Classic and Vintage Bicycles: What's it Worth? Appraisals and Inquiries - HELP ID'ing what I thought was a Colnago.

Hey all! I'm new to the forum and fairly new to cycling in general!

I'm into my second season and I decided to go vintage and buy a vintage bike at a local bike shop that sells used bikes. I looked around and didn't know much about what I was looking at especially the in the mold markings for certain companies and all that but I found what I thought was a beautiful Colnago... I knew what certain names meant and when I saw a Colnago I freaked.

After countless hours of research I came to the realization that this is most likely NOT a Colnago and wanted to not only confirm that but also get an ID on this frame and the campi parts on it. Unfortunately this is a few months AFTER I purchased this bike so I'm a little late.

It's a great lightweight bike and the friction shifting has been taking me awhile to get used to but I love it and has given me another look into the sport. I was thinking about repainting this bike and putting original decals on it but since this is most likely not a real Colnago I think I will repaint it and either use it's original name (if someone is knowledgable enough to ID it) or come up with a new name and have some fun.

So far this is what I can gather:

FRAME: Unidentified
FORKS: Unidentified
SET: Campagnolo
- Front and back derailleur
- Seat post
- Crank
- Breaks
- Wheel lock
HANDLEBARS: Guerciotti 3TTT

Thats about it on my end folks other then a serial number that is in one of the attachments. It reads "56 652".
I really hope someone can help me out!

Thanks much.
Cheers
Jon

Very nice bike really like the stem and compnents. Why do you think it is not Colnago I see little on this bike to indicate it is not high 70's which matchs with Colnago? Looking at it the only othe bikes that come to mind are top end Italian, Windsor or Zeus all of which would be on par with a Conago so I just could not se someone faking or selling a bike of this quality as different brand.

Really?? I honestly thought they were all branded with the CLUB logo where the triangles are currently and along the frame I normally saw the name Colnago stamped in various places depending on the model/year. Plus the paint job and decals don't look like any of the other Colnagos I've seen online. It made me start to wonder. Would love to hear more feedback!

Thanks zukahn1!

Firstly, welcome to the Bike Forums.

Let's see some better pictures. Based on what I see and it is difficult to see in your pictures, I would think the bike to be as described. Again, better pictures will help you get more accurate answers.

Show pictures of the head tube from the side. Show the rear drops. Show the seat tube lug clearly. Measure the size of the seat post and measure also the width of the bottom bracket housing. All of this will help with identifying the bicycle.

Firstly, welcome to the Bike Forums.

Let's see some better pictures. Based on what I see and it is difficult to see in your pictures, I would think the bike to be as described. Again, better pictures will help you get more accurate answers.

Show pictures of the head tube from the side. Show the rear drops. Show the seat tube lug clearly. Measure the size of the seat post and measure also the width of the bottom bracket housing. All of this will help with identifying the bicycle.

+1 Also really nice Glory shot of the enter bike drive side best possible helps a lot. Preferably outdoor lighting with nice background.

Hey guys,

Here are some new pictures. After further reviewing the bike it looks like the rear drops have GIPIEMME engraved on them. The "IE" is worn off but I'm pretty positive that's what it said. The bottom bracket housing measures just under 3 inches.

Hopefully this helped a bit more!
Cheers

Jon

It doesn't have many Colnago hallmarks and the top tube cable routing is a fairly old style that I have never seen on a Colnago. As you mentioned no signature Colnago cutouts in the lugs, head tube lugs are not the usual Colnago style, seat stay caps are not common Colnago style, Gipiemme branded dropouts were rarely seen on Colnagos (usually Campy or Colnago branded), etc. It could still be a Colnago but it doesn't show the obvious signs. Decals look correct but anyone can get Colnago decals.

It might be a Colnago Sport. You don't see them very often but they were built by smaller companies for Colnago and sold in parts of Europe and Canada. I had one, I think the drops were also Gipiemme and it definitely had a very similar cut out on the BB.

info@colnago.com might be a good place to start since you have a serial number and pictures.

Thanks jet sanchEz!
I will email them right away and see if they can help me out!

It might be a Colnago Sport. You don't see them very often but they were built by smaller companies for Colnago and sold in parts of Europe and Canada. I had one, I think the drops were also Gipiemme and it definitely had a very similar cut out on the BB.

info@colnago.com might be a good place to start since you have a serial number and pictures.

Yeah, if it's a Colnago, its something along the lines of one of those deals. I'm skeptical.

I just emailed Colnago-America (as the info@colnago.com did not work for some reason) so I'll let you guys know what they say if they can help me out.

If it is a Colnago Sport what year would it be? I would love to try and find some pictures on the net to try and find some similarities. And it would kind of make sense if it is a Sport since I live in Canada If what you are telling me is true about these frame types being used in the North-American and European markets we might be closer to ID'ing this bike.

Thanks!

ps
Just found this site ( http://www.foxgalleria.com/bici/sport/index.html ) which has similar markings like mine. Possible match? This one is an early 80s sport however on mine notice the fact that it has two waterbottle carrying bolt sets which leads me to believe it is late 80s... Thoughts?

My thought is that your thinking makes sense.

A little update.

I am in contact with someone at Colnago America and they now have everything I have on the bike. They will verify everything once Colnago HQ in Italy return from vacation starting May 1.

I shall keep you all posted!
Thanks so much for all your feedback!

Cheers

I am very interested in odd Colnagos. There are a bunch of photos on my Flickr account 9EhGiOeS'. Ed

And they're not all of delta brakes?

Some really cool bikes Ed!
I actually came across your album when I was trying to find more photos on a Colnago Sport. I noticed right away the Arrow shapes in the mold on the Ukraine Sport you have! That gave me some hope. Well that photo and a few others.

Hopefully I'll get some good news next week!

Have you noticed anything similar from my model to some of yours?
Let me know! I would still love to get some feedback from more Colnago fans out there.

Cheers

A little update.

I am in contact with someone at Colnago America and they now have everything I have on the bike. They will verify everything once Colnago HQ in Italy return from vacation starting May 1.

I shall keep you all posted!
Thanks so much for all your feedback!

Cheers
Glad to hear they were so good about getting back to you. Hope you get a final answer.

Hey gang... bad news... Colnago got back to me and turns out it isn't a real Colnago. I feel like a complete dunce for paying what I did for this bike. Its got a nice group set and handlebars but the frame is not Colnago.

So moving forward I would like to figure out this mystery frame!... if it even has a name. Right now I have a serial number "56 652" and GIPIEMME written on the inserts for the back wheel AND written on the drop downs (on that bar that connects between the two drop downs near the rear break. Would this lead me to believe that it is a GIPIEMME frame? or did they just make the rear drop downs.

Any information to help me identify this frame would be really great! Thanks much
Jon

As posted on your other thread, they didn't make bikes as far as I have ever seen. They, like Campagnolo and other companies, made dropouts to be brazed into frames. It's not a Gipiemme bike, but the drops indicate that it is probably a better quality frame.

That's good to know! At least it isn't some nonsense frame! Now the only question is which companies used Gipiemme dropouts... Also I noticed this for the first time today. This is found where the rear break is. Now I'm a newbie when it comes to vintage bikes and cycling in general but frames were normally not made in 2 pieces correct? Would someone care to explain why there would be Gipiemme markings on the frame where the rear break is? (see attachment).

Thanks much!
Jon

That brake bridge is also a part that would be brazed in by the frame builder. These parts were made by many companies including Gipiemme.

For instance: http://www.framebuilding.com/brake.htm

and here are some dropouts, etc: http://www.framebuilding.com/NEWPARTSPAGES/Forged%20Dropouts.htm

Ah... I see. Thanks lostarchitect! Now the question still remains what kind of bike is this really... Other then the BB are there any other areas on the bike that would determine it's make? I have a serial number (listed above) and that is it. If anyone has any idea of a company I should look into further based on the look of this bike let me know! I could really use all of your experience and knowledge!

Thanks in advance!

Also, is the bike a 56 cm size? If so the first 2 numbers in the serial probably refer to the size.

Other than that, and what I wrote above, I don't have much more info that could help you, sorry. It's often very difficult to determine what something was after it's been repainted, etc.

No I only have 8 pair of Deltas. Ed

I think there were 8 generations of Sports from 1970 to about mid "90's". Most of those bikes on my Flickr page are from EBay. I only have 6 Colnagos. Ed

Thanks lostarchitect, That makes sense that the 56 refers to the frame. And Ed according to Colnago-America the bike I have is not a Colnago at all. The markings and serial number do not add up. As of right now it is a mystery frame and I am dying to find out what it is because according to many so far it's a higher end Italian make. I know group sets can be changed out but this bike came with the Campi set and the Guerciotti handlebar... whether that was added on later I don't know but I bought it as is a few months ago.

Is there anywhere else on the frame where a manufacturer would leave their mark?

I don't know if I would say "higher end" for sure. As Chombi said, Gipiemme drops were often used on bikes that were good bikes, but maybe a step or 2 down from bikes with Campagnolo drops, etc. So mid range or high mid range is a better guess. But a decent bike almost for sure.

Just a thought here.... the person you talked to at Colnago USA does not have to be the end all expert does he? Did you mention that you were in Canada and bought the bike used in Canada? If he was only looking at a US data base he would not have information on Europe, Canada and other countries models of bikes. I would keep doing some research and see if anyone knows who imported Colnagos to Canada in the '80s

I see lots of Bianchis on here and ebay that were made to sell in other countries. some look like the US model bikes some are completely different models.

If it helps Bianchi used GipMe dropouts on lots of their Italian built frames in the '80 and '90s starting at about $550 level bike up to their top of the line machines.

If the bike fits well just ride it!

Thanks for all the feedback everyone! You are definitely right Bianchigirll. I will email them again to see if they checked in the EU/Canadian database (or their archives). I will say that the bike does look repainted and the Colnago decals are... well... they look like a stencil job. In any case this bike could be a Colnago re-paint gone horribly wrong or a completely different bike (that lost its identity) until someone decided to paint it a Colnago.

Another thing to not about the bike. It has a spike like stud on the headtube facing inside the frame. I wonder if that gives any indication on what it could be.

Thanks again for all the feedback! Looking forward to figuring this frame out!

Colnago USA likely has no way to access that info.

No that little thing is a pump peg. it is used to hold a frame pump in place under the toptube.


OH btw the part of the frame that rear wheel attachs to are dropouts and on the fork they are fork ends. the little tube that rear brake mounts to is the brake bridge.

Ah ok... lol thanks for the terminology! Always learning!

As for Colnago-America they can forward my email to their head office in Italy which is what I thought they were doing originally but I was surprised by a response today by Colnago-America and not their HQ in Italy. I will ask them to forward my case to HQ to see if they have any info regarding their European and Canadian models.

In the meantime keep sending my feedback! I really want to crack this case!
Cheers

I would be surprised if Colnago has all the relevant - I'm highly skeptical that the record-keeping was all that great. So I don't necessarily think that's the final word. That said, it seemed like a bit of a longshot from the outset - though not out of the question - that it was a Colnago. So many builders of the era called out their frames via details cast into the lugs, etc., that the absence of those call-outs argues for a mid-range machine, possibly by a generic manufcaturer - i.e. maybe built for a bike shop brand. Doesn't mean it's not worth owning, or that it won't ride great.

Hey all,

This is what Colnago-America wrote back,

"...all serial numbers are recorded in Italy for every frame that is produced, whether or not it is made in the factory in Italy. The office in Italy looked into the serial number and the photos of the frame and they do not match any make or model that Colnago has produced. Furthermore, the only two places that Colnago bicycles are produced are in Italy and Taiwan. Even during the bike boom, they were still made in Italy. Colnago did not outsource their production of bicycles to anyone during that time period."

With that being said we can rule out Colnago.

@Picchio Special: Thanks for your feedback. Was it common that bike shops would create their own frames? If so around what era was that popular?

Also seeing as I do not want to be on a bike that misrepresents a good name/company I was planning on re-painting it. Two questions:
1. Would stripping the paint off of the bike reveal any hidden markings? Should I be on the look out for anything in particular other then the serial number?
2. If it was your bike would you have fun with the design and come up with your own name and colors? What would you do in my situation.

Thanks in advance!

Colnago did outsource their production - albeit within Italy. I think it's also pretty well documented that there were some pretty iffy frames made in the low countries under some sort of licensing agreement with Colnago in the 80's. I'm sure they'd like you to believe otherwise - in fact, I have no doubt they believe it themselves. There are plenty of people who know the history of the production of Colnago bikes better than the folks who now work there. As far as I can tell, your bike doesn't have a serial number? Therefore, it of course doesn't match their serial numbers records. Colnago didn't even use serial numbers well into the 80's - so how could all the serial numbers be recorded? In other words, I do not think we can rule out Colnago. That would presume that Colnago is on top of these issues - and they're not. They're now trying to reclaim some kind of control of their legacy and history by being late to the party, as far as their older frames are concerned. As recently as 10 years ago, they wouldn't have even given a crap about their old frames or helping people identify them.
That said, I'm skeptical that your bike is a Colnago, and have been from the get-go. If it is, it's not a valuable for special one, so it's perhaps not even a relevant issue or one spending a ton of time exploring.
Bike shops didn't create gtheir own frames, necessarily, but they very commonly created their own brands and outsourced the production to someone who specialized in doing just that - such as BMZ or Billato, or even a local builder. That was true from at least the 70's on - possibly earlier. Chesini is a great example - it was originally a bike shop outsourced brand that eventually achieved wider recognition. In fact, Chesini is still a bike shop in the center of Verona to this day.
I doubt your going to find additional clues. I would do with the bike what you want to, at this point.

All incredibly great points. Thanks very much for explaining, in brief detail, the history! History fascinates me and so does cycling. To learn more about the history of this sport is a really great thing and I thank you all for putting in your feedback. I'm a graphic designer so I really appreciate great design I feel that this bike has that. It's unfortunate that we wont be able to attach a name to it but it opens up new doors as far as creativity is concerned and I'm looking forward to putting a new twist to this old frame.

While this thread is still somewhat alive what are your thoughts on the components? Handlebar and group set?

The group is Nuovo Record right? great stuff was top of the line for decades. Cinelli bar/stem? still top notch.

Just a shot here any chance it ia Geurciotti? what is somebody stipped and painted or even just changed the decals? That may jive with the stem being pantographed.

The group is Nuovo Record right? great stuff was top of the line for decades. Cinelli bar/stem? still top notch.

Just a shot here any chance it ia Geurciotti? what is somebody stipped and painted or even just changed the decals? That may jive with the stem being pantographed.
I've seen enough Guerciottis - even early 70's ones - to believe there would be more call-outs on the frame. Unless it was very third-tier - and even then, wouldn't you expect a star in the fork crown? In and of itself, the stem is no better indicator than the paint, IMO.

Well it's still worth a shot and I emailed Guerciotti. We'll see what they say. You never know. The handlebar is a 3TTT Guerciotti, Seat post and group set (NUOVO RECORD) Campagnolo. And it was mentioned that the forks were replaced. So I don't believe those are original.

I'll let you all know if Guerciotti gets back to me. If they can't verify it I'll put my design skills to work and come up with something creative. Expect another thread somewhere regarding design feedback. I'll be looking to use other company logos as reference if/when I create my own emblem/bike company name for this bike.

Didn't Guerciotti's have a star cutout on the bottom bracket shell and various parts on the frame...brake bridge, lugs, fork crown and tangs? I don't think it's a Guerciotti. So how much did you drop on this "Colnottinago"?

Given my lack of knowledge at the time (and still) and the fact that this has just been realized... I paid waaaay to much. I feel embarrassed to say but $600.00 CAD... Major rookie mistake I know it now and lesson learned. So far this forum has educated me on a TON of information regarding vintage bikes not to mention the amount of research I've done over the past few months to better understand the sport.

Anyways If it isn't any type of make at least it will be a fun project to create an image and name for this bike. And it rides awesome so I can't really complain.

Given my lack of knowledge at the time (and still) and the fact that this has just been realized... I paid waaaay to much. I feel embarrassed to say but $600.00 CAD... Major rookie mistake I know it now and lesson learned. So far this forum has educated me on a TON of information regarding vintage bikes not to mention the amount of research I've done over the past few months to better understand the sport.

Anyways If it isn't any type of make at least it will be a fun project to create an image and name for this bike. And it rides awesome so I can't really complain.

I've made many mistakes, some very expensive, with bicycles.

Try crashing a friend's custom Strong all-rounder one week after he received it on for size!

Just go enjoy the bicycle and ride the wheels off her.

It doesn't look like anyone is going to identify the frame. Here's my two cents. I am no expert, but I bought my first Colnago in 1973. The frame looks like early to mid "80's". The paint looks like Colnago early "90's". The frame is most likely Italian made by a craftsman. People can talk about mid level and low level, but people didn't put Nuovo Record on junk bikes. By the way the RD crank and hub lock nuts are date stamped. So what you do have is a very nice frame with paint you could not replace for $1000 the parts which would bring more than the purchase price. So enjoy Ed

Who can put a price on a great day of riding on a bike that you love? Throw in some sandwiches, a cold beer or two, a loved one and it is priceless.

Thanks Ed! That was much appreciated. Excited to know that this purchase wasn't a total bust. The fact that I'll never really know the true identity of this frame makes me want to give it a new look. Plus I've got to say that the paint job looks fairly new and nothing special up close. You can tell that the Colnago name was spray painted and not factory decals or even replicas just sprayed. Anyways looking forward to revamping this bad boy!

jet SanchEz you couldn't have said it better myself!

All the very best everyone.
Cheers
Jon

I don't know why, but when I saw the photos I thought 'Faggin' .

Hi Jon from about the late "80's" Colnago didn't use decals. The graphics were air brushed. If the Colnago script bothers you you can always make up stick ones to cover them. I think half the buzz of collecting is trying to identify the unknowns. You can try the English and Italian collector forums. Also Classic Rendezvous Forum. However it turns out you got a very nice bike at a fair price. Ed

I don't know why, but when I saw the photos I thought 'Faggin' .

Faggin used pantographs on the frame in a few spots. I do not think it is a Faggin either

Given my lack of knowledge at the time (and still) and the fact that this has just been realized... I paid waaaay to much. I feel embarrassed to say but $600.00 CAD... Major rookie mistake I know it now and lesson learned. So far this forum has educated me on a TON of information regarding vintage bikes not to mention the amount of research I've done over the past few months to better understand the sport.

Anyways If it isn't any type of make at least it will be a fun project to create an image and name for this bike. And it rides awesome so I can't really complain.

$600 is not awful. You got perhaps a $350 bike, plus a $250 education. I would suggest that the majority of 'repainted Colnagos" out there today are not Colnagos, so there are whole lot of possibilities for this kind of purchase to occur. If it fits you, isn't damaged (why was the fork replaced? usually due to a front-end crash, but not always), and rides nicely then no big deal, really. You will be a whole lot smarter next time, right? That's what matters now....