Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - New Triple Triangle Frame

Anyone seen this yet? It was in an add on Facebook....

http://www.iminusd.com/breakbrake17-transfer-frame/

Yes we have. There was a thread about it around here somewhere, the company is a BMX company correct?

Oops....that's what I get for not searching first.

trip tri w/ downward sloping tt doesn't look the best, imo.

Ahhhh... more copies of stuff that used to be coveted years ago.

Why be original when you can just copy stuff that people used to like?

Looks like the GT track frame...

I think the frame looks sick.

Any word on price?

Looks like the GT track frame...

Agreed, but for that price I can acquire the frame it was based on.

Ahhhh... more copies of stuff that used to be coveted years ago.

Why be original when you can just copy stuff that people used to like?



Nothing is original. Steal from anywhere that resonates with inspiration or fuels your imagination. Devour old films, new films, music, books, paintings, photographs, poems, dreams, random conversations, architecture, bridges, street signs, trees, clouds, bodies of water, light and shadows. Select only things to steal from that speak directly to your soul. If you do this, your work (and theft) will be authentic. Authenticity is invaluable; originality is nonexistent. And don’t bother concealing your thievery — celebrate it if you feel like it. In any case, always remember what Jean-Luc Godard said: “It’s not where you take things from — it’s where you take them to.”

# (http://www.moviemaker.com/directing/article/jim_jarmusch_2972/)! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jarmusch)

# (http://www.moviemaker.com/directing/article/jim_jarmusch_2972/)! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jarmusch)

But that didn't "take" the design anywhere. They just straight up copied it and are selling it.

They weren't "inspired". They wish they had made the frame and had the rights to sell it...so they made the frame and are selling it without the rights.

The last 10 years of "inspiration" has been worse than Pop Art.

- Take something old that was unique and that people liked
- Copy it
- Change the color (or not)
- Hype it up on the internet
- ???
- Profit

And the ??? is really:
- Sell it to people who have been primed to like certain things for no other reason than that they "should" like it because of some unknown to them aesthetic that they don't have or even "get". But, by buying said item, the not only prove that they "get it" they also have "it". (But they still never "got it". But don't tell their friends that.)


The inspiration:

http://prollyisnotprobably.com/old/assets_c/2011/01/ThomasGT-02-PINP-thumb-500x346-7993.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_D_gA1kMwT6o/SfPwiWCnvKI/AAAAAAAAB0g/9E3rBqQJL2Y/s400/gt-pursuit.jpg

The problem is that it is ridiculously easy to copy, produce, and distribute any product today. So, it happens.

But what if I really want a high quality GT triple triangle, but want to buy new? Instead of settling with their current selections (Gutterball lol), I would like a frame of comparable geometry but with high quality tubing. Unless I can stumble upon a NOS goldmine of Pulses and GTBs, I would be willing throw my money at some Taiwanese company that understands US marketing trends better than some US companies.

I don't really care where the creative inspiration came from. Its not like I'll feel it when I ride the thing. Or feel it when I'm soaking in the envy of having a sweet frame.

# (http://www.moviemaker.com/directing/article/jim_jarmusch_2972/)! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jarmusch)

ALSO...Jim Jarmusch’s Golden Rules were about Directing MOVIES. Not about product design.

In literature there are 7 basic plots:

man vs. nature
man vs. the environment
man vs. machines/technology
man vs. the supernatural
man vs. self
man vs. god/religion


These can be expounded into these 36:

Supplication (in which the Supplicant must beg something from Power in authority)
Deliverance
Crime Pursued by Vengeance
Vengeance taken for kindred upon kindred
Pursuit
Disaster
Falling Prey to Cruelty of Misfortune
Revolt
Daring Enterprise
Abduction
The Enigma (temptation or a riddle)
Obtaining
Enmity of Kinsmen
Rivalry of Kinsmen
Murderous Adultery
Madness
Fatal Imprudence
Involuntary Crimes of Love (example: discovery that one has married one’s mother, sister, etc.)
Slaying of a Kinsman Unrecognized
Self-Sacrificing for an Ideal
Self-Sacrifice for Kindred
All Sacrificed for Passion
Necessity of Sacrificing Loved Ones
Rivalry of Superior and Inferior
Adultery
Crimes of Love
Discovery of the Dishonor of a Loved One
Obstacles to Love
An Enemy Loved
Ambition
Conflict with a God
Mistaken Jealousy
Erroneous Judgement
Remorse
Recovery of a Lost One
Loss of Loved Ones.


That's what Jarmusch was talking about when he says, "Nothing is original."

But what if I really want a high quality GT triple triangle, but want to buy new? Instead of settling with their current selections (Gutterball lol), I would like a frame of comparable geometry but with high quality tubing. Unless I can stumble upon a NOS goldmine of Pulses and GTBs, I would be willing throw my money at some Taiwanese company that understands US marketing trends better than some US companies.

I don't really care where the creative inspiration came from. Its not like I'll feel it when I ride the thing. Or feel it when I'm soaking in the envy of having a sweet frame.

What if I want a 1973 Porsche 911 RS? It was only made in 1973 and 1974.

What do I do? Should a Taiwanese company be allowed to make replicas inspired by that car?

http://files.conceptcarz.com/img/Porsche/73_Porsche_911_Carrera_RS_Cpe_DV-06_PBI-02.jpg

I think the "why fix what isn't broken" factor comes into play here too. I think innovation on a great frame for innovations sake is trying to change something that's already good. It's not like we have a problem with a million people making a bike that is shaped like this:
http://cache0.bigcartel.com/product_images/33654776/PY5023.JPG
http://superbbicycle.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/green_360_detail.jpg
http://cache1.bigcartel.com/product_images/56054951/excel-2-wm.jpg

But what if I really want a high quality GT triple triangle, but want to buy new? Instead of settling with their current selections (Gutterball lol), I would like a frame of comparable geometry but with high quality tubing. Unless I can stumble upon a NOS goldmine of Pulses and GTBs, I would be willing throw my money at some Taiwanese company that understands US marketing trends better than some US companies.

I don't really care where the creative inspiration came from. Its not like I'll feel it when I ride the thing. Or feel it when I'm soaking in the envy of having a sweet frame.

This is what I mean when I wrote:

The problem is that it is ridiculously easy to copy, produce, and distribute any product today. So, it happens.

People want. People feel like they deserve to have, no matter what.

That combined with the fact this it is now easy to produce means that it happens.

And what's the effect?

The consumer gets something close to what he wants...but it's never what he really wants. And the value and prestige of the original rare bird are diminished.


Want. Want. Want.

ALSO...Jim Jarmusch’s Golden Rules were about Directing MOVIES. Not about product design.
...
That's what Jarmusch was talking about when he says, "Nothing is original."

Sure, specifically he's talking about movies. But I think in general he's talking about ideas.


What if I want a 1973 Porsche 911 RS? It was only made in 1973 and 1974.

What do I do? Should a Taiwanese company be allowed to make replicas inspired by that car?



I want one too! Maybe Ruf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruf_Automobile) will make one for us?

But perhaps the whole replica/kit car market is more relevant to this discussion.

Are you saying it's a copy because it has the triple triangle design or because it is actually a copy of the GTB or Pulse (same dimensions/geometry)?

If it's the former I guess we should start flaming Geekhouse, Yamaguchi and plenty of other high end builders for using triple triangle designs and for their lack of ingenuity. Right?

Sure, specifically he's talking about movies. But I think in general he's talking about ideas.



I want one too! Maybe Ruf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruf_Automobile) will make one for us?

But perhaps the whole replica/kit car market is more relevant to this discussion.

I consider RUF a custom shop, not mass producing (or small batch producing) a replica.


RUFs are built from unmarked Porsche bodies and chassis. When a chassis arrives, RUF builds their own independent work into the car. Because RUF installs many of their own-made parts (not to be confused with badge engineering), the company is recognized as a manufacturer by the German government.



Are you saying it's a copy because it has the triple triangle design or because it is actually a copy of the GTB or Pulse (same dimensions/geometry)?

If it's the former I guess we should start flaming Geekhouse, Yamaguchi and plenty of other high end builders for using triple triangle designs and for their lack of ingenuity. Right?

It's a copy of the GTB design but using a modern fork.

I guess this is a copy of the USA GT you posted as well?

http://www.pedalroom.com/p/geekhouse-rockcity-1830_4.jpg

And this Land Shark?

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lehc5b4YDY1qzqxkx.jpg

Or this Colossi?

http://www.pedalconsumption.com/archives/2010/files/colossi_triple_triangle.jpg

I don't think a triple triangle design qualifies it as a "copy"...

That's like saying Bianchi Pista Concepts are copies of Leader 725TR's, which are copies of older Fuji Track Pros, which are obviously just copies of Visps.

I recall you saying nice things about the Affinity Kissena, isn't that just a copy of other popular track frames? Just curious why you may see that differently.

I recall you saying nice things about the Affinity Kissena, isn't that just a copy of other popular track frames? Just curious why you may see that differently.


In terms of a track racing bike, it's a good bike. I don't like the fact that it's an unabashed copy of Mr. Tiemeyer's designs. I think that I've also mentioned that, too.

I guess this is a copy of the USA GT you posted as well?

http://www.pedalroom.com/p/geekhouse-rockcity-1830_4.jpg

And this Land Shark?

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lehc5b4YDY1qzqxkx.jpg

Or this Colossi?

http://www.pedalconsumption.com/archives/2010/files/colossi_triple_triangle.jpg

I don't think a triple triangle design qualifies it as a "copy"...

That's like saying Bianchi Pista Concepts are copies of Leader 725TR's, which are copies of older Fuji Track Pros, which are obviously just copies of Visps.


Which came first?

If they came after the GTB...then they are copies.

You guys can whine all you want. It won't change the fact that these fixie boutiques are making copies of bikes and taking your money for them.

Oh carleton... :rolleyes:

Oh carleton... :rolleyes:

:)

So I found this

Many alternatives to the traditional seat stay design have been introduced over the years. A style of seat stay that extends forward of the seat tube, below the rear end of the top tube and connects to the top tube in front of the seat tube, creating a small triangle, is called a Hellenic stay after the British frame builder Fred Hellens, who introduced them in 1923
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_frame
http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_ha-i.html#hellenic

I'll agree it's BS to make exact replicas of other people's bikes, but the triple triangle gets thrown around a lot. Sometimes it looks cool.

Here's a new use of triple triangle
http://volagi.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/main_bike_image/White%20side%20view%201A.jpg

So I found this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_frame
http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_ha-i.html#hellenic

I'll agree it's BS to make exact replicas of other people's bikes, but the triple triangle gets thrown around a lot. Sometimes it looks cool.

I didn't know about the Hellenic style of seat stay.

I hope people don't start claiming that's why they made that bike the way it is and not because the GTB was a popular frame.

This is what I mean when I wrote:


People want. People feel like they deserve to have, no matter what.

That combined with the fact this it is now easy to produce means that it happens.

And what's the effect?

The consumer gets something close to what he wants...but it's never what he really wants. And the value and prestige of the original rare bird are diminished.


Want. Want. Want.

What's wrong with that? If an overseas company figures out a cost-effective method of replication and production, this transfers to a quality product at a sub-standard price. I'm sure plenty of people are willing to pay extra to have original designs built here in good 'ol USA. I'm sure there are means for obtaining NOS, depending on how much money we're talking about. For the consumer looking for a good balance of performance/affordability, I say let the companies produce the fakes. Let the customers ultimately decide which product will succeed as they cast their vote with their purchase.

If this is infringing on the OG company's rights, they should've established patent ownership long before this issue ever arose.

And as far as fixie boutiques, if they sell the product I want, then I will buy from them. I just might skip the douchy t-shirt that they also try to push on me.

yeah well. my next frame is going to have like five triangles.

copy that *****es.

so close
http://www.gunnarbikes.com/newsletters/10-29-04_ming.jpg

I only see two triangles there

I see 3 and a pentagon

Lame.

I'm not sure what the point of copying an inferior design is. Sheldon summed it up nicely:

"Hellenic stays were introduced by (and named for) the British frame builder Fred Helens in 1923, and have been used off-and-on since by frame builders who wish to make their frames visually distinctive. They are of no practical value, and often cause un-necessary complication in brake-cable routing, luggage-rack attachment and installation of frame pumps. The are also slightly heavier than normal frame construction."

I see a parallelogram.

http://i881.photobucket.com/albums/ac16/Roz816/IMG_0796.jpg

FTW

http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m265wtVKNo1r3gh8ro1_500.gif

It is good i sold my GTB - it would look like so many bikes.

http://i881.photobucket.com/albums/ac16/Roz816/IMG_0796.jpg

FTW

They could easily add 2 more.

But what if I really want a high quality (GT) triple triangle, but want to buy new?
I would like a frame of comparable geometry but with high quality tubing.

I don't really care where the creative inspiration came from.

custom builders will make you one.

creative inspiration for the triple triangle frame came before GT.

I guess this is a copy of the USA GT you posted as well?

http://www.pedalroom.com/p/geekhouse-rockcity-1830_4.jpg

And this Land Shark?

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lehc5b4YDY1qzqxkx.jpg

Or this Colossi?

http://www.pedalconsumption.com/archives/2010/files/colossi_triple_triangle.jpg

I don't think a triple triangle design qualifies it as a "copy"...

That's like saying Bianchi Pista Concepts are copies of Leader 725TR's, which are copies of older Fuji Track Pros, which are obviously just copies of Visps.

QFT. There's a blurry line between what is and what isn't a copy but calling it a copy just because it has three triangles is a little overkill, just as yummy said about aluminum frames with big downtubes and cutaway seat tubes.

IMO, this = copy

http://superbbicycle.com/store/bikes/superbVivace/data/images1/deep_forest_green_vivace_superb.jpg
http://up.picr.de/1798767.jpg

http://prollyisnotprobably.com/old/assets_c/2011/09/1-drive-side-Superb-Sprint-thumb-500x350-22637.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4003/4222929114_4d29f677aa_o.jpg

But not
http://www.pedalconsumption.com/archives/2010/files/colossi_triple_triangle.jpg
http://www.iminusd.com/product_images/j/944/BB17_transfer__49768_zoom.png
http://prollyisnotprobably.com/old/assets_c/2011/01/ThomasGT-02-PINP-thumb-500x346-7993.jpg

thats a high horse you ride on carleton

thats a high horse you ride on carleton

at least it's original.

:rolleyes:

Ahhhh... more copies of stuff that used to be coveted years ago.

Why be original when you can just copy stuff that people STILL like?

fixed

at least it's original.

+1

fixed

Are you gonna buy one?

Serious question.

No I'm not going to buy one, but that doesn't mean that I don't appreciate the aesthetics of the frame. There's obviously a demand for bikes of that style and the chances of finding NOS or used frames like that are few and far between. I don't see how it's a ripoff of a GTB when its got typical (pursuit) track geometry, and is made of steel as opposed to aluminum. Is it a ripoff because of the triple triangle?

Does that mean that GT should have the monopoly of triple triangle frames?

high horse is high.

if a product isn't made anymore and prices for said product are high and another company bases a frame or product on said discontinued item at a lower price I don't see a problem. give the people what they want and they will buy it. is this not how consumerism works?

look at japanse sports cars and motorcycles

high horse is high.

if a product isn't made anymore and prices for said product are high and another company bases a frame or product on said discontinued item at a lower price I don't see a problem. give the people what they want and they will buy it. is this not how consumerism works?

look at japanse sports cars and motorcycles

How am I on a "high horse" for thinking that this product is an easy copy of a popular frame? Can't I have an opinion?

Yes, it happens in all industries. That doesn't mean it's right. It just means it's somewhat legal. Look at how many iPhone clones came out only 6 months after the iPhone was launched. It took 5+ years to develop the iPhone from scratch.

If high horse is high, then it's also true that

http://i.imgur.com/p6n13.gif

How am I on a "high horse" for thinking that this product is an easy copy of a popular frame? Can't I have an opinion?

Yes, it happens in all industries. That doesn't mean it's right. It just means it's somewhat legal. Look at how many iPhone clones came out only 6 months after the iPhone was launched. It took 5+ years to develop the iPhone from scratch.

If high horse is high, then it's also true that

http://i.imgur.com/p6n13.gif

If you want to make your iPhone analogy applicable to this situation, we would only be able to buy used or NOS iPhone 2G's and nobody else would be allowed to make an all touchscreen smart phone. There's a point when too many intellectual property rights hurts a market. All the iPhone spinoffs have pressured apple to keep innovating and keep their prices down (but only slightly because they're apple :P). That argument makes even less sense since the iPhone is still in production - GT isn't getting any more money out of triple tri track frames. The dilution of their market value doesn't matter much to GT now since they don't even offer them anymore.