General Cycling Discussion - Trek Lane - No Go on Chro-Mo

There was a thread posted back a bit, called "Trek's Steel Cross Lane CX Bike: Is It A Rip-Off?". The thread was locked, so I couldn't reply back to it directly.

Anyways, I emailed Trek a few weeks back, asking about the Trek Lane's frame composition. Here is the reply I got back from Trek:


While the frame is a butted steel frame, it isn’t a cro-moly.

There are lots of different kind of steel tubing. Some better than others.

There was a thread posted back a bit, called "Trek's Steel Cross Lane CX Bike: Is It A Rip-Off?". The thread was locked, so I couldn't reply back to it directly.

Anyways, I emailed Trek a few weeks back, asking about the Trek Lane's frame composition. Here is the reply I got back from Trek:

...."While the frame is a butted steel frame, it isn't a cro-moly"...

What! You've just got to be kidding me! ...Here we go again! ...I can't believe the holy hell that I endured from posting the possibility that Trek's Steel Cross Lane was a rip off, just last year, here at BF.

Well maybe people will now believe you, since you're a different person...What a shame!!! Shame on Trek for being so deceitful!!!

So the Trek Steel Cross Lane IS made of hi-tensile steel!

That's all that I have to say about this topic!!!

Made with gas pipe?? Sorry i could not resist Next April first "Gas pipe bike for sale"

There are lots of different kind of steel tubing. Some better than others.

Yep. The famed Reynolds 531 tubing isn't cro-moly, either. ;)

531 is Mg-Moly, isn't it?

Made with gas pipe?? Sorry i could not resist Next April first "Gas pipe bike for sale"


Yep. The famed Reynolds 531 tubing isn't cro-moly, either. ;)


531 is Mg-Moly, isn't it?


Last year I was informed by a Trek Tech-guy that the Steel Cross Lane was made of hi-tenslie steel. That statement was soon to be refuted by certain members on this forum, as well as a Trek salesperson at a LBS. Personally, I'd rather go with my email from the Trek tech guy from Trek's headquarters.

Therefore, it's not 531 mn-steel. It's not 4130 or 520 chromoly steel. It's really much closer to the gas pipe steel that JamesW2 was kidding about.

- Slim

There was a thread posted back a bit, called "Trek's Steel Cross Lane CX Bike: Is It A Rip-Off?". The thread was locked, so I couldn't reply back to it directly.Anyways, I emailed Trek a few weeks back, asking about the Trek Lane's frame composition. Here is the reply I got back from Trek:

Maybe it was locked so that no one else could reply to it directly!

The famed Reynolds 531 tubing isn't cro-moly, either.

Manganese Moly Carbon steel..

If it's Manganese-Molybdenum steel, then it'd be Mn-moly, not Mg-moly. ;)

Last year I was informed by a Trek Tech-guy that the Steel Cross Lane was made of hi-tenslie steel. That statement was soon to be refuted by certain members on this forum, as well as a Trek salesperson at a LBS. Personally, I'd rather go with my email from the Trek tech guy from Trek's headquarters.

Therefore, it's not 531 mn-steel. It's not 4130 or 520 chromoly steel. It's really much closer to the gas pipe steel that JamesW2 was kidding about.

- Slim

The supposition that you caught 'holy hell' for is the same one that you are making now. The steel in this frame isn't like gas pipe steel nor is the frame the same as those that you can buy at Helmart. High tensile steel doesn't mean that the steel is carbon. If fact it means the opposite. Carbon steels are of much lower strength's than steels of a higher tensile strength.

Steels with high tensile strengths...of which the chrome molybdenum alloy is one... may, or may not, be alloyed with chromium and molybdenum. Steels can be alloyed with nickel, manganese, silicon, tungsten, vanadium or any number of other elements. They all have 'high tensile strengths'.

And no one in their right mind would spend the money needed to butt a low quality steel. It's not like you call up a manufacturer and order 500 feet of butted steel tubing. You have to order it by the individual piece. You can call up a manufacturer and order and order 500 feet of gas pipe which you cut to whatever length you want. Without knowing what is in the steel, you shouldn't jump to the conclusion that a $1200 bike is made of 'gas pipe' or that Trek is trying to 'rip off' the customer by, to use your words, "employing scam tactics to make sales".

I ride a quality Hi-Ten frame from the '70s, love it. The butted tubing is noticeably thinner than my Cro-mo bikes, smooth and sexy. Frankly, it would make Trek Lane more attractice to me as a buyer ...if they've kept the weight down.

The supposition that you caught 'holy hell' for is the same one that you are making now. The steel in this frame isn't like gas pipe steel nor is the frame the same as those that you can buy at Helmart. High tensile steel doesn't mean that the steel is carbon. If fact it means the opposite. Carbon steels are of much lower strength's than steels of a higher tensile strength.

Steels with high tensile strengths...of which the chrome molybdenum alloy is one... may, or may not, be alloyed with chromium and molybdenum. Steels can be alloyed with nickel, manganese, silicon, tungsten, vanadium or any number of other elements. They all have 'high tensile strengths'.

And no one in their right mind would spend the money needed to butt a low quality steel. It's not like you call up a manufacturer and order 500 feet of butted steel tubing. You have to order it by the individual piece. You can call up a manufacturer and order and order 500 feet of gas pipe which you cut to whatever length you want. Without knowing what is in the steel, you shouldn't jump to the conclusion that a $1200 bike is made of 'gas pipe' or that Trek is trying to 'rip off' the customer by, to use your words, "employing scam tactics to make sales".

A person pretending to be blind will never be able to see. A belief is not an easy thing to change, specially by interweb strangers.

If you want entry level ChroMo try this. MSRP $1199 http://www.bianchiusa.com/bikes/road/steel/volpe/

http://www.bianchiusa.com/typo3temp/pics/b0e91919cd.jpg (javascript:close();)

But I agre just because it is not ChroMo does not mean it is HiTen junk

If you want entry level ChroMo try this. MSRP $1199 http://www.bianchiusa.com/bikes/road/steel/volpe/


But I agre just because it is not ChroMo does not mean it is HiTen junk

There are primarily only two types of bicycle production grade steel. There's hi-tensile and there's chromoly. That's fundamentally it!
www.rei.com/expertadvice/learn/bike+frame+materials.html (http://www.rei.com/expertadvice/learn/bike+frame+materials.html)


- Slim

PS.

Of course, there are many different types of novelty steel bicycle frames that are custom-made and are found in bicycle boutiques. I'm not referring to off grade steels. I'm referring to the steel frames that you'll see in the typical bicycle shop.

There was a thread posted back a bit, called "Trek's Steel Cross Lane CX Bike: Is It A Rip-Off?". The thread was locked, so I couldn't reply back to it directly.

Anyways, I emailed Trek a few weeks back, asking about the Trek Lane's frame composition. Here is the reply I got back from Trek:

Answers are only as good as the question asked.

Make a list of the qualities that you'd like your bicycle to have: comfortable ride, strong, lightweight, good handling characteristics, cheap, etc.

A cro-moly steel frame is one solution to providing a good mix of those characteristics. There are certainly other solutions.

There are only two types of bicycle production grade steel. There's hi-tensile and there's chromoly. That's it!
www.rei.com/expertadvice/learn/bike+frame+materials.html (http://www.rei.com/expertadvice/learn/bike+frame+materials.html)- Slim

You're kidding - right?

The supposition that you caught 'holy hell' for is the same one that you are making now. The steel in this frame isn't like gas pipe steel nor is the frame the same as those that you can buy at Helmart. High tensile steel doesn't mean that the steel is carbon. If fact it means the opposite. Carbon steels are of much lower strength's than steels of a higher tensile strength.

Steels with high tensile strengths...of which the chrome molybdenum alloy is one... may, or may not, be alloyed with chromium and molybdenum. Steels can be alloyed with nickel, manganese, silicon, tungsten, vanadium or any number of other elements. They all have 'high tensile strengths'.

And no one in their right mind would spend the money needed to butt a low quality steel. It's not like you call up a manufacturer and order 500 feet of butted steel tubing. You have to order it by the individual piece. You can call up a manufacturer and order and order 500 feet of gas pipe which you cut to whatever length you want. Without knowing what is in the steel, you shouldn't jump to the conclusion that a $1200 bike is made of 'gas pipe' or that Trek is trying to 'rip off' the customer by, to use your words, "employing scam tactics to make sales".

Yeah right!...As I recall, you were another major contributor to the fodder that was being presented back then. Like I said back then, I'll repeat now, there are primarily only two types of steel that bicycles are made from. They're either made from hi-tensile steel (low grade for bicycles, yet still strong), or they're made from some form of chromoly steel. That's it! There simply are no more choices, unless were talking about some novelty steel, such as stainless steel. Stainless steel is indeed a rarity in bicycles!
www.rei.com/expertadvice/learn/bike+frame+materials.html (http://www.rei.com/expertadvice/learn/bike+frame+materials.html)

There's really nothing else to say about this topic. Besides, the Trek tech has already emailed me for confirmation that it's hi-tensile steel. Both the industry and scientists will readily admit that "hi-tensile" steel is not as strong as "chromoly" steel. However, one has to know that practically all steels have a high tensile strength.

I once thought the world of Trek. Nobody wants to think less of Trek. IMHO, Trek is being deceitful by not stating clearly, just exactly what the Steel Cross Lane is really made. What's with the "platinum series" steel label, without the chromoly confirmation? ...Why don't Trek's people on the ground know of what material the Lane is composed?

Last year, I called several of Trek's LBS. All had varying and diverse answers about the Lane's composition. Finally, fed up, I emailed headquarters. They responded with the confirmation that the Lane is indeed made of hi-tensile steel. Now, if we were discussing Schwinn, and Schwinn stated that they butted hi-tensile steel, would it then be more acceptable?...I dunno :rolleyes:

You're kidding - right?

I'm only kidding, if REI is kidding!

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/776622-Trek-s-Steel-Cross-Lane-CX-Bike-Is-It-A-Rip-Off?highlight=

If you want a particular name-brand tubing, pay more for the frame/bicycle.

I'm only kidding, if REI is kidding!


I would have to assume that whoever wrote that for REI did not do her/his research. Not only has it been mentioned here that the vaunted Renolds tubes are not CroMo they completely over looked the fabulous NivaChrome steel tubing that Columbus developed/adapted to the bicycle tubing. MAX, EL, EL OS (which is used to make 'MiniMAX') Genius and a few others. Perhaps REI simply does not sell bikes of this quality and opted not to add this information to keep from confusing their "Branded" customer base.

Here's the problem. Trek's Steel Cross Lane as purported in Trek's catalogue, is made of Platinum Series steel. That's what it says on the Steel Cross Lane page. However, if you'd go to the page featuring Trek's Sawyer, it states that the Trek Sawyer is made of Platinum Series chromoly steel.

Did Trek leave the word, "chromoly" out for the Steel Cross Lane?....Are there two different types of Platinum Series?...One for hi-tensile and one for chromoly...

Personally, it would seem more logical for this to simply be a typo. However, when the tech people email you, fully admitting that the Lane is indeed, hi-tensile steel, what could this discussion possibly be about?

I really do hope that this isn't simply a case of Trek people just making blunders all over the place.....

I would have to assume that whoever wrote that for REI did not do her/his research. Not only has it been mentioned here that the vaunted Renolds tubes are not CroMo they completely over looked the fabulous NivaChrome steel tubing that Columbus developed/adapted to the bicycle tubing. MAX, EL, EL OS (which is used to make 'MiniMAX') Genius and a few others. Perhaps REI simply does not sell bikes of this quality and opted not to add this information to keep from confusing their "Branded" customer base.

No. There was very little research to be done. We're talking about at least 99% of all steel bicycle sales. The overwhelming majority of all steel bicycle frames are either of hi-tensile or chromoly steel composition.

Most of the ones you've mentioned are of chromoly derivation. However, you're right in making the statement that there are other types of steel. These other types of steel, all have their roots steeped in chromoly, with the exception of Reynolds 531.

Most of the ones you've mentioned are of chromoly derivation. However, you're right in making the statement that there are other types of steel. These other types of steel, all have their roots steeped in chromoly, with the exception of Reynolds 531.

Plain language translation: "Even though you have clearly proven my error, I'm never going to admit it."

Plain language translation: "Even though you have clearly proven my error, I'm never going to admit it."

No Sir. There are many different types of chromoly steel and chromoly steel-like types. The % additions of various elements to molten iron and how the steel alloy is treated after melting, determines the type of chromoly steel it becomes. If molybdenum or chromium are not present in their standard quantities, then the product cannot be called, chromoly steel. It would then have to be called some other derivation of chromoly steel, without using the term, "chromoly". That's why I've stated here, that they are "chromoly steel like" materials. These are steel materials that have had other elements added either in addition to the chromoly standard, or with some change made to the chromoly standard.

However, that's besides the point.

Most non-boutique, non-novelty, and non-customized bikes, that are made of steel, are either hi-tensile or chromoly.

Whoa! Did anyone else see those goalposts move?

Whoa! Did anyone else see those goalposts move?

Scott, if only we could get you into rehab... I'll just bet we could get those goalposts to stop moving on ya! :lol:

So what's the real issue?

You don't like how Trek is marketing their "steel" frame and believe that they are misleading the consumer. You feel it your own personal crusade to inform the public that Trek is using "scam tactics". You want Trek to change their ways.

Good luck with that! :thumb:

:rolleyes:

As long as they don't claim there's actual platinum in their "Platinum Series Steel" and then don't put it in, what's the big deal? They're not claiming it's something it's not are they? Is it just that you think it's overpriced? I think most bikes are overpriced, that's why I buy used. But then I'm a cheap tightwad.

But then I'm a cheap tightwad.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

itbl

itbl

Wut?

then the product cannot be called, chromoly steel. It would then have to be called some other derivation of chromoly steel, without using the term, "chromoly". That's why I've stated here, that they are "chromoly steel like" materials. These are steel materials that have had other elements added in addition to the chromoly standard.
Huh???

Huh???

Gotta love equivocation. Standard trolling technique. ;)

Plain language translation: "Even though you have clearly proven my error, I'm never going to admit it."

His mind is made up, don't confuse him with the facts. From Trek's website posting on the 2011 Sawyer (http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/2011/archive/sawyer) which uses the Platinum series steel:


Frame: Custom-butted Platinum Series chromoly steel,

Now, perhaps, they have two different Platinum Series steels...a cheap version and the expensive double platinum version?:rolleyes:... but I kind of doubt it.

Wut?
Sorry for my clumsy fingers. IBTL

Sorry for my clumsy fingers. IBTL

I thought it was some new fangled acronym :P

His mind is made up, don't confuse him with the facts. From Trek's website posting on the 2011 Sawyer (http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/2011/archive/sawyer) which uses the Platinum series steel:



Now, perhaps, they have two different Platinum Series steels...a cheap version and the expensive double platinum version?:rolleyes:... but I kind of doubt it.

I've already stated as much in post #22....You Copycat, you! :lol:

On a similar note, we should discuss misleading colors quoted by manufacturers.

For example, I've seen many bikes described by official sales literature as blue, when in reality they range from aqua to azure to cobalt.:eek:

It's outrageous! :twitchy:
People are being screwed daily by bicycle companies!:mad:

There are probably all sorts of insignificant things with no practical difference that we can find with which to flog the bike companies. ;);););)

if a thread starts being about each other instead of the topic at hand, it's not an appropriate discussion for this forum.

As far as steels go, if they don't tell you what the composition is you're just speculating anyway. Without significant amount of time in the engineering library, I don't think I would understand much about what the significance of steel composition is anyway. To be perfectly honest, it doesn't really matter to me as a framebuilder. I look at butt lengths and decide if I want to bother with a heat treated steel, but other than that, forget it.

Below a certain price point, you're not going to get very good steel. 4130 is pretty cheap. I'm surprised they butted a cheaper steel than 4130.

Below a certain price point, you're not going to get very good steel. 4130 is pretty cheap. I'm surprised they butted a cheaper steel than 4130.

This.

Below a certain price point, you're not going to get very good steel. 4130 is pretty cheap. I'm surprised they butted a cheaper steel than 4130.

Which makes me wonder if it's not really just 4130 that they stuck their own name on it. I mean it appears that sometimes it's called chromoly and sometimes it's not. Maybe it's just 4130 that's polished or something in a proprietary way that they're not allowed to tell anyone so they don't even tell their tech support.

Which makes me wonder if it's not really just 4130 that they stuck their own name on it. I mean it appears that sometimes it's called chromoly and sometimes it's not.
Yes, something like this. The "Platinum Series" thing is just a marketing label meant to give the impression that it's made of name brand tubing. It's Trek's attempt to get in on the current fad for steel.


Maybe it's just 4130 that's polished or something in a proprietary way that they're not allowed to tell anyone so they don't even tell their tech support.
Now you are trying too hard! ;)

if a thread starts being about each other instead of the topic at hand, it's not an appropriate discussion for this forum.

As far as steels go, if they don't tell you what the composition is you're just speculating anyway. Without significant amount of time in the engineering library, I don't think I would understand much about what the significance of steel composition is anyway. To be perfectly honest, it doesn't really matter to me as a framebuilder. I look at butt lengths and decide if I want to bother with a heat treated steel, but other than that, forget it.

Hence my original point. I think that the original topic is the wrong question.

I don't care what the tubeing is. I want a bike frame that is strong, light and cheap. If you can give me all three I don't care what you call the tubeing. Since it's always necessary to make compromises, I want to know how the bike feels when I ride it. If I like how the bike rides, I still don't care what you call the tubeing.

I've already stated as much in post #22....You Copycat, you! :lol:

So rather then look at this in a logical manner, you're just going to stick with your original (erroneous) premise that Trek is trying to rip you off? Let's look at the Trek line, shall we? The Sawyer ($1540) says, quite clearly, that has a frame that is made of Platinum Series chrome molybdenum steel. It also says that the Lane ($1210) is made of Platinum Series steel. The 520 ($1480) is listed as made of "butted chromoly" but not of Platinum Series. The Belleview ($740) says that it's made of CrMo steel but doesn't list it as 'Platinum Series' steel. The Atwood ($490), the 700 ($380), and the 820 ($370) all are listed as being made simply of "steel".

Now I can see the Sawyer costing more than the Lane or the 520 because there's more work and materials involved in making the frame. But are you really going to argue that Trek is trying to pass off a $1200 bike that is made of the same steel as their bikes that are around $400? The parts on the $400 bikes aren't that bad nor are the parts on the Lane that good to make up an $800 difference in parts. If the Lane were as much of a pig as you think it is, the lipstick on it would have to be of a much higher quality. People who shell out $1200 for a bike aren't that stupid!

On the other hand, if the frame material on the $1200 Lane is the same as the $400 bikes, why isn't Trek ballyhooing those frames as being made of "Platinum Series" steel? They are in the business of selling bicycles and part of selling bicycles, as in selling steaks, is selling the sizzle.

Then there is the usage of terms. The term "Hiten" or "high ten" or "high tensile strength" when applied to steel is mostly meaningless. Those terms were used back in the bike boom era of the late 70's and early 80's as a marketing term to differentiate low strength steels that had been used to construct bicycles from better quality steels that were being used on more expensive bikes. Although Helmart wasn't the force then it is today, Sears, Penney's, Wards, Western Automotive, and a whole host of other places were selling 'bicycles' which were every bit as BSOs as today's BSO offerings from Helmart. What the metallurgy of the steel was...or is...is mostly unknown without some fairly sophisticated materials analysis. However, all of those terms refer to a steel that has a higher tensile strength than weaker steel alloys used for frames of old (and of cheap bikes now). By definition, a iron product that has chromium and molybdenum added to it is a "high tensile strength" steel.

As with most conspiracy theories, you've taken a little kernel of misinformation, fertilized it with a modicum of misunderstanding and watered it with a vast quantity indignance and now have a giant beanstalk of outrage. Chop down the beanstalk with the sharp edge of logic and go about your merry way.

So rather then look at this in a logical manner, you're just going to stick with your original (erroneous) premise that Trek is trying to rip you off? Let's look at the Trek line, shall we? The Sawyer ($1540) says, quite clearly, that has a frame that is made of Platinum Series chrome molybdenum steel. It also says that the Lane ($1210) is made of Platinum Series steel. The 520 ($1480) is listed as made of "butted chromoly" but not of Platinum Series. The Belleview ($740) says that it's made of CrMo steel but doesn't list it as 'Platinum Series' steel. The Atwood ($490), the 700 ($380), and the 820 ($370) all are listed as being made simply of "steel".

Now I can see the Sawyer costing more than the Lane or the 520 because there's more work and materials involved in making the frame. But are you really going to argue that Trek is trying to pass off a $1200 bike that is made of the same steel as their bikes that are around $400? The parts on the $400 bikes aren't that bad nor are the parts on the Lane that good to make up an $800 difference in parts. If the Lane were as much of a pig as you think it is, the lipstick on it would have to be of a much higher quality. People who shell out $1200 for a bike aren't that stupid!

On the other hand, if the frame material on the $1200 Lane is the same as the $400 bikes, why isn't Trek ballyhooing those frames as being made of "Platinum Series" steel? They are in the business of selling bicycles and part of selling bicycles, as in selling steaks, is selling the sizzle.

Then there is the usage of terms. The term "Hiten" or "high ten" or "high tensile strength" when applied to steel is mostly meaningless. Those terms were used back in the bike boom era of the late 70's and early 80's as a marketing term to differentiate low strength steels that had been used to construct bicycles from better quality steels that were being used on more expensive bikes. Although Helmart wasn't the force then it is today, Sears, Penney's, Wards, Western Automotive, and a whole host of other places were selling 'bicycles' which were every bit as BSOs as today's BSO offerings from Helmart. What the metallurgy of the steel was...or is...is mostly unknown without some fairly sophisticated materials analysis. However, all of those terms refer to a steel that has a higher tensile strength than weaker steel alloys used for frames of old (and of cheap bikes now). By definition, a iron product that has chromium and molybdenum added to it is a "high tensile strength" steel.

As with most conspiracy theories, you've taken a little kernel of misinformation, fertilized it with a modicum of misunderstanding and watered it with a vast quantity indignance and now have a giant beanstalk of outrage. Chop down the beanstalk with the sharp edge of logic and go about your merry way.

Darn Cyccomute,

You must be keeper of all the rainy days and Mondays, that could ever get me down....Gloomy...Gloomy...Everything is gloomy with you.

First of all, your very premise is wrong. If you've been keeping up with the thread, you should have noticed that I myself, have serious doubts about whether Trek is even aware of this ordeal. I've even cast the blame towards possible human error in the form of a typo. I've also indicated that it's quite possible that perhaps the Trek people are just out of the information loop with respect to the Steel Cross Lane.

So therefore, if you've followed the progression of the thread, I've allowed room for other possible explanations and mechanisms for this unfortunate event to take place. Thus, the conspiratorial aspect becomes somewhat less concentrated, yet present nonetheless. Now, we both can agree that it makes more ethical sense to butt chromoly steel than the cheaper hi-tensile type. However, given the potential volume that Trek Lane sales possess, the profit gained from such trickery would indeed be quite sizeable.

Now would Trek risk its name being involved in this level of public deceit? One has to wonder....It just doesn't make sense to me that Trek would go to such an extent to build its reputation, just to destroy it with such inanity. However, once I received the email from the tech-guy, that the Steel Cross Lane was indeed hi-tensile steel, I was absolutely shocked.

Now what am I left to think?....Who am I to refute Trek's own tech guy?...Who are you to defend the Lane's composition and affirm it as anything else, other than hi-tensile steel after both the AlmostGreenGuy and myself have had the Lane confirmed as hi-tensile steel?

I would agree with you and the few others logic, who protest and proclaim that the Lane just couldn't be made of the hi-tensile grade steel. However, the Trek's own email and this post is just too hard to trump! I'm not going to argue with Trek about its own product. That would be just a little to silly! Wouldn't you agree?

...I've also indicated that it's quite possible that perhaps the Trek people are just out of the information loop with respect to the Steel Cross Lane....

So therefore, if you've followed the progression of the thread, I've allowed room for other possible explanations and mechanisms for this unfortunate event to take place. Thus, the conspiratorial aspect becomes somewhat less concentrated, yet present nonetheless. Now, we both can agree that it makes more ethical sense to butt chromoly steel than the cheaper hi-tensile type. However, given the potential volume that Trek Lane sales possess, the profit gained from such trickery would indeed be quite sizeable.

??? Yet you prefer the loony conspiracy theory!


However, the Trek's own email and this post is just too hard to trump! I'm not going to argue with Trek about its own product. That would be just a little to silly! Wouldn't you agree?
The person who replied just read the same web page you did. No mystery at all.

As with most conspiracy theories, you've taken a little kernel of misinformation, fertilized it with a modicum of misunderstanding and watered it with a vast quantity indignance and now have a giant beanstalk of outrage. Chop down the beanstalk with the sharp edge of logic and go about your merry way.

http://i564.photobucket.com/albums/ss87/GhostGrendel/OrsenWellesClapping.gif

http://i564.photobucket.com/albums/ss87/GhostGrendel/OrsenWellesClapping.gif

^^^
"SnowJob"? Hmmm.

??? Yet you prefer the loony conspiracy theory!

Business is conspiracy-filled!


The person who replied just read the same web page you did. No mystery at all.

So you're saying the Trek tech-guy read the same webpage that I read? ...Why would a qualified Trek tech-guy need to read the same webpage that I'm reading?...Shouldn't they be trained and and tested for their current up-to-date knowledge concerning the technological facts about each and every model of bicycle?

Shouldn't the right hand of Trek know what the left is doing?

PS.

Don't be so quick to drop the conspiracy ball...

While I don't prefer the conspiracy explanation, I don't eliminate it as a possiblity, either.

Conspiracies do exist! Just ask any CEO or lawyer...

In most cases, the entire marketing department is involved in one big conspiracy!