Tandem Cycling - Tandem Hill Climbing

What kind of climbing do you do on your tandem? What types of hills have you tackled? What's the steepest you've cycled up? Have you taken on long, hilly rides?

Share some tips and tricks you've used to get up hills with your tandem.


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-- First of all, we adjusted our gearing ...

At first our lowest gear was 30T chainring and 34T cassette, and we were getting up some relatively steep hills (8% and 2-3 km long) without too much difficulty, but we struggled with steeper and longer hills.

Then we changed to a 26T chainring with the 34T cassette, and felt more comfortable on more hills or somewhat steeper hills. With this combination we did a relatively hilly 300K which contained two steep hills (9-10% and 2-3 km long). We made it partway up both of those hills, before finally getting off and walking the rest of the way. Just recently we tackled a ride where in the first 136 km we climbed 5000 ft, including several longish (2-3 km) steep ones.

And finally we changed our cassette so that our low gear was 26T chainring and 36T cassette. (Gear inch rating of 20.2 GI) That's about as low as we can go with a comfortable cadence, maintaining about 7 km/h, and still able to handle the bicycle. We have not yet tried it out on anything terribly steep. The 36-11 cassette has a very nicely spaced gear range and we're not struggling so much to find the right the gear on inclines, flats, and declines.


-- Secondly, we try to maintain a steady pace without pushing too hard up the hills. I tend to try to push a bit, but Rowan tells me to ease up and keep it steady so that we don't blow up before the top or later in the event.


-- Thirdly, we took on an Alpine Ascent Challenge on our single bicycles, and have been working on our climbing skills and fitness levels individually.


But we're still working on our tandem climbing skills.

The toughest hills we've ridden up would be 8 miles, 3000' of total climbing with short stretches (1/4 mile) 13-14% and longish (2 miles) at 10% or so. We currently have 24t chainring and an 11-32 cassette on our daVinci, but I've been thinking of changing the cassette to 11-36. The cooler it is the better we climb since the captain doesn't cool well at higher temperatures.

The biggest challenge for us is not blowing up on really steep, shorter pitches which is where the 36t cog might come in handy. The long climb described, above, has a short pitch of at least 16% at the very top and we can't get up that riding.

Our very modest climbing ability limits us to 100K organized rides with no more than 3500' of climbing or perhaps an occasional century with a bit more.

My captain and I do like the climbing! Living in the SF Bay area our training ground included Mt. Diablo, Mt. Tamalpais, Mt. Hamilton and Sierra Road. We've enjoyed Mt. Shasta several times, we've ridden the Mt. Laguna Century and the White Mountain Double and Death Valley Double Centuries.
We started on a Cannondale RT3000, which we wore out and now we ride a Pinarello. Our lowest gear is 30-28, and we have disc brakes (I have a friction shifter on the rear disc brake to feed in drag on the long downhills after we climb). Our pedals are in sync.
Last summer was our biggest climbing adventure, we took the tandem to France and rode Alpe d'Huez, Col du Galibier, and Mont Ventoux. Each climb consisted of about 2 hours of continuous climbing (some standing, mostly seated). For long sustained climbs we try to find that fine line between boredom and exhaustion and embrace it. We call it "Earning Our View".
We enjoyed it so much that, we moved to Northern Europe last October. We are looking forward to the Alps this summer and perhaps the Pyrenees next summer.

I run a 30/28 low gear on my tandem. I've done some really long, in the 20+/- mile range, 2%-6% climbs. The lowest gear on the tandem isn't such a big deal there because we're not in it much. I've climbed 10 miles with an average grade of 14% and I've done some much shorter five mile climbs that have had pitches up into the low 20% range. We've been able to get up them pretty handily with the existing gearing.

I like the spacing on the 11-28. I'd be bothered with the spacing on an 11-36. The jumps are too big for me but gearing is very individual and you should go with what works well for you. As you guys get stronger on the tandem (and individually) you may find that you don't need such low gears.

As far as blowing up goes, that can be a big problem on long distance events (I'm sure I don't have to tell you or Rowan that ;) ). Don't know if you use a HR monitor but that might be a useful tool to help keep you out of the red zone. If you know your body real well you can get buy without one (I have/do). If you need to, you may just have to stop and take a brake on really long or steep climbs to get your heart rate back down.

I've climbed 10 miles with an average grade of 14%....

It would be interesting to see an upload of that climb, such as on Garmin Connect or Strava. The steepest 10 mile climb in the US has been thought to be (http://www.2009tourdefrancenews.com/article/0,6610,s1-2-18-17168-1,00.html) the 8.3% grade of the Eastern Sierra's Onion Valley Rd.

My bad, it's not 14%overall. It's 7.5% average with sections to 14%. That's a small difference isn't it! ;) It's Townes Pass, I think you can find lots of info on it as it's part of the FC508 course. I've climbed Onion Valley Rd. on my single, not the tandem, great climb!

Our gearing is 53-42-30, with a 12-29 cassette.

Our biggest climb has been Old Tollhouse (http://app.strava.com/rides/177486#7190278), 6.7 miles, 7.2% average grade. We haven't repeated this feat only because of stoker descent aversion.

The steepest significant segment we've done is Redwood Gulch (http://app.strava.com/rides/177517#35311869) (we only had a 27 cog then), 1.2 miles, 10.8% average grade.

On the Low Key Hill Climbs, we've done Montebello (http://lowkey.djconnel.com/2011/week1/results.html), Old La Honda (http://lowkey.djconnel.com/2010/week2/results.html), Palomares (http://lowkey.djconnel.com/2011/week5/results.html), and Kings Mountain Road (http://lowkey.djconnel.com/2011/week8/results.html).

We love this climb http://www.mapmyride.com/routes/view/16737731
We do it on our 30-32 we actually like to go about 300ft higher to the salt shed.

We have to stop five times on the descent to let the rims and brakes cool down. There is a short section of 18%(according to the sign anyway).

Some people like the Pemberton to Lilooet and back but we have not had time yet.

We have a 52-39-26 in front and a 12-34 in back. With that combo we have some good choices in the two larger rings. We are not a strong team at all, but we do train. We climb about 1500'/hour on a long steady climb. So far our best long climb has been 3800' in 18.5 miles, and for a full ride, about 6000' over a 62 mile loop. We have climbed short 18-19% grades, but luckily there's not much of that around here. We have some 2 mile climbs with 10% sections that we do occasionally, but that's about as tough as it gets here. We prefer the 4-6% stuff so we can keep up a decent cadence. We both wear HRMs and keep our HRs about the same, which works very well for us.

We were going to do a 200k yesterday, but it was snowing at the start so we came home and went back to bed. We've seldom seen a bad day for riding, but yesterday was one. Went out today with some 37° rain and did about 1800' over 38 miles with friends mostly on singles. When we got into tandem country toward the end, we went off the front and TTed the last 10 miles to finish our quota of zone 4 for the week. Like I say, we're not fast, only 20-22 into a light headwind, but we got pretty cooked. That was good for us. 13.2 average, also good for us with that much climbing with singles. We didn't go on the descents, choosing to ride the brakes with the singles and then also climb with them for a good workout. Excellent beer, chowder, and conversation after.

We've done a lot of the iconic climbs in the French Alps on our tandem (e.g., Alpe d'Huez, Galibier), plus many of the lesser-known ones and many in Switzerland.

The two toughest climbs we've done are the Nufenen Pass in Switzerland, which averages 8.5% for 13 km (8 miles), and tops out at almost 2,500 metres (8,000 ft), see details here (http://www.climbbybike.com/climb.asp?Col=Passo-della-Nufenen&qryMountainID=5517). Plus, a tiny road in the Chartreuse mountains north of Grenoble, France, which averaged 10% for 6 km, with a couple of touring panniers (we did have to stop for a rest halfway through, but managed to ride the whole thing). We have done sections of 15-18% for a few hundred metres, and have never had to resort to walking yet.

We can maintain a steady pace of 700 vertical metres per hour for as long as necessary, or we can go full gas at 900 to 1000 metres per hour for about 10 minutes. I use the vertical ascent rate info on our Garmin instead of a power meter or heart rate monitors to know if we're riding a sustainable pace or not. My stoker climbs much faster when the air temperature is below 20 C / 70 F than when it is above, so in the summer we try not to do the big climbs in the middle of the day (when we have a choice).

Our gearing is 53-39-26 with a 12-32 10-speed cassette (700x28 tires); the 26-32 has been just about sufficient for all climbs, and I wouldn't want to go any lower than that because it would mean larger spacing between cogs or chainrings. The bike is not all that light, a Comotion Speedster co-pilot, but we prefer versatility over lightweight.

Cogsets or cassettes:

11-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-32-36
18% 15% 13% 12% 11% 14% 17% 14% 13%

11-13-15-17-19-21-23-26-30-34
18% 15% 13% 12% 11% 13% 15% 13%

11-12-14-16-18-20-22-25-28-32
18% 15% 14% 13% 11% 10% 14% 12% 14%

These are the percentage differences between the cogs (I think). It really is funny how perception often is not quite in synch with fact when referencing the steps on the 34-11 cassette compared with the 36-11. The 34-11 obviously is a lot more even between each gear compared with the 36-11, but that 17% difference didn't really seem that odd in practice.

I have done most of my riding on the 32-11, and those funny steps of 10% and 14% certainly have caused me issues in the past trying to find the right gear between the 18, 20 and 22 teeth cogs. Maybe that's why the 36-11 seemed to be an improvement... and I probably overlooked how mmuch more even the 34-11 was.

Anyway, it has been interesting to read how a number of other tandem riders might also find the same issues we find in climbing. We are surrounded by hills where we live, and Australian randonnee organisers generally believe in making their events challenging if not downright sadistic.

Machka referred to an attempted 400 in the East Gippsland area which involved more than 5000 feet of climbing over the 136km we actually did complete. The weather in the early part of the ride also was really crappy with lots of rain.

A couple of weeks later, we chatted to another rider at the turnaround point for our 200, and he asked if the ride was organised by a particular person. "Yes" was the answer. Then came a shudder and "I don't do his events". Now, this came from someone who is very experienced, pretty fit, and has been involved with Audax Australia for many years.

I think his reaction told the story quite well. It made us feel a little bit better. And so has this thread.

Cogsets or cassettes:

11-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-32-36
18% 15% 13% 12% 11% 14% 17% 14% 13%

11-13-15-17-19-21-23-26-30-34
18% 15% 13% 12% 11% 13% 15% 13%

11-12-14-16-18-20-22-25-28-32
18% 15% 14% 13% 11% 10% 14% 12% 14%

These are the percentage differences between the cogs (I think). It really is funny how perception often is not quite in synch with fact when referencing the steps on the 34-11 cassette compared with the 36-11. The 34-11 obviously is a lot more even between each gear compared with the 36-11, but that 17% difference didn't really seem that odd in practice.

Rowan, we're running a 12-32. I took a 12-13 from another cassette and replaced the 11-12. Of course with our effective 60t large chainring we don't need the 11t cog.

I've been seriously considering going to the 11-36t cog set and looking at the numbers I don't see much of a downside.

Hardest climbs we've done on the Tandem would be Everest challenge. http://www.everestchallenge.com/

And Brasstown Bald ( shorter than the EC climbs, but with sections up to 21% friggin hard.

Gearing for this was an 11-28 cassette with a 26 inner ring.

One key to,climbing in the tandem is being ble to stand and dance with the bike. Necessary to
Ower up super steep selections, and for change of pace on long 1-2 hour climbs.

Beyond that it is team power to weight ratio.

I've been seriously considering going to the 11-36t cog set and looking at the numbers I don't see much of a downside.
Rick, it may cost more $, but Todd set us up with an extra tooth on the freewheel (jackshaft) driven cog, to effectively reduce our overall ratio on the davinci, we do lose top end, it gives us a final of 24-35, wonderful for pulling a bob up these ong hi altitude grades
R&J

We find this climbing stuff really hard at our age, but around CO, we have very few grades above 7% that are paved, our challenge is those long grades at 9000 ft elevation or higher, we (I) can stand, if need be for the short pulls, but staying seated is really mandatory at altitude, one just runs out of oxygen and you beat yourself up standing too much, especially on the tandem. Rest stops are part of the ride! We did do a tandem ride two years ago, and while we were grinding away up a long 6% above tree line, some young buck (and his doe) pulled right by us with a 30-28 gearing, their cadence was slow and he was complaining, but they outdid us!
R&J

Cogsets or cassettes:

11-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-32-36
18% 15% 13% 12% 11% 14% 17% 14% 13%

11-13-15-17-19-21-23-26-30-34
18% 15% 13% 12% 11% 13% 15% 13%

11-12-14-16-18-20-22-25-28-32
18% 15% 14% 13% 11% 10% 14% 12% 14%
...

There is something funky with the last one. They all have the same percentages for the first two gears even though the last one has different gears.

I think you should have made the calculations with 9 speed cassettes instead of 10 speed because the majority of us run 9 speeds (or less) and maybe included the 11-28 that many of us use.

As far as the perceived perceptions versus non-perceived perceptions go, I think a lot of if has to do with what you are used to. I've run the larger cassettes on the Santana we used to ride. Most of the time it was fine but there are times when it was really annoying to be caught between gears. That just means you have to slow down or put more effort out to speed up to get in a more comfortable cadence. I run an 11-28 or 11-25 on my single so the 11-28 on the tandem is just like home.

I much prefer the 12-34 cogset because it splits out the ratios between the 39 and 52 rings in the midrange, giving us more choice upwind and on long slight inclines.

Around here we have brevets ranging from 4500' to 9000' for a 200, 7000' to 18,000' for a 400, and up to 24,000' for a 600. This spring we are attempting to attempt our first 200. We're hoping for something in the lower range. Stoker has what one might call a negative interest in doing anything that would involve riding from dawn into and perhaps through the night. She claims it doesn't sound like fun. Huh. Have done on my single, but not going to happen on the tandem.

I get her point. On my single I was a 7-9 hour guy on a 200 and a 15-19 hour guy on a 400, depending. Our tandem team will be working to stay ahead of the closing times, which is a whole different deal. I don't know if I would have been interested in brevets on my single if that were the case.

We can't stand on the steep stuff - we have to sit. Reason is that we have to be in such a low gear that the bike almost stops every time the pedals hit BDC if we're standing. So we can stand fine on grades up to about 10%, but not greater. Since we climb by HR, our sustainable climbing speed standing is actually lower than our sustainable speed seated, because standing always raises one's HR. The supremely talented don't find that a great objection because they are so far off their redline anyway. "Dancing on the pedals" is not something we'll ever do for more than a few strokes.

Our solution for the steep stuff is to learn to put out power at low rpms by pedaling smooth circles and just keeping the grinding speed constant. "Smooth, smooth" is one of our calls to each other. On long climbs, we try to stand for a few strokes every 10 minutes, by the clock. Gives us something to look forward to, rests the butt, and stretches the legs. On my single I'd hold the stand for about 45 seconds. We're trying to work up to that on the tandem.

.... On long climbs, we try to stand for a few strokes every 10 minutes, by the clock. Gives us something to look forward to, rests the butt, and stretches the legs. On my single I'd hold the stand for about 45 seconds. We're trying to work up to that on the tandem.

We're definitely "sitters" as well. We can stand for short pitches if either the captain puts us in the wrong chainring or we can see the end of the pitch. The problem we have with standing on sustain pitches of say 10% is that there is a tendency to accelerate the bike unless I up shift. Once in a taller gear it's darn tricky to down shift without breaking something.

How do you handle that? If you're on a 10% grade spinning 80, do you up shift to stand or just let your cadence and speed slow to something more reasonable when standing?

We are pretty bad climbers. I'll use age as an excuse as we are 134. We do short steep climbs mostly as that's what we've got here in Ohio. We've done short 18% climbs and tons of not very long 10% climbs. The hardest climb we've done was probably the finish of GTR when it was in Athens (pretty short, but it surprised us). We use a 26 inner and 12x28 around here and an 11x34 when we go to hillier places.

Someone mentioned that the steepest climb in the US was in California at 10 miles and 8.3%. I always thought that the climb up to Mt. Mitchell from Asheville was more than that at 30 miles and 8.5% average and having done that, I wouldn't have thought it would rank that high. I must be mistaken about the numbers.

Frank

Up to 8% is all right for us ... it gets tiring if it is long, but we can kind of settle in and ride it. 8% grades are quite common around here. The hill that starts at our doorstep becomes 8% a couple hundred metres down the road, and we've ridden that several times. It's when they get steeper that they start to become an issue.

We are pretty bad climbers. I'll use age as an excuse as we are 134. We do short steep climbs mostly as that's what we've got here in Ohio. We've done short 18% climbs and tons of not very long 10% climbs. The hardest climb we've done was probably the finish of GTR when it was in Athens (pretty short, but it surprised us). We use a 26 inner and 12x28 around here and an 11x34 when we go to hillier places.

Someone mentioned that the steepest climb in the US was in California at 10 miles and 8.3%. I always thought that the climb up to Mt. Mitchell from Asheville was more than that at 30 miles and 8.5% average and having done that, I wouldn't have thought it would rank that high. I must be mistaken about the numbers.

Frank

We've done Mt michell from Asheville on the Tandem and singles. It's 35 miles of mostly continuous climbing from Asheville, but there's some downhill, and most of that is very gradual.

The spur off the Parkway to Mt Mitchell is steeper with some 8-9% but its not as steep as a number of climbs in the SE including Brasstown.

Our gearing is 53-39-26 with a 12-32 10-speed cassette.

That's a wide range triple!

Your middle ---> outer ring jump is 14t
Your inner ----> middle ring jump is 13t

Which jump is the greater shifting challenge?

I ask, as I have a 53-42-30, and to do the climbing mentioned in the OP, I'd like to use a 28 inner ring. Will the 14t jump from 28 to 42 be too much, and require a smaller middle ring?

A very interesting post. I like the "stoker descent aversion" phrase. :D

We currently run a 26-39-53 in the front and an 11-29 Campy 10 in the rear. Around here there are a couple climbs with several 20%+ pitches which aren't really long but are very hard.

My stoker constantly wants to go faster on descents........

We're definitely "sitters" as well. We can stand for short pitches if either the captain puts us in the wrong chainring or we can see the end of the pitch. The problem we have with standing on sustain pitches of say 10% is that there is a tendency to accelerate the bike unless I up shift. Once in a taller gear it's darn tricky to down shift without breaking something.

How do you handle that? If you're on a 10% grade spinning 80, do you up shift to stand or just let your cadence and speed slow to something more reasonable when standing?On my single, I shift from the granny to the middle ring and then up two more in back. I can't do that on the tandem. Getting from the granny to the middle is tricky and best done on a low incline that can easily be sat in the middle ring. So yes, on the tandem we shift up in back 3-4 cogs, which is a lot on a 12-34. I had to hit the middle ring on the single because I ran a 12-25 or 12-27 in back, so shifting a few cogs didn't do much until I got further over than I want to go.

Looking at the numbers, on my single I might go from 30" to 54" or between a 1.5 and 2 multiplier. So on the tandem I'll go from 21" to 35", which is still dang low to be standing. I can shift fine in the back either way, unless I'm on something so steep that we can't stand anyway. The thing that's kind of tough is that chain tension in a tandem granny ring while standing is quite high. Better have a good chain.

BTW, we're not spinning 80 on a 10% grade even with our extremely low gearing.

I guess my team is really the odd bird here. (Small captain (5'6" 130#) large stoker (6'2"195#), OOP). I sometimes stand for part of steep climbs, but my stoker stays seated almost all the time. (It looks funny to have both riders out of the saddle OOP, but it is easy enough to do.) Our strategy is for him to give it his all and risk blowing up while I climb at a more measured pace. If he is going to blow, we back off and I sort of take control while he regains his legs/lungs. Since he doesn't have to control the bike, it is easier for him to focus his efforts and energy on keeping his output up.

Both of us would rather climb than descend. I like that "stoker descent aversion" phrase as well. I used to be the one calling for more drag brake on descents (stoker controls the drag brake), but this past year my stoker has developed a preference for slower descent speeds. Maybe he just got tired of losing arguments.:innocent:

I guess my team is really the odd bird here. (Small captain (5'6" 130#) large stoker (6'2"195#), OOP). I sometimes stand for part of steep climbs, but my stoker stays seated almost all the time. (It looks funny to have both riders out of the saddle OOP, but it is easy enough to do.) Our strategy is for him to give it his all and risk blowing up while I climb at a more measured pace. If he is going to blow, we back off and I sort of take control while he regains his legs/lungs. Since he doesn't have to control the bike, it is easier for him to focus his efforts and energy on keeping his output up.

Both of us would rather climb than descend. I like that "stoker descent aversion" phrase as well. I used to be the one calling for more drag brake on descents (stoker controls the drag brake), but this past year my stoker has developed a preference for slower descent speeds. Maybe he just got tired of losing arguments.:innocent:

Hey I thought the stoker was always right!:)

That's a wide range triple!

Your middle ---> outer ring jump is 14t
Your inner ----> middle ring jump is 13t

Which jump is the greater shifting challenge?

I ask, as I have a 53-42-30, and to do the climbing mentioned in the OP, I'd like to use a 28 inner ring. Will the 14t jump from 28 to 42 be too much, and require a smaller middle ring?

Our front shifting is helped by the fact that we're using Campy shifters (although with a Shimano FD and SRAM RD), which gives me more control over the FD. Plus, the middle and outer rings are upper-level Shimano models (Ultegra 6603 and Dura Ace 7800, respectively) and so are stiff with good shifting ramps, which helps a lot (and shows just how poor the FSA rings that came stock on the Gossamer crankset are). Because of these factors, neither shift (small to middle or middle to big ring) is a problem for us. We also have a Chain Catcher to make sure that the middle to small ring shift goes smoothly and without losing the chain.

I run a 42-26 combo on my single commuter and touring bike sometimes, but that is too big of a leap to make on the tandem, which is why our middle ring is a 39. I would also say that 42-28 is pushing the limits of what is ideal. When considering what size jumps between rings will work well, think about percentage differences when considering how much the shift will change your cadence, and think about tooth count differences when thinking about derailleur capacity.

If you do decide to switch your middle ring to a 39 to allow you to run a smaller inner ring, then also consider changing your front derailleur. Shimano's triple FDs are either designed for a 13-14 tooth difference between the middle and big rings (this is true for models: Ultegra 6603, Ultegra 6703, Dura Ace 7803, Dura Ace 7703) or for 10-11 tooth differences (most other models). The chain will not line up with the shift ramps on the derailleur if the wrong version is used with the wrong ring combination (it can be made to work, but it is far from ideal). The size of the inner ring is not really important in this regard, most models of FD will perform similarly. The fact that you currently have 53-42-30 rings suggests that you have a 9-speed chain; if that is the case and you want a 13-tooth big-middle difference then the Dura Ace 7703 is the only derailleur that is designed for that with a 9-speed chain, but it is very hard to find one of those now; you could use one of the 10-speed models I listed above, but you will have more chain rub due to the narrower cage width on the 10-speed FDs; the other option would be to also change the big ring at the same time to a 50-tooth version (you would then have FD models 6503, 5503, 4503, 4403 as options for that ring ring combo with a 9-speed setup; the 4503 probably now being the easiest of those to obtain).

One thing that my wife and i do is to alternate standing on the long climbs. I'll sit while she stands and vice versa.

Our front shifting is helped by the fact that we're using Campy shifters (although with a Shimano FD and SRAM RD), which gives me more control over the FD. Plus, the middle and outer rings are upper-level Shimano models (Ultegra 6603 and Dura Ace 7800, respectively) and so are stiff with good shifting ramps, which helps a lot (and shows just how poor the FSA rings that came stock on the Gossamer crankset are). Because of these factors, neither shift (small to middle or middle to big ring) is a problem for us. We also have a Chain Catcher to make sure that the middle to small ring shift goes smoothly and without losing the chain.

I run a 42-26 combo on my single commuter and touring bike sometimes, but that is too big of a leap to make on the tandem, which is why our middle ring is a 39. I would also say that 42-28 is pushing the limits of what is ideal. When considering what size jumps between rings will work well, think about percentage differences when considering how much the shift will change your cadence, and think about tooth count differences when thinking about derailleur capacity.

If you do decide to switch your middle ring to a 39 to allow you to run a smaller inner ring, then also consider changing your front derailleur. Shimano's triple FDs are either designed for a 13-14 tooth difference between the middle and big rings (this is true for models: Ultegra 6603, Ultegra 6703, Dura Ace 7803, Dura Ace 7703) or for 10-11 tooth differences (most other models). The chain will not line up with the shift ramps on the derailleur if the wrong version is used with the wrong ring combination (it can be made to work, but it is far from ideal). The size of the inner ring is not really important in this regard, most models of FD will perform similarly. The fact that you currently have 53-42-30 rings suggests that you have a 9-speed chain; if that is the case and you want a 13-tooth big-middle difference then the Dura Ace 7703 is the only derailleur that is designed for that with a 9-speed chain, but it is very hard to find one of those now; you could use one of the 10-speed models I listed above, but you will have more chain rub due to the narrower cage width on the 10-speed FDs; the other option would be to also change the big ring at the same time to a 50-tooth version (you would then have FD models 6503, 5503, 4503, 4403 as options for that ring ring combo with a 9-speed setup; the 4503 probably now being the easiest of those to obtain).I'm running a 6603 FD with 9-speed on our 26-39-52 rings. Our middle-big shift is perfect. The only shift we have trouble with is that 26-39. The most reliable middle ring that I've tried is the Shimano Ultegra. FSA is POS for sure. If you can make the 26-39 shift on a steep grade you have much better equipment than I do, that's for sure.

My stoker closes her eyes at 42 mph. No problem.

That's a wide range triple!

Your middle ---> outer ring jump is 14t
Your inner ----> middle ring jump is 13t

Which jump is the greater shifting challenge?

I ask, as I have a 53-42-30, and to do the climbing mentioned in the OP, I'd like to use a 28 inner ring. Will the 14t jump from 28 to 42 be too much, and require a smaller middle ring?

We run 54-42-28 and 11-28, 10 speed Ultegra triple fd and rd. It shifts great with FSA ramped and pinned big and middle rings. These are pretty big jumps in gearing but it shifts fine.
I still call out front shifts but not rear shifts and have had no problems since I put the FSA rings on.
I can't cross chain the 28 with the 11 or the 12 in the rear without the derailer pulleys rubbing. I installed a K-edge just for confidence in a panic downshift.
We are fairly new to tandeming. Less than 2000 mi for the captain, without doing anything close to the epic climbs mentioned here. We are still working on our standing technique. Our longest climb was Jubilee/Salsberry out of Death Valley and that was done in the 42.

One thing that my wife and i do is to alternate standing on the long climbs. I'll sit while she stands and vice versa.

This is what we do too. Especially on the long sustained climbs. It gives you a nice stretch without really blowing yourself up. Grades around here are not super steep, mostly around 6-8% with short steeper sections.

As Merlinextraligh says, it's mostly about power to weight ratio. So frequent climbing is key b/c it will make you stronger AND you'll likely shed a few lbs (those are the cheapest ones to get rid of - unlike the new wheel set or carbon stoker stem)!

Hey I thought the stoker was always right!:)
Oh no. We have a democracy. Each X chromosome gets a vote.

Hi,

My wife and I are heading to Europe this summer and plan to ride around the Alps: From Prague down to Austria, west through Austria and Switzerland, down to Bourg St. Maurice, east through Italy and back up into Austria. Concern I have is whether we'll be able to do all the climbs on our Tandem with a trailer. Any thoughts? /Doug

Hi,

My wife and I are heading to Europe this summer and plan to ride around the Alps: From Prague down to Austria, west through Austria and Switzerland, down to Bourg St. Maurice, east through Italy and back up into Austria. Concern I have is whether we'll be able to do all the climbs on our Tandem with a trailer. Any thoughts? /Doug

Have you ridden up some relatively long, steep hills with your tandem with a trailer yet? How did that go?

If you haven't climbed with the tandem much, and especially if you haven't climbed towing a full trailer, I'd suggest you get out there and do it as soon as possible.

I find climbing with single bicycle and climbing with the tandem to be two very different experiences. For example, we did the 7 Peaks Alpine Ascent Challenge here this past summer on our singles. It was tough for me on my single, but I did a lot better than I ever imagined I would. However, there's no way I would have wanted to try that on the tandem.

I'm running a 6603 FD with 9-speed on our 26-39-52 rings. Our middle-big shift is perfect. The only shift we have trouble with is that 26-39. The most reliable middle ring that I've tried is the Shimano Ultegra. FSA is POS for sure. If you can make the 26-39 shift on a steep grade you have much better equipment than I do, that's for sure.

My stoker closes her eyes at 42 mph. No problem.

Hmm - i've run nothing but FSA rings - 30-42-54 at first then 28-42-54 and now 26-39-53 - the first two combos were with a 9 speed 11-34 rear cluster and an XTR, then a DiVinci modified X9 and the latter with our 11-29 Campy 10 Record Long cage setup. That's with an older Dura Ace FD and Campy Record Ergo 10 shifters - at first with a 9 speed Shimano chain and now with a 10 speed Campy chain. No problem shifting any of the rings - ever. Crisp quick clean shifts every time.

Hmm - i've run nothing but FSA rings - 30-42-54 at first then 28-42-54 and now 26-39-53 - the first two combos were with a 9 speed 11-34 rear cluster and an XTR, then a DiVinci modified X9 and the latter with our 11-29 Campy 10 Record Long cage setup. That's with an older Dura Ace FD and Campy Record Ergo 10 shifters - at first with a 9 speed Shimano chain and now with a 10 speed Campy chain. No problem shifting any of the rings - ever. Crisp quick clean shifts every time.The chain-lifter pins broke off our FSA 39T in about 2000 miles, and it never shifted well even when new. Those same pins on the 52T stick out too far and, when new, kept us from using the middle ring with our top two cogs, although they've now worn enough that we're only locked out of the top cog. 9-speed Ultegra chain. So maybe I'll be replacing the big ring soon, too.

I never had any trouble with the Race Face which was OEM, I just didn't like the crank lengths and ring sizes I had. I switched to the FSAs because I wanted to try the Gates setup. Which was a complete failure for us anyway. The FSA cranks themselves are OK, just the bearings only lasted one year and the middle ring only a few months. I had our LBS R&R the bearings, but when these go I'm switching to Phil Wood bearings.

We may be harder on our equipment than some. We do group rides in our PNW hills year-round, so the bike sometimes looks like we've been cyclocross racing it.

We rode the 70 mile route of the Horrible Hundred this weekend. Amazingly hilly for Florida, with approximately 4,500 vertical in 70 miles. ( depending on what GPS file you believe.

Made it up Sugarloaf in the middle ring. It's very short, but double digit steep.

The chain-lifter pins broke off our FSA 39T in about 2000 miles, and it never shifted well even when new. Those same pins on the 52T stick out too far and, when new, kept us from using the middle ring with our top two cogs, although they've now worn enough that we're only locked out of the top cog. 9-speed Ultegra chain. So maybe I'll be replacing the big ring soon, too.

I never had any trouble with the Race Face which was OEM, I just didn't like the crank lengths and ring sizes I had. I switched to the FSAs because I wanted to try the Gates setup. Which was a complete failure for us anyway. The FSA cranks themselves are OK, just the bearings only lasted one year and the middle ring only a few months. I had our LBS R&R the bearings, but when these go I'm switching to Phil Wood bearings.

We may be harder on our equipment than some. We do group rides in our PNW hills year-round, so the bike sometimes looks like we've been cyclocross racing it.

We rode the Ward/Lyons loop out of Boulder yesterday. I continue to be underwhelmed by the FSA rings in both up and down shifting. I don't try to shift up front while standing. We stand probably a lot more than most tandem teams. We have the 52/39/30 triple. I have played around withe front derailleur trying to improve the front shifting but still just OK. I had better shifting with the Race Face too, but those are going on the new mtb tandem when it arrives.

I had better shifting with the Race Face too, but those are going on the new mtb tandem when it arrives.

What off-road tandem did you buy?

PK

We really stink at hill climbing, and it's going to get worse this summer when we move to Seattle. We're improving steadily, but for now bike+riders=500 pounds. I can stand briefly but she can't. I stand when there's a short hill and I want to maintain some speed over the top, but only if I know I'll have some time to recover.

From a technique perspective, I try to pick the correct ring before getting on the hill, try to manage shifting to keep our cadence in our preferred zone, and manage heart rate to not blow a gasket.

From a technology perspective, we're learning to use our power meters to limit our effort to a power we can sustain for the length of the hill. We've added two of the CycleOps Joule computers, which allow us to review our 30-second peak power, 2-minute, 4-minute, and other increments. This allows us to know our abilities and throttle intelligently on the hills. When we're ready, I hope we'll swap Garmins front/rear, so I can see my HR/power on my Joule and her HR/power on "her" Garmin; likewise, she can see her HR/power on her Joule and my HR/power on "my" Garmin. That'll allow us to coach each other (she starts breathing hard early on some hills which makes me nervous; I can't always look down when steering up a slow hill) and hopefully extend the improvements.

We really stink at hill climbing, and it's going to get worse this summer when we move to Seattle. We're improving steadily, but for now bike+riders=500 pounds. I can stand briefly but she can't. I stand when there's a short hill and I want to maintain some speed over the top, but only if I know I'll have some time to recover.

From a technique perspective, I try to pick the correct ring before getting on the hill, try to manage shifting to keep our cadence in our preferred zone, and manage heart rate to not blow a gasket.

From a technology perspective, we're learning to use our power meters to limit our effort to a power we can sustain for the length of the hill. We've added two of the CycleOps Joule computers, which allow us to review our 30-second peak power, 2-minute, 4-minute, and other increments. This allows us to know our abilities and throttle intelligently on the hills. When we're ready, I hope we'll swap Garmins front/rear, so I can see my HR/power on my Joule and her HR/power on "her" Garmin; likewise, she can see her HR/power on her Joule and my HR/power on "my" Garmin. That'll allow us to coach each other (she starts breathing hard early on some hills which makes me nervous; I can't always look down when steering up a slow hill) and hopefully extend the improvements.
One thing to try. Make sure you know before you hit the bottom of the hill what ring you want to be in. Make sure you are in that ring but don't worry so much about the rear cogs right away. When you hit the bottom of the hill don't immediately shift to the cog you figure you will take the hill in. Keep an Eye on your cadence. Every time it drops below 80 downshift 1 in the rear until you can hold your cadance. This will help you to not over work yourselves while also using the momentum of the tandem as much as possible at the bottom of the hill.

Our gearing is 53-42-30, with a 12-29 cassette.
The steepest significant segment we've done is Redwood Gulch (http://app.strava.com/rides/177517#35311869) (we only had a 27 cog then), 1.2 miles, 10.8% average grade.

Is that Strava correct? at about the .25 mark, it starts reading 19 - 21 % grade. WTF?!

Is that Strava correct? at about the .25 mark, it starts reading 19 - 21 % grade. WTF?!

Its.... twoo! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9JqbCH4aVw&feature=fvsr)



Redwood Gulch Road, Saratoga (http://graphics.stanford.edu/~lucasp/grade/redwoodgulch.html)

Statistics:

Max. grade: 18% (21% inside sharp right turn)
Main climb:
Avg. grade: 9.7% (elev. gain/dist)
Length: 1.35 miles (2.17 km)
Elev. gain: 690 feet (210 m)
Entire profile:
Avg. grade: 9.3%
Length: 1.43 miles (2.30 km)
Climb: 690 feet (210 m)
Descent: 10 feet (3 m)
Description:

Redwood Gulch climbs from Stevens Canyon up to highway 9, mostly under the cover of tall redwoods and other trees. The initial 7% grades, gorgeous scenery, and low traffic may lull you into a serene peace, before the brutal 17+% grades wake you from your dreams...

0.27..... 17% ..... 940 approaching sharp right turn
0.28 ..... 21% ..... 960 sharp right turn -- 13% on outside
0.30 ..... 17% ..... 970 beyond right turn -- steady grade
0.33 ..... 18% ..... 990 approaching left turn -- tire slipping!


As did many, we had signed up for the Sequoia Century without really thinking about this stretch. It came as quite a shock. The key was to rest and recover on the mere 11% grade sections, so there would be something extra at >15% to keep from falling over.

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2040/1849158619_d71e44de69.jpg

This is characteristic of cycling in the Bay Area. You'll be doing a simple little ride, and all of a sudden you find you are at 15%, and in a veritable death struggle. Any team around here with just a double is probably scrutinizing their proposed rides pretty closely.

One thing to try. Make sure you know before you hit the bottom of the hill what ring you want to be in. Make sure you are in that ring but don't worry so much about the rear cogs right away. When you hit the bottom of the hill don't immediately shift to the cog you figure you will take the hill in. Keep an Eye on your cadence. Every time it drops below 80 downshift 1 in the rear until you can hold your cadance. This will help you to not over work yourselves while also using the momentum of the tandem as much as possible at the bottom of the hill.
Changing to the smaller front ring early is excellent advice, but I might add that until you do start to climb the slope, it might be a good idea to do a double front and rear shift -- shift to the smaller ring, and shift down a smaller cog or two on the rear. That way you can maintain your cadence without suddenly having to ride with no resistance and slow the speed of the bike until it catches up with your pedals.

We did our first organized ride, the Chico Velo Wildflower 100K, with our 12-36t cassette. The only real climb was a 4.5 mile, 1400' hill, not too much of an average grade, but some steep pitches. The 36t is going to be a lifesaver for us in combination with our 24t chain ring; good for those short 12+% pitches and for a break on sustained longer climbs.

The San Francisco Bay area is full of rides where one minute you're on flat ground, turn a corner and up comes a short neighborhood 15% "bump" to kick you in the butt. Sometimes you've got to shift fast. What I like most about the Campy Ergo shifters is the ability to shift so many cogs up/down in situations like that. From our experience there is nothing worse than getting into the teeth of a pitch in the wrong gear just killing yourself to get to a relative flat.

I've have a vague memory of being young once and can imagine riding a tandem with a double; heck, in my relative youth, say as a 40 y/o, I could run up any of these hills faster than we climb on the tandem, but it's not about how fast you get there, but rather about getting there.

What off-road tandem did you buy?

PK

Same as the one you are selling, just smaller size!

We rode the 70 mile route of the Horrible Hundred this weekend. Amazingly hilly for Florida, with approximately 4,500 vertical in 70 miles. ( depending on what GPS file you believe.

Made it up Sugarloaf in the middle ring. It's very short, but double digit steep.

I am way impressed. I've been up Sugarloaf twice on a single. First attempt I stopped twice (lost rpm & couldn't downshift off my middle ring, and 20yds later, I sheared off the back of my Look cleat). Second time (no stops) on my carbon single (compact 10 w/ 12-23 gears), I barely made it up, riding my last gear for the last 100yds.

FYI, Mt. Sugarloaf is the second highest natural point in FL. About 3/4 of a mile @ 18-23% straight up (no switchbacks).

We have use 53/39/30 and an 11/28 10sp on the rear. We used to use an 11/34. We did a Santana Mallorca, Spain Tour a couple of years ago and used the 11/28 and most of the time on the climbs we were in the 24. There are some long climbs on Mallorca but in general not real steep. For most of the flat to rolling in the bay area, I prefer an 11/23.

We did the Santana Tour of Tuscany with the 11/28. There was another couple who we met and ultimately rode with most of the tour that showed up with a 53/42 with a 12/25 on the rear. They did fine with the combination other than our cadence was faster than theirs on the climbs. It was not classic gearing but worked for them. We are about the same age.

I do not think there is a right or wrong answer. It is whatever works for the team and experimentation may be worthwhile.

Its.... twoo! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9JqbCH4aVw&feature=fvsr)
This is characteristic of cycling in the Bay Area. You'll be doing a simple little ride, and all of a sudden you find you are at 15%, and in a veritable death struggle. Any team around here with just a double is probably scrutinizing their proposed rides pretty closely.

First off, I want to thank you for that clip, I LOVE blazing saddles! I've ridden on the oakland/berkeley (http://app.strava.com/rides/7263838) side of the bay, but only on singles, so that totally changes my view of the experience. I ride my tandem with my wife on a cross trail (http://app.strava.com/rides/7409801) in Portland, but that's at a much more pedestrian grade.