Fifty Plus (50+) - Why taking the lane can be safer than hugging the shoulder.

I hope this helps 50+ Cyclist overcome any fear of using the middle part of the lane as needed;

Be sure to use the animation in the middle of the page.

http://cyclingsavvy.org/hows-my-driving/

Nice piece, it's common sense to you and I, but I expect a lot of resistance

:popcorn

Nice piece, it's common sense to you and I, but I expect a lot of resistance


What he said! :thumb:

I think a lot of it depends on where you ride. City, yes take up the lane. Country road with one lane going your direction, you might think about taking up the lane but moving over to allow someone to pass so they don't have to cross into oncoming traffic. I think folks that push this agenda are city people that are only thinking "one way".....the city way.

I think when to hug right and when to take the lane is pretty context related. Not trying to start an argument, but I don't think you can really defend a general rule that always applies. But the animation did do a good job of showing situations when taking the lane would be a good idea.

I think a lot of it depends on where you ride. City, yes take up the lane. Country road with one lane going your direction, you might think about taking up the lane but moving over to allow someone to pass so they don't have to cross into oncoming traffic. I think folks that push this agenda are city people that are only thinking "one way".....the city way.

Incorrect....way incorrect.

Over my 40+ years of riding in traffic, I have been in pretty much every environment you can think of...urban, suburban, exburban, rural, etc. Indeed, where I live and ride now is a combination of all of the above.

Here is a rule of thumb that is pretty much common sense - if the lane is wide enough to share safely, share it...otherwise you own it. You simply cannot prevent a passing vehicle from crossing into the next lane on a narrow country road if there isn't room to safely share the lane.

That said, that does not mean that you do not move as far right as safely possible to allow passing traffic to pass a bit easier...again, plain old common sense - and common courtesy.

Riding a bike is an art form... People get in trouble when they start trying to make into an exact science. Taking the lane or not taking the lane depends on a lot of factors. One has to have good instincts as to when to take the lane or not take the lane. (my two cents...)

I can think of several rural roads where if you "take the lane" you will die. Semi's, migrant crew buses, etc. doing 55-60 won't even see you before impact. Yeah, take the lane should be applied in context to the roads and traffic.

I can think of several rural roads where if you "take the lane" you will die. Semi's, migrant crew buses, etc. doing 55-60 won't even see you before impact. Yeah, take the lane should be applied in context to the roads and traffic.

Oh my, how have I survived on those roads all of these years? Oh crap. Did I miss a memo? AM I DEAD? :eek:

Pennsylvania just passed new legislation that requires motorist to give cyclist four feet when passing. In many rural areas the average total lane width is between 26' & 36' (http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/research/safety/09032/index.cfm). The average car width is about 6'. So, if we divide the road width for two lanes we get between 13' and 18'; take out the car's width and we have 7' and 12'. Now subtract the 4' required and you have 3' and 8'. Next, let's assume that the average cyclist's profile is 2'. We're now down to 1' and 6' of road left. Hence, even if you are "hugging" the road as a cyclist, there are lots of roads where the driver must cross the center line to pass. Given this, I would suggest that you are indeed safer, even on rural roads if the driver knows he or she can't "sneak by" in the same lane as the cyclist. Finally, I don't know how the roads are where you live, but in Pennsylvania many of the roads have shoulders that have started to deteriorate quite badly, are filled with other hazards, and would be unsafe for a cyclist. So, while for some it feels counter-intuitive, I agree that taking as much of the lane as needed to be safe makes complete sense. I find it interesting that in parts of Pennsylvania where horse and buggy are still in use, drivers have become accustomed to passing slower moving vehicle without the vehement attitudes so often projected onto cyclists. I think frequent exposure to their presence helps condition drivers over time.

Move to A&S. Where are the mods?

Incorrect....way incorrect.

Over my 40+ years of riding in traffic, I have been in pretty much every environment you can think of...urban, suburban, exburban, rural, etc. Indeed, where I live and ride now is a combination of all of the above.

Here is a rule of thumb that is pretty much common sense - if the lane is wide enough to share safely, share it...otherwise you own it. You simply cannot prevent a passing vehicle from crossing into the next lane on a narrow country road if there isn't room to safely share the lane.

That said, that does not mean that you do not move as far right as safely possible to allow passing traffic to pass a bit easier...again, plain old common sense - and common courtesy.

Uh. Isn't that what I said?

Uh. Isn't that what I said?

While I can’t speak for him, I wonder if he was reacting to your very last line in that post. You do have a tendency to include inflammatory remarks somewhere in many of your posts, and currently living in a very densely populated area, I recognize it would be easy to be offended by that last line.

In VA, if the lane isn't wide enough for a cyclist and a car to share safely, the cyclist is to take the middle of the lane.

Uh. Isn't that what I said?

Nope, you included this wacky notion of moving over so they wouldn't have to cross into the other lane...which is pretty much impossible on many roads with narrow lane widths, country and city. Besides, the key is your safety, not the paint on the road.

In my annual WI trip (22nd coming up) we encounter lots. One day while doing support for the group I was standing at an easy-to-miss turn to alert the kids and adults (half way down a steep hill). A 60+ lady pulled her vehicle up to where I was standing (actually blocking the oncoming lane) and insisted I instruct the bikes to get off the road immediately. She informed me she would have to run over them if they didn't get out of her way -and that doing so would be her only option.

Point I'm making... being in the right isn't always being safe. Lots of morons out there who would prefer to run you over. When I get a line of traffic coming up behind me in a difficult spot I will sometimes just pull off the road and wait.

Recently, I was right-crossed at an intersection on a four-lane road with a shoulder. Typically, I ride in the right had lane and cars pass in the left hand lane. I noticed a car approaching from the rear, and it did not pass. I took the shoulder, and the car immediately right-crossed me at the intersection. I was able to brake sufficiently to avoid a collision. As I have reviewed this situation, I think it would make sense to take the lane unless the car was approaching at a high rate of speed.

If have have a line behind me on a two-lane road with no shoulder, I'll pull over and stop as dbg mentioned above. I try to put myself in the driver's seat of the vehicles behind me. I don't enjoy being delayed by slow drivers, and I do not want to be the source of a delay.

I always take the lane if it can't safely be shared. Because if you leave just enough room for a car to pass you with one inch to spare, it's for certain one will do it. I will move to the right and 'be courteous' when it's practical, but I won't place myself in even more danger just for someone else's convenience.

When I ride my motorcycle by myself I usually ride in the drivers side wheel track. When I ride my bicycle over most roads I ride in the passenger side wheel track. The wheel tracks are the cleanest part of the road with the least debris. On rural roads if there is a good paved shoulder I will often ride on that.

Oh my, how have I survived on those roads all of these years? Oh crap. Did I miss a memo? AM I DEAD? :eek:

Nope, you did most of it (like I did) long before cell phone distracted drivers started driving fast and blind on roadways.

The tours I did in the late '80s and early '90s were a piece of cake compared to the roads today with fast distracted motorists driving big SUVs... heck the national speed limit was 55MPH in many places until the late 80's and wasn't fully repealed until the mid '90s... Roads I used to take had 40MPH speed limits then, and have 65MPH speed limits (regularly violated) today. Roads I toured on in Texas had 50 MPH speed limits and are 75 today...

It's no wonder we have lived this long. Ya wanna take the lane today on a 75MPH country road... and along comes a cell phone user... good luck.

The video has some valid points, but I chuckle at a couple things... first they change the lane widths between the first vid and the second "experienced user" vid, second they DECLARE 3 foot rules, which is NOT the case everywhere.

But ya gotta do what you gotta do. There IS a time and place to take the lane... now someone please tell motorists.

First and foremost make your presence known--don't minimize it--you have the right to be on the road let it be known if necessary!

That is for California where I do most of my riding, but it is a constant struggle because safety is still number one, and there will be no matter what incompetent, ignorant, impatient, and devious drivers (I have better choice words)--so watch out!

On country roads it is nerve racking at times because again some incompetent, ignorant, impatient, and devious drivers will sometimes buzz you! That is dangerous particularly rearview mirrors at our head height!

Wear bright clothe, use bright flashing lights and reflective tape--drivers will have one less excuse in case of an accident! That make you look bigger or imposing as well!

Move to A&S. Where are the mods?

No, don't move to A&S, keep it here where more experienced folk can discuss this... also folks here tend to be a bit more sensible in their debates. Let it ride.

Semi's, migrant crew buses, etc. doing 55-60 won't even see you before impact.

Then you better make yourself more visible, it can be done.

Then you better make yourself more visible, it can be done.

Making yourself more visible only works if the driver is actually looking. Since motorists have been known to hit things as large as slow moving trash trucks, there is evidence that a cyclist can be easily overlooked. It takes more than visibility, it also takes keeping an eye on the mirror and having a bail out plan. It is hardly the "stress free" situation that the video states. At a minimum, you will likely have to put up with angry honking motorists.

there is evidence that a cyclist can be easily overlooked.

hi-vis clothing and a daytime visible tail light...I would be very hard to overlook. Never the less, I do monitor traffic and have a bail out plan, that's common sense, right?

hi-vis clothing and a daytime visible tail light...I would be very hard to overlook. Never the less, I do monitor traffic and have a bail out plan, that's common sense, right?

Yup, but hardly "stress free."

Yup, but hardly "stress free."

I understand. Just put some music on. It will help you relax. ;)

I understand. Just put some music on. It will help you relax. ;)

Nothing quite like the Pastoral Symphony when you are cranking out the miles... Although "Ain't no Mountain High Enough" is pretty good incentive for that next hill. ;)

hi-vis clothing and a daytime visible tail light...I would be very hard to overlook. Never the less, I do monitor traffic and have a bail out plan, that's common sense, right?

Sounds like the most common sense post in the whole thread! :thumb:

At first I thought I had clicked on the wrong forum. This almost always turns out badly because there are VC cyclists and segregated cyclists living side by side. I should add that where I live there seem to be a large group of anarchists or Critical Masochists, wrong way and sidewalk riders. But that is another subject. My first preference is a segregated bike lane or bike path. The fall back position is VC riding and at times that will include taking the lane. But that is most often a last resort. Where I live taking the lane is necessary maybe 2 percent of my rides, mostly getting ready for a left turn. Yes I have been right hooked and short stopped by drivers not paying attention but for the most part the drivers in my area and I are at peace. The only problem I have when most people post about taking the lane is they seem to need a whole lot more lane than the average cyclist. Not always but three feet seems like plenty to me, IMHO.

However once in rural areas we tend t be talking uncharted territory. Just as a story to think about. Last summer some friends and I were heading up a long mountain road to a resort town over looking Palm Springs. The locals are used to seeing cyclist on the road and tend to give us as much room as we need. One of our group members is a firm believer in VC cycling and holds take the lane as a personal mantra. About 2000 feet into the climb a rather large F-350 pulled up behind us and three of us moved as far right as we could without crossing over the fog line or getting in the road gravel. The truck moved left as gave us about 4 feet of space as he passed. About 50 yards up the road was our VC rider who when he saw the truck coming moved left to take the lane. The truck passed him anyway but this time he was close enough that his Detroit Mirrors passed only inches over or to the side of the riders head and helmet.
No the driver should not have gotten his knickers in a twist. But what caused him to show some of us such respect and has so little regard for the other rider? Did the rider have the right to take the lane? Most likely he did. Was it worth challenging someone with more than 8600 pounds gross? That I am not so sure about. I believe we should have bike lanes even on these roads but when we don’t I follow the same rules I did when sailing; we called it the big boat rules. If you are at sea even under sail the big boat rules because if you hold to those under sail have the right of way you may be right and then again you may be at the bottom of the ocean.
Check out an example of the debate in Boston.
http://bostonbiker.org/2011/12/29/relevant-repost-why-vehicular-cycling-failed-or-how-i-learned-to-love-the-bike-lane/ (http://bostonbiker.org/2011/12/29/relevant-repost-why-vehicular-cycling-failed-or-how-i-learned-to-love-the-bike-lane/)

No, don't move to A&S, keep it here where more experienced folk can discuss this... also folks here tend to be a bit more sensible in their debates. Let it ride.

Right. Because unlike the hundreds, if not thousands of other threads on this subject, this is going to be the one where everyone finally sees the light and comes to an agreement about the best way to ride.It will be forever known as the great kumbaya thread on lane sharing. :rolleyes:

the great kumbaya thread on lane sharing. :rolleyes:

been pretty sensible and reasonable so far wouldn't you say?

...But ya gotta do what you gotta do. There IS a time and place to take the lane... now someone please tell motorists.
Since the vast majority of the folks on this forum are motorists, this thread is telling the motorists. When a motorist risks my life and either I or my husband discuss it with him/her, quite often the first words they utter in their defense are, "I'm a cyclist too." They somehow think that because they ride a bike on occasion their driving habits are unassailable.

Right. Because unlike the hundreds, if not thousands of other threads on this subject, this is going to be the one where everyone finally sees the light and comes to an agreement about the best way to ride.It will be forever known as the great kumbaya thread on lane sharing. :rolleyes:
Thanks for clearing that up. I was getting worried that this thread wasn't going to do any good. By the way, the gist of the article/animation/video is how to share the road, not the lane. It was an unsharable lane in the demonstrations. Your small misstatement is why I don't like the "share the road" signs. They are generally misunderstood.

been pretty sensible and reasonable so far wouldn't you say?

That may be bacause we have seen this topic beat to death several times. What some feel is too close and calls for take the lane is anything but too close.
The decission becomes the perview of the lane taker saying they had to do it because they were afraid of the distracted drivers that, Might, cut them off.

The math hardly ever works out. Cars can pass within 3 feet of each other and often do it every day at 65 miles an hour. Do we need a space more than 3 feet between us and a passing car at 45 MPH? There are times when take the lane seems practical but most of the serious lane takers seem to feel it is a first line defense. The question becomes would it still be safe for a car to pass a cyclist if they gave them 3 feet? And if they have three feet plus the 3 feet between them and a car is it necessary to take the lane?

That is why I like marked bike lanes, it takes the quess work out of it.

That may be bacause we have seen this topic beat to death several times. What some feel is too close and calls for take the lane is anything but too close.
The decission becomes the perview of the lane taker saying they had to do it because they were afraid of the distracted drivers that, Might, cut them off.

The math hardly ever works out. Cars can pass within 3 feet of each other and often do it every day at 65 miles an hour. Do we need a space more than 3 feet between us and a passing car at 45 MPH? There are times when take the lane seems practical but most of the serious lane takers seem to feel it is a first line defense. The question becomes would it still be safe for a car to pass a cyclist if they gave them 3 feet? And if they have three feet plus the 3 feet between them and a car is it necessary to take the lane?

That is why I like marked bike lanes, it takes the quess work out of it.
I think the video below the animation does a pretty good job of answering your concerns.

I think the video below the animation does a pretty good job of answering your concerns.

I have no concerns. I believe this is a A and S subject as well as some others. It is the OPs concern not mine take the lane is not my first line of defense. I agree with the blogger I posted, the VC advocates have had years to prove their point and it hasn't worked nor increased cyclists. Time to give it up and try something else. In heavy traffic they should change the name to take your chances. Just in my opinion. When you are outnumbered 99 to 1 I believe you have to learn to go-exist rather than get in their face.

On second thought I will be out of this conversation before it gets ugly. Minds will not be changed and our differences will be exposed rather than our likenesses.

hi-vis clothing and a daytime visible tail light...I would be very hard to overlook. Never the less, I do monitor traffic and have a bail out plan, that's common sense, right?If they can fail to see that 60'-long, 8'-wide, 10'-high tanker truck I drive, they can fail to see you. Don't kid yourself into believing that "hi-vis clothing and a daytime visible tail light" will be enough.

If they can fail to see that 60'-long, 8'-wide, 10'-high tanker truck I drive, they can fail to see you. Don't kid yourself into believing that "hi-vis clothing and a daytime visible tail light" will be enough.

Hence the second sentence in my post. You could comment on that too.

You should ride in a way that maximises your visibility to other road users and gives you adequate room to manoeuvre safely, but no more room than you need. That usually means taking the lane, in town or out of it. Hugging the side of the road often encourages drivers to try to squeeze past you in the presence of oncoming traffic, which is rarely a good idea. And of course, a modicum of situational awareness should allow you to move over and give someone some more room where it is safe to do so.

And really, this discussion should be in A&S. There's a heap of threads on the subject and there is nothing age-specific about safe cycling.

...Point I'm making... being in the right isn't always being safe. Lots of morons out there who would prefer to run you over. When I get a line of traffic coming up behind me in a difficult spot I will sometimes just pull off the road and wait.
This.

Around here, there are many motorists that will NOT ride behind a bicycle for more than a few seconds. I don't think they are all morons or have evil intents, they are just impatient. Whatever, the outcome is the same, they will try to pass, even if they are on a blind hill or curve. On a narrow road, the only defense is to pull over and let them go, hopefully before they kill themselves, an oncoming motorist, & you.

On a narrow road, the only defense is to pull over and let them go, hopefully before they kill themselves, an oncoming motorist, & you.

Sure. I've done this myself, many times, not usually because I was concerned for my safety but simply because it isn't courteous to keep a long line of traffic behind me for minutes at a time when there is no opportunity for them to overtake.
But this isn't an argument against taking the lane. Quite the reverse, in fact. The worst thing to do in this situation would be to squeeze oneself against the edge of the road and offer them an opportunity to think they might squeeze past.

There is 'right' and 'dead right' . . .
After 300 thousand+ miles of bicycling, am still alive and well. Yes, been hit several times and each time driver was cited.
There is no blanket rule for everybody.
When I deem it necessary, will take the full lane; otherwise I believe in "SHARE the road.'
Pedal on!
Rudy/zonatandem

I live in a somewhat rural area. I would be happy to have a contingent of TTL advocates come down and ride around for a week or so to educate the drivers. I'm sure I can take out short term life insurance on the brave souls naming myself as beneficiary. I can see situations where TTL makes sense, but on very high speed country roads the primary advantage would be injury avoidance since the cyclist will most likely be killed in the collision.

Wow. I thought the animation was a great illustration that explained the benefits of taking the lane when hazards exists along the shoulder or when traffic along a narrow road without a shoulder could force a fall or collision.

I'm under the impression that the content of the first post was passed over and that old arguments were rekindled. I did not intend that.

Does anyone really take the lane 100% of the time? Does anyone actually hug the shoulder 100% of the time?

This thread was never meant to be a purity test.

this one has pretty much covered both sides of the argument. Closing before bad things happen.