Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - Fixed for road training - what's holding me back?

I have a Specialized Tricross fixed gear that I use for commuting. However, I enjoy riding fixed so much, that I like taking my FG on my usual road rides. Only problem is that I am noticeably slower on the Tricross than I am on my road bike, and am not able to hang with my groups as easily. Is the Tricross frame capable enough for me to upgrade and add some speed, or should I go with something like a Wabi?

The Tricross is setup with fenders and 32c Vittoria Randonneur tires on Mavic Open Pros. Are the fenders and tires really holding me back that much? From searching the forums, it doesn't sound like switching from 32's to 25's will make a big difference in speed, contrary to what I thought. So then why am I so much slower? Is it frame design? Weight? Something else?

Wabis are fantastic bikes, and I hope to own one someday. But the Tricross seems to have some similar benefits: road/less aggressive geo, and a higher bottom bracket for cornering clearance. Is it that much heavier than a Wabi?

Obviously rider strength/ability is something I can work on, so I'm really just wondering if modifications to my Tricross would make i nearly as capable as a road training FG like the Wabi.

Gearing is important, your own level of fitness and said gearing are most likely what is holding you back the most. What are you using on the Tricross? There isn't anything special about riding fixed for road training. As you may know, in the past riders would often just swap out their rear wheel and ride the same bike fixed for the winter.

Fixed gear training is/was usually done with other fixed gear riders using similar gear ratios OR done solo. Trying to go on group rides with a bunch of geared riders probably won't work well if they're even a little bit competitive or doing any sort of structured training.

If you're riding in a group that is using a pace line, you're not going to be able to benefit from any shifting, which is where people are able to build up and surge in the pelethon.

tires/gearing make a big difference
gearing for obvious reasons, but recently i switced from a 28c to a 23c, and the resistance is so much less, try switching out the tires, it made a big difference for me personally, now im able to keep up better with my group, and i just switched the front too

Umm, just build a Powertap wheel.

lighter slick tires should help. Do you have it set up pretty upright compared to your road bike?

I thought the SS/FG would also help me train, all it did was condition me better at 76 GI. On occasion I'll find a group of roadies that are pacing themselves and I can push the SS to be competitive and stay with the group. But really being honest with myself, there are roadies of various levels of riding that anytime they want to pick their pace up, would make me a distant memory. By the same token the laggards in some of those groups might struggle to keep me close enough to make a run at an imaginary finish line.The road bike I have is an 86 Fuji Allegro, really a mid level touring bike for it's vintage, I can do better time with it vs the SS I have, but with today's road bikes, again there are cyclists that can make me know in short order that I'm not even competitive on the Fuji. The SS helped me ride all the bikes I have a little better and for that it served and continues to serve it's purpose. Having a selection and choice is just that for me. Depending how I feel about what style & time I'd like to ride that day. I've come to the conclusion that trying to make something keep up with faster riders & bikes won't happen. Whomever I ride with, I try to match the equipment, so we ride together without anyone being a liability for holding the rest back. Like working out at a gym, if your workout partner isn't close, you'll be swapping weights off the bar constantly.

Fixed for road training - what's holding me back?


-The wind.

Good points. In fact, while my dream may be to take a FG on group rides, I'm really just looking for a fast fixed bike to take on longer, mostly solo, rides. On flats, it definitely feels like it takes more effort to maintain a given speed on my fixed vs. road bike.

It sounds like tires may actually make a difference. And since I'm always on pavement, I might try some slicks. Do fenders also significantly slow you down due to weight and wind resistance? I've got a set of full Planet Bikes on there.

Fit wise, it has a top tube 8mm longer, but the saddle-bar drop is pretty similar.

What about the Tricross vs. Wabi frames? Do I get any significant advantages with the Wabi, other than the nice feeling ride of steel.

I am just flat out slower on my fixed, I almost never ride it anymore.

Do you hit elevation while you ride with your club buddies?

You are not going to be able to keep up with the paceline surges with one gear ratio. You're better off riding with other people who are fixed, or RIDIN SOLO.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyYWCUUnJU0

Damn it gigantor, I hate you. I just got this damn song out of my head.

As long as the course is flat, singlespeed or fixed will work in a pack.
Pacelining with a small group is no problem.
You just have to gear appropriate to the group, if you are doing pack rides.

Personally, I feel faster on fixed but maybe it's because I tend to want to stay in the 'sweet spot'.

Can anyone tell me more about the differences between the Tricross and Wabi frames? Do I get any advantages with one vs. the other?

I would be very surprised if there was any performance improvement to be had from switching from the Tricross to a Wabi frame. For most cycling situations gears provide a huge performance benefit. Is there a fixed version of the tricross or is this a conversion?

I've ridden on 28c randos (that is more like 26) for a year and changed to gator skins and I can say that it does make a difference. I'm not saying that this will be the thing that change your situation but it impacts on performance or at least perceived performance

1) Ride with the "B" group.

2) S3X hub:

http://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/viscount/s3x2.jpg

I would be very surprised if there was any performance improvement to be had from switching from the Tricross to a Wabi frame. For most cycling situations gears provide a huge performance benefit. Is there a fixed version of the tricross or is this a conversion?

SSCX version of the Tricross that they no longer make: http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bc/SBCBkModel.jsp?spid=32208

Wabi geometry: http://www.wabicycles.com/special_frame_detail.html

Aside from wanting to try a steel bike, maybe I should fiddle around with some of the parts on my Tricross first...

I am just flat out slower on my fixed, I almost never ride it anymore.I ride my SS more. just accept the fact I'll be on it 10 minutes more. It's pretty quick still and since the OP is going to ride his solo, he shouldn't really feel a difference too much for speed. That is I don't even though I'm slower & know it. The GI of the single speed still work my lungs and legs while still being fast enough. That leg & cardio work translate to riding every bike I have in better shape. ATB, SS & touring bike. The one bike that I see very little or feel no gain at all is the 20" bmx, probably because it's a neighborhood and trail bike that I'm standing up on regardless of where I ride it. My back usually fatigues before anything else and I wind up stopping and stretching. The bmx is slow, but I'm off road for the most part and that's going to be slow going anyway.

If you're running the stock 42/18, there's your problem right there. That looks to be around 63 gear inches, a good road ratio is 70+ gear inches.

You seem obsessed with frames. You need to get over that and understand the performance difference for road frames is not going to be that different especially if you're just comparing the Wabi and the Tricross.

Change your gearing to an appropriate road gearing, get some thinner/lighter tires and try that first. Frames aren't going to make a difference if your sitting there spinning your brains out with 63 g.i.

If you're running the stock 42/18, there's your problem right there. That looks to be around 63 gear inches, a good road ratio is 70+ gear inches.

You seem obsessed with frames. You need to get over that and understand the performance difference for road frames is not going to be that different especially if you're just comparing the Wabi and the Tricross.

Change your gearing to an appropriate road gearing, get some thinner/lighter tires and try that first. Frames aren't going to make a difference if your sitting there spinning your brains out with 63 g.i.

I hear ya. I run a 48x19 for commuting around town, but have a 17 on the other side for more up tempo rides. I don't expect to hang with a group once they start bumping up the pacelines, but do have a harder time maintaining a given speed on my FG.

I'll go ahead and try to make those changes to my FG first. Any good tire recommendations? This bike is also my rain bike, so I'd probably wanna stick to 25s or 28s. Flat proofness is highly valued. I like GP4000s on my road bike, but it would be nice to find something a bit cheaper.

1. You can ride a fixed-gear in fast, aggressive group rides successfully, even where everyone else is on a geared bike. Like most other things fixed-gear, the secret is your gearing. Little else matters. I regularly ride in groups with guys who are on the lightest CF road bikes outfitted with the best components money can buy. . . . And I'm on an IRO Jamie Roy. The bike doesn't matter.

2. The trick to figuring your gearing is you want what I call the "Goldilocks Gear": not too big; not too small. Something just right, most of the time. Too big, and you can't spin it up fast enough when an attack goes off and you get gapped. Too small, and you're spending too much time anaerobic when everyone else is just yanking around and you ought to be getting some recovery. (That, and even if you can work a very high cadence for a long while, you'll spin out and get gapped in sprints and if there's any kind of tailwind.) I've found 48 or 49x16 lets me hang with most groups. A 15T is workable if there are few attacks or other starts/stops to deal with. And a 14T works if it's just a steady, fast-paced ride.

3. Especially in rolling and hilly terrain, you've got to compensate for your gearing by riding very smart. You pretty much always need to be near the front, which lets you help control the ride and, in situations where you might get gapped, let's you have some real estate to work with before you get totally disconnected from the group. In rolling terrain, it's usually best to gap the group yourself and stay on top of that gear (most others will maintain an equal effort, not an equal pace, and therefore will slow down on the incline). It's efficient for you to stay on top of your gear as long as you can, and this is especially necessary if you're concerned you might spin out or get dropped on the descent. When you've topped out, relax, recover, and drift back to the group.

4. Ego checking is necessary. You're going to work your ass off to stay in a group of riders who are not in as good a shape as you are. And the slightest mistake on your part -- being on the wrong wheel, usually, or otherwise poorly positioned within the group -- is going to result in your getting droped and reattaching is going to be mighty tough to do. So what, though? Think about how much of a better workout you're getting. Training rides are about training, not competition, despite what all your roadie buddies will talk about in the coffee shop and in their little Facebook worlds. Who cares if you get dropped. You're getting stronger, and you're getting a much better workout than those around you. In time, your body's ability to do work efficiently in a very wide range of cadences will increase dramatically. You'll be a beast. And when you get back on your geared bike, you're going to kick everyone's ass.

1. You can ride a fixed-gear in fast, aggressive group rides successfully, even where everyone else is on a geared bike. Like most other things fixed-gear, the secret is your gearing. Little else matters. I regularly ride in groups with guys who are on the lightest CF road bikes outfitted with the best components money can buy. . . . And I'm on an IRO Jamie Roy. The bike doesn't matter.

2. The trick to figuring your gearing is you want what I call the "Goldilocks Gear": not too big; not too small. Something just right, most of the time. Too big, and you can't spin it up fast enough when an attack goes off and you get gapped. Too small, and you're spending too much time anaerobic when everyone else is just yanking around and you ought to be getting some recovery. (That, and even if you can work a very high cadence for a long while, you'll spin out and get gapped in sprints and if there's any kind of tailwind.) I've found 48 or 49x16 lets me hang with most groups. A 15T is workable if there are few attacks or other starts/stops to deal with. And a 14T works if it's just a steady, fast-paced ride.

3. Especially in rolling and hilly terrain, you've got to compensate for your gearing by riding very smart. You pretty much always need to be near the front, which lets you help control the ride and, in situations where you might get gapped, let's you have some real estate to work with before you get totally disconnected from the group. In rolling terrain, it's usually best to gap the group yourself and stay on top of that gear (most others will maintain an equal effort, not an equal pace, and therefore will slow down on the incline). It's efficient for you to stay on top of your gear as long as you can, and this is especially necessary if you're concerned you might spin out or get dropped on the descent. When you've topped out, relax, recover, and drift back to the group.

4. Ego checking is necessary. You're going to work your ass off to stay in a group of riders who are not in as good a shape as you are. And the slightest mistake on your part -- being on the wrong wheel, usually, or otherwise poorly positioned within the group -- is going to result in your getting droped and reattaching is going to be mighty tough to do. So what, though? Think about how much of a better workout you're getting. Training rides are about training, not competition, despite what all your roadie buddies will talk about in the coffee shop and in their little Facebook worlds. Who cares if you get dropped. You're getting stronger, and you're getting a much better workout than those around you. In time, your body's ability to do work efficiently in a very wide range of cadences will increase dramatically. You'll be a beast. And when you get back on your geared bike, you're going to kick everyone's ass.

Clear and inspiring. ^ This is why I ride FG; in limits, freedom.

I've been using my FG on group rides this year, and often hang out in the front. Of course, that may say more about the group than my abilities. ;)

Stick some 25s on your tricross, slam that stem, and pwn some roadies...

For tires, go for Gator Hardshells and Randos. I love both tires in 25c.

Even though I seem to be in the minority with my feelings towards gearing, I really do feel like pushing gears that are ill suited for the situation will make you stronger/faster. Run a small gear on a massive downhill, and your leg speed will increase. Run a monster gear on a giant climb, and you'll get stronger, able to mash and keep cadence even with elevation.

With the lack of options in gearing when you're riding, you just learn to deal and keep pushing. It simplifies things too, since you're not thinking about what the best suited gear for the situation would be. Like mentioned above, when you get back on your road bike, you'll notice the benefits of purposely not making training as efficient or easy as possible.

Instead of focusing on getting a better frame, just ride the bike more. The weight, if anything, will work to your advantage in making training more strenuous, as long as you can keep the duration of your session up. Get two rear cogs, one small and one larger, and swap them out for whatever desired workout you're looking for.

You will occasionally see some FGs on the local hammerfests. As others have said, gearing is key. It looks like they tend to run something like 50-15. You don't have to be an animal, but you do have to be smart. Get out in the wind at the wrong time, and you'll be riding home solo. (Of course that applies to most of us on geared bikes too. :))

I didn't read any posts on this thread..................unless T-Monk has any advice (listen to him)

You want a gear that optimizes leg speed when you train SS for road racing. I am talking 90-100.
In my area (Santa Barbara, California) a good gear is 48-17, this makes you run 90+ on the flats and lets you hammer 75+ or so on the hills.
You train with SS to get fluid leg speed, strength training comes from powerhouse intervals etc. The SS/FG trains for speed, not power. Even the Velodrome with all it's power, still remains about speed.
The tortoise and the hare............"Slow and steady wins the race". Bullsh*t, "Fast and steady wins the race"



Sorry if I went over you kid's heads there, but there are things called "books" (paper sheets covered with weird symbols) That have stories and tales, and the above reference is from a classic fable.

For tires, go for Gator Hardshells and Randos. I love both tires in 25c.

Even though I seem to be in the minority with my feelings towards gearing, I really do feel like pushing gears that are ill suited for the situation will make you stronger/faster. Run a small gear on a massive downhill, and your leg speed will increase. Run a monster gear on a giant climb, and you'll get stronger, able to mash and keep cadence even with elevation.

With the lack of options in gearing when you're riding, you just learn to deal and keep pushing. It simplifies things too, since you're not thinking about what the best suited gear for the situation would be. Like mentioned above, when you get back on your road bike, you'll notice the benefits of purposely not making training as efficient or easy as possible.

Instead of focusing on getting a better frame, just ride the bike more. The weight, if anything, will work to your advantage in making training more strenuous, as long as you can keep the duration of your session up. Get two rear cogs, one small and one larger, and swap them out for whatever desired workout you're looking for.Agree, I like the gear I have 46/16 for flat land, in a good stiff head wind it can be a little too much over a longer ride. But the taller gear, that way when I encounter a grade, I attack it before I actually get there and try to maintain a seated ride throughout an ascent. The slightly heavier SS/FG I have 23.5/24 lbs works my legs & lungs a little more than the 20-22 lb bikes everybody else wanted their SS/FG's to be. I found that hitting the SS/FG also had a healthy benefit in that my bp dropped well into the normal range because of the forced workload, where with a geared bike, I know I would have been lazier and used the gears to make the ride more pleasant and less challenging. With cycling, there obviously are gains that are made in speed and time that most try to focus on. But at my skill level, it's the less obvious benefits that are gained that are measured in terms of heart rate & blood pressure, the weight loss and improved fitness that are really more important than shaving off seconds/minutes on a ride.

I didn't read any posts on this thread..................unless T-Monk has any advice (listen to him)

You want a gear that optimizes leg speed when you train SS for road racing. I am talking 90-100.
In my area (Santa Barbara, California) a good gear is 48-17, this makes you run 90+ on the flats and lets you hammer 75+ or so on the hills.
You train with SS to get fluid leg speed, strength training comes from powerhouse intervals etc. The SS/FG trains for speed, not power. Even the Velodrome with all it's power, still remains about speed.
The tortoise and the hare............"Slow and steady wins the race". Bullsh*t, "Fast and steady wins the race"



Sorry if I went over you kid's heads there, but there are things called "books" (paper sheets covered with weird symbols) That have stories and tales, and the above reference is from a classic fable.
Condescend much?

Show up down here with 48x17 and old ladies will drop you, I don't care who you are. That's a very small gear. You'll need 160rpm to deliver 35mph; not a lot of folks can hold that cadence for very long and even in flat Florida, we have a few hills and some bridges that will produce 45mph without much effort.

If you're "hammer[ing] 75+ or so on the hills," then they're not hills. That's 16.5mph in your gear. Couple-a-percent grade there, at best.

Ride whatever gear you want; it's a free country. But if you want to ride with roadies on geared bikes who are riding hard, you're going to need a lot more gear. And in my experience, riding fixed gear bicycles, especially when you're severely over-geared (which you will be, when that fast group you're in hits an incline or turns into a nasty headwind and you rotate to the front) is a great way to build leg strength and power.

As for whether you should pay attention to my advice, I don't care if you do or not. Still a free country. But I'll take my fixed-gear palmarès (http://www.bicycletimesmag.com/content/climbing-mont-ventoux-fixed-gear-four-times) against pretty much anyone else on Planet Earth. :)

But I'll take my fixed-gear palmarès (http://www.bicycletimesmag.com/content/climbing-mont-ventoux-fixed-gear-four-times) against pretty much anyone else on Planet Earth. :)

Wow! Impressive. Hats off to you :)

I didn't read any posts on this thread..................unless T-Monk has any advice (listen to him)

You want a gear that optimizes leg speed when you train SS for road racing. I am talking 90-100.
In my area (Santa Barbara, California) a good gear is 48-17, this makes you run 90+ on the flats and lets you hammer 75+ or so on the hills.
You train with SS to get fluid leg speed, strength training comes from powerhouse intervals etc. The SS/FG trains for speed, not power. Even the Velodrome with all it's power, still remains about speed.
The tortoise and the hare............"Slow and steady wins the race". Bullsh*t, "Fast and steady wins the race"



Sorry if I went over you kid's heads there, but there are things called "books" (paper sheets covered with weird symbols) That have stories and tales, and the above reference is from a classic fable.

This guy sucks.

Octopus, props!
But leave the asshats alone. When someone is so certain that 48-17 is a road racing gear, you just have to laugh and wish the guy good luck.

pretty sure 70 gi is good for training hills especially if that is your only option. 80 is fun too i hear.

Condescend much?

Show up down here with 48x17 and old ladies will drop you, I don't care who you are. That's a very small gear. You'll need 160rpm to deliver 35mph; not a lot of folks can hold that cadence for very long and even in flat Florida, we have a few hills and some bridges that will produce 45mph without much effort.

If you're "hammer[ing] 75+ or so on the hills," then they're not hills. That's 16.5mph in your gear. Couple-a-percent grade there, at best.

Ride whatever gear you want; it's a free country. But if you want to ride with roadies on geared bikes who are riding hard, you're going to need a lot more gear. And in my experience, riding fixed gear bicycles, especially when you're severely over-geared (which you will be, when that fast group you're in hits an incline or turns into a nasty headwind and you rotate to the front) is a great way to build leg strength and power.

As for whether you should pay attention to my advice, I don't care if you do or not. Still a free country. But I'll take my fixed-gear palmarès (http://www.bicycletimesmag.com/content/climbing-mont-ventoux-fixed-gear-four-times) against pretty much anyone else on Planet Earth. :)

Excellent read, epic ride and a great write up to go with it. Makes me want to go back to France again but with my bike.
I think I'm going to just go read every post you've made and maybe learn something. ;)

Condescend much?

Show up down here with 48x17 and old ladies will drop you, I don't care who you are. That's a very small gear. You'll need 160rpm to deliver 35mph; not a lot of folks can hold that cadence for very long and even in flat Florida, we have a few hills and some bridges that will produce 45mph without much effort.

If you're "hammer[ing] 75+ or so on the hills," then they're not hills. That's 16.5mph in your gear. Couple-a-percent grade there, at best.

Ride whatever gear you want; it's a free country. But if you want to ride with roadies on geared bikes who are riding hard, you're going to need a lot more gear. And in my experience, riding fixed gear bicycles, especially when you're severely over-geared (which you will be, when that fast group you're in hits an incline or turns into a nasty headwind and you rotate to the front) is a great way to build leg strength and power.

As for whether you should pay attention to my advice, I don't care if you do or not. Still a free country. But I'll take my fixed-gear palmarès (http://www.bicycletimesmag.com/content/climbing-mont-ventoux-fixed-gear-four-times) against pretty much anyone else on Planet Earth. :)

You're a pretty spectacular human being.

Here (http://connect.garmin.com/activity/173867038) is what a typical, spirited road ride looks like. There was one ex-pro in this group and a few other studs. I was on a Dolan Forza running 49x15, fixed. Winds were sustained 18-20 with gusts to 25mph. We had a purely crossing wind when the ride was at it's fastest and we hit 35mph twice.

Cat 6 tip of the day: Forget average speed. It's a worthless metric. What matters for a flat ride like this is (1) how fast does the ride get at it's peak; (2) how long to you have to stay at that effort; (3) how many accelerations are there; and (4) what's the effort you've got to make in those accelerations (i.e., going from 25 to 30 isn't that big a deal; going from 18 to 30 is a very big deal). "Average speed" doesn't tell you any of this. For the Garmin track above, it also doesn't tell you that we had to wait for a few lights, one drawbridge was up, and that I left the thing running where I met the group. Forget average speed. It does not make you kick more ass.

Here (http://connect.garmin.com/activity/173867038) is what a typical, spirited road ride looks like. There was one ex-pro in this group and a few other studs. I was on a Dolan Forza running 49x15, fixed. Winds were sustained 18-20 with gusts to 25mph. We had a purely crossing wind when the ride was at it's fastest and we hit 35mph twice.

Cat 6 tip of the day: Forget average speed. It's a worthless metric. What matters for a flat ride like this is (1) how fast does the ride get at it's peak; (2) how long to you have to stay at that effort; (3) how many accelerations are there; and (4) what's the effort you've got to make in those accelerations (i.e., going from 25 to 30 isn't that big a deal; going from 18 to 30 is a very big deal). "Average speed" doesn't tell you any of this. For the Garmin track above, it also doesn't tell you that we had to wait for a few lights, one drawbridge was up, and that I left the thing running where I met the group. Forget average speed. It does not make you kick more ass.

What? Going from 18 to 25 is not a big deal. Going from 25 to 30 is a big deal, and hitting 35 is an even bigger deal. I accelerate from 18 to 25 all the time on my rides with little effort.

One thing to mention is I'm running 70 gear inches on my fixed. On a road bike, going from 25 to 30 and sustaining 30+ mph is still a big deal.

What? Going from 18 to 25 is not a big deal. Going from 25 to 30 is a big deal, and hitting 35 is an even bigger deal. I accelerate from 18 to 25 all the time on my rides with little effort.

read.

read.

I did. You first.

"(i.e., going from 25 to 30 isn't that big a deal; going from 18 to 30 is a very big deal)"

Going from 25 to 30 is always a big deal. I explain that going from 18 to 25 is not a big deal, and thus, going from 18 to 30, to me, is going from 25 to 30, since the acceleration to 25 is trivial.

I did. You first.

"(i.e., going from 25 to 30 isn't that big a deal; going from 18 to 30 is a very big deal)"

Going from 25 to 30 is always a big deal. I explain that going from 18 to 25 is not a big deal, and thus, going from 18 to 30, to me, is going from 25 to 30, since the acceleration to 25 is trivial.

Guess we're going to argue about physics again...

He's not just making one statement, he's making several that build on each other.

ETA: The acceleration from 18 to 30 is a pretty big deal when running 49/15. Especially if the effort to do so is very high and as such it's accomplished in a shorter period of time.

Guess we're going to argue about physics again...

Let's race Nagrom. I think they have SPD inserts for casts, or something. kekekekeke.

Let's race Nagrom. I think they have SPD inserts for casts, or something. kekekekeke.

Cute.

Oh, my. Let me try to explain:

Play with a wattage meter sometime. You're not doing much work at 18mph. Even in a draft, you're doing some good effort once you get into the 30s. In spirited rides, it's the accelerations that crush you like a little bug. And the more you've got to accelerate, the more it hurts. The tougher it is. Going from 25mph to 30mph, especially if you've got wheels to work with, isn't much of an effort. When your group is toodling along at 18mph, though, and then someone drills it, you've got to put in a huge effort. And you've got to sustain it for a long time. That guy got pretty far up the road when he attacked. Lot of wind to fight.

Come on down here and I'll demonstrate for ya sometime. ;)

He's not just making one statement, he's making several that build on each other.

ETA: The acceleration from 18 to 30 is a pretty big deal when running 49/15. Especially if the effort to do so is very high and as such it's accomplished in a shorter period of time.

Hmmm... I see your point. I guess slowing to 18 for the sole reason of getting to 30 in surging efforts would tire someone out fast.

I guess I should have stated differently, that rolling averages do matter, when you can hold 22-25 and take on a few K in elevation as well.

Oh, my. Let me try to explain:

Play with a wattage meter sometime. You're not doing much work at 18mph. Even in a draft, you're doing some good effort once you get into the 30s. In spirited rides, it's the accelerations that crush you like a little bug. And the more you've got to accelerate, the more it hurts. The tougher it is. Going from 25mph to 30mph, especially if you've got wheels to work with, isn't much of an effort. When your group is toodling along at 18mph, though, and then someone drills it, you've got to put in a huge effort. And you've got to sustain it for a long time. That guy got pretty far up the road when he attacked. Lot of wind to fight.

Come on down here and I'll demonstrate for ya sometime. ;)

It depends how long you've been holding 25mph.

I guess I should have stated differently, that rolling averages do matter, when you can hold 22-25 and take on a few K in elevation as well.

You're nit-picking and you just shot down your own argument with the last part of that sentence. Since average speed would not factor or express elevation gain, it means nothing in your scenario. Which is one of the points in the earlier post. Average speed doesn't matter when there are several other factors that are more important.

Oh, my. Let me try to explain:

Play with a wattage meter sometime. You're not doing much work at 18mph. Even in a draft, you're doing some good effort once you get into the 30s. In spirited rides, it's the accelerations that crush you like a little bug. And the more you've got to accelerate, the more it hurts. The tougher it is. Going from 25mph to 30mph, especially if you've got wheels to work with, isn't much of an effort. When your group is toodling along at 18mph, though, and then someone drills it, you've got to put in a huge effort. And you've got to sustain it for a long time. That guy got pretty far up the road when he attacked. Lot of wind to fight.

Come on down here and I'll demonstrate for ya sometime. ;)

I just looked at your data, and you have one surge into the 30+ zone.


You're nit-picking and you just shot down your own argument with the last part of that sentence. Since average speed would not factor or express elevation gain, it means nothing in your scenario. Which is one of the points in the earlier post.

Average speed certainly factors in elevation gain. Your average speed will be lower if you take on some elevation. It is a simple concept to grasp.

I'm no longer disagreeing with "The Octopus'" post, if you haven't noticed yet.

It depends how long you've been holding 25mph.
I can hold it for almost 100 miles (time trialing), and there are plenty of people on BF much faster than I am. ;)

I know we're heading into a physics and math abyss here... but I'll lead the way. Accelerations are the only thing that matter. Once you have a bike rolling at 25mph (or any velocity, for that matter), it doesn't take much work to keep it there. You're just overcoming friction (mostly wind). That's it. In a frictionless world, your wattage meter wpuld read zero if your velocity was constant.

Accelerations are what matters (once you've done what you can to reduce friction -- aero gear FTMFW). How much have you got to increase your velocity, and how quickly do you have to do it? That's the whole game right there. The number of times you can do that -- deal with an attack, recover, rinse, repeat -- pretty much separates the men from the boys in bicycle racing. I can time trial for hours at 23-24mph, but take me from 18 to 23 a few times and I'll blow up eventually... and long before a couple of hours are up.

The problem is, when someone lunches one at 18mph, they're not fighting that much wind. They get way the hell up the road quickly. Now go get 'em! What about someone going off at 25mph? They go off more slowly. They're battling a ****-ton of wind. Drag increases as a square of the velocity. The acceleration isn't as sharp, doesn't have as much snap!, it isn't as quick. If you're paying attention, you see it coming. If closing it down is smooth and gradual, then it's not that painful. If others jump and jack it up to reattach, then it's over mercifully quickly.

Riding these speeds if you're not in shape, or doing it on 70" even if you are in shape (try it sometime -- it's a great freakin' workout!), is a whole 'nother ballgame. But neither your gear selection nor fitness changes the physics.