Bicycle Mechanics - Sturmey-Archer SRF5(W) hub shifting options. HMN420 versus fulcrum arm HSJ905

Looking at the SA 2012/13 calendar (http://www.sturmey-archer.com/userfiles/catalogs/Sturmey-Archer-2012-2013-Catalogue-A0-Low-Res.pdf)I see (pg. 15 HFIS5.PHSV) a fitting kit which seems to use a simple guide-nut (HMN420) in place of the whole gear-selector-guide (HSA650) and fulcrum (HSJ905) arm used in the other fitting kit (HFIS5.YSSS).

Am I right about that? You can just dump that long fulcrum arm (HSJ905) and replace the indicator chain (HSA585) with the appropriate one and the gear-selector-guide with the short guide nut (HMN420)? Please, please, someone, tell me you've done this and it worked like a dream? If so, how is the function of the barrel adjuster used? Does it screw into the hole in the HMN420?

Speaking of said indicator chain, the specification of HSA717 (mark purple) on pg.15 seems at odds with the table on p.56 which says that the indicator type must be Navy-blue (HSA712 ) when used with the short guide nut (HMN420). Does anyone know which bit of the catalogue is correct?

You should be able to do it, but you'll need the fulcrum clip which goes around your chainstay (or seatstay) and acts as a housing stop. You don't need a barrel adjuster, you do all the adjustment with the threaded cable attachment on the end of the indicator.

As for the indicator, I can't be sure, but I assume that the type of indicator you need isn't affected by the fitting kit used, as the fitting kit doesn't affect how the indicator attaches to the hub internals, and how much of it protrudes from the axle in each gear. My X-RD5 came with the fitting kit you describe (plastic pulley, fucrum arm on the axle, standard nut) and also a long guide nut, I assume it's possible to use either.

you'll need the fulcrum clip which goes around your chainstay (or seatstay) and acts as a housing stop.

Looking at the catalogue that I linked to in the previous post, is there a part number that you'd associate with that "fulcrum clip"?



As for the indicator, I can't be sure, but I assume that the type of indicator you need isn't affected by the fitting kit used, as the fitting kit doesn't affect how the indicator attaches to the hub internals, and how much of it protrudes from the axle in each gear. My X-RD5 came with the fitting kit you describe (plastic pulley, fucrum arm on the axle, standard nut) and also a long guide nut, I assume it's possible to use either.

The catalogue specifically says that with the HMN420 "short guide nut" you have to use a different indicator.

To complicate matters further there appear to be Brompton-specific kits available at SJScycles with some interesting parts not mentioned in the S-A catalogue.

Can the SRF5 hub still be purchased? I've hunted high and low, and can't seem to locate either the SRF5 or the XRF5.

The fulcrum lever or arm is not required. You can use a guide nut with no problem as long as you have some kind of cable stop mounted somewhere, either on the seatstay, chainstay, or downtube if you're routing the cable under the bottom bracket. I just finished doing that on a build with a 5 speed SA, and it works like a charm.
Had to use the short guide nut on that particular build to avoid crank interference with the cable, but that was just because of the frame geometry.
You don't need the barrel adjuster, there is enough adjustment available on the threaded end of the indicator, so if you are using a guide nut, don't bother with the fulcrum arm.

Can the SRF5 hub still be purchased? I've hunted high and low, and can't seem to locate either the SRF5 or the XRF5.

They will be available again, but UBS has been out of stock on these for quite a while. Right now, all they have are 28 hole versions.
I called them a few weeks ago to find out when they are getting more, and they couldn't tell me. I'll be grabbing a couple as soon as they come available again.

Looking at the catalogue that I linked to in the previous post, is there a part number that you'd associate with that "fulcrum clip"?



The catalogue specifically says that with the HMN420 "short guide nut" you have to use a different indicator.

To complicate matters further there appear to be Brompton-specific kits available at SJScycles with some interesting parts not mentioned in the S-A catalogue.
That is a possibility, but try the indicator you have first. If it pulls out far enough to get first gear, you're fine. If it's just a little long, a washer or spacer under the nut will help.

Excellent. It's great to get such a detailed answer from someone with experience. My faith in the internets is renewed! I'll post again in a couple of weeks after I've ordered and installed the HMN420 short guide nut.

I notice from your avatar that you're in Ontario. I'm in Québec and have been ordering from the good folks at BikeToolsETC (super service b.t.w.), have you found a more local Canadian store?

Excellent. It's great to get such a detailed answer from someone with experience. My faith in the internets is renewed! I'll post again in a couple of weeks after I've ordered and installed the HMN420 short guide nut.

I notice from your avatar that you're in Ontario. I'm in Québec and have been ordering from the good folks at BikeToolsETC (super service b.t.w.), have you found a more local Canadian store?
I only buy from retailers when I have to. I have a bike business, so I get most of my parts from wholesalers. Not that it's much cheaper than some of the on line retailers mind you.
Once again, it is possible you will need a shorter indicator, and if that's the case, you will need to disregard the instructions that tell you to align the coloured mark with the end of the axle in second gear, and just adjust it so it's slack in 5th and just a teensey bit short of fully taut in 1st.
I should mention that I've had complete success adjusting the older versions of the 5 speed this way, but have yet to try it on a wide range model.

You should be able to do it, but you'll need the fulcrum clip which goes around your chainstay (or seatstay) and acts as a housing stop.

Great. That's what I thought: the big, beefy fulcrum arm just acts as a housing stop. It surprisingly heavily constructed. Thank you very much.

I only buy from retailers when I have to. I have a bike business, so I get most of my parts from wholesalers. Not that it's much cheaper than some of the on line retailers mind you.
Once again, it is possible you will need a shorter indicator, and if that's the case, you will need to disregard the instructions that tell you to align the coloured mark with the end of the axle in second gear, and just adjust it so it's slack in 5th and just a teensey bit short of fully taut in 1st.


I'd have thought that the length of the indicator spindle has nothing to do with the nut used, seeing as the distance it needs to be pulled out of the axle to engage each gear is the same regardless of how it's pulled out.

I can see how you might need a shorter indicator chain with the short guide nut as opposed to the long one or the pulley, because the short nut takes up less of the chain and there's a chance that the end of the indicator chain will hit the end of the barrel adjuster before the hub engages first gear properly, but if you're using a chainstay fulcrum clip, that isn't an issue because you can move the fulcrum further up the stay if that happens.

I must be missing something in this, anyone know what it is?

I'd have thought that the length of the indicator spindle has nothing to do with the nut used, seeing as the distance it needs to be pulled out of the axle to engage each gear is the same regardless of how it's pulled out.

I can see how you might need a shorter indicator chain with the short guide nut as opposed to the long one or the pulley, because the short nut takes up less of the chain and there's a chance that the end of the indicator chain will hit the end of the barrel adjuster before the hub engages first gear properly, but if you're using a chainstay fulcrum clip, that isn't an issue because you can move the fulcrum further up the stay if that happens.

I must be missing something in this, anyone know what it is?
It's quite simple. If the indicator rod is too long for the short nut, it will pull out too far . The chain has to reach far enough into the guide nut for there still to be outward pull at the outer end of it's travel.
When this doesn't happen, the solution is either a longer nut or a shorter indicator rod.

Here's another cable routing option that eliminates the need for a housing stop on the chain stay. I routed a housing from the shifter to a downtube cable stop, and then bare cable though the guide under the bottom bracket to the indicator. Works well, but the cable runs quite close to the crank arm, so it might not work in every application.
When using stay mounted stops, my preference is to run the cable along the top tube and mount the cable stop on the seat stay.
This photo was taken from the thread in C&V detailing this build. I'm expecting the owner of the bike to bring it by today, so I'll take some more close up photos.
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5271/6905773278_63b595621c_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/9604948@N04/6905773278/)

It's quite simple. If the indicator rod is too long for the short nut, it will pull out too far . The chain has to reach far enough into the guide nut for there still to be outward pull at the outer end of it's travel.
When this doesn't happen, the solution is either a longer nut or a shorter indicator rod.

Oh, right, I get it now, thanks!

Can the SRF5 hub still be purchased? I've hunted high and low, and can't seem to locate either the SRF5 or the XRF5.

The SRF5 hasn't been manufactured since 2008.

Soma Fabrications has the SRF5(W).

As promised, here's some close up pics of the under the BB cable routing.

http://i39.tinypic.com/fef8t2.jpg

As seen here, the crank just barely clears the cable, but if it clears, a millimeter is as good as a mile.

http://i42.tinypic.com/1zq5xsx.jpg

Cable routing to the downtube stop.

http://i40.tinypic.com/nl4uf4.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/sm62aw.jpg

After close inspection, I found the indicator was coming out far enough that getting first gear was a bit problematic, so I put a thin lock nut behind the guide nut. I'm going to look about a shorter indicator for him though so we can eliminate the extra nut.

I wonder if this nut could be used on older non-W S/XRF5 hubs?

I wonder if this nut could be used on older non-W S/XRF5 hubs?

The build I just detailed above was the older version.

As seen here, the crank just barely clears the cable, but if it clears,
a millimeter is as good as a mile.

well .. shifting the chainring onto the inside face of the crank arm and the right side
of the BB spindle that much longer would, perhaps, help..
And shift the pedal outboard.
I see plucking that cable with your heel as you pedal could be an issue..
[unless pedaling pigeon toed ]

The roller at the top of the seat tube and housing stop on the front of the top tube
worked well for :50: years on all those AW3s.. eliminated that interference point.
running the cable down the seat-stay.

The SRF5 hasn't been manufactured since 2008.

Soma Fabrications has the SRF5(W).
Thanks. Their price looks good for the hub. Other than flange sizes and OLD, I wonder if there are any other differences between the XRF5(W) and the SRF5(W).

The build I just detailed above was the older version.

Ah, this could be useful for me.
I tried using an AW three speed nut with the SRF5. Friction was increased but it seemed to work OK, then after about a month I started getting problems shifting to the 5th gear. I realized that the indicator had gotten very slightly bent as the nut wasn't a perfect fit and was exerting a lateral force on the indicator spindle thingy particularly when in first gear. So having gotten slightly bent it was no longer sliding back in for 5th.

Could someone tell me the length of the guide-nut please?

Could someone tell me the length of the guide-nut please?
Short version, 17mm, long version 25mm.

well .. shifting the chainring onto the inside face of the crank arm and the right side
of the BB spindle that much longer would, perhaps, help..
And shift the pedal outboard.
I see plucking that cable with your heel as you pedal could be an issue..
[unless pedaling pigeon toed ]

The roller at the top of the seat tube and housing stop on the front of the top tube
worked well for :50: years on all those AW3s.. eliminated that interference point.
running the cable down the seat-stay.
Shifting the chainring to the inside of the spider is not really an option with the Sturmey Archer track crankset as there are no shoulders to support it on the inside. Besides, it ruins the look I think. I have resorted to that strategy in the past where chainline and chainstay interference were a problem.

From what I've been able to ascertain, the new W version 5 speed uses the Mark Yellow indicator with the long guide nut and the fulcrum lever with roller, and Mark Blue with the short guide nut.
All of the old version 5 speeds I've handled used the Mark Blue indicator, including this one. Near as I can figure out, the only 5 speed indicator that's shorter is the Mark green.
3 speed indicators are not interchangeable with the 5 speed as the rods are too thick to enter the hole.

Other than flange sizes and OLD, I wonder if there are any other differences between the XRF5(W) and the SRF5(W).

Nope.

From what I've been able to ascertain, the new W version 5 speed uses the Mark Yellow indicator with the long guide nut and the fulcrum lever with roller, and Mark Blue with the short guide nut.

I think it's actually Navy Blue for use with the short guide nut (HMN420).

As promised, here's some close up pics of the under the BB cable routing.

http://i39.tinypic.com/fef8t2.jpg

That gives really nice clean lines. I would not have predicted that it would work: surely there's a huge amount of friction going around the bottom bracket like that?

Also do you use S.A. specific cable housing and cables?

That gives really nice clean lines. I would not have predicted that it would work: surely there's a huge amount of friction going around the bottom bracket like that?

Also do you use S.A. specific cable housing and cables?

Traditional cable routing for derailleur bikes is under the bottom bracket, you can buy plastic guides to go under there, but not all bikes have them. It does add friction, but not usually enough to cause trouble.

Also, I'm not using an SA-specific housing with my X-RD5, nor am I using the SA cable. It seems to work fine with standard gear cable housing, and the cable fitting on the shifter I have is for a standard cable.

I think it's actually Navy Blue for use with the short guide nut (HMN420).
You're looking at the data for the W series. The blue indicator is standard for the old version. I don't know if there is a distinction between blue and navy blue.

That gives really nice clean lines. I would not have predicted that it would work: surely there's a huge amount of friction going around the bottom bracket like that?

Also do you use S.A. specific cable housing and cables?
Not enough friction to be an issue.
Only the classic 3 speed trigger shifters and the frame mounted chopper shifters require a Sturmey Archer specific cable. All modern design Sturmey Archer shifters use good old every day standard shift cable. As for housing, SIS type housing works great if using housing stops that fully support the end of the housing in the stop. If using a fulcrum clip that leaves parts of the circumference of the housing end unsupported, you need to use a coil type housing. Brake cable housing works just fine.

Do I correctly understand that the bike in the photo has adjustable vertical drop-outs?

I want to use a Sturmey Archer S-RK5 (W) (http://www.sturmey-archer.com/products/hubs/cid/4/id/61) on a Salsa Ala Carte, which has their Alternator adjustable drop-outs, and would like to know the correct lock washer to use with vertical drop-outs. Would that be the HMW534?

I've gone over the rest of the thread, and I think I've got most of the information I need, such as using the HMN420 guide nut and a cable stop to eliminate the need for the fulcrum arm.

The Yellow indicator rod came with the hub, but, I'm not quite clear as to whether that will work with the HMN420 guide nut. When I change to the HMN420, do I need to use the (Navy) Blue indicator?

Is there anything else I need to know?