Recumbent - Bacchetta Strada vrs. Bacchetta Giro

Hiya Kids!

Well, I have my new Bacchetta Giro on the road, and on the ride into work this morning it was easy to make comparisons between the two. I have ridden the Strada some 1300 miles since I got it, but of course this is only my second ride on the Giro.

The best way to explain the difference is to compare them with cars...the Strada (Bacchetta calls it one of their performance bikes) is like getting into a Corvette. It is a bit small for me, a tight fit. It is FAST, and wants to go faster than I willing to go some times. At speed it's a bit loose, and sometimes wants to get weird in the corners. The Giro is a JEEP. A bit looser, slower, easier to get going from a stop, but with less top end. The riding position is more relaxed, with more elbow bend and a bit more room to move around. The bars are higher and wider and drop farther...but it's SLOW compared to the Strada. I think much of this is the previous owners selection of Kenda Quest 65psi tires. The ride seems soft and bouncy on these tires compared to the 650-23c's running at 100+ psi on the Strada.

My average speed on the Strada had climbed up to 17.5 or so on my 16.5 mile round trip commute. The ride into work today, the odometer showed 7.86 miles (Strada showed 8.23 usually) at an average speed of 15.9 mph. Some of this my be speedometer error???

I'm thinking that some 100psi tires might be in order for the Giro, to decrease the rolling resistance and give me back some of my top end. Other than that, it's a fun ride and a nice bike. I still have a couple little things to do to it to get it 'tweeked' and working the way I want, but I'm planning on the Giro becoming my regular ride and will probably sell the Strada.

Tractor Tom in Okeechobee, FL

Love my Giro26. I am considering a better wheelset also, and eventually lighter folding tires, but for now am content to muddle along in the 13's. I am considering a slightly longer bar set too, as I find I am almost fully extended. If I tip the bars back more with the setscrew, I bump my shins. I may need to experiment some with the riser length too, but of course there I am ultimately limited by cable run length and the riser itself.

My average speed on the Strada had climbed up to 17.5 or so on my 16.5 mile round trip commute. The ride into work today, the odometer showed 7.86 miles (Strada showed 8.23 usually) at an average speed of 15.9 mph. Some of this my be speedometer error???



I don't know which one of them is correct, but if you adjust for the distance to be 8.23 miles, then you averaged 16.6 mph on the Giro.

Or if the distance actually is 7.86 miles, then you were averaging 16.7 on the Strada.

Good point Tom... I don't know which one was correct, but I have a way to check it...the bike path along Lake Okeechobee has mile markers painted on the asphalt. I can do a ten mile run and see how far off I am with each bike and then make adjustments. I know the amount of effort that I put out on the Giro is MUCH higher to keep the speed up and will be ordering some 100psi tires tonight after work.

Thanks for the math lesson!

Tractor Tom in Okeechobee, FL

Once you put new tires on the Giro you will need to do a new rollout for the bike comp anyway. The more times you do the rollout seated on the bike, the more accurate you can be--just average the measurements and use that.

I put Schwalbe Marathons on my Giro just a week ago, because I already had a cut down to the threads on the Kwests. Marathons are not built for speed, that's for sure.

I like the Giro, but rather than buy a new wheelset, I think I'd save the coinage for a CA2.0. Those things are hot.

I have Schwalbe Marathon Racers on one of my bents. They roll very nice. But they do not provide anywhere near the flat protection of the standard Marathon.

I take it you have the Giro with the small front wheel, not the Giro 26. One upgrade to consider is the Euromesh or even carbon seat both to drop the weight (more important if your route has climbing) and to get a seat intended for a more reclined, aerodynamic position.

Since some taller riders have upgraded their Giro 26's to take 622/700C wheels, you might be able to put a larger wheel on the rear (disk brakes would make this easier), providing you could increase the front wheel diameter similarly to keep the steering geometry essentially the same. Search Bachetta's site and BentRiderOnline for details.

As for cyclocomputer calibration, the late Sheldon Brown's site has probably the most precise, accurate and fun (you get to go for a bike ride; no fiddling with a tape measure and riding a straight line!) way of calibrating a cyclocomputer to your exact tire size and pressure: Ride a measured course (http://sheldonbrown.com/cyclecomputer-calibration.html#measuredmile) (Google Maps or the like makes this relatively easy).

I take it you have the Giro with the small front wheel, not the Giro 26. One upgrade to consider is the Euromesh or even carbon seat both to drop the weight (more important if your route has climbing) and to get a seat intended for a more reclined, aerodynamic position.

Since some taller riders have upgraded their Giro 26's to take 622/700C wheels, you might be able to put a larger wheel on the rear (disk brakes would make this easier), providing you could increase the front wheel diameter similarly to keep the steering geometry essentially the same. Search Bachetta's site and BentRiderOnline for details.

As for cyclocomputer calibration, the late Sheldon Brown's site has probably the most precise, accurate and fun (you get to go for a bike ride; no fiddling with a tape measure and riding a straight line!) way of calibrating a cyclocomputer to your exact tire size and pressure: Ride a measured course (http://sheldonbrown.com/cyclecomputer-calibration.html#measuredmile) (Google Maps or the like makes this relatively easy).

I guess I don't know how you can tell I have a Giro 20, not the 26, but your hunch is wrong. I have the Giro 26, and I'm a LARGE rider at 6'-4" and 240lbs. I ride the Giro because I have had the euromesh seat and can't stand it, so I have made sure to stay with the recurve seat as it fits me well and doesn't rub on the edges of my pelvis like the euromesh seat does. Also, I live in Okeechobee, FL, which is as flat as a pool table, so climbing is not an issue. As near as I can tell, much of the issue is tires, so I ordered some 'cheapie' 100 psi tires to replace the Kenda 65 psi's that came on the bike. I expect things to get faster just after I get the new tires on the bike. Thanks for the link about the cyclometer calibration...I'm thinking the one on the new Giro is more accurate than the one on my Strada. I'm thinking the Strada was fast by about 5%, and so what I am getting on the Giro makes sense now.

Many thanks,

Tractor Tom in Okeechobee, FL

Hey Tom, does your Giro26 have the fender/caliper tab projecting into the rear wheelwell? If not, I believe you can run a wide variety of 700c wheel/tire combos. If it has the tab, then you are limited to the 700x28's or smaller I think. I have not tried any 700c's on mine, or even a 650 set because I don't have any disc compatible 650c or 700c wheels... :(

You know Vic, I don't know that I want to go to the expense of going to a bigger wheel. My Strada has 650x23c tires on it, and I wanted the Giro for the 26x1.25 tires as they are twice the as big at the ones on the Strada and more robust. What I need is a hard compound tire in the 26x1.25 size with a high pressure rating (100psi) that will roll easier. I have a set on the way, and expect to have them on sometime next week. I'll post an update about it after I have a chance to test them.

Tractor Tom in Okeechobee, FL

Let me know how you like the new tires and if you have any wear issues or handling. I am thinking of getting new tires later this year, and am looking at Contis and Duranos either in a 1.1 folder.

Can someone tell me if the Giro ATT frame can fit really fat tires like a Schwalbe Big Apple 2.35? I saw a pic of a Giro26 with 2.5"X26" MTB tires and disc brakes (had a mountain fork)...but found no info

I've had reasonable luck so far running Ritchey Top Slicks in 26 x 1.0 folders.

I don't have a lot of miles on them yet, time will tell.

Sempet Fi

Can someone tell me if the Giro ATT frame can fit really fat tires like a Schwalbe Big Apple 2.35? I saw a pic of a Giro26 with 2.5"X26" MTB tires and disc brakes (had a mountain fork)...but found no info
At least on my older, steel, Giro 26 the limiting factor is not the wheel fitting in the frame, the problem is that tires over 50mm wide result in the chain lightly rubbing the tire sidewall when using your largest, innermost, rear cog. Thus with a Schwalbe Big Apple 55-559 the chain rubbed on the tire sidewall while a 50-559 Big Apple (which is more like 48 mm wide) did not rub.

The exact tire width and diameter depends some on the width of the rim it is mounted on. Schwalbe USA's web site (http://www.schwalbetires.com/tech_info/tire_dimensions) has a nice listing of the maximum/minimum diameter and width of the Big Apple and several of their other tires when mounted on different width rims.

Since the innermost cog's distance from the centerline is essentially constant for a given dropout width, I think a 50mm wide tire is about the limit. Mountain diamond frames do not get the chain rubbing on the sidewall at this width because the chainring is so close to the tire that the chain is held further away. Not so with the longer chainline on a recumbent high racer design like the Giro 26.

At least on my older, steel, Giro 26 the limiting factor is not the wheel fitting in the frame, the problem is that tires over 50mm wide result in the chain lightly rubbing the tire sidewall when using your largest, innermost, rear cog. Thus with a Schwalbe Big Apple 55-559 the chain rubbed on the tire sidewall while a 50-559 Big Apple (which is more like 48 mm wide) did not rub.

The exact tire width and diameter depends some on the width of the rim it is mounted on. Schwalbe USA's web site (http://www.schwalbetires.com/tech_info/tire_dimensions) has a nice listing of the maximum/minimum diameter and width of the Big Apple and several of their other tires when mounted on different width rims.

Since the innermost cog's distance from the centerline is essentially constant for a given dropout width, I think a 50mm wide tire is about the limit. Mountain diamond frames do not get the chain rubbing on the sidewall at this width because the chainring is so close to the tire that the chain is held further away. Not so with the longer chainline on a recumbent high racer design like the Giro 26.

Thanks for the info! Just curious, did you like the ride of those 50-599 Big Apples on your Steel Giro? or did they slow you down too much?

... did you like the ride of those 50-599 Big Apples on your Steel Giro? or did they slow you down too much?
The ride is so much more comfortable than the Continental Sport Contact I had on there. I am using an Euromesh seat reclined to about 29 degreees from horizontal and the comfort thickness (but still quite firm) Ventisit pad instead of the softer, stock filter foam pad.

As for speed, I am not fast enough for it to make much difference. For long rides on less that ideal roads it might even be faster because the softer ride would be less fatiguing. In front, where the ride is less affected by tire volume, you can (and I have) used a narrower front tire. On the other hand, since a highracer does not provide as good a view of the road immediately in front of you, a wider tire in front is less likely to drop into and then get caught in a parallel crack in the road, causing a crash.

I still plan on trying the 700c wheels on it because in a given tire width the larger diameter wheel combined with a bit larger volume of air in the tire should give a somewhat smoother and potentially faster ride.

I had not heard of Ventisit and just visited their website. May I ask how much it costs? I'm still not totally reconciled to the Euromesh seat yet.

They come in different sizes for different recumbent seats and in two thicknesses, standard and comfort. They differ from the stock filter foam in that they are firmer, do not compress over the duration of a ride, do not snag clothing, and ventilate much better. Some find them too easy to move/slide/wiggle on. If clothing snagging is your major problem and you are not looking for better ventilation, Bachetta also sells a cover for the Euromesh that reportedly eliminates that problem.

Cost is about $100. If you go to BentRiderOnline and the forum on Bacchetta's web site, these occasionally come up for sale. You can also search thise sites for how others have liked/disliked this pad and other pads. Attaching them is done by a variety of methods. I sewed Velcro on the Ventisit back with monofilament fishing line in the same locations as on the stock seat and velcro the Ventisit on the Euromesh. Others report using industrial adhesive backed Velcro in a similar manner, gluing the velro on, or alternatively using cable ties (which makes the Ventisit more difficult to remove if you want to wash it or mount seat bags or water bottle holders.

p.s. There is another, no cost, alternative to the stock foam. Remove the stock pad, readjust the seat accordingly, and ride with no pad at all. While most do not find this comfortable due to where their shoulder blades rest on the seat frame etc., evidently some find this perfectly comfortable.

Have you cut the bottom most forward most cable tie on the mesh? This is a very common modification; again searching the Bentrideronline and Bachettta forums has more on this.

Giro,

Thank you for the very informative post on seat pads!

Bentupcycles sells the Ventisit pads.
http://tinyurl.com/c478ujm
My Baron with a Ventisit pad.

If you're after just enough padding to avoid bruises, and light weight is more important than ventilation, then a Zotefoam pad is what you want.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-F9_JR-p6zLA/T3J50RzLlHI/AAAAAAAAAgE/9FWZidoa-lc/s1600/100_0976.jpg
The 3/4" Zotefoam pad is shown, there is also a thinner 1/2" pad, which is what I use on my other bikes. They're in the $75-100 range, depending on which you get. They're made by Don "Airwolf" Smith, at bbmracing (at) yahoo.com. Don has sold hundreds of these pads.

I have a set on the way, and expect to have them on sometime next week. I'll post an update about it after I have a chance to test them.

Any updates on how things have progressed with the new tyres?

Also for anyone who might know ... how critical is the weight limit on the 26 ATT? I am probably a touch under it at the moment without a gear load. Would that be a concern?

Thanks
Andrew

Any updates on how things have progressed with the new tyres?

Also for anyone who might know ... how critical is the weight limit on the 26 ATT? I am probably a touch under it at the moment without a gear load. Would that be a concern?

Thanks
Andrew

You should get the steel frame if you will be over the limit for the aluminum one.

If going over the limit didn't violate the frame warranty, then it would only be a matter of how lucky you feel. Chances are everything would be fine if you weren't much over, and you rode with some mechanical 'sympathy'. But if there worst were to happen and the frame cracked, then Bacchetta would be within their rights to not honor the warranty and give you a new frame.

You should get the steel frame if you will be over the limit for the aluminum one..

Or stick to my diamond fame aluminum and carbon fibre bikes then as they don't seem to have a problem ... starting to wonder about the quality and/or design of the recumbents if they have to had such restrictions in place. My carbon bike has carried me over 20,000 km without drama.

Is there something about the design of LWB recumbents that makes their frames require such a weight restriction?

Andrew

Is there something about the design of LWB recumbents that makes their frames require such a weight restriction?


Most bents are not triangulated, at least not over the majority of their length (if at all). It's easy to take for granted, as a structure to support weight, how inherently wonderful a triangulated structure like a DF frame is.

Also, partly, I think it's a 'cultural' thing. Bents always have had weight limits. The people designing them haven't ever had a problem recognizing that their frames have an upper weight limit in mind. DF companies making gossamer frames probably wish they could spec a weight limit too, but don't, because they would be the only ones doing it, and their sales would suffer if they did. So they take their lumps, and replace frames when they have to.

If the idea of having to select a 'bent that has an adequate weight limit for you and your anticipated cargo so you can preserve a frame warranty significantly offends you, then you shouldn't buy a 'bent. Because I don't think you will find one that doesn't have a specified weight limit, and you can be sure that any 'bent with a 'serious' frame warranty will have that weight limit as a condition of the warranty. Those are the facts. I am only the messenger, don't shoot me.

If the idea of having to select a 'bent that has an adequate weight limit for you and your anticipated cargo so you can preserve a frame warranty significantly offends you, then you shouldn't buy a 'bent. Because I don't think you will find one that doesn't have a specified weight limit, and you can be sure that any 'bent with a 'serious' frame warranty will have that weight limit as a condition of the warranty. Those are the facts. I am only the messenger, don't shoot me.

Thanks for answering my question anyway.

Cheers
Andrew

The best way to explain the difference is to compare them with cars...the Strada (Bacchetta calls it one of their performance bikes) is like getting into a Corvette. It is a bit small for me, a tight fit. It is FAST, and wants to go faster than I willing to go some times. At speed it's a bit loose, and sometimes wants to get weird in the corners. The Giro is a JEEP. A bit looser, slower, easier to get going from a stop, but with less top end. The riding position is more relaxed, with more elbow bend and a bit more room to move around. The bars are higher and wider and drop farther...but it's SLOW compared to the Strada. I think much of this is the previous owners selection of Kenda Quest 65psi tires. The ride seems soft and bouncy on these tires compared to the 650-23c's running at 100+ psi on the Strada.



I just purchased a Giro 26att and I am coming off of a bike-e. As such, my experience is nearly the opposite. It may be an issue of being experienced on the bike-e (just considering when the bike-e was last made, it is obvious that I have a lot of experience on it… yes, I purchased it new).

That being said, I feel that the bike-e was more stable at low speed and easier to start on, both from a stop and in general as a “trainer” ‘bent. However, the Giro feels more stable at speed and feels faster. I am using an i-gotU GT-800 for my GPS and it entirely messes up average speed; however, the Giro feels faster based in perception and glances at the GPS.

The bike-e feels much more rideable on paths and minor trails. I think that part of the issue is that, at 5’6”, even the “standard” is too big for me. I think that once my finances stabilize I am going to put 24” wheels on it, as is mentioned here in the Giro blog (http://www.bacchettabikes.com/blog/news/giro-26-wheel-options).

Dual 24” (507 or 520mm). These wheel sizes only work with disc brakes. 507mm wheels and tires are generally found on adult BMX bikes, and most of the rubber available comes in wider sizes. 520mm wheels and tires are generally found on kids’ road bikes, and the rubber for them is mostly the skinny roadie type.

I personally ride a Giro-26 set up with 24”, 507x38c, 100psi, micro knobby tires and it makes a great commuter. I’m six feet tall and can ride the stock wheels with no problems, but with fatter tires the bike gets a bit tall for my taste. With the smaller 507’s, I can get the cushier ride of the fatter tires and the seat actually gets a little closer to the ground which makes starting and stopping a no brainer (see more about this setup below).



MORE RAMBLING ON THE SUBJECT OF WHEELS
As mentioned above, I have a Giro26 built up with 24” (507mm) wheels and 1.5” tires for commuting and touring. (These wheels were custom made at Power-On Cycling http://poweroncycling.com/) (http://poweroncycling.com/%29). Since these wheels have disc hubs and the correct rear hub spacing of 135mm, there was no need to change anything else on the bike. I simply removed the stock wheels and replaced them with the 24’s.

This set-up drops the seat height about one inch or so, and even thought it doesn’t seem like much, it makes getting a foot flat on the ground much easier and that’s something I really like, especially when loaded down for touring. The smaller rear wheel also gives me better gearing for hauling a load. And opposed to the dual 20” wheels, the 24’s look natural and work well with the stock gearing.



The only other thing I have noticed is that the Giro really needs a headrest. So, on the list of things I expect to change: wheel size (smaller), thicker seat pad, some sort of a head rest, and I expect I will eventually switch out the grip shifters. I don’t particularly like grip shifters and the angle of the handlebars makes the shifters particularly hard to turn.

All that being said, it seems durable and well suited to long commutes. As stated, once moving, it is stable at speed. It is easy to ride it faster than the bike-e and it handles road bumps pretty well. The seat is comfortable (even if it does need a headrest). I really think most of my complaints with it will be fixed by smaller wheels.

From reading the OP's post and riding my EZ-1 sx with 65 psi kenda's I wonder how much the tire effected the feel/speed overall.
The two bikes look so similar to my untrained eye.

I risked a blow out on my 65 psi kenda's raising the pressure to 75 psi (for a short test) and I felt a real diff at my top speed and acceleration.

I settled on 70 psi but still those kenda's felt like anchors all the time, especially when going fast

... I risked a blow out on my 65 psi kenda's raising the pressure to 75 psi (for a short test) ...

The maximum pressure rating on the sidewall of bicycle tires is partially determined by the tire manufacturer's lawyers. So long as your tire bead is properly seated in the rim it is most probably safe to exceed that pressure rating by a significant amount. I've heard/read somewhere that high-quality name-brand tires can be pumped up to around 50% higher than the # on the tire without risk of blowing the tire. I feel secure in stating the 10 psi over to which you pumped yours was perfectly safe. I expect most of the pressure gauges built into pumps are inaccurate by at least that amount in the first place. Unless you are using a high-quality gauge you're probably only getting an approximation of the actual pressure readout on your gauge.
The usual problem with tire pressures in my experience is blowing the tire bead off the rim because the tire isn't properly seated. Also, over-pressurizing tires can cause the tread to wear faster.

"Your mileage may vary" as they say.

According to Berto, the way the pressure rating is determined is by mounting the tire correctly, then inflating it until it blows out. The max pressure is set at half that number. Roughly.