Electronics, Lighting, & Gadgets - Fed up with Garmin. Any options to Garmin products?

Garmin licensing is disgusting. My handheld GPS died. If I buy a new one they won't allow me to transfer the maps I own to the new unit. So after spending $400 on a new handheld I will need to pay again for maps that I already own. This should be illegal. It's clearly a racket. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Does anyone else make handheld units that will work on a bike and as well as for hiking?

Try using opensource maps, so if you need a license for a new GPS it costs the same $0 as it did on the first one.

Seriously, I gave up on Garmin maps partly because they always seem to be badly dated and partly because I didn't want to have to buy another copy of the exact same map when I wanted to buy another Garmin GPS. For cycling and hiking you can do a lot worse than OpenStreetMap maps. Not only that, if the maps are wrong you can correct them yourself rather than emailing Garmin and getting an automated response that says how important your mail is to them and a map update within a timeline that says they couldn't care less about your email.

Thanks! Do they offer the same functionality as Garmin maps and are they compatible with Garmin tracks? Track recording, track uploading, etc? I don't really use routes on the handheld. I create a route with RideWithGPS or Garmin Source and load the tracks on to the handheld. I also like to record tracks when I'm riding and then save them on my computer.

Delorme makes some nice units. I have a Delorme PN40 that I've used for MTB, and it works well. Delorme also has the PN60 and Spot (http://shop.delorme.com/OA_HTML/DELibeCCtdItemDetail.jsp?item=30785). Spot allows you to send text messages (send but not receive, as I understand it).

Delorme makes some nice units. I have a Delorme PN40 that I've used for MTB, and it works well. Delorme also has the PN60 and Spot (http://shop.delorme.com/OA_HTML/DELibeCCtdItemDetail.jsp?item=30785). Spot allows you to send text messages (send but not receive, as I understand it).

And how's their map licensing?

Thanks! Do they offer the same functionality as Garmin maps and are they compatible with Garmin tracks? Track recording, track uploading, etc? I don't really use routes on the handheld. I create a route with RideWithGPS or Garmin Source and load the tracks on to the handheld. I also like to record tracks when I'm riding and then save them on my computer.

Pretty much the same functionality, the only difference will be in the routing which can sometimes be a bit hit-and-miss.

Track recording - no problem. Track uploading - no problem. I just cycled a 170 mile coast-to-coast trip across England this last weekend, recorded the track log for the entire way and had a pre-prepared track log I followed when the road signs weren't as informative as they might have been.

Swing by http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl and download some maps for your area.

If you're unhappy with Garmin products you can also try creating track logs with www.bikeroutetoaster.com - that's the one I tend to use for routes around the UK. Sometimes a route needs a little tweaking if it tries to be too clever by taking "shortcuts" that involve turning across the traffic twice to cut 0.1 mile off a corner somewhere, but once you've got the route created you can download it, see the elevation profile, estimate how long it will take you to ride (based on your speed on the flats and climbing speed) etc.

Pretty much the same functionality, the only difference will be in the routing which can sometimes be a bit hit-and-miss.

Track recording - no problem. Track uploading - no problem. I just cycled a 170 mile coast-to-coast trip across England this last weekend, recorded the track log for the entire way and had a pre-prepared track log I followed when the road signs weren't as informative as they might have been.

Swing by http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl and download some maps for your area.

Thanks! Yeah, I wouldn't use routing on this one so that's not a problem. I mainly need the ability to load GPX tracks and record tracks.

If you're unhappy with Garmin products you can also try creating track logs with www.bikeroutetoaster.com (http://www.bikeroutetoaster.com) - that's the one I tend to use for routes around the UK. Sometimes a route needs a little tweaking if it tries to be too clever by taking "shortcuts" that involve turning across the traffic twice to cut 0.1 mile off a corner somewhere, but once you've got the route created you can download it, see the elevation profile, estimate how long it will take you to ride (based on your speed on the flats and climbing speed) etc.

I use http://ridewithgps.com/ which I'm used to. Then I export the track into a GPX file and upload it to the unit using MapSource. Although they support direct loading to the unit now from their site so I won't need to use MapSource which is a horrible piece of software anyway.

I'm mostly unhappy with Garmin extortion scheme not their products though. If they were more accommodating and respectful I'd continue using their products. But they're like RIAA/MPAA: they treat their customers like thieves and want you to pay again and again for software that you already own.

You can route, it's just that sometimes the route it comes up with is a little... shall we say... scenic?

I've sometimes seen my GPS create an 8-mile route to a point a mile away. I've got no idea why. So for the most part I use it to know where I am and accept if I'm going somewhere new I may need to create a track and stick to it well. Failing that I can always navigate back to the track and go from there.

You can route, it's just that sometimes the route it comes up with is a little... shall we say... scenic?

I've sometimes seen my GPS create an 8-mile route to a point a mile away. I've got no idea why. So for the most part I use it to know where I am and accept if I'm going somewhere new I may need to create a track and stick to it well. Failing that I can always navigate back to the track and go from there.

LOL, routing even with Garmin maps is hit and miss. So I also know where I'm going and just use the GPS to know where I am.

I'm mostly unhappy with Garmin extortion scheme not their products though. If they were more accommodating and respectful I'd continue using their products.
I wouldn't blame Garmin for the map policy. They buy the rights to the maps from NavTeq and that's the company that imposes the single device restriction. Back when Garmin was using TeleAtlas maps there was no such limitation (but I did find the NavTeq maps to generally be a little more accurate).

But, as mentioned already, there are plenty of free maps available, especially if you don't need all the bells and whistles. The track recording is completely separate from the maps you have loaded so that is unaffected by whether you use the Garmin/NavTeq maps or some of the free ones.

I wouldn't blame Garmin for the map policy. They buy the rights to the maps from NavTeq and that's the company that imposes the single device restriction. Back when Garmin was using TeleAtlas maps there was no such limitation (but I did find the NavTeq maps to generally be a little more accurate).

But, as mentioned already, there are plenty of free maps available, especially if you don't need all the bells and whistles. The track recording is completely separate from the maps you have loaded so that is unaffected by whether you use the Garmin/NavTeq maps or some of the free ones.

Thanks for the explanation. I'm still sour whether it's Garmin or NavTeq. I'm looking at the Delorme units now and they look pretty nice.

Coincidentally, just got an offer from Delorme today: $125 for the PN-40 with U.S. topo maps. I haven't seen anything terribly restrictive about Delorme's maps, but then again I haven't looked too hard.

Yeah, it looks like a $30/year subscription gives you access to all their maps. I just need to figure out the differences between the units.

I'm not promoting this site but you can look

http://gpsunderground.com/forum/gps-navigation-systems/garmin-gps-systems/

Try this site for free GPS maps:

http://www.gpsfiledepot.com/ (http://www.gpsfiledepot.com/)

The first couple of downloads are a little tricky until you get the hang of uploading to the Garmin through BaseCamp. I tack my rides using a Dakota 20.

What broke on your GPS? Unless it was totally destroyed, maybe its fixable.

"PND"s (personal navigation devices) are just small computers. Most generic GPSs these days have an ARM cpu and a small touchscreen display. I don't know what part of the hardware defines the particular unit that is licensed, but I am sure that an inventive person armed with Google could figure out how to fix most broken GPSs for a fraction of what a new one would cost.

Check out instructables.com for info on how to do specific tasks.

Often a broken electronic device just has a broken trace on its PCB.

The thing that can fix some is heating the PCB up for a short time just over the melting point of the solder thats used, in an old toaster oven. Dont use an oven you use for food! And make sure its just the board and soldered components - not the plastic parts, screen, case, switches, speaker, batteries.. etc.

Or you can use a heat gun if its hot enough. Make sure you *only* heat up the PCB and its directly attached parts.. *not the other parts*

Some other PNDs just need battery replacement. When rechargeable batteries are soldered in, the old battery needs to be removed and replaced with a new one of the same voltage.

Even a broken screen can often be replaced. See if you can find the same or a similar unit and cannibalize it for parts.

You get the idea..

Small embedded devices are great. You can learn a lot with those devices.

There is a new small (credit card sized) development board that is coming out right now, the RaspberryPi. Its going to cost around $25-35

Chances are you could build your own GPS using open source maps, one of these boards, and a one chip GPS solution like the Skytraq modules.

And it would never go obsolete on you, because you could update it with open source maps.

I second the recommendation for http://www.gpsfiledepot.com/ (http://www.gpsfiledepot.com/) if you want garmin-compatible *topo maps* of the US. (Good for hiking, but they dont supply the street data in a form thats usable for turn by turn directions.)

I think it developed a crack over time and water got inside during riding in pouring ran. It shuts off intermittently now. Although it got better. Last week it wouldn't stay on more than a few minutes. Now, half an hour more. I took it apart, and dried it by putting it on top, of my screen for a few days. I'll take for a ride tomorrow and see how it behaves. Perhaps I will follow your suggestion and disassemble it even more. Perhaps I can tell how the water got in and seal the crack.

I am not as handy with electronics though so I am not sure I could replace parts like that.

Thanks a lot for all the advice :)

It sounds like a fixable intermittent circuit board problem to me. A GPS is a computer, so if the power cuts out even briefly, it will then reboot, which may make the problem look worse than it is.

Be careful about static electricity on top of what sounds like a CRT monitor!

It sounds to me like your unit is still fixable, but be aware that *static electricity* can - in a second, permanently destroy the CPU, making the unit *much* more difficult to fix.

If you open the case up, you'd be smart to do a little reading on ESD first. Its quite easy to minimize ESD. You just need to keep yourself and any tools you use grounded. (Typically people use a wire connected to a grounded plug - connected via a strap attached to a wrist or similar)

Its still early in the year and the humidity is still low enough to make ESD a big potential problem. When or where the humidity is higher, ESD is a non-issue.

Check out the instructables site and sparkfun.com for lots of good basic info on electronics.

I know about static. I work with computers, but I don't have a lot of experience with small electronics. I'll try to take it apart and see if I can find anything wrong. I'd much rather hold on to it for a while longer than buy a new one right now.

If you have a cheap multimeter, that's very useful. I also recently got an inexpensive 8 channel logic analyzer pod, and thats also proving to be super useful with digital devices.

They also can work as a JTAG cable which is potentially extremely useful with embedded devices.

I've seen similar raw hardware (just the basic board, no case, no cable, no grabbers) for as little as $18 on ebay.

Check out the sigrok project wiki.

http://sigrok.org/wiki/Main_Page

Garmin licensing is disgusting. My handheld GPS died. If I buy a new one they won't allow me to transfer the maps I own to the new unit. So after spending $400 on a new handheld I will need to pay again for maps that I already own. This should be illegal. It's clearly a racket. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Does anyone else make handheld units that will work on a bike and as well as for hiking?

I'm fed up with Garmin, too. Do they offer any kind of tech support? I'm having a hell of time using my Garmin device, and I can't find anywhere on the net where they offer help to their customers.

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/810101-How-to-send-GPX-files-to-device

Their support is OK. They respond to an email in a day or two and are generally helpful. Go to their website->Support and click Contact Support.

It's this map licensing scheme that drive me nuts. This is the second time for me. At least the maps are cheaper now, REI sells them for $60. They used to be twice as much.

Their support is OK. They respond to an email in a day or two and are generally helpful. Go to their website->Support and click Contact Support.

It's this map licensing scheme that drive me nuts. This is the second time for me. At least the maps are cheaper now, REI sells them for $60. They used to be twice as much.

If I were you, I'd see if I couldn't find some of those maps on a pirate site. After all, Garmin's cheating you out of your money. You're entitled to a copy of those maps since you've paid for them.

They use online activation for their maps that is not easy to crack. They stop working eventually.

Their support is OK. They respond to an email in a day or two and are generally helpful. Go to their website->Support and click Contact Support.

It's this map licensing scheme that drive me nuts. This is the second time for me. At least the maps are cheaper now, REI sells them for $60. They used to be twice as much.

So dump the Garmin maps completely, use the free opensource maps.

So dump the Garmin maps completely, use the free opensource maps.

Garmin road and topo maps are vector based while most open source maps are, unfortunately, layered images (an image per zoom level). I can fit half of the US on one 4GB card with detail down to 50 feet. I can't even squeeze open source maps of 1/3 of NY State with all zoom levels on the same 4GB card.

It sounds to me as if you should write up an articulate explanation of why they should change their licensing scheme and make a web site to discuss it. I wouldn't go the pirate site route - files on those sites may contain trojans, etc, and you've made it clear that you do really like their products. You are right, though in that they should be transferable. And I also think if you took this issue to court, you might well win. If you pay for it - once, you should be able to continue using that data indefinitely.

If your GPS breaks, you should be able to transfer the maps off of it onto your next - if they do you right, Garmin, if not, some other, GPS.

The rules for ownership of digital content are still in the process of being hashed out.

I'm studying that stuff a lot right now. To say that its complicated would be an understatement.

There is a old net saying that "information wants to be free". Another old saying is that the Internet routes itself around any censorship (which also applies to overzealous rulemaking)

Much of this DRM stuff is, I agree, not a natural state of affairs in many ways. The other side of the puzzle is that open source software is starting to come into its own. You look like a fairly smart guy, I didn't start learning Linux until I was in my early 30s and now its a big source of fun and interesting new computing energy in my life.. I suggest that you investigate the world of open source software that might be able to do what you want. I would specifically look into openstreetmap and the various tools that are compatible with it. There are also an increasing number of free and open source GIS and vector based tools to explore and make and create your own layered GIS datasets and maps.

A lot is happening in that area.

The newer PostgreSQL installers on Windows, I think, give you the option of installing PostGIS! That is pretty amazing.

If you are at all technically minded, you should check out the world of GIS tools. A good place to start is http://www.osgeo.org

Before you know it, you could be working with all the free vector data you need and you wouldnt need or miss those commercial maps.

Your characterization of free maps as bitmap based is not true. The free maps on the gpsfiledepot site are topo maps, which of course are geared towards hikers, but the openstreetmap maps are the same technology as is used on the commercial maps. They are not bitmaps. On a laptop they load and display fast and I am sure there is a way of using them for turn by turn directions.


Garmin road and topo maps are vector based while most open source maps are, unfortunately, layered images (an image per zoom level). I can fit half of the US on one 4GB card with detail down to 50 feet. I can't even squeeze open source maps of 1/3 of NY State with all zoom levels on the same 4GB card.

It's all greed. Maximizing the gain. Most corporations make more money that they'd ever need and still want more. Just RIAA/MPAA wants to charge you extra for content you already own, so do the software companies.

I'm tired of computers, I work with them and when I get home I have little inclination to learn new stuff beyond what I immediately need. I'd much rather go a for a bike ride.

BTW, I opened up the unit and I realized that the battery container is not connected to the mainboard with wires, but with those springy contacts: two thin springs that press against two square contacts on the board. The contacts on the board were oxidized, I cleaned them up and gave the springs a little pull. I will test it on Saturday, but so far dropping the unit repeatedly on the floor didn't make it shut off. Crossing fingers.

+1 on the opensource maps. I got an Edge 800, picked up a cheap 4GB card, downloaded a map of the US and everything worked great.

: )


BTW, I opened up the unit and I realized that the battery container is not connected to the mainboard with wires, but with those springy contacts: two thin springs that press against two square contacts on the board. The contacts on the board were oxidized, I cleaned them up and gave the springs a little pull. I will test it on Saturday, but so far dropping the unit repeatedly on the floor didn't make it shut off. Crossing fingers.

Awesome!

There are pre-built free open street maps for Garmin bike computers. No software is needed, just download the map file, and copy it to your Garmin.

I posted detailed installation instructions in this thread. (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/801939-Anybody-using-Open-Street-Maps-on-their-Garmin...?p=13923671&highlight=#post13923671)

I have a 705. ridewithgps.com has .tcx Course files that work great. Courses files are used with "Training" , not with "Where To"

And I've recently been using the "Only the cuesheet entries, not the entire track" version of the the .gpx file. I get good warnings at the turns, and it actually works correctly, not like the other .gpx full version, which often failed to route correctly. ( Garmin's software is often junky. Why would a full .gpx file with a breadcrumb trail and the turns fail to route? It would just skip whole sections of the route. Yet, the turns-only version works correctly...huh.)

So I went for a 60 mile ride on Saturday and the unit didn't turn off even once! I hope it'll stay that way. I'd like to stick to it for a bit more, not eager to buy another one yet.

So I went for a 60 mile ride on Saturday and the unit didn't turn off even once! I hope it'll stay that way. I'd like to stick to it for a bit more, not eager to buy another one yet.

Excellent!