Bicycle Mechanics - Brass washers for spoke head

Well im considering building another set of wheels, i had a good time the last itme i built one so i would like to give it a go again, amybe with higher quality parts. I ordered Gerd schraners book a while back and the part about the brass washers is interesting. Has anybody done this? And what about tying and soldering, i like to hear this stuff from different sources so any comments are welcome. ANd where do you buy those washers they seem to not be readily available

I don't see any reason to use washers. Never seen a wheel with them.

Jobst Brandt claims that tying and sodering spokes is only good to keep a broken spoke from flailing about. It does nothing for the stiffness of the wheel.

I don't see any reason to use washers. Never seen a wheel with them.


I got a set built by a to end shop. First I've ever seen.

when i first started building wheels, i asked a 20-year wheelbuilding veteran about washers. his response was basically if you're using them, you're trying to compensate for faults in either the products or your skills. the only time i can forsee their use is maybe in hubs with oversized spoke holes (eg, sturmey or atom drum hubs), where the excessive play will accelarate fatigue.

aside from being spiral-bound (why aren't more technical books done this way?), i was not overly impressed with schraner's book.

Washers were used in the past for wheels that had no ferrules pressed into the rims spoke holes and that were thin aluminum extrusions. Most of the highest quality rims today have ferrules pressed into the spoke holes. The lower quality rims, such as a Mavic CXP21, are thicker at the spoke hole to compensate for the lack of ferrules. If you tension the spokes to the rim manufacturer's recommended tension settings, you should have no problems with the rim developing stress cracks at the spoke holes. If you over tighten them, then you run the risk of stress failure at the spoke holes in time.

Tying and soldering spokes is for the purpose of keeping broken spokes from flailing around when a spoke breaks. It has traditionally been used in competition where a wheel may have to be ridden for quite some distance with a broken spoke. This is clearly spelled out by John Barnett in the Barnetts Manual.

Washers were used in the past for wheels that had no ferrules pressed into the rims spoke holes and that were thin aluminum extrusions. Most of the highest quality rims today have ferrules pressed into the spoke holes. The lower quality rims, such as a Mavic CXP21, are thicker at the spoke hole to compensate for the lack of ferrules. If you tension the spokes to the rim manufacturer's recommended tension settings, you should have no problems with the rim developing stress cracks at the spoke holes. If you over tighten them, then you run the risk of stress failure at the spoke holes in time.

Wheels I have use the washers under the spoke heads at the hub flange. Chorus hubs,cxp33 rims.

Wheels I have use the washers under the spoke heads at the hub flange. Chorus hubs,cxp33 rims.

PeterWhite is recommending this on his website for hubs built with spokes that have a longer hooked end or elbow end to avoid spoke flex/movement in the spoke hole and extend spoke life. Apparently DT started making some spokes with a longer section after the elbow to facilitate easier wheel building and the use of washers compensates for the slop.

While DT makes a fine product, I think Wheelsmith makes better spokes and nipples, and using WS spokes should eliminate the need for washers.

Of course DT says washers are not needed anyway. Whatever.

www.peterwhitecycles.com/DTspokes.htm

PeterWhite is recommending this on his website for hubs built with spokes that have a longer hooked end or elbow end to avoid spoke flex/movement in the spoke hole and extend spoke life. Apparently DT started making some spokes with a longer section after the elbow to facilitate easier wheel building and the use of washers compensates for the slop.

While DT makes a fine product, I think Wheelsmith makes better spokes and nipples, and using WS spokes should eliminate the need for washers.

Of course DT says washers are not needed anyway. Whatever.

www.peterwhitecycles.com/DTspokes.htmYeah, these are a recent build with DTs.

I concur with the comments on tied and soldered spokes; it is useful only to prevent broken spokes from flailing about and to generate discussion.

Steel washers used to be used under the spoke heads, on rims without ferrules or sockets, as a hard bearing surface to distribute the spoke load and facilitate turning the nipple. A nipple would gouge an aluminum rim without washers, ferrules or sockets. This made it harder to turn the nipple and it could flare the hole, relieving the tension or eventually pulling through. I have not read Schraner's book, but due the relatively soft nature and lubricating properties of brass, I suspect it is primarily to facilitate the tensioning process by making the nipples easier to turn.

As Don D. states, modern aluminum rims without ferrules or sockets have thicker walls at the holes to eliminate the need for washers. However, I disagree that proper tensioning will eliminate stress cracks. Modern rims are more susceptible to stress cracks by virtue of the hard anodizing. The surface is very brittle and often develops micro-cracks during the rim manufacturing operations. During the cyclic loading of a wheel, these cracks will eventually propogate into the base aluminum and cause visible stress cracks. How long it takes will depend on a number of factors, such as your weight, mileage, road conditions, etc.

Thanks for the responses folks, i am plannong on building another wheelset at some point, it isnt that im unhappy with what i have. I just had a good time last time so why not try it again :). I dont think i will bother with washers, maybe i will give Wheelsmith a try, I need something that can stand up to disc brakes

I concur with the comments on tied and soldered spokes; it is useful only to prevent broken spokes from flailing about and to generate discussion.

Steel washers used to be used under the spoke heads, on rims without ferrules or sockets, as a hard bearing surface to distribute the spoke load and facilitate turning the nipple. A nipple would gouge an aluminum rim without washers, ferrules or sockets. This made it harder to turn the nipple and it could flare the hole, relieving the tension or eventually pulling through. I have not read Schraner's book, but due the relatively soft nature and lubricating properties of brass, I suspect it is primarily to facilitate the tensioning process by making the nipples easier to turn.

As Don D. states, modern aluminum rims without ferrules or sockets have thicker walls at the holes to eliminate the need for washers. However, I disagree that proper tensioning will eliminate stress cracks. Modern rims are more susceptible to stress cracks by virtue of the hard anodizing. The surface is very brittle and often develops micro-cracks during the rim manufacturing operations. During the cyclic loading of a wheel, these cracks will eventually propogate into the base aluminum and cause visible stress cracks. How long it takes will depend on a number of factors, such as your weight, mileage, road conditions, etc.

it sounds like you are talking about spoke NIPPLE washers. his question has do with spoke HEAD washers, the little brass dudes that go between the spoke head and hub flange. has nothing to do with rims.

ill put in my 2 cents on spoke head washers-- use them with 15gauge spokes, or on hubs with thin flanges and no depression for the spoke head, or when there is a lot of play due to oversize spoke holes.

I use the spoke washers on old hubs that have been built up a couple of times, it gives the head a smoother spot to sit on and, it seems to me, gives a more consistent build as you tension/true/round.