to take the plunge and order our own tandem, although we ordered the Classic model instead of the Toucan since we intend to use it for fully-loaded touring.

http://rodbikes.com/catalog/toucanst/images/toucan-st2-1.jpg

Hey all - Sorry for going dark, I was traveling last week.

While I was trying to be reasonable with the expenditure, my stoker got very excited about a custom bike, so we have an appointment this weekend with R&E to get a measurement and quote on a new bike. What's that bit about the stoker never making a mistake? :rolleyes:

Unfortunately, my travels included a freak skiing accident that resulted in a sprained ankle, so I'll have to reschedule the measurement appointment by a week or two until I can properly pedal a bike.

In the meanwhile, some similarly sized friends have offered to loan us one of their tandems so we can get an idea of what is important to us on a tandem. I will probably be reluctant to try it out until my foot feels strong enough to hold us both up if necessary.

As for the standover question, I really feel that my stoker should be able to stand with both feet on the ground, so 0" standover would be a no go on any used bike.

I will keep you posted on our progress. Does anyone have an experience with Rodriquez?

Several of our friends have Rodriguez bikes. They are awesome.

I was fairly close to pulling the trigger on a a Rodriguez, but my cannondale just made more sense in the end. I love the rental / trial tandem aspect, really gives you the time to figure out what you like, don't like and heck if you really want to do this crazy thing!

Does anyone have an experience with Rodriquez?
Last Fall they repaired my twenty-three year old Tango. My beast of a stoker had managed to shear off his seat tube at his bottom bracket. (He breaks his steel single bikes too.) Since there was also a bit of rust at the breakage point, Dan realized the repair would be much cheaper and easier if he just put a second eccentric in, which allowed him to grind the rusted portions of the tubing off. he also added a couple of reinforcements (like the toucan), charged us next to nothing and got the bike back to us in one week. I have nothing but high praise for R+E so far. I've also never heard anything but good words about them.

I say so far because I am also going to have them build me a new custom tandem. I was going to have them build it this winter, but I spent a couple of months out of commission so we decided to put it off until summer. I hope the line doesn't get too long before we pull the trigger.

R&E have been around a long time and over the years have had their ups and downs. I think that they are a very well regarded shop these days and have a solid history of building tandems. They definitely have their preferences regarding tandems (26" wheels, 8/9 speed drive trains, bar ends, canti brakes) and Smiley is eager to promote them but I am sure they will build as you prefer if you want something different. They make a nice, reasonably priced, custom all around or touring tandem. They also make what they call Ultra-light steel tandems (27 lbs w/ cages & pedals) but personally if I were looking for a custom "road bike" tandem in the Seattle area I would lean toward Davidson. Davidson also builds great tour and all around tandems, but the process is more open ended and better suited to those who have a stronger sense of what they want. Both great shops.

Perhaps this should be another thread.

Being new to tandems, I am surprised at how many tandems, even brand new ones, have bar end shifters. I have come to love STI and cannot imagine going back. Is it a style / tradition thing, or is there a specific reason to go this route on tandems?

Perhaps this should be another thread.

Being new to tandems, I am surprised at how many tandems, even brand new ones, have bar end shifters. I have come to love STI and cannot imagine going back. Is it a style / tradition thing, or is there a specific reason to go this route on tandems?

The only technical reason I've seen mentioned is reliability. A good number of tandems are used for multi-day tours, overseas adventures, etc. There is nothing more reliable than bar-ends which seem also be be favored by those on singles doing tours and those other forms of ultra-distance lunacy;) I wouldn't like to be in the boonies looking for a r/h Campy Ergo shifter (which is what I have on our tandem)

I agree with rdtompki - bar ends are the most trouble free and field repairable of shifters (well, nobody uses downtube shifters anymore, at least on tandems). Frankly I love the simplicity and economy of bar end shifters and even some people who do not tour favor them - zonatandem has logged and continues to log many a mile.

For for me, however, I like the brifters - integrated brakes and shifters. I shift a lot and we use a 10 speed 12-27 cassette that has relatively small jumps between gears to keep our cadence in a tighter range than many teams care about so I like being able to shift from the hoods or drops. With bar ends, you always have to reach down for a shift. It is not a big deal and if you don't mind letting cadence vary more and shifting less it can be addressed in part.

If I were you, looking for a first tandem, I would not be concerned about bar ends vs brifters. Over time you may find that you want to make a change from one to the other and can do so in the future. Alternativey, you may find that what you have works fine.

It is hard to tell from the photos, but it appears that this bike has V-brakes so this thing must have been used in place of a TravelAgent.

That's what it is/does.

Reading the last post makes me think back a little to the R&E and Davidson post.

I explained to Smiley @ Rodriquez the type of riding we would do, our objectives, values etc. He described the tandem outfitted as they like to do. I said that we will never tour on the bike, probably won't even have a rack on it and he responded in essence that we might change our mind, it is good to be versatile and stronger is better - good advice for those not quite as sure about what they are after. I think their bikes are great and are a good choice for most people, but a custom bike there is more about a good fit and picking your colors and there is nothing wrong with that - a custom fit and your own look are great and the price is very reasonable for the classic.

When I explained to Bill Davidson what we were after he had many questions as we sat and talked for a long time. Among other things it came out that our budget was open but that I was really looking for good value. I'll spare all of the details of what was a thoughtful and for me enjoyable process but we ended up with a custom fit TIG welded steel frame (vast majority of his tandems were direct lateral but he choose to do ours double diamond - hence my forum handle) with carbon fork, mostly ultegra (dura ace FD) 10 speed, 700c rims , caliper brakes - a bike far different from what smiley assured me was the best for us. As for value, our 29 lb bike was less than 2/3 the cost of 30.8 lb ultralight that and a little more than 40% of the cost of th 27 lb ultralight that R&E sell if you want something lighter than the classic.

Anyway, the point of this post is not to say that one shop is better than the other. Tandemnistas is Seattle are lucky to have access to two great tandem builders and CoMotion is not far away on I-5.

DoublediamonDog's comment is interesting to me because I am not aware of any custom tandem builders in our area. Did Davidson discuss with you the tubing specifications on your tandem?

DoublediamonDog's comment is interesting to me because I am not aware of any custom tandem builders in our area. Did Davidson discuss with you the tubing specifications on your tandem?

waynesulak - Are you in the Seattle area? Davidson bicycles are part of Elliot Bay bicycles, near the market. If you haven't been to the market for a while pop down, buy some fish, baked goods etc and visit Elliot Bay bicycles. It is like a bike museum with cool bikes hanging around the shop. If you have lots of time to spend, strike up a conversation with Bob Freeman. Their web site doesn't seem to be the greatest and I don't even see a link from Elliot Bay to Davidson but here is the Davidson site:

http://www.davidsonbicycles.com/

I don't know if there are currently any tandems in the gallery but do not be put off by that - he builds quite a number of tandems each year.

Bill and I did not discuss tubing spec other than my asking what he was using - I simply don't know enough to really have such a conversation. If I recall correctly it was a mix of 725 and 853 tubing. Large ovalized boom tube, top tube and down tube larger than the seat tubes - can't say much more than that. Went with double diamond design because my wife and I are relatively short with cartoon bodies - short legs, longs torsos - standover height = short head tube and very crowded to fit top/lateral/downtubes and required stiffness could be achieved otherwise. We did discuss components quite a bit and Bob and I further discussed components.

Again, not to give the wrong impression previously about R&E I think they are a great shop and builder - there are many very happy teams riding Rodiquez.

waynesulak - Are you in the Seattle area? Davidson bicycles are part of Elliot Bay bicycles, near the market. If you haven't been to the market for a while pop down, buy some fish, baked goods etc and visit Elliot Bay bicycles. It is like a bike museum with cool bikes hanging around the shop. If you have lots of time to spend, strike up a conversation with Bob Freeman. Their web site doesn't seem to be the greatest and I don't even see a link from Elliot Bay to Davidson but here is the Davidson site:

http://www.davidsonbicycles.com/

I don't know if there are currently any tandems in the gallery but do not be put off by that - he builds quite a number of tandems each year.

Bill and I did not discuss tubing spec other than my asking what he was using - I simply don't know enough to really have such a conversation. If I recall correctly it was a mix of 725 and 853 tubing. Large ovalized boom tube, top tube and down tube larger than the seat tubes - can't say much more than that. Went with double diamond design because my wife and I are relatively short with cartoon bodies - short legs, longs torsos - standover height = short head tube and very crowded to fit top/lateral/downtubes and required stiffness could be achieved otherwise. We did discuss components quite a bit and Bob and I further discussed components.

Again, not to give the wrong impression previously about R&E I think they are a great shop and builder - there are many very happy teams riding Rodiquez.

I am in Fort Worth, Texas. Thanks for the tubing information. I have visited the website and it seems like an interesting operation.

Well, the budget got thrown out the window. Last night we put a deposit down on a new custom made Davidson that should be ready mid-June.

Because our stoker has some specific physical needs with a few fused vertebrata in her neck, building a custom bike made some sense. We are still working out some of the trivial items like geometry, material, gearing and such, but I think we have a pretty good handle on the important stuff like color and finish :)

We'll keep y'all posted on our progress. One thing I have noticed is that anything to do with a tandem seems to be twice as expensive... Car racks,:eek:

Hey all - Sorry for going dark, I was traveling last week.

While I was trying to be reasonable with the expenditure, my stoker got very excited about a custom bike, so we have an appointment this weekend with R&E to get a measurement and quote on a new bike. What's that bit about the stoker never making a mistake? :rolleyes:


As I am sure you have heard, the stoker is always right.

I found one unexpected effect of this rule after we started riding a tandem. The bike budget was greatly expanded!

After all of the thoughtful comments, I owe you all a follow-up.

The Davidson was completed on June 15, and between miscellaneous local riding, the Northwest Tandem Rally and Seattle to Portland ride under our belts we have about 500 miles on the bike. I am still fine tuning the captain's cockpit and we have come to the conclusion that a suspended stoker's seat post is in order. I will create a separate thread to solicit recommendations on the stoker's seat post.

Thanks for all of your help!

Pictures?

262073
One of the reasons we say that stoker/fit standover room is important:
In a panic stop/crash (yes, they do happen!) stoker will avoid hitting crotch on the top tube . . .
We've crashed at 30+ mph . . . no fun, lotsa roadrash/black eye/ pretzled front wheel/cracked helmet but . . . no damage to the nether regions.
While pilot can tuck/roll over the bars, stoker is stuck and goes down with the bike.
Four days after that crash we had a new wheel and rode a previously planned 200 mile tandem loop by the Grand Canyon. Yes, Kay is one tough stoker!
However, each team makes their own decision.
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy/zonatandem

262094
Reading Satana's 2012 tandem website it states:
". . . .stoker standover room is inconsequential."
My stoker read that and said ". . . yeah, and pigs can fly!"