Living Car Free - Carfree infrastructure

There are lots of rural and suburban folks who hang around LCF.

I'm kind of curious as to whether they can continue to pursue active transportation when there's really no infrastructure to support their activity. For example, I know people who ride their bikes 6 or 7 miles to the grocery store. Or commute a god awful number of miles each day. Or who have to make a major bike expedition to even get to a coffee shop.

But how practical is that over the long haul? Don't you thing you'd eventually get a car? Or maybe move somewhere closer to things?

move closer to things makes more sense to me.-:)

I'm close (< 5 miles) from almost everything I really need. What bothers me is my friends who like to meet for a little walking exercise that's at a park 10mi from me, or when they want to do a 50mi ride that starts 8mi from my house (giving me a 60+ ride). If I was 25 I'd be fine, but I'm 67 and it's tiring to do that much mileage.

I'm close (< 5 miles) from almost everything I really need. What bothers me is my friends who like to meet for a little walking exercise that's at a park 10mi from me, or when they want to do a 50mi ride that starts 8mi from my house (giving me a 60+ ride). If I was 25 I'd be fine, but I'm 67 and it's tiring to do that much mileage.

I know all about that. There are a lot of organized rides around here. They always start somewhere far away from my house and I'll be damned if I'm riding 10 miles to do a century.

I'm hooked into a mortgage, credit and liquidity are issues, so moving is off the table. Fortunately, there are several groceries within 2 miles.

But I can safely say: I will do just about anything to avoid having to buy another F'N car. To me, it's like slave chains.

The boyfriend has a car that's paid off completely, so if anything is out of range of my outofshape body powering the bike, he can give me a ride. I see no reason to throw away thousands on a car if I dont need to.

I'm in the suburbs, yes. But things aren't that far from me. There are sidewalks, I'm not far from the mall, library, community center, parks, grocery store etc... There's plenty of public transit here. Plus taxis for emergencies. Being in the suburbs doesn't exclude carfree infrastructure.

Before I was car - free, my longest commute was 29 miles each way. I did it by bike most of the time, and loved it; and was terrifically fit as a result, of course. But note I say "most of the time". There were occasions when weather conditions were simply too foul. I don't mind riding one hour forty five minutes in the rain, but snow and ice are a different matter. And there were other occasions when it was imperative that I have access to the car during the day for work purposes. So it would have been very tough to go car free under those circumstances.

Now, when I no longer need to commute, it is no problem. I ride, or I take public transport. In the 18 months since I sold the car I have hired one on three occasions for journeys that would have been impracticable otherwise. And I have, on occasion, ridden 20 miles to the start of an organised 104 mile ride, making it a 144-mile round trip for me. A long day, but not insupportable. In fact I quite like the reaction of other (younger) riders when they discover I've got to the start line by bike.

I live in a semi-rural area. Carfree could be done (and is by a couple of people) but jobs are limited in this area to low paying retail/service type jobs. Eventually we will either become a relative self sufficent farm or move into town where things are a lot closer. In the past 5-6 years we have gotten a small pharmacy, a chain grocery store, dentist and GP within a 3 mile radius, if you 8 miles you get a couple more grocery stores and some fast food. It is 19 miles one way into the largest nearby town with full services. About 16 miles to a smaller town with full services. Biggest problem is the roads getting to and from those towns, they are not cyclist friendly.

Aaron :)

There are lots of rural and suburban folks who hang around LCF.

I'm kind of curious as to whether they can continue to pursue active transportation when there's really no infrastructure to support their activity. For example, I know people who ride their bikes 6 or 7 miles to the grocery store. Or commute a god awful number of miles each day. Or who have to make a major bike expedition to even get to a coffee shop.

But how practical is that over the long haul? Don't you thing you'd eventually get a car? Or maybe move somewhere closer to things?

Look you throw $1500-$2000 and get a BionX rear wheel with a RR high-end battery, and when you want it you use it. You recharge it by pedaling at 1/4 or 1/2 resistance down hill, use it to keep your 20mph speed without getting winded. Let's face it, a 20 mile highway drive in clear traffic is 20 minutes, but you're not going to get clear traffic commuting to or from work are you? And everything isn't a straight highway shot.

I plan on buying myself a Trek 520 when I get a job and putting a BionX rear wheel into it a few months later. I'll drop the rear wheel and swap on the original (and take out the battery) when I don't want to go eBiking. This may involve reconfiguring the rear brake as well, we'll see.

Your work commute is 10 miles? That sucks. It's a nice ride if it's not hilly, but some days you want that power so you can shave 10-20 minutes off the ride... at which point it's exactly as long as (or faster than) the drive. You work down I-95, 35 miles away? Traffic in rush hour is so much suck that a bike ride through the city takes just as long if you're Lance ... maybe you can eBike it, maybe not. It really depends, but it could happen. A "quick" 5 mile drive downtown involves $15 parking or finding a parking spot 12 blocks away, if you just don't feel like biking it today you can eBike it but I'm sure 5 miles is nothing in the city, I do that all the time.

I don't mind riding one hour forty five minutes in the rain, but snow and ice are a different matter.

See for me I don't mind the rain in 106F weather, but if it's like 70, 40, a few degrees above whatever's Farenjerk for freezing, the rain is my enemy. If it's below freezing and snowy... Schwalbe winter tires and lots of wool!

See for me I don't mind the rain in 106F weather, but if it's like 70, 40, a few degrees above whatever's Farenjerk for freezing, the rain is my enemy. If it's below freezing and snowy... Schwalbe winter tires and lots of wool!

I'm with you. I find snow is often more comfortable than rain. (and a lot prettier too.) If the temp is less than about 70F, you really need some kind of rain gear to stay warm and dry. And then you sweat--unless perhaps you pay a fortune for breathable rain pants and jacket. In snow you just wear your light winter shell and maybe a couple layers of wool and/or fleece.

I'm with you. I find snow is often more comfortable than rain. (and a lot prettier too.) If the temp is less than about 70F, you really need some kind of rain gear to stay warm and dry. And then you sweat--unless perhaps you pay a fortune for breathable rain pants and jacket. In snow you just wear your light winter shell and maybe a couple layers of wool and/or fleece.

Less than 70f? It's less than 70f maybe 275 days a year, here. But then, it's not often below freezing, either.

The thing that interests me about this discussion is the notion that 10 miles each way is a long commute by bike. I commuted for many many years. My shortest was 8 miles, which even in London traffic was a 35 minute ride - comfortably faster than I could have done it by car or public transport. Mostly I commuted in the 15-20 mile range. About an hour each way riding, which in big cities is a commonplace travel time to work, and it kept me pretty fit at the same time. I'm a bit surprised to find riders in a carfree forum regarding a 10 mile commute as a serious inconvenience.

Less than 70f? It's less than 70f maybe 275 days a year, here. But then, it's not often below freezing, either.

The thing that interests me about this discussion is the notion that 10 miles each way is a long commute by bike. I commuted for many many years. My shortest was 8 miles, which even in London traffic was a 35 minute ride - comfortably faster than I could have done it by car or public transport. Mostly I commuted in the 15-20 mile range. About an hour each way riding, which in big cities is a commonplace travel time to work, and it kept me pretty fit at the same time. I'm a bit surprised to find riders in a carfree forum regarding a 10 mile commute as a serious inconvenience.

Who mentioned a 10 miles commute being a serious inconvenience? We'll toss them right off this forum.... right now! :)

My thought in starting this discussion was a scenario that I see often here. A > 20 mile roundtrip commute, many miles for groceries, many miles for just about everything. There are commuters here who do that, just as there are car commuters who do 3 to 4 hours a day on the road.

My question is at what point do carfree types say.. hey, maybe I should give all this up and get a lifestyle where I'm not on the bike 3-4 hours every day.

I know bike riding is a good way to keep fit, but at a certain point, long days in the saddle must really detract from the rest of your life.

And certainly, for myself at age 58, I don't think I could handle that type of lifestyle. I try to keep my weekly miles in the 80-120 range and find it keeps me adequately fit and also gives me time to spend on this forum:)

I know bike riding is a good way to keep fit, but at a certain point, long days in the saddle must really detract from the rest of your life.

And certainly, for myself at age 58, I don't think I could handle that type of lifestyle. I try to keep my weekly miles in the 80-120 range and find it keeps me adequately fit and also gives me time to spend on this forum:)

Each to their own. I'm a year younger than you, and I am on the bike for 12-15 hours a week, no longer because I need to but just because I like it. I'm happy to acknowledge that I'm slightly nuts, of course...

The real issue for the rural/suburban car free lifestyle is health. Cyclists age more slowly than the general population, and there are some posters in the 50+ forum who are still racking up prodigious mileages in their eighties. But eventually, accident or infirmity is going to stop us carting 40lbs of groceries ten miles home by bike. At that point it makes sense to move somewhere a little closer to services and amenities.

Each to their own. I'm a year younger than you, and I am on the bike for 12-15 hours a week, no longer because I need to but just because I like it. I'm happy to acknowledge that I'm slightly nuts, of course...

The real issue for the rural/suburban car free lifestyle is health. Cyclists age more slowly than the general population, and there are some posters in the 50+ forum who are still racking up prodigious mileages in their eighties. But eventually, accident or infirmity is going to stop us carting 40lbs of groceries ten miles home by bike. At that point it makes sense to move somewhere a little closer to services and amenities.

I don't know how you young fellows do it But let me tell you, sonny, it's all downhill after 57. :)

Actually, I'm doing about 10-12 hours a week throughout the year. I guess that doesn't speak much to my speed. I seem to average about 10-11 mph. I blame it on the red lights.

So I looked up 70F in centigrade, and confirmed that rain at a balmy temp like that is a take-your-t-shirt-off situation for me.

So I looked up 70F in centigrade, and confirmed that rain at a balmy temp like that is a take-your-t-shirt-off situation for me.

It is all acclimation, I don't go to short sleeves until the sustained temperatures are above 85*F (29*C) :D

Aaron :)

I don't know how you young fellows do it But let me tell you, sonny, it's all downhill after 57. :)

Actually, I'm doing about 10-12 hours a week throughout the year. I guess that doesn't speak much to my speed. I seem to average about 10-11 mph. I blame it on the red lights.

11 mph (as measured on a bike computer) is a damn good average for city riding, and don't let anybody tell you otherwise. Actually, 11 mph is around the average speed for cars in the city.

I'm car light (6,000 miles a year) and live in out in the burbs. But not too far, and can walk to the grocery, bank, drycleaners in a little over a mile. Work and the GF are 4 - 6 miles away, and I ride those routes enough to keep the mileage low like I do. But public transportation doesn't work for me most of the time, I'd rather walk or bicycle than take the bus if I'm not driving.

I'm car light (6,000 miles a year) and live in out in the burbs. But not too far, and can walk to the grocery, bank, drycleaners in a little over a mile. Work and the GF are 4 - 6 miles away, and I ride those routes enough to keep the mileage low like I do. But public transportation doesn't work for me most of the time, I'd rather walk or bicycle than take the bus if I'm not driving.
But you have a car as a backup. Otherwise, you'd be taking a very inconvenient bus or a bicycle.

If you were planning on moving, would you think about moving where walking and biking would be even more convenient (I'm imagining there might be in Chicagoland, but depends on a lot of factors I guess... cost of housing, proximity to girlfriend, family, etc,,,)??

Reason I ask is that I'm living in a house that has become over-sized. I just don't need that much space. And every time I have to mow the lawn, I keep thinking... this is rather silly...

I've mentioned this before, but I'll add here as well. I love riding my bike, moreso than my kids. My wife loves riding as well. We have a pair of Xtracycles with various brackets and seats should someone have a mechanical problem or fatigue set in sooner than normal, we can still get everyone and everything home. When we looked for a home after moving to Ohio, we choose a place close to shopping and not so far from work. We actually do 95% of our grocery shopping on bike. We're getting around to doing other shopping on bike as well. I'd love to bike to work and dont think the 7 miles one way would be any challenge. The only issue is rider safety as one part of the road is very narrow and has many blind spots. During the day, I could manage, but I go to work well before the sun comes up and that is where my commute becomes scary. I'll stick to driving, thanks.

Carfree works for some, but not all. I dont ride for green/mother earth. I dont ride because its easier or faster. I dont ride to get back at the oil companies. I dont ride for my health. I ride because I like to ride. I just try to incorporate my enjoyment for riding into everyday activities. :)

If you were planning on moving, would you think about moving where walking and biking would be even more convenient ...

Speaking for myself, I'd move somewhere that offered easy access (by bike and public transport, preferably rail) to a City/town centre, but allowed me to get out into the countryside pretty quickly on the bike.

Speaking for myself, I'd move somewhere that offered easy access (by bike and public transport, preferably rail) to a City/town centre, but allowed me to get out into the countryside pretty quickly on the bike.

Do you have any examples of this type of situation?

But you have a car as a backup. Otherwise, you'd be taking a very inconvenient bus or a bicycle.

If you were planning on moving, would you think about moving where walking and biking would be even more convenient (I'm imagining there might be in Chicagoland, but depends on a lot of factors I guess... cost of housing, proximity to girlfriend, family, etc,,,)??

Reason I ask is that I'm living in a house that has become over-sized. I just don't need that much space. And every time I have to mow the lawn, I keep thinking... this is rather silly...

After buying a condo in 2004 that I still owe more on than it's worth, I don't think I'll be moving soon. But in 1998 I got divorced and moved out of the single family home I'd lived in for years and into an apartment in the downtown area of an old suburb. There wasn't much there then, but by the time I moved out of that town and into my condo the downtown area had started to come back to life - and I'd accidentally ended up working about a mile from home. I loved walking to work but wanted to move out of the area and the decision to buy my condo was based in part on being able to walk to so many things in my neighborhood. And after I moved I ended up dating the GF who has a single family home with all the stuff I used to take care of - so in a way I'm back to where I started on one hand. Except I didn't have to pay for the lawnmower, snowblower etc...

If i was going to move, my first choice would be the Netherlands - but I don't think that's going to happen. My second choice would allow me to live either car free or car light. I wouldn't want to go back to an isolated suburb or Chicago - neither one appeals to me now.

Do you have any examples of this type of situation?

Yes, many, but they're in the UK. To take my local circumstances, Newcastle upon Tyne is the regional capital, a city of about 275000 people in a conurbation of around 1000000. It has a light rail metro system that will get you from the outskirts to the centre in less than 20 minutes, and from the very centre of town you can be in pretty open countryside within a similar time by bike. Similar considerations would apply -usually utilising overground rail services, rather than metros - in most British provincial cities.

Even in London, if you pick your location it's very possible to live within a half-hour train or underground journey of the city centre, while if you go in the opposite direction you're only a short bike ride from being out of town.

Yes, many, but they're in the UK. To take my local circumstances, Newcastle upon Tyne is the regional capital, a city of about 275000 people in a conurbation of around 1000000. It has a light rail metro system that will get you from the outskirts to the centre in less than 20 minutes, and from the very centre of town you can be in pretty open countryside within a similar time by bike. Similar considerations would apply -usually utilising overground rail services, rather than metros - in most British provincial cities.

Even in London, if you pick your location it's very possible to live within a half-hour train or underground journey of the city centre, while if you go in the opposite direction you're only a short bike ride from being out of town.

Good points. You got me to thinking that most cities are like this. Ride to the "end of the line" on train or bus, then hop on your bike and it isn't far to the countryside.

Real estate professionals advise that when selecting property, the three most important considerations are "location, location, and location." This is even more important when you're choosing carfree housing.

There are lots of rural and suburban folks who hang around LCF.

I'm kind of curious as to whether they can continue to pursue active transportation when there's really no infrastructure to support their activity. For example, I know people who ride their bikes 6 or 7 miles to the grocery store. Or commute a god awful number of miles each day. Or who have to make a major bike expedition to even get to a coffee shop.

But how practical is that over the long haul? Don't you thing you'd eventually get a car? Or maybe move somewhere closer to things?

For many of us things moved closer rather than farther away. Supermarkets tend to move into the Suburbs and Exburbs. Shopping malls are mostly on the outskirts of a town and industrial parks have brought the jobs out of downtown. But a bigger influence or getting a car is having a family. Once someone becomes a parent they start thinking about finding a better school for their kids so they look for a home in that district. That is how it works here anyway. Having a nice room for the kids becomes more important. Then there are all of the after school activities, football practice, Base Ball, Basket Ball, track swimming and in some cases dance, cheer, and flag practice. I was still willing to ride a bike when I had a 18 mile commute but I got a car for my wife to attend to the needs of the kids, she doesn't ride.

The biggest effect on when I decided to get a car was employment advancement and job location. working for a multi national company moving up often ment a transfer. A $10,000.00 a year promotion sometimes ment an additional 15 mile commute. The job may also require client interaction and a car became part of the dress code. I know it is different in dofferent parts of the US but here moving up meant moving out and management realized that. I admit that the last five or six years I worked the company paid for my car I used during the day and paid my gas for my personal vehicle so I could be on call. Even after I retired I get a discount on my cell phone because I have the same contract and company I had back then.

But I am back to what it was like when I first got married. I have a car at home for my wife and vacations. I ride one of my bikes almost everywhere else, Drug store, post office, dr. office and if I go to church by myself there as well. But I live in a small rural area that has mutated into a suburb and finally a small city,100,00 or less, perfect size in my opinion. I have downsized my home to be just big enough for my wife and I. I can get fruits and vegetables grown locally. I can get milk, eggs, and chicken grown locally. And I can ride to the mall, wally world, Food warehouse or coffee shop if I want. So I think with more cycling infrastructure things will come to us or at least in cases like mine that is how it works. And once again 20 miles doesn't seem all that far for an average round trip.

Speaking for myself, I'd move somewhere that offered easy access (by bike and public transport, preferably rail) to a City/town centre, but allowed me to get out into the countryside pretty quickly on the bike.

Yeah, that's what I'd like too, plus being able to get a meaningful job. But I'm US and so far I have no idea how to find such place.

Yeah, that's what I'd like too, plus being able to get a meaningful job. But I'm US and so far I have no idea how to find such place.

Really? Even in NYC, with the rail network it can't be too hard to live on the northern fringes of the city and be in a relatively open environment. But of course it is easier in smaller cities. When riding through upstate NY last year I paused in Saratoga Springs. Seemed a nice place, and it took me no more than twenty minutes to ride clean out of town. There's a host of such places, even in the USA.

Finding the job is another matter, of course.

Really? Even in NYC, with the rail network it can't be too hard to live on the northern fringes of the city and be in a relatively open environment. But of course it is easier in smaller cities. When riding through upstate NY last year I paused in Saratoga Springs. Seemed a nice place, and it took me no more than twenty minutes to ride clean out of town. There's a host of such places, even in the USA.

Finding the job is another matter, of course.

Not that easy.

1) I could keep my job in Manhattan and move up North, but this is BIG CITY. NYC plus the suburbs can take 2+h to traverse by rail to get somewhere relatively quiet and something you could call countryside. The suburbs reach far North. I would need to commute 2h one way, or more, by train. Then it's the cost: rents are very high closer to city and close to the train and the monthly train ticket can run $200-400.

2) I could leave NYC altogether, but then I'd just move to another state somewhere Midwest since most of NY State is economically dead outside of the few urban areas, finding a good job is impossible. It also gets pretty cold when you go up north. And many areas have very high crime rates because of the bad economy.

Once someone becomes a parent they start thinking about finding a better school for their kids so they look for a home in that district. That is how it works here anyway. Having a nice room for the kids becomes more important. Then there are all of the after school activities, football practice, Base Ball, Basket Ball, track swimming and in some cases dance, cheer, and flag practice. I was still willing to ride a bike when I had a 18 mile commute but I got a car for my wife to attend to the needs of the kids, she doesn't ride.


That's a good point. Seems like the years between being in college and being retired or semi-retired require the most "suburban" style accommodations. Just housing and transporting kids gets to be quite a job.

However, if you are in your college years or when you kids move on, you need a lot less transportation and housing. I know being carfree is a lot more practical for me now that I'm approaching my "golden" years. (approaching? quit kidding yourself!:)) I also need a lot less in the way of housing. And I won't likely have the funds to support a McMansion in the suburbs.

Still, though my house is a little (actually maybe a lot...) larger than what I need, it is located in an older suburb, where you have grid streets, a local grocery store and lots of shops within a mile radius. If I lived closer to downtown in a condo, I'd have a 3 mile ride to pick up lettuce. So the house location is about as ideal as it gets in Des Moines, but the house size and lot size are a bit much.

That's a good point. Seems like the years between being in college and being retired or semi-retired require the most "suburban" style accommodations. Just housing and transporting kids gets to be quite a job.

However, if you are in your college years or when you kids move on, you need a lot less transportation and housing. I know being carfree is a lot more practical for me now that I'm approaching my "golden" years. (approaching? quit kidding yourself!:)) I also need a lot less in the way of housing. And I won't likely have the funds to support a McMansion in the suburbs.

Still, though my house is a little (actually maybe a lot...) larger than what I need, it is located in an older suburb, where you have grid streets, a local grocery store and lots of shops within a mile radius. If I lived closer to downtown in a condo, I'd have a 3 mile ride to pick up lettuce. So the house location is about as ideal as it gets in Des Moines, but the house size and lot size are a bit much.

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My wife was from a traditional suburb in Davenport. We live in a much smaller place now. We tried condo living and it was OK but I wasn't impressed with the HOA. Too many rules.

But like I said at least in my case and those I went to College and worked with family drove a move to cars and bigger homes. Once that responsibility was satisfied many of us have simplified our life.

For many of us things moved closer rather than farther away. Supermarkets tend to move into the Suburbs and Exburbs. Shopping malls are mostly on the outskirts of a town and industrial parks have brought the jobs out of downtown. But a bigger influence or getting a car is having a family. Once someone becomes a parent they start thinking about finding a better school for their kids so they look for a home in that district. That is how it works here anyway. Having a nice room for the kids becomes more important. Then there are all of the after school activities, football practice, Base Ball, Basket Ball, track swimming and in some cases dance, cheer, and flag practice. I was still willing to ride a bike when I had a 18 mile commute but I got a car for my wife to attend to the needs of the kids, she doesn't ride.

The biggest effect on when I decided to get a car was employment advancement and job location. working for a multi national company moving up often ment a transfer. A $10,000.00 a year promotion sometimes ment an additional 15 mile commute. The job may also require client interaction and a car became part of the dress code. I know it is different in dofferent parts of the US but here moving up meant moving out and management realized that. I admit that the last five or six years I worked the company paid for my car I used during the day and paid my gas for my personal vehicle so I could be on call. Even after I retired I get a discount on my cell phone because I have the same contract and company I had back then.

But I am back to what it was like when I first got married. I have a car at home for my wife and vacations. I ride one of my bikes almost everywhere else, Drug store, post office, dr. office and if I go to church by myself there as well. But I live in a small rural area that has mutated into a suburb and finally a small city,100,00 or less, perfect size in my opinion. I have downsized my home to be just big enough for my wife and I. I can get fruits and vegetables grown locally. I can get milk, eggs, and chicken grown locally. And I can ride to the mall, wally world, Food warehouse or coffee shop if I want. So I think with more cycling infrastructure things will come to us or at least in cases like mine that is how it works. And once again 20 miles doesn't seem all that far for an average round trip.

Excellent post, and I don't dispute anything you say. I understand how difficult--impossible in some areas--it is to be carfree when you have young kids. I think it's amazing that you're able to use the car as little as you do, and all props to you! :thumb:

One thing I wonder about (in general, not with you personally) is why kids today have to be so dependant on their parents to shlepp them all over town. I remember transporting myself by foot, bike and bus to my after school activities.

In fact, a lot of times getting to the event (at least in memory) was more fun than the event itself. When you're 9 years old, a two mile bike ride to the community center is quite an adventure; the same trip in a car with your mom is pretty boring. I feel sorry for the kids today who don't get to do this.

I live in the suburbs and 1.5 miles from my work. After bike commuting a couple years, last August I decided to give car lite a try (wife still drives to work) and sold my car. It seemed like the car was sitting more and more, and quite frankly I was sick of driving it. At the time I gave up the car I was willing to sacrifice a few extracurriculars that were beyond my biking range. We have most necessities within a couple miles, groceries, post office, restaurants,etc which I accessed with my bike. All the big box stores, however, are on a major road that I have no desire to ride to, so I would usually make trips to those stores on the weekends with my wife's car. While living without a second car I basically became more of a homebody, doing small things around the house instead of being distracted by the car. The itch to get out more increased with our early spring and I recently just bought an older car so that I could participate in the activities I so recently was willing to sacrifice. I lasted 8 months. My original goal was one year, oh well.:) In short I underestimated my willingness to give up certain hobbies that need a car. I still intend to ride the bike basically everywhere I did without the second car. Ultimately I would like to be car free again, however that may have to wait until a time when I have another home and another job in another neighborhood. On the plus side, my new car is a lot less expensive to own.:thumb:

Excellent post, and I don't dispute anything you say. I understand how difficult--impossible in some areas--it is to be carfree when you have young kids. I think it's amazing that you're able to use the car as little as you do, and all props to you! :thumb:

One thing I wonder about (in general, not with you personally) is why kids today have to be so dependant on their parents to shlepp them all over town. I remember transporting myself by foot, bike and bus to my after school activities.

In fact, a lot of times getting to the event (at least in memory) was more fun than the event itself. When you're 9 years old, a two mile bike ride to the community center is quite an adventure; the same trip in a car with your mom is pretty boring. I feel sorry for the kids today who don't get to do this.

Some of it is "helicopter parenting" as well as the constant bombardment of social networks and media about all the missing and exploited children as well as a pedophile on every corner. The other issue is bus service has gone to hell in most urban areas, and they have done away with neighborhood schools, neighborhood recreation centers and moved things to the outskirts of towns. Subdivisions have gotten less dense and even more spread out. The area I grew up in we still had neighborhood schools, I went back to one of those areas and those schools are closed and all the kids in town are now bussed out into the county to go to a consolidated school.

Aaron :)

Some of it is "helicopter parenting" as well as the constant bombardment of social networks and media about all the missing and exploited children as well as a pedophile on every corner. The other issue is bus service has gone to hell in most urban areas, and they have done away with neighborhood schools, neighborhood recreation centers and moved things to the outskirts of towns. Subdivisions have gotten less dense and even more spread out. The area I grew up in we still had neighborhood schools, I went back to one of those areas and those schools are closed and all the kids in town are now bussed out into the county to go to a consolidated school.

Aaron :)

Yes, part of it was after the boomers past through school some districts combined students into newer schools and sold off older ones. Now the restrictions on building new schools are far greater and the budget strapped districts are having a harder time building than they did when I was a kid. So the solution may districts have is to find property in an area where they can get a big discount. That nine times out of ten is on the outskirts of urban areas. But it is also a god send to Suburban developers because they can dedicate part of their property to the district to get building permits from the city.

And one look a Megans law list in many areas will tell you there do seem to be more child molesters than when I was a kid. At least they are easier to spot on a computer. They even have a phone app that will alert you if your child is about to walk into a neighborhood where a pedophile lives.

But the big problem is how far kids have to go for after school functions. When my son was in Soccer, BMX, and Baseball he had to go six miles for everything but baseball. He could ride a bike to baseball but a late afternoon game was out of the question, we simply didn't allow him to ride after dark. In my old neighborhood the highschool is still there but two of my old elementry schools are now condos and the the junior high is now townhomes.

If this is not a problem where you live you are lucky. Like I mentioned before, by High School my sons bus pass was $300.00 a year and they did not provide any bus service to after school activities.

Yes, part of it was after the boomers past through school some districts combined students into newer schools and sold off older ones. Now the restrictions on building new schools are far greater and the budget strapped districts are having a harder time building than they did when I was a kid. So the solution may districts have is to find property in an area where they can get a big discount. That nine times out of ten is on the outskirts of urban areas. But it is also a god send to Suburban developers because they can dedicate part of their property to the district to get building permits from the city.

And one look a Megans law list in many areas will tell you there do seem to be more child molesters than when I was a kid. At least they are easier to spot on a computer. They even have a phone app that will alert you if your child is about to walk into a neighborhood where a pedophile lives.

But the big problem is how far kids have to go for after school functions. When my son was in Soccer, BMX, and Baseball he had to go six miles for everything but baseball. He could ride a bike to baseball but a late afternoon game was out of the question, we simply didn't allow him to ride after dark. In my old neighborhood the highschool is still there but two of my old elementry schools are now condos and the the junior high is now townhomes.

If this is not a problem where you live you are lucky. Like I mentioned before, by High School my sons bus pass was $300.00 a year and they did not provide any bus service to after school activities.

I agree that what you mention and what Aaron said are all reasons why kids don't walk or bike places much any more. But I have to mention something else. Since I was a kid in the 1960s, the population has doubled, and the number of cars on the road has increased by more than 300 percent. Thr roads all these cars move on were intentionally designed for cars--not cyclists or pedestrians. The cars are more protective on the occupants, meaning a crash with a bike or person is less likely to harm the driver, but just as likely to kill the person struck by the car. Additionally, speed limits are faster these days and traffic control is more confusing as they try to cram more and more cars into the infrastructure. (There were few LTO lanes when I was a kid, and RT on red was not permitted.)

With all this going on, I have to think that the streets really are more dangerous for kids on bike or on foot. You can't just teach kids to look left and right any more. They have to look in 17 different directions for cars, and most of the time you have no idea if ALL of tthe cars will have to stop at the intersection, or only those in certain lanes. A lot of parents think these conditions are too dangerous for "unshielded" kids, so they end up driving the kids four blocks to school.

I agree that what you mention and what Aaron said are all reasons why kids don't walk or bike places much any more. But I have to mention something else. Since I was a kid in the 1960s, the population has doubled, and the number of cars on the road has increased by more than 300 percent. Thr roads all these cars move on were intentionally designed for cars--not cyclists or pedestrians. The cars are more protective on the occupants, meaning a crash with a bike or person is less likely to harm the driver, but just as likely to kill the person struck by the car. Additionally, speed limits are faster these days and traffic control is more confusing as they try to cram more and more cars into the infrastructure. (There were few LTO lanes when I was a kid, and RT on red was not permitted.)

With all this going on, I have to think that the streets really are more dangerous for kids on bike or on foot. You can't just teach kids to look left and right any more. They have to look in 17 different directions for cars, and most of the time you have no idea if ALL of tthe cars will have to stop at the intersection, or only those in certain lanes. A lot of parents think these conditions are too dangerous for "unshielded" kids, so they end up driving the kids four blocks to school.

Yes all of that is a factor as well. Many schools where I used to live don't allow cycling to school because of heavy traffic. However because of that more parents are driving their kids to school and it causes even more traffic. I freely admit I don't know how modern society will ever deal with this problem. But all I was pointing out was things have changed from when I was a kid. I used to leave the house in the morning during the summer and only come home at lunch and again at dinner before my dad got home. I might be miles away at a friends house or even down town at the local city park. I don't often see small children at the park by themselves anymore. Teen age youths maybe but hardly ever anyone under 12. But I no longer live directly in a large urban area so things might be different there. Plus there are several schools close to my home now and I simply don't see kids walking more than a few blocks from those schools. Cars, crime rates, lack of public transport all may be factors. But times do seem to have changed from my youth.

Many schools where I used to live don't allow cycling to school because of heavy traffic. However because of that more parents are driving their kids to school and it causes even more traffic.

That's freaking insane and I also have no clue how/if this ever change. There are entire towns in USA with no sidewalks and dense traffic for miles. How many of these people drive to a grocery store less than a mile away?

That's freaking insane and I also have no clue how/if this ever change. There are entire towns in USA with no sidewalks and dense traffic for miles. How many of these people drive to a grocery store less than a mile away?

The neighborhood I live in has no sidewalks. We are right next to a busy 4-lane which does however.

I used to complain about the lack of sidewalks, but I notice that people do walk out in the street and cars are forced to go slower. Plus bicycles can't ride on sidewalks here. Of course, this is a not-very-busy side street, but I'm pretty sure if there were sidewalks, whatever car traffic we get would be travelling much faster than the 25mph speed limit.

This is definitely a case where the lack of bicycle/ped infrastructure is a benefit.

I live in a very small coastal town, that is about 70 miles away from any sort of substantial city. That's why I still have a car - the town itself is about 5 square miles, so I cycle or walk to most places, but drive the car pretty much only when I have to go to a city. If there was a car rental service here, I'd probably use that instead of owning a car. My car is a '94 Nissan Sentra that I paid cash for back in high school, stills runs great, so apart from oil (once a year whether it needs it or not, ha ha) and tires and insurance (very cheap, since it's driven and worth so little) it's not a big burden. Also looking at it is a good reminder of when I was in college and I could fit all of my worldly possessions into the trunk+back seat. That was a good feeling.

I dont ride for green/mother earth.

Ha ha, you sound like me when people start yammering that my dream of living in a sub 400 square-foot cabin is "like, sooooo green!" Nope, I'm just cheap and I hate vacuuming.

That's freaking insane and I also have no clue how/if this ever change. There are entire towns in USA with no sidewalks and dense traffic for miles. How many of these people drive to a grocery store less than a mile away?

My apartment complex is ACROSS THE STREET from a department store (ok, so the "street" is a 5 lane highway with no crosswalk, but it's totally doable if you keep your wits about you) and I see people drive there all the time. You'd have to walk farther in a Wally world parking lot. When I bought a guest futon there they even let me borrow a handtruck to take it across the street to my apartment.

I used to complain about the lack of sidewalks, but I notice that people do walk out in the street and cars are forced to go slower. Plus bicycles can't ride on sidewalks here. Of course, this is a not-very-busy side street, but I'm pretty sure if there were sidewalks, whatever car traffic we get would be travelling much faster than the 25mph speed limit.

This is definitely a case where the lack of bicycle/ped infrastructure is a benefit.

I live in a residential area that mostly lacks sidewalks as well and agree with your observation that it often forces more awareness on the part of drivers to pedestrians and cyclists. Also prefer it as a runner because I hate running on concrete sidewalks. The "sharing" tends to break down on sidewalk free arterials, though, because drivers seem less willing to share the road with encumberances that slow them down (like pedestrians and cyclists).

I live in a residential area that mostly lacks sidewalks as well and agree with your observation that it often forces more awareness on the part of drivers to pedestrians and cyclists. Also prefer it as a runner because I hate running on concrete sidewalks. The "sharing" tends to break down on sidewalk free arterials, though, because drivers seem less willing to share the road with encumberances that slow them down (like pedestrians and cyclists).

I have to ask if you run against traffic or with it?

Yeah, that's what I'd like too, plus being able to get a meaningful job. But I'm US and so far I have no idea how to find such place.Just saw this thread. I grew up in Queens, and lived there until my mid 30's, and I can understand how you might feel the way you do with that perspective. But have you considered NJ? If you were to move to someplace like Wayne, you'd be a 35 minute bus ride from Port Authority, and within easy biking distance of some nice roads, hiking trails, parks, etc. It gets pretty rural as you get North of Rt 80 and West of Rt 23, but is still a short hop (easily doable by bike) to public transit. 35 minutes one way probably isn't much different than the amount of time you're spending on the subway right now.

The fare for a monthly pass for the bus is $216, which is on the low end of your estimate. Not chickenfeed, I'll grant you. But not a $400 bump, either. Given that a round trip subway fare is $4.50 from Queens to Manhattan, assuming you don't live in one of the areas where you need to take the bus to the subway (which would double what I'm saying and make it totally a wash), you'd already be paying about $100/mo in carfare, the difference from what you're paying now is only $116/mo.

I don't think I really believed there was such a thing as New Jersey until I got a job there and then moved there. The world doesn't actually end at the Hudson River! :)

Edit: Just saw on the commuting forum that you currently ride into work on your bike, so scratch the part about subway fare. Moving to Wayne would cost you an extra $216/month. I don't know where in Queens you live, or what your housing requirements are, but a quick search of north jersey craigslist turns up tons of 1 and 2 BR apts in Wayne, Pompton Lakes, etc for in the $900-$1100 month range.

When I moved out of Queens in 1988, I was paying almost $800/mo for a really nasty 2BR walk-up on the 4th floor of a 100+ year old building, so I've got to believe the rents are cheaper out here.

I have to ask if you run against traffic or with it?

On very lightly travelled roads I'll run on either side, or in the middle if there's a high crown, and move to one side or other when traffic approaches.
Usually keep to the left on busier roads. I often run at night when car traffic is at a minimum.

Just saw this thread. I grew up in Queens, and lived there until my mid 30's, and I can understand how you might feel the way you do with that perspective. But have you considered NJ? If you were to move to someplace like Wayne, you'd be a 35 minute bus ride from Port Authority, and within easy biking distance of some nice roads, hiking trails, parks, etc. It gets pretty rural as you get North of Rt 80 and West of Rt 23, but is still a short hop (easily doable by bike) to public transit. 35 minutes one way probably isn't much different than the amount of time you're spending on the subway right now.

The fare for a monthly pass for the bus is $216, which is on the low end of your estimate. Not chickenfeed, I'll grant you. But not a $400 bump, either. Given that a round trip subway fare is $4.50 from Queens to Manhattan, assuming you don't live in one of the areas where you need to take the bus to the subway (which would double what I'm saying and make it totally a wash), you'd already be paying about $100/mo in carfare, the difference from what you're paying now is only $116/mo.

I don't think I really believed there was such a thing as New Jersey until I got a job there and then moved there. The world doesn't actually end at the Hudson River! :)

Edit: Just saw on the commuting forum that you currently ride into work on your bike, so scratch the part about subway fare. Moving to Wayne would cost you an extra $216/month. I don't know where in Queens you live, or what your housing requirements are, but a quick search of north jersey craigslist turns up tons of 1 and 2 BR apts in Wayne, Pompton Lakes, etc for in the $900-$1100 month range.

When I moved out of Queens in 1988, I was paying almost $800/mo for a really nasty 2BR walk-up on the 4th floor of a 100+ year old building, so I've got to believe the rents are cheaper out here.

Thanks for the suggestions. Yes, I ride my bike to work, but I understand that I might not be able to any more. So far we've looked up in Westchester. But yeah, train fares become quickly prohibitive while rents don't go down significantly. Several people mentioned NJ, but I'm completely unfamiliar with NJ and just have no idea where to look. I even know some who commute from NJ but many complain about bus delays in the morning. A few take the PATH train. Rail seems to be a lot more reliable.

We looked at a nice cottage today for $1,500, nice and quiet location but the train would cost $360 a month! Also, the train station is 1.5 miles away, easily walkable distance, and too short to ride a bike, but there is no way to walk there safely: a few busy roads with no shoulders and zero sidewalks everywhere. It would not be passable in bad weather or after dark. Everybody drives out there.

Yes. If I get the job I'm currently aiming for, it would be a 20mile commute in a day. It's not impossible, but it's not something I want to keep up for very long, simply because it takes so much ~time~. Bicycling is a hobby, but there are other hobbies I would like to spend more time on. There is a grocery store that's 11blocks from me currently, but they have high prices and poor produce. There's another one in the town I would work in that has better prices and better food, so I usually shop there when I can get there anyway. So moving would be a better choice for me, but still, with the first+last+security deposits being so high in this area, it's not an option to move allt he time, I simply can't afford it. I wish there were an easier way.