Touring - Italy or France

I was starting to look into the possibilities of riding in France next summer for a month...Provance, Paris, Riviera, and ...cautiously optimistic Alp du Huez....

I was recently informed by a fairly knowledgable friend that there have been several incidents of Anti Semitism...does anyone know if this is true?

My other option is Italy to ride Tuscany, Florence, or an organized cross country ride.

Does anyone have any information, or Suggestions?

SR

Ride Italy and do it on your own. You really don't need an organized tour for Italy. You just need good maps of the region.

I know nothing about France. People say the french outside of Paris can be nice to Americans, but I've heard the opposite from others. Why bother at all, when there's another country where no matter where you're from or what your religion, you won't have problems traveling the region? Italy would be my first choice always.

Koffee

Ride Italy and do it on your own. You really don't need an organized tour for Italy. You just need good maps of the region.

I know nothing about France. People say the french outside of Paris can be nice to Americans, but I've heard the opposite from others. Why bother at all, when there's another country where no matter where you're from or what your religion, you won't have problems traveling the region? Italy would be my first choice always.

Koffee

I have traveled in both countries alot. The French love cyclists...that they will see when you travel in the nation, and i think your experiences will be uniformly positive. In France, every garage is a bike shop.

Italy is nice also but can be extremely hot in the summer if you go to the south. One problem with Italy is the consistent poor quality of their roadways, which gets very annoying. It is also more slovenly in its Alpine regions than the other countries (Germany, Switz, Austria, France). Still..if you have never seen the Dolomites glow brandywine pink in the late evening sun, you are missing something!

Good maps are essential, as there are many overlapping routes and it helps to loop through the mountain regions so thatyou see all the various peaks and ranges to their fullest extent.

roughstuff

Totally unfair to judge France or any place solely on what one "hears"

I spent sev weeks there past summer and the experiences were "knock the sox off"
favorable

Paris to the contrary is fun to ride in sure there is traffic but cars are all over Europe, just be careful there as elsewhere

Even the sev times in the country I got lost were nice experiences. and in Paris my first afternoon when I couldn't find my hotel a cab driver led me there, wished me well on my trip

Go, smile a lot, enjoy the food, the sights, and if it rains use your rain gear and remember its only water and dries fast

I'm returning next year for 4 months. Italy, Spain, Portugal, Germany, Czech Rep.

France is fabulous for cycling. Cyclists and bikes are everywhere and welcome everywhere. You would do well to try out regions other than Provence and the Riviera, however, especially during the summer, because of the huge influx of tourists.

Look at the areas around Bordeaux, Dordogne, Charentes-Maritimes, Angouleme, and Brittany. If you want mountains, the Alpes have them, but so do the Jura, Pyranees, and Brittany (center west).

Joe Bell was telling me about how Andy Hampsten and Bill Holland drug him along on a tour of the Tuscany region of Italy. Said it was an unforgetable experiance, and was great cycling. With Andy being the "guide" they were treated like royalty everywhere they went. He was saying the Tuscany area is one of the most beautiful places to go cycling. After hearing his account, that would be my choice. Although I do want to time myself up Alp du Huez or Vonteux. :)

Thank you so much for the reassuring words....I dont tend to judge folks on hearsay, but was concerned about traveling with my lady. From the sounds of things we might just have to split the trip and do BOTH a bit of France, and Italy...

once again thankyou

Stever

Definitely spend some time cycling Italy. I am telling you, it's great stuff. Italy and Switzerland has some of the best scenic views... I've almost fallen off my bike while riding and trying to take everything in. The sights are spectacular, and despite what people say about the roads, I think the roads are fabulous. I come from Chicago where potholes, cracks, and crevices are common. It makes anything in Italy look better than the worst Chicago city street, which can be teeth chattering.

I'm back in Italy again myself this summer. I will probably head up into Switzerland and into Vienna maybe.

Koffee

As a cycle tourist you are very very unlikey to across antisemistism, this is really something that affects people living in big city communities and is usually directed expressed as grafitti or vandalism. Dont worry about it.
A bicycle will make you into an honorary Frenchman, and I can recomend the Alpine area around Grenoble. Avoid the road on the main August holiday travel days. May/June is a good time to visit.

Just as in every other country in the world, there are going to be those who find a particular religion troubling. France has its share of anti-Semites just as the US does. That said, the industrial regions of NE France, Marseilles, les Banlieus de Paris and of other big cities are probably the places to avoid and not strictly because of anti-semitism. You won't have a problem as a tourist unless you wear your religion on your sleeve.

I've found that cyclists get a lot of respect in France, much more than in the US anyway. Rural France is much more welcoming than is urban France but the same can be said for the US. I too would advise not doing the Riviera on a bike. It is packed with No. Europeans in the their cars in the summer and Provence might not be the best place either. The Rhine and Rhone valleys are great!

I've not been to Italy so can't advise on the differences. I am planning a trip through Croatia, maybe, this summer. Anyone been there?

To Koffee B

When traveling, do you stay in BnBs? That solves the prob of bike safety at nite

During the day if visiting a museum etc, etc, what do you do to protect your bike and

bags if they are with you? Just lock a bike to rack or tree or lampost?

The folks I've been incontact with and who do camping tell me they leave panniers in

tents during the day at campgrounds, any comment?

Naturally I wouldn't leave anything of value in the tent

BTW like your choice of icon, hats of to THAT lady

Hi,
it's all good. You just need to be careful. Here's my thought, fly into Paris or Vienna. Bike into Italy. Since you have a whole month,
enjoy the city for a couple days, play the tourista while you recover from jet lag. If you start in Paris, you can enjoy Southern France, and then on into Italy. You could opt for a more diverse, and strenous, trip by going through Switzerland, Austria, and then Italy. That one would be nice. You could go to Salzburg (Augustinerkeller!) and then follow the Danube into Vienna. Set a day or two aside for Vienna. I loved Vienna. Then you would be well positioned to ride to Venice, and then across Italy. There are some tough choices as to which parts of Italy to visit, even with a month to play. There are many more possible itineraries, like flying into the BeneLux, or even Denmark. Might make more sense to reverse
the progression, and start in Italy, and ride north if you are starting in the middle of the summer.

I carry strong locks with me, and at nights, I lock my bike to something sturdy if I'm staying at a campground. If I'm staying at a hotel or hostel, I ask for a secure place to leave my bike, then I lock the bike up, even if they tell me it's secure. If I'm just running into a store for a few minutes on a break from riding, I have all my panniers, I just bungee cord the panniers really well to the rack and lock up the bike. But if I'm stopped at a restaurant and I eat outside, or if I'm in a very crowded place, I just make sure my panniers are secured shut with those small luggage locks, and I walk. God bless the thief that can handle all that gear and ride away faster than I can run back if they try to steal my bike! So far, I've only had a makeup case stolen with some chanel lipstick, but since I'm not into makeup, it was no big loss.... more amusing than anything that some nasty person stole my makeup bag and wants to use my lipstick. I think I even had fever blisters. Yuck!

I've stayed in everything from 5 star hotels to campgrounds in a tent in the middle of a thunderstorm. I've even slept on a train platform. If you are riding in the summer, just realize it's prime travel season, and you may have problems with accomodations. That's what I carry the tent for.

If you fly into Milan, you can ride north from Milan into Como, then from Como, ride into Lugano, Switzerland. Switzerland has great trails everywhere and cycling is so common and accepted there. From Lugano, you can ride through Switzerland into the Alps and come out into France. I'm not sure if you could do it all in a month, but maybe.... you'd be in for some tough riding, lots of hills and mountains.... but if you try hard, I think you could do it.

Koffee

One region I would suggest you avoid in BOTH countries is the Riviera. Along most of the French Riviera, there is simply too much traffic, esp. in summer, for enjoyable cycling, IMHO. The Italian Riviera was even worse. The coast from Genoa to the French border is completely built up. Inland Provence was much more pleasant on a bike than the Cote d'Azur.

I admit that I am partial to cycling in France, but this may be influenced by the fact that I speak French well, but don't really speak Italian--though I'm able to converse poorly. Having said that, Italians don't expect tourists to be able to speak Italian. But trying to be objective concerning your original question, I've found that most of France (the Riviera being an exception) has a wonderful network of secondary roads with very little traffic. I found that this was not as true in Italy, in part because it's a much more mountainous country and there are simply fewer roads in mountainous areas.

I've biked a fair amount in Provence & the Alps and enjoyed it. I have to say, however, that my very favorite region for bike touring, not just in France, but in the entire world, is the area in SW France near the Lot, Cele, & Dordogne River valleys. Gorgeous scenery, wonderfully quiet roads, lovely medievals villages and towns, and a wealth of interesting sights including many castles and caves that are open to the public. Also, some of the best cooking in France, and that is saying something. But, you'll certainly eat well in Italy, too.

And if you end up in SW France, it's a short hop on a train or a few days on a bike to reach the Pyrenees and the delights of the Col du Tourmalet, which I rode up once. Since Alpe d'Huez interests you, the Tourmalet might, too. As for l'Alpe d'Huez, the road starts from the western side of the Col du Lautaret road. The ride from Briancon up the Lautaret isn't too difficult, and the descent toward Grenoble and the turnoff for l'Alpe d'Huez is superb; lovely scenery, gentle, long descent with little braking required, until you reach the built-up outskirts of Grenoble.

If you go riding in Provence, you might want to visit the historic synagogues in Carpentras, Cavaillon, & Avignon.

sr

Hi

I've ridden in france the last 8 years, plus just spent 3 weeks in italy. In all my travels the last 10 years there, I have never heard of any problems. both countries are fine and you should have no problems. maybe in a large city, but in riral france and italy you wil have no problems, people ae great

pat

to blauger:
A trip through Croatia? Well, I've benn there several times, but unfortunatelly whitout my bike. What would you like to know? Where would you like to go? To the coast? That part I know.
agi

to blauger:
A trip through Croatia? Well, I've benn there several times, but unfortunatelly whitout my bike. What would you like to know? Where would you like to go? To the coast? That part I know.
agi

I plan on starting in Germany, Gdansk, Warsaw, Krakow, The Tatras, Kosice, Budapest, and then on to Croatia. I'm not sure if I want to ride through NE Croatia, but want to spend a few days in Zagreb then on to the coast and down to Dubrovnik, maybe with the ferry and then back up to Slovenia. I'd like to spend part of August and September in Croatia, I know August is the busiest time and maybe not the best for cycling but figure that September will be the best time.

How are the roads? Do they have a shoulder/verge? Guardrails along the mountainous roads? I've read a little bit in Trento Bike Pages but still don't have a good idea about cycling conditions.

Any help is appreciated!

You want to come to Hungary? I live in Budapest. The roads are terrible in the whole country, so don't be afraid of Croatia. The roads are narrow in the hills, and there aren't everywhere guardrails. (I mean in Croatia)
I1m also going to ride in Slovenia in August.
Ági

I have biked in Italy, Spain, France...France is my favorite...No snobby French Have i ever experienced...In fact, the number of times I was the recipient of act of kindness' is all I have to report...My California jersey got me invited into French homes on a couple of ocassions...The French farmers are the salt of the earth...
One example..We were lost in the Loire region...Ran into a elementary school teacher who spoke little English... She took us to her home...Woke up her son who spoke excellant English..The kicker...He worked PM shift and she woke him up at like 10 AM...Gave us excellant directions.
Another example..We got a parking ticket in Bandol..Told of our problem to a teller at a bank...She closed down here window with her boss' permission..
Walked us over the the tabac where you can purchase tax vouchers for tickets and helped us throught the process of paying our fine..Real stories...Honest ..
My favorite region of France....Provence..We stayed near Apt . Awesome country.>Climb the easiest approach to Mt. Ventoux from the east during the season when the Lavender is in bloom..Awesome..When you get to the top, eat some Lavender Ice cream...
ALso Burgundy is great cycling...
As to Italy..The parts I experienced...Traffic and roads were awful..I am told Tuscany is the best cycling...Did not make it that far south..Rode about Lake Como...Francophiles here...Good luck..Just hope the pastry shops won't slow you down, like it did my group.

Its so very, very nice to hear the good news for a change, and great positive experiences.
Being a cyclist and being the recipient of so many acts of kindness really is the reward for the rain, or the face on wind, or the LONG uphills
I have to pass just a couple of my experiences last summer
Did France first, went to the Normandy invasion beaches, stunning in its scenery, frightening seeing those horrible stretches of beaches
I then rode towards Blois to see my 3 fav chateau
On the way stopped one afternoon to eat in a little cafe in a name forgotten village;
Leaned my loaded bike against the stone wall and walked into the courtyard,the owner seated me and returned with a plate of bagette and flavored olive oil, to take my order, told me my choice of salmon was excellent as it was swimming at 4 AM that morning in the Atlantic. Asked me if I was an American. I said yes, and he said welcome to his family's inn.
He returned shortly with 2 glasses of wine, Champagne actually, and asked if I would stand and join him in a toast, so I did. And he said. "this is a thank you to all the Americans who have given their sons and daughters, over the decades to help France when it was needed, and to the vast amount of national treasure, your country has sent to us after the wars. We do not forget. When you return to America and hear someone speak ill of France and the French, tell them that we are French, we are grateful, but we are different.
We drank the wine and then he gave me the traditional kiss on both cheeks. There were a number of others eating at the time, and there was a bit of hand clapping when he was finished. And, I'm not ashamed to say, tears in my eyes. I thanked him and had a fine salmon lunch

I spent a very very brief time in NW Italy, Val D'Osta, fantastic mountains, nice nice people.
I hiked 2 days and then thought I'd like to do a bit of low level climbing, so I asked around for info to a local guide; found a shop owner whose son did guiding. Agreed to a price, located some equipment for me to use, and we went for 4 beautiful days. Absolute heaven. And he correctly recognized that I could go higher than I had originally thought I would go. So we went. At nite in the huts we talked and talked for hours, and became good friends.
When we came down and I wanted to settle my bill, he said, NO,NO, NO, I never charge my friends and you are my friend. Totally blew me away.I'll go back this year, find him and do more climbing

I always judge a place by my experiences, always enjoy wherever I travel, and always look at the positive side, Rarely if ever disappointed

I recall another incident...Some wine bar in Provence...The guitarist played Old McDonald in the Americans honor.

I have spent 10 days cycling in the Normandy region of France, in the north. It's beautiful, very rural country. You can ride from small town to small town and always find delicious food, fresh bread, friendly people, and a bike shop. The people there, having been through D-day (or have parents that have!), really like Americans. The roads are decent and what traffic there is on the major roads can be friendly to cyclists. I was with several people and even though none of us spoke French, occasionally a french cyclist would join us for a few miles, just to ride with our group. We stayed in a old farmhouse and would ride out in a different direction every day. No matter where you go, I suggest a map-capable GPS unit instead of carring paper maps. You can see where you're going on the fly and I find I relax more not having to worry about where I am, where I'm going, or how to get back. Search the forums for "gps" - most people I know use either Garmin or Magellan brand and both work amazingly well.

I did a half circuit of Slovenia this Sept. The Italian border area is full of Italian roadies who come over for the fine mountain passes and cheaper food. I can recomend the whole country for exploration. If you are passing through on your way to somewhere else take some time to enjoy the area.

Why not ride the International Eurovelo route 8, which connects France and Italy? It connects the south of Spain to the Balkans.

No matter where you go, I suggest a map-capable GPS unit instead of carring paper maps. You can see where you're going on the fly and I find I relax more not having to worry about where I am, where I'm going, or how to get back. Search the forums for "gps" - most people I know use either Garmin or Magellan brand and both work amazingly well.

Amen..

The GPS is a god-send and todays units that come with maps make it a no-brainer. Even if the unit has a poor map, it's still workable because it will give you an outline of the area and a much better direction of where you're going.

I was reading threads about how people were lost while looking for their hotel. Hotels are easy to locate with a GPS because they have a street address that can be set with a simple "way point" in the unit. The problem with maps is they tend to be unreliable. Even the GPS map can be outdated but different routes can be selected or created on the fly if you're headed in the right direction. This technology is cheap and getting better all the time.

Does the GPS have the option to remove freeway and highway directions? Because if I'm going a long distance (like Milan to Brescia), I wouldn't want autostrada directions.

Koffee

Personally, I wouldn't want to use a GPS system, particularly in France where there are superb maps available. I love the IGN (Institut Geographique National) 1:100,000 series. The level of detail is fantastic, and there are symbols which indicate everything from castles, caves, ruins, vineyards, to much more. Also, terrain and altitude are important considerations when biking, not just getting from point A to point B, or reaching a specific address. One of the joys for me is peering over a detailed map, both before my trip and during my trip, to select a scenic and interesting route over lightly-travelled roads. Outside of the Alps & Pyrenees in France, there is a great network of minor roads to choose from. One thing which I have definitely learned over the years is how to select great roads and villages to pass thru, and I think the routes I select are pretty damn nice, if I do say so myself. I don't see how a GPS system could take into account all of these factors.

In France, I've most often toured in June or September and I've never bothered with reserving rooms, and I've never had a problem finding a good one. I prefer the flexibility that comes with not having to be at a specific location each night. Bad weather can also hamper plans sometimes. I realize some folks prefer to know they've got a bed waiting for them at the end of each day, though. Anyway, my deux centimes.

I live in the UK but lived in France for many years

Comments

1 France over Italy for space, road manners to cyclists etc
2 Anti-semitism - not to my knowledge. The French can be fairly racist, but that tends to be directed to their ex-colonial immigrants (mainly north Africans and therefore 95% muslim). To be honest even if you are an American of obviously Muslim or Jewish appearance they will see you as an American 1st (and laugh at all your quaint US habits!!)
3 Maps - don't bother with GPS! a) they will laugh at you as a daft Yank! b) you will need to charge it I assume which might mean a charger and transformer if you have 110V US model c) Michelin do fantastic maps at 1:200k which are dirt cheap (about €4 or less) and you can buy them in any newspaper/bookshop. Buy the ones you need as you go along. They also do 1:100k for some areas (eg South Coast). They also have a great website where you can view the whole country at every scale www.viamichelin.com
4 The French love cyclists - they will particularly be pleased to have Yank who has enough guts to do something which doesn;t require the handholding of a guide and sustenance of a burger and 100oz Coke very few minutes
5 Any advice or help contact me - I am bilingual if that might help in any way!
6 Accept (hard though this may be to believe) that even more than you Americans the French think that their country language food culture etc are the best in the world, so please don't do as most of you do and try and argue otherwise!

Bonne route!

Julian

I still don't know where this whole attitude about rude drivers in Italy come from. I've ridden my bike in the north and the south... several times in the past few years, and I just haven't gotten the hostility. I get more hostility riding through Chicago traffic in one day then I've gotten in the three trips I've taken in Italy.

Italians love cyclists too- shoot, they have the Giro there every year, and they have great respect for the cyclists. There have been many people who've been kind to me when I've traveled by bike through the countryside- from the restaurants that help me out with using bathrooms and being sensitive to helping me keep an eye out for my belongings, to hotels that are fully booked that still find a way to help out a cyclist who has no real itiniary and could not make a reservation in advance. People will hold rooms for me, give me something to drink when I'm thirsty, and offer to help me find what I'm looking for when I'm lost and frantically checking my map to see where I went wrong. And I love how traffic sees me as part of traffic. It took a lot of getting used to when I would see cars patiently waiting to pull out of a parking lot as I was riding on the street. In Chicago, those cars would have pulled out in front of me and not given a crap about how fast I was going or if I would have to make a sudden stop because they jumped out in front of me. In Italy, they wait. I used to slow or stop, and the drivers would look at me like I was crazy, gesturing me to continue riding, then pull out behind me. And people walking would often wave at me as I passed or they'd shout a good morning and wave at me. I totally feel safe as a cyclist on the road, and I feel welcome as well.

Italians are great people- they have great roads for traveling on, they're happy to help out, and even when I don't speak Italian, they don't look at me snide at all. They have a great way of communicating with their hands so that you understand what they're saying, which makes life a lot easier for you when you're totally lost or when you really need some information. Italians are also respectful of your culture- they think their country is great, but they also love America. They may hate Bush, but they love America, and that is always clear when I visit. They'll never insult your culture, but they will ask you questions about it. And if you decide to get a burger and a 100 oz coke and walk around displaying your American-ism, they'll not look down on you.

It is clear that whether you go to Italy or France, you'll have a good cycling experience. I guess what you'll need to decide is which country interests you more. It looks like you have positive experiences from both countries, which should make you feel a lot better about traveling through them. The next step is to perhaps pick up some books and do some research and see which country has a greater pull on you.

Or do both.

Koffee

I got around France by using "Cycling France" by Lonely Planet..and "Cycling in France" by Ulysses Books...Both outline outstanding circle routes...Might not be ideal for a border to border route... Some of their routes do overlap...
Their suggestions are incredible and roads used are mostly like back country roads with perfect traffic patterns...
Argueing with the French over their food...Love French food on this side of the Atlantic...Why would one question it.?
Had to control my wife...She calls many of her favorite dishes 'orgasmic'...And I regret to say a Ham in a truffle sauce simmered over a local liqueur caused her to act like Sally as imitated by Meg Ryan in "Midnight in Seattle" was it's title?
The herb based food in Provence is awesome, along with Lavender/Honey sauces..If we get homesick for a Blimpie burger, then I will be siding with the French.

And I regret to say a Ham in a truffle sauce simmered over a local liqueur caused her to act like Sally as imitated by Meg Ryan in "Midnight in Seattle" was it's title?

If you're talking about Meg's role as Sally, then it was "When Harry Met Sally". But if you're talking about the movie where Meg goes to France, then it was "French Kiss". But if you were talking about her movie when she went to Seattle to meet a lonely widower, then it was "Sleepless in Seattle".

Koffee

Koffee...Was that movie like 15 years ago...Sleepless in Seattle..Ryan played role of Sally, I think...
My wife imitated Sally in Angouleme, France in a restaurant over the Ham in Truffle sauce...Just like Sally did at a restaurant in the presence of Tom Hanks in regards to his short comings..That was a memorable scene.....Sex/food all sensual sensations...
The waiter in Angouleme took it as a compliment..
The recollection for that restaurant was tres , tres orgasmic..

Nah, that was "When Harry Met Sally". And she confronted Billy Crystal, who played the part of Harry.

Great scene.

Koffee

Hmm...France or Italy. I wish all my choices were so good. I've only cycled in France but have backpacked in both countries. As a previous poster mentioned, France is probably better for cyclists in terms of roads/infrastructure. Also, there are more flatter parts in France unlike Italy which has the dolomites going west/east in the north and a mtn ridge going north/south. So Italy might be more challenging in terms of terrain as well.

Personally, I prefer Italy and I wouldn't let a few difficulties stop me from riding there. I prefer italian food to french, the weather is better, people are friendlier. Italy has more "energy", for lack of a better word; it’s a little more exciting for me. YMMV, some prefer things more sedate and organized.
But France is great also, and you shouldn't let french stereotypes (which IMO are completely blown out of proporation) affect your decision. Racism exists in every country but you are unlikely to experience it on holiday. Can't go wrong with either country, really.

Does anyone really need a GPS in Europe? Its almost impossible to get lost there. Besides, half the fun of travelling is misreading a map and getting stuck in the dark in the middle of nowhere and sobbing quietly by the side of the road, cursing your horrible map-reading skills and throwing the map to the ground in a childish hissyfit. Uhh…not that I've ever done that before....(cough).. Anyway, a GPS takes all the adventure out of it.

I agree with Dahon.Steve about the GPS. One of my great touring days was poor navigation in La Drome. We had camped outside of Die and chose a route on the map the night before. We knew we had to climb south out of that valley. My wife was navigating on the back of the tandem, there was a fold in the map right where we were. We were riding through beautiful vineyards, and my wife said "turn left here". Up we climb, as expected. 7 kms later I hear "oh, ****" or something to that effect. We had taken completely the wrong road, and it wasn't going to connect with the road we had chosen. No worries though - the riding was fantastically beautiful, and by this time we realized we were on a "La Drome a velo" route. We never made it to the small town of Bordeaux (where my wife mistakenly imagined we'd be enjoying lunch at a winery! - wrong Bordeaux I told her later), but that ended up being such an incredible day - the towns, the scenery, the hills, the people.

Getting lost is how I found myself in Pisa looking at some leaning building. I prefer maps. I'd use a compass, but half the time, I can't figure out how to use it. :)

Koffee

i would only consider a GPS if i do countries like mongolia, otherwise i would prefer maps. the fun of checking maps is unbeatible, besides they don´t need batteries.

Bulgaria is much better :)
http://bgbybike.tripod.com/index.htm

But what are the roads like in Bulgaria..? A friend of mine went touring in Romania and Moldavia....Said the roads in Moldavia..It was faster to walk...Even on a mountain bike...he said...The roads would have been a challenge...Eastern Europe interests me greatly..Think first I would head to Hungary...

I haven't been in Bulgaria yet, but if you say, then I belive that it's great. But I think Hungary is also beautiful! But a bit boring if you prefer mountains... The biggest mountain 1015 m high. (Kékes) The Great Plain is nice if you are tourist, and have never seen a wrangler or have never eaten goulash.
Well, there are of course beautiful (and interesting) places in Hungary, so come and enjoy! ;-)
ági

Forgive my brokan English of first .... I have not a possibility to spell it here, so many mistakes are possible :( .....

Yes, Hungary is beautiful place and people in it are great really - it is a place of civilization! (and no mountains of course). And in Europe 2 such lands - Bulgaria and Hungaria - both they had so unhappy history.
Many years ago I had a friend from Budapest - Istvan - one summer, 1969 if I remember well, we were together at the Black Seaside for 2 weeks. Hungarians loved to spend summers at the Black seaside very much.

What about roads in Bulgaria - each kind of them. I prefer remote places in the mountains - in my web I have a page concerning roads in the country. In Bulgaria you still can find places, as if they are still in XIX century. Some tourists like that.

I haven't been in Bulgaria yet, but if you say, then I belive that it's great. But I think Hungary is also beautiful! But a bit boring if you prefer mountains... The biggest mountain 1015 m high. (Kékes) The Great Plain is nice if you are tourist, and have never seen a wrangler or have never eaten goulash.
Well, there are of course beautiful (and interesting) places in Hungary, so come and enjoy! ;-)
ági
In the early 70's we took the hydrofoil from Vienna to Budapest..Who needs mountains when you see the beauty of Budapest..It rivals Paris..Cycling about Lake Blanton would be fun..
When I visited its shores it was very warm ( the water) Liked to have spent more time there...Bet cycling would be great in Hungary..
Hungary to me rivals France for food, wine, culture...And at least, Budapest scenery...We hail from Detroit..When growing up Detroit had more Hungarians than any other city outside of Hungary...You have proud culture...Living in the US west, I very much miss Eastern European food..ie Hungarian...Goulash..That it just for the unitiated to Hungarian...Chicken Popukrish (sp?)is my favorite...
Who needs hot peppers when there is curry, Paprika, calender..
Some day Hungary is a destiny for the bike and myself..

I haven't been in France. But in july I'm going there. I'd like to see the Tour de France. And Armstrong, and Vinokurov, and Bodrogi...etc...etc. So after the Tour I can tell you which is better. Paris or Budapest?
Chicken Popukrish? Is it paprikás csirke? :)

There is great riding in both countries, but pick France as its the spiritual home of cycling. We have endless fantastic rides on our doorstep here in the Pyrenees.

Anti-semetism: You have nothing to worry about. The reality is that there is about one incident of stupid graffiti a week, normally in the part of France alongside the German border. You will of course hear about it in the states because the US / UK press enjoys (possibly fairly) lambasting France as being backward. This is the truth, I not trying to belittle the problem - there are some serious race attitude problems in Europe, but they are not overt, nor will you encounter them on a holiday.

Why restrict yourself, if you do a tour around Mt. Blanc your tour includes France, Italy and Switzerland. You will find the best scenery that Europe offers, wonderful mountain towns ( Chamonix, Courmayeur, Zermat to name a few), and low traffic roads. Look at a map, you can fly into Geneva and avoid large cities. The food in this region is pretty fantastic too. Mid to late summer is best.

My wife and I did a tour of the Dordogne region in France in fall of 2002. The people were gracious, the food delicious and the cycling superb. plus, the region has some of the very best wine in the world. we did a combination of camping and hotels and found that many of the campgrounds were in the best parts of the towns we visited.
my wife wrote a story about it for the AP which you can find in various publications. i.e.
http://www.theeagle.com/brazossunday/travel/110502tandem.htm

I can't promise your experience will mirror ours. at the time we felt quite a bit of good will from the French re: Sept. 11 attacks which has dissipated since then. nonetheless, I can recommend it highly. we also used the Michelin maps.

Italy or France?
look at the picture I took last summer in the Alps: it's the Colle Agnello which seperates Italy from France.
I took the picture "looking back" after I had come from the pass on my way from France to Italy (there is a little village, Chianale, can you see it?). You can do so along the border several times and I think, that's my answer: Italy AND France. Want some more pictures? look here (http://people.freenet.de/westalpen/).
marmotte

I experienced both France and Italy.
I have to say I prefer Italy, cycling in France is a bit more sad.
Italy is so exciting, you can join bike-teams with any problem.
(I even joined professional ones), food is excellent and weather too.
If you like nature and want to discover wonderful places
I suggest you to go to the centre of Italy, visit e.g. http://www.mybikeholiday.com cause the north is too crowded.
In the centre there' s more peace and you can find high mountains and see all together.
Last I don't think you'll find antisemitism in France or Italy when cycling.

it's the Colle Agnello which seperates Italy from France.

It's scary looking at your picture... It's almost a copy of my own, though I climbed Agnello in the other direction :). And I agree, the Alps in Italy and France are equally beautiful: Who could choose between Izoard and Pordoi or Galibier and Stelvio or ... :).

However, I probably have a slight preference for France but I don't really know why.

/Csson