Clydesdales/Athenas (200+ lb / 91+ kg) - maybe going vegan

15 years ago my doc told me to eat vegan to lower my cholesterol. that worked, but I didn't lose any weight...probably because I wasn't exercising at the time.

when I started bike-commuting to work a couple of years ago, for whatever reason i decided to go veggie and lost 40# over a 6-month period. eventually I missed meat and resumed flesh consumption and plateaued on weight loss. never connected the two, and maybe it's just a coincidence.

I'm plenty fast on the flats but still slow on the hills, so I recently tried dropping #s - first with a protein shake diet and then low-carb. I found that neither of these was sustainable when doing 2 hours of exercise per day (1 hour commuting each way). I got crazy hungry and ended up not being able to stick to the plan (esp. the low-carb one).

this weekend I read the "Engine 2 diet" which is basically a healthy-vegan (i.e., brown rice not white rice) approach and which has been adopted by LA and others. got me thinking that I should give it a try again.

curious to hear whether anyone on this board has had good experiences with veggie/vegan diets coupled with a lot of cycling (10+ hours per week). seems like a good way to get lots of (complex) carbs. btw I certainly understand that one needs to eat legumes for protein and also use supplements for iron, etc. more curious what your weight-loss experiences have been.

thanks all

I went Vegan about 15 years ago. Currently riding about 150 miles a week and running about 24 miles a week. Am 5'10", 180 lbs, 47 years old ( but constantly get amazed replies that I look ten years younger ).

Weight loss, in my opinion, is less about a particular diet and more about simply calories in vs out. With a Vegan diet you will stay about the same weight if the calories in vs out are roughly equal, you will gain if the "in" is higher and you will lose if the "out" is higher. What you will find with a healthy ( brown rice, grains, legumes, fresh fruit and vegetables ) Vegan diet is that you will feel better, recover better and look better while simultaneously causing no pain and suffering to other animals ( win/win ).

Pv,

I have to admit, what you are doing fascinates me. It's my goal to get to what you listed as your exercise regime. I have the running up to that point, I have no idea how I could maintain that amount of running and add 150 miles of biking.

All that and a vegan diet too? Wow.

There is no such thing as a meat free diet. I had a friend from India that always kidded his non animal eating friends by saying that they were eating microscopic animals with every bite of vegetables. He would even try to get them to look through a microscope at what they were eating.

Imagine eating all those animals alive. Embrace the fact that we are predators and have canine teeth.

My thinking is that a vegetarian diet is a good diet. But like others have mentioned you will need to make sure that you get the minerals and protein that you need. Also I don't think that you will lose weight by eating french fries and watching tv. Most people have to keep the calories down and exercise with some hunger involved.

Funny, i've lost 40 pounds by adding more chicken and dairy products and cutting crap food and beverages. Personally, I agree with the calories in/out theory. Eat whatever you want. If it's crappy high calorie food, you will have to work pretty hard to burn it off. Also, if your vegan intentions are due to not wanting to harm animals, more power to you. I can respect that. If it's because you think it's healthier? Well, my diet doesn't require taking supplements to compensate for the foods I can't eat.

To OP:

Check out the movie Forks Over Knives (you can stream it on Netflix). I have a friend that works for Engine 2. She reversed her diabetes, lost over 200 lbs and she is no longer on any medications and her cholesterol is under 150. I am working toward going Vegan....she was kind enough to send me two books with easy recipes from the Happy Herbivore.

FYI: A proper Vegan diet does not require the need for supplements. Plus you get plenty of protein and other nutrients but that is only if you are eating healthy vegan foods and eating a variety of foods. There are so many misconceptions related to eating a vegan diet. I suggest watching "Forks Over Knives", it is a real eye opener....

lol I think the main point of his training schedule was kind of overlooked...running 24 miles and riding 150, week in, and week out?

thats what I want to get up to.'

Honestly though I doubt I ever do, I just simply am not going to commit the time required to hit those numbers. But I can dream :)

I just want to mention to all the non flesh eaters that unfermented soy does a real screw job to your endocrine system. Try to get your protein and milk from other sources.

My Vegan diet has never had to be supplemented.Vegan's and Vegetarian's live on average 14 years longer than others with, most importantly, a higher quality of life.The meat, dairy, egg, nutritional supplement and dietary product industries have been massively misinforming their customer base, for obvious reasons, concerning the claimed positive attributes of their products.

Funny, i've lost 40 pounds by adding more chicken and dairy products and cutting crap food and beverages. Personally, I agree with the calories in/out theory. Eat whatever you want. If it's crappy high calorie food, you will have to work pretty hard to burn it off. Also, if your vegan intentions are due to not wanting to harm animals, more power to you. I can respect that. If it's because you think it's healthier? Well, my diet doesn't require taking supplements to compensate for the foods I can't eat.

+1. I went zero carb (all meat diet) and my cholesterol dropped from 210 to 169.

My Vegan diet has never had to be supplemented.Vegan's and Vegetarian's live on average 14 years longer than others with, most importantly, a higher quality of life.The meat, dairy, egg, nutritional supplement and dietary product industries have been massively misinforming their customer base, for obvious reasons, concerning the claimed positive attributes of their products.

Some studies report that 50% of all studies are inaccurate. Further studies are pending. :lol:

We could go back and forth and skew towards our own viewpoints and preferences all day on an issue like this. What constitutes a better quality of life? Steve Jobs had a great life and he died of cancer. Some people would argue that Ted Nugent has had a great life too and he appears healthy (well, physically at least!). I do agree that the U.S. food industry makes good business by lying to us, but I really doubt that excludes vegan food.

I'd highly recommend trying it. I went vegetarian a few years ago, and greatly enjoyed the benefits while carrying a training load similar to yours. I've since gotten more in tune with my body and it's needs and wants and will vary the amount of meat I eat. I tend to eat some in the winter, but go more vegetarian in the summer.

When traveling for work I tend to get pretty strict- eating vegetarian is usually eliminates a lot of unhealthy choices at restaurants.

One caveat though- vegetarians are right up there with lo-carbers and gluten-frees when it comes to weird processed crap that's designed to meat their dietary requirements. Avoid this crap. Just give up the cheeseburger, soy or otherwise.

I tried a vegan experiment a couple of years ago. My husband had just been diagnosed with diabetes at the time. I had planned to spend only one month eating strictly vegan-- just to see how it goes. We didn't ultimately stay totally vegan after that month but it permanently changed a lot about the way we eat. Much more fruits and vegetables, whole grains and legumes, much less meat. We learned to like tofu. All that aside... My husband lost a lot of weight, close to 80 pounds. His diabetes seems to be in remission and all the problems he had before with high cholesterol and triglycerides are gone. He has also stopped taking blood pressure meds. BUT, there was no such effect for me. I am still overweight and beginning to have problems with cholesterol and blood sugar. Perhaps I am not as strict.

Sorry.... but I'm with Denis Leary on the meat thing. Animals are nice and all, and I wouldn't want to cause them unnecessary pain, but until someone proves to me that they miss their friends, I'm eating them... They taste so good!

And just to qualify, as much as I wouldn't ever want these to happen... If I was caught in the jungle by a Lion, or was in a plane crash in the mountains... Have at it! I'll be good for a few days of eating!!!

Sorry.... but I'm with Denis Leary on the meat thing. Animals are nice and all, and I wouldn't want to cause them unnecessary pain, but until someone proves to me that they miss their friends, I'm eating them... They taste so good!

And just to qualify, as much as I wouldn't ever want these to happen... If I was caught in the jungle by a Lion, or was in a plane crash in the mountains... Have at it! I'll be good for a few days of eating!!!


Leary is an idiot. Find a better person to model yourself after. If I can provide the nourishment my body needs while at the same time causing no pain and suffering to another animal why would I not want to? Have your morals control your actions not your tastebuds.

Ah, and almost to illustrate the point perfectly- we just had two people on both extremes of the morality issue.

Which is rather unfortunate, because I think the vast majority of people would probably agree that it's possible to consume meat that has been raised and killed in a humane and compassionate manner without any serious moral implications.

But unfortunately, the discussion gets bogged down in the extremes- people who say that the killing of any animal for consumption is just not OK no matter what and those who say it has no relevance whatsoever and don't care how an animal arrives at their table.

As such, it's very difficult to make an informed choice about where to land in the middle and you get your arm twisted into just not eating meat because you have no idea what the bag of frozen chicken breasts really contains.

Which isn't too bad, because while the moral debate is difficult, the health aspect is not. There's a ton of really bad studies out there and best selling books masquerading as science, but I think you'd have a difficult time proving that eliminating meat is more unhealthy than even a little bit of meat or that eating more meat is healthier.

I'm neither vegetarian nor vegan but I almost never eat meat these days. Some fish, some dairy.

Why not meat? Not because I think it immoral to kill animals. Principally because the evidence seems to be stacking up that eating a lot of meat isn't much good for us, and partly because intensive livestock farming is both a massive polluter and an extremely inefficient way of producing the food we need. And I find that I feel better when the vast majority of my diet consists of fruit, legumes, grains, veggies.

From what I have read, I think the idea that we need animal proteins to be healthy is almost certainly a myth. In fact, most of us probably eat far more protein than we need, anyway. And vegetarians do seem to enjoy longer life expectancy, lower rates of heart disease, bowel cancer etc.

that worked, but I didn't lose any weight...probably because I wasn't exercising at the time.

Vegans tend to replace healthy animal fats and proteins with unnatural, refined fats (corn, rapeseed, etc) and sugars. The interesting thing about a vegan diet is that if you skip refined foods, getting 2000kcal into yourself is... difficult. Force yourself to eat locally and it because EXTREMELY difficult for anyone living north of southern California. Vegetables have an extremely low calorie density. To eat 2000kcal of broccoli you need to consume ~13 lbs of it.


evidence seems to be stacking up that eating a lot of meat isn't much good for us

Not really, most of the studies that say meat is bad for people are very poorly conducted.

Honestly, right now, it's pretty much impossible to do decent clinical studies about what people eat and how it affects them. People lie about what they eat, they can't keep to a strict clinical diet (which is what would be required). Medical thinking from the 90s has completely distorted population behavior to the point of making statistical analysis all but useless. Yes, people who eat lots of meat may be statistically less healthy... but is that because meat is unhealthy, or is it because people who are proactive (physically active, interested in the quality of their food, etc) have been told to not eat meat, while people who eat meat tend to disregard other aspects of their health?

(I've lost 130lb eating meat and cutting sugar from my diet)

Some studies report that 50% of all studies are inaccurate. Further studies are pending. :lol: ...

That is actually 53.7%. Get your statistics right. ;););)

Leary is an idiot. Find a better person to model yourself after. If I can provide the nourishment my body needs while at the same time causing no pain and suffering to another animal why would I not want to? Have your morals control your actions not your tastebuds.

I have no morals... I'm Irish!

Ah, and almost to illustrate the point perfectly- we just had two people on both extremes of the morality issue.


It's a sad day when eliminating pain and suffering to other animals is considered a moral extreme.


Which is rather unfortunate, because I think the vast majority of people would probably agree that it's possible to consume meat that has been raised and killed in a humane and compassionate manner without any serious moral implications.

The same vast majority of people couldn't explain the ridiculous sentence that contains both words "killed" and "humane" or "compassionate".


But unfortunately, the discussion gets bogged down in the extremes- people who say that the killing of any animal for consumption is just not OK no matter what and those who say it has no relevance whatsoever and don't care how an animal arrives at their table.

Once again, how can the killing of an animal be considered extreme?


Which isn't too bad, because while the moral debate is difficult, the health aspect is not.

Nothing difficult about the moral debate at all. It's compassion and empathy versus selfishness and tastebuds.

Apparently Peacevegan you've never heard an asparagus scream when it was pulled out of the ground. Why would you or anyone have any less or more of a moral objection to killing a tree or plant than a cow or chicken? The reality of it is that we all have to "kill" something to survive be it plant or animal. Because you draw your line in one place and someone else in another doesn't give you any higher moral ground.

At 170lbs why are you even in the clyde forum?

Apparently Peacevegan you've never heard an asparagus scream when it was pulled out of the ground. Why would you or anyone have any less or more of a moral objection to killing a tree or plant than a cow or chicken? The reality of it is that we all have to "kill" something to survive be it plant or animal. Because you draw your line in one place and someone else in another doesn't give you any higher moral ground.

Asparagus screaming is gonna need a little more research. However, we do know that animals feel pain. I think we may be able to agree that there currently is a world of difference between picking a fruit or vegetable and the horrific things we do to animals purely to satisfy our tastebuds.


At 170lbs why are you even in the clyde forum?

If I am not welcome I will go. The OP asked a question and I had some info and shared. If the inclusion of info and opinion by a non-clyde has caused you to to feel violated I apologize.

It's a sad day when eliminating pain and suffering to other animals is considered a moral extreme.



The same vast majority of people couldn't explain the ridiculous sentence that contains both words "killed" and "humane" or "compassionate".



Once again, how can the killing of an animal be considered extreme?



Nothing difficult about the moral debate at all. It's compassion and empathy versus selfishness and tastebuds.

Is it immoral for a lion to stalk, chase, and eat a zebra? For a cat to eat a mouse? A bird to eat a worm? You may find it immoral for me to eat a healthy diet based on meat, but I do not. I sleep just fine at night knowing that animals had to die so that I could live.

Peace, in your first post you really had me I interested in your diet and training. But then you get into condemning others for their choices, and you lost me.

And I can't get around the fact that nature has always managed itself by predators and prey, but now suddenly millions of years of natural harmony suddenly don't make sense anymore.

If you choose to be vegan and it's working for you, I applauded you, but telling the rest of us we have lost moral ground to satisfy our taste buds is extreme

Is it immoral for a lion to stalk, chase, and eat a zebra? For a cat to eat a mouse? A bird to eat a worm? You may find it immoral for me to eat a healthy diet based on meat, but I do not. I sleep just fine at night knowing that animals had to die so that I could live.

The difference between humans, at least some, and the lion, cat and bird you mention above is our ability to have very high levels of reasoning and logic coupled with feelings including compassion and empathy. The reasoning and logic allow us to determine the necessity of our actions both to other humans and to the world we interact with. The feelings of compassion and empathy allow us to interact with other humans and everything inhabiting the planet by considering others, human and other animals, feelings and situations.
The animals don't have to suffer and die for you to live. That is an unnecessary condition that you put on them. It is selfish and shallow.

Peace, in your first post you really had me I interested in your diet and training. But then you get into condemning others for their choices, and you lost me.

That is entirely your choice. I am only forcing you to confront something you would rather not. Understood.


And I can't get around the fact that nature has always managed itself by predators and prey, but now suddenly millions of years of natural harmony suddenly don't make sense anymore.

Natural harmony. What part of factory farming: containment, horrible living conditions, unnecessary killing, do you consider harmonious? Back before agriculture production eliminated the need for us to kill and eat other animals I could absolutely understand what you are saying. But now, with what we know nutritionally the continuation of factory farming is only for our taste buds. We used to live in caves but we moved forward. We used to believe that sickness was caused by evil spirits but we moved forward, etc. etc. etc.


If you choose to be vegan and it's working for you, I applauded you, but telling the rest of us we have lost moral ground to satisfy our taste buds is extreme

I don't want any applause. I want you to open your mind. You are in denial about the decisions you make and the horrible justification for them.



That is your choice.

This may be slightly off topic, although since this thread has been hijacked by a moral debate it probably doesn't matter, but I have a question for you PeaceVegan. What is your opinion on hunters controlling overpopulation of animals such as deer?

It's a sad day when eliminating pain and suffering to other animals is considered a moral extreme.



The same vast majority of people couldn't explain the ridiculous sentence that contains both words "killed" and "humane" or "compassionate".



Once again, how can the killing of an animal be considered extreme?



Nothing difficult about the moral debate at all. It's compassion and empathy versus selfishness and tastebuds.

Or in my case, due to enzyme deficiencies and genetic makeup, I'm an obligate carnivore, for all practical purposes. Cholesterol: 116 with an almost perfect 1:1 LDL/HDL balance and a HgA1C of 5.1. I can't digest veggies very well, but can thrive on a nearly pure meat/fat diet.

This may be slightly off topic, although since this thread has been hijacked by a moral debate it probably doesn't matter, but I have a question for you PeaceVegan. What is your opinion on hunters controlling overpopulation of animals such as deer?

Let's pull this thread back from that brink, so it doesn't get moved to P&R, thanks.

meat heads always throw in the "you need protein to survive" argument and I always respond with three words.
kale, spinach, almonds. all the protein in the world right there. not to mention USABLE calcium, iron, vitamin K, so much more.
comparing an animal killing another animal, to what we do on a commercial scale is ridiculous. even comparing a hunter to the chicken, beef, pork industry doesn't make sense. it's not morally wrong to sustain yourself on an animal. it's morally wrong to stuff chickens, beakless into a cage they can never stand in, a pig into pen it can not turn in, a cow into a yard miles long, filled with crap. all the water used to sustain them, all the water contaminated by their filth is water you and I will never see. it's morally wrong to inject all these animals with chemicals that yield bigger parts, faster growth. they use crop dusters to aerial spray feedlots to kill flies so the cows won't waste calories swatting at them (that's wrong). it's morally wrong to have an FDA that says it's okay eat an animal swimming in fecal soup because they added just enough ammonia to make it good. and when the Mississippi floods its banks the pig farmers rejoice, because that's what cleans out their pens.

eating green isn't just good for you, it's good for the planet.

meat heads always throw in the "you need protein to survive" argument and I always respond with three words.
kale, spinach, almonds. all the protein in the world right there. not to mention USABLE calcium, iron, vitamin K, so much more.
comparing an animal killing another animal, to what we do on a commercial scale is ridiculous. even comparing a hunter to the chicken, beef, pork industry doesn't make sense. it's not morally wrong to sustain yourself on an animal. it's morally wrong to stuff chickens, beakless into a cage they can never stand in, a pig into pen it can not turn in, a cow into a yard miles long, filled with crap. all the water used to sustain them, all the water contaminated by their filth is water you and I will never see. it's morally wrong to inject all these animals with chemicals that yield bigger parts, faster growth. they use crop dusters to aerial spray feedlots to kill flies so the cows won't waste calories swatting at them (that's wrong). it's morally wrong to have an FDA that says it's okay eat an animal swimming in fecal soup because they added just enough ammonia to make it good. and when the Mississippi floods its banks the pig farmers rejoice, because that's what cleans out their pens.

eating green isn't just good for you, it's good for the planet.

Factory farms are nasty business. No arguments there. But I live in a rural county where lots of people have their own pastures with their own grass fed, non chemical injected cows, pigs and chickens that they use not only for themselves, but they sell to the local community (at a cheaper price then you would find at your local grocery store). Are those guys immoral? Are they destroying the planet?

Again, lets not make this thread political. It will be moved if it gets too controversial and strays into morality. Thank you.....

Bigpete-
as I said sustaining yourself on animals isn't wrong, IMO. I read years ago something about a diet based on blood types. it seems (according to ??) some blood types need meat, others don't. I'll never fault a fellow that's says he can't do without meat, maybe he can't. I can't eat meat, all I taste is blood, except for deer and antelope. I had kin folk raise all those critters you mentioned as well, I wish we could go back to those days when small time farmers living a county or two away were the ones putting food on our plates. you're lucky.

Hmm, never thought about it being based on blood types. I have read that the human digestive system contains enzymes only found in carnivorous animals. I suppose that doesn't mean we have to eat meat, but it certainly seems like we are set up for it. I don't fault anyone for choosing not to eat meat, but I've been eating it for far too long and there is no way I could give it up now.

Or in my case, due to enzyme deficiencies and genetic makeup, I'm an obligate carnivore, for all practical purposes.

Can you elaborate on this? The reason I'm asking is that I've be battling GI issues for years, but I haven't heard of this and it's something I would like to look into as a possibility.

I can't remember the quote exactly about wrestling with a pig because he likes it...but I think it applies here.

At least I support one vegan ideal (I guess) , the wife and I both collect and drink a lot of wine...so I am guilty of causing the smashing and fermenting of many a grape.

In fact I am off to napa / Sonoma today to cause more havoc to the grape population.

Peace out!

This may be slightly off topic, although since this thread has been hijacked by a moral debate it probably doesn't matter, but I have a question for you PeaceVegan. What is your opinion on hunters controlling overpopulation of animals such as deer?

I do not have a problem with that scenario.

Can you elaborate on this? The reason I'm asking is that I've be battling GI issues for years, but I haven't heard of this and it's something I would like to look into as a possibility.

I'm missing certain enzymes that allow for breakdown of vegetable based foods. This is in part due to surgical alterations to my GI tract that had to be made to keep alive, and in part due to heredity. Wheat triggers problems for me, but I can eat rice, for example. If I eat bread, it's either a potato flour or garbanzo flour. Anything with wheat gluten will make me miserable. Incidentally, it will also make those around me miserable, as well......due to methane sulfate production in my GI tract. :eek: Rye can also trigger it, but not as often, if it's a nonblended, pure rye flour (as in no wheat whatsoever). Soy also triggers issues for me, either fermented or not.

Food allergies suck!

Oh, and since I'm on Coumadin, I have to limit my Vitamin K intake, so Kale, Spinach, and leafy greens are out or severely limited. Too much K and I start risking a stroke due to clotting and embolisms forming and the risk elevates very rapidly. I simply do best on a mostly meat/dairy diet. My cardiac issues are hereditary.....they are from an irregularity in my SA Node, which regulates heart beat....I have persistent Atrial Fibrillation annd this is not a dietary related heart issue.....as I said, my cholesterol is 116....it doesn't get better than that, with 56 LDL and 60 HDL

I'm missing certain enzymes that allow for breakdown of vegetable based foods.

Does that have a name?

Does that have a name?

It's a form of Celiac Disease related to Systemic Lupus.

About a year ago my doctor wanted me to start cholesterol lowering drugs.
After reading his book, I started experimenting with Dr. Esselstyn diet for 6 months now.

It is vegan but most important is it also avoids FATs of all sorts.
If the fat is in the natural food like soybeans etc its ok but no added fats including olive oil etc.

Here is the results from my blood work done about a week ago.

Total cholesterol 142
LDL 77
HDL 51

Blood Sugars 79

I have lost over 70 pounds and all of this without limiting the quantities I am eating.

I quit smoking and to avoid cravings took up cycling.

I still have a lot of weight to lose but I believe I am on the right track.

I strongly suggest you to read

1) China Study by Campbell
2) Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease by Esselstyn

then you can decide.

It seems it is working for me though

Matt

I do not have a problem with that scenario.

And if said hunters were to have a freezer full of meat from such hunts (meaning that is the only meat they eat, no supermarket meat) and they enjoy the taste of it, does that make them immoral and selfish for the sake of their taste buds?

Thanks Tom, for pulling this back.

My experience and opinion.

Giving up alcohol will show incredible results if you are a drinker.

Humans have canines, but so do horses and cows. An adult puma, which weighs about the same as an adult human, can kill a mule dear with it's canines. Can you?

Animal flesh has proteins that cannot be found in plants. By that reasoning, zoos should be feeding the Koalas steak.

The small intestine of an adult puma is about 1/3 the length of that of an adult human, which needs to be longer to more efficiently process plant nutrients.

I am not a strict vegetarian. I eat chicken and fish, but have given up dairy*, and have greatly reduced my egg consumption. I believe that the best diet is one that resembles the diet we evolved on.

*I became disillusioned with Weight Watchers over their insistence that we drink milk daily. Humans are the only mammal species that consumes milk past infancy.

To the OP, do what's right for you. We have had thousands of NorthAmericans fight and die to give us the right to choose and the right to voice opinion as shown by peacevegan. I myself rarely eat domesticated animals. I prefer to do it all myself from killing the animal to wiping my ass. My freezer has caught fish, along side venison in form of deer and moose, I do buy chicken. Just be careful I have friends who are or have been vegan, almost all of them are either sick all the time or complaining about lack of energy. Do your research and find what you need to eat to replace meat. Oh and just to get in a dig, shame on all those vegans for wanting to make domestic farm animals extinct. Lol

I have no time for this........I have to turn the steaks on the grill. I want the protien of my chioce, to help recover from todays ride!

This is a bicycle forum and peacevegan want to promote his/her own opinions on what is moral.:mad:

I have no time for this........I have to turn the steaks on the grill. I want the protien of my chioce, to help recover from todays ride!

LOL! There's a place for all of earths animals. Right next to the mashed potatoes!

My Vegan diet has never had to be supplemented.Vegan's and Vegetarian's live on average 14 years longer than others with, most importantly, a higher quality of life.The meat, dairy, egg, nutritional supplement and dietary product industries have been massively misinforming their customer base, for obvious reasons, concerning the claimed positive attributes of their products.

87 per cent of statistics quoted on the Internet are made up.

87 per cent of statistics quoted on the Internet are made up.

I don't have a witty retort, I just thought I should quote your statistic since it's on the internet and thus must be true! :roflmao2: