General Cycling Discussion - I just got pedal toe clips... and I hate them.

So i always heard how the clips are awesome, how you can pull your pedals up now, effectively doubling your power, and my friend swears by them. So I decided to invest in them and... I absolutely hate biking with them on!

My main beef is that they restrict HOW I pedal, forcing me to keep my feet at a certain position. I tend to bike with the middle of my foot, but the clips make me pedal with the part closer to the front. I feel like I am "tip-toeing" on the pedal. It feels akward and actually makes me pedal LESS EFFICIENTLY since I cant put full force of my foot on it. So whatever speed boost I get from pulling up is lost.

Secondly, maybe I need to rise my seat, but with my legs a bit further back I dont feel like I get to stretch them enough; after a few minutes my legs start feeling cramped. Urgh!

And the last thing, I am finding that fact that I am now rising the pedal with my legs affecting my endurance. I mean, with regular pedaling you push push, rest rest, push push, rest rest etc. But with these, the push-pull-push-pull, your leg does not get ANY rest; it's far more tiring and while you may get more "power" you end up loosing in the duration!

So tell me BikeForums, do others find similar experiences, or am I proverbially "doing it wrong?"

Toe clips?

Or clipless pedals?

Two different things.

And it is possible you've been pedalling with the wrong part of your foot (you should be pedalling with the ball of your foot or the back of the ball of your foot) ... and it is possible you've got your bicycle set up wrong.

Also, with regular pedaling you do not "push push, rest rest, push push, rest rest etc." You're completely in the wrong gear if you ride like that. You should be spinning round and round and round and round and round and round and round ... until you finish your ride. With the occasional coast break if you go downhill or round a corner or something.

Don't pull up with your leg on the upstroke, just unweight it.

Quite possible that is you are using old fashioned toe clips and straps and that the clips are the wrong size and do not allow for proper foot position and if you are using clipless that your cleat is too far forward and puts your foot in the wrong position.

A good deal of research has shown that a good number of clip-less pedals do not allow enough range of adjustment to get an optimal foot position and one should not be pedalling on the ball of their foot and some recent changes in design, in response to this research, now has us seeing shoes that allow for a cleat that can be moved back much farther.

Take a look at where your feet sit when you ride flat pedals and most often the centre line of pedal spindle will fall behind the ball of the foot... this is a fairly natural and comfortable pedalling position and reduces stress to the smaller joints of the foot and a clip less or clipped set up should give you this.

As for pedalling it is rare that you ever want to be pulling up with the trailing leg except for brief efforts and a smooth pedaling stroke where you spin in smooth circles and un-weight the trailing leg as it comes through the bottom of the pedal stroke and up is most efficient.

You want to be able to bring your foot through the bottom of the pedal stroke with your foot nearly flat and the best way to describe the end of the pedal stroke is to be as if you were scraping mud off the bottom of your shoe before your leg gets a little reprieve as it comes up and around.

It takes practice but after you develop a smooth pedalling stroke it will change your riding experience forever.

never pedal, pedal, rest, rest, rest, unless you have to wait for your 6 year old to catch up. turn that crank non stop! downshift when you get tired or if coming up on a light/corner but keep them spinning.
I never liked toe clips. they would make the top of my foot hurt. the only benefit I ever found was that if your shoes are wet you had alot less chance of slipping off the pedals. Clipless pedals are much better for the push/pull/forward/back motion but not everyone wants to carry special shoes in their backpack. and yes it is more efficient stroking when your feet are welded to the cranks.

My main beef is that they restrict HOW I pedal, forcing me to keep my feet at a certain position. I tend to bike with the middle of my foot, but the clips make me pedal with the part closer to the front. I feel like I am "tip-toeing" on the pedal. It feels akward and actually makes me pedal LESS EFFICIENTLY since I cant put full force of my foot on it. So whatever speed boost I get from pulling up is lost.

The standard positioning of the feet on pedals is to have the balls of the feet over the pedal axle (approximately). It seems that you have your foot arch over the axle, which means your foot is too far forward (this position is fairly typical for casual cyclists).

Having the balls of the foot over the axle makes it easier (more efficient) to apply power over more of the crank rotation (but it might take some getting used to).

It's possible that the toe clips/cages are too small but it's also possible that they are forcing you to put your foot in the "correct" position.

You should indicate how far you ride. If you ride short distances, don't worry about using cages.

Anyway, it could be that the cages are forcing you to change what you are doing and it's could be that that is a good thing.

Your initial reaction might differ from your long-term view. One option is to stay the course for awhile and see whether you end up liking them. Maybe go for a month's time and reassess.

The other approach is to bin the clips and go with flats. Many riders do, in fact, ride without being clipped in. I do. My good friend and riding buddy does. Heck, he's even got mountain-bike flats on his Specialized Roubaix. He could care less what people think about that, and he easily leaves me in the dust when he chooses to put the hammer down. He is an excellent rider with good endurance.

In the end, just ride what you enjoy. If you're not smiling, change parts until you do smile.

And if you would like to read a viewpoint against clips from someone prominent, here ya go:

http://www.bikejames.com/strength/flats-vs-clipless-please-prove-me-wrong-why-i-wont-let-it-go/ (http://www.bikejames.com/strength/flats-vs-clipless-please-prove-me-wrong-why-i-wont-let-it-go/)

I did not realize their value until I got this mantra in my head and finally started doing it - "spinning little circles, spinning little circles". Until you do, the natural rhythm of clipped in won't be any benefit to you.

Stomp, stomp, stomp or stomp, pull up, stomp are both very inefficient and tiring compared to "little circles" - hard to believe but it is true. Use lower gears more until you get the experience.

And actually, you don't need either toeclips or clipin pedals to use the "spinning little circles" technique, but I think they help to keep your feet in the right position on the pedal and your ankles at the right angle for transferring power to the bike. Good luck.

The other approach is to bin the clips and go with flats.

From what he says, he's not riding with clipless pedals ... he's riding with toe clips. Is that what you're talking about too?


The OP will have to return and clarify for us what exactly he is using.

The toe clip box is too small. They come in sizes.

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/mks-steel-toe-clips/?dest=18&curr=usd&lang=en&utm_source=google&utm_medium=base&utm_campaign=us&utm_content=MKS-MKS_Steel_Toe_Clips

Or you might try Power Grips:

http://kentsbike.blogspot.com/2005/11/power-grips.html

remove the straps and cut off the top of the clip and make them mini clips. they are what I prefer.

you can also buy miniclips new but I found it hard to find any that were big enough for my shoe, so many are too tight/small

here's an example
http://www.amazon.com/Zefal-Cristophe-Mountain-Bicycle-Clips/dp/B000JDZQ0W/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1335627271&sr=8-1

Ok what size shoes do you wear? what size toe clip did you buy ?

pedaling with the arch of your foot over the pedal axle is bad form..

so having the toe clip not letting you retain the poor foot positioning

on the pedal is not a design flaw.



I tend to bike with the middle of my foot, but the clips make me pedal with the part closer to the front. I feel like I am "tip-toeing" on the pedal. It feels awkward

and perhaps you have the saddle height too low.

taller saddle and the 'ankling technique' and faster cadences aids the efficiency of effort.

I love my SPD pedals!

Size 14 shoe so I added spacer.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/10wheels/Toe%20Clips%20no%20Straps/metalhalfclips009.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/10wheels/Toe%20Clips%20no%20Straps/toeclipstwo001.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/10wheels/Toe%20Clips%20no%20Straps/toeclips.jpg

Sorry I am not 100% familiar with the terminology - I meant I got those clips that extend forward in front of the pedal and wrap up around your toes:
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/mks-steel-toe-clips/?dest=18&curr=usd&lang=en&utm_source=google&utm_medium=base&utm_campaign=us&utm_content=MKS-MKS_Steel_Toe_Clips
But mine also have a strap that goes over my foot from side to side of the pedal (power grips?)

ALSO when I say "push rest push rest" I did NOT mean I stop pedalling. I just meant how one naturally gets like a split second of "rest" in a full cycle - when you push the foot down you are exerting force, but as the pedal comes up you are not pushing it anymore. With the clips, I am now pulling it up, so I am constantly exerting force, which is more tiring I am finding.

and as for distance, I dont measure it, but I usually bike 30-60 minutes and my area has lots of occasional inclines/hills, it's not very flat.

Hmmm, I never actually measured where my foot lies on the pedal, I just went with what felt natural and resulted in the most efficient force on the pedal; I just assumed it's middle-ish but now I am no longer sure, it might be more of the ball - I never actually thought about it (again, it just felt natural!) Could it be the 'wrong' position? Maybe. But if I enjoy it and it has not caused me any pain or discomfort in the years I've been biking (I always biked the same), does it honestly matter?

I was considering returning them, but figured I'd give it a few more rides and see if I can adjust. And in retrospect, I probably should have checked for size, I just let the bike store guy sort it out for me.

You do indeed have traditional toe clips and straps. What 10 Wheels is illustrating is a variation referred to as mini clips or toe clips without straps.

I prescribe lotsa one-leg drills.
and as another poster noted, ball of foot in the vicinity of pedal spindle. also noted earlier, clip size is crucial.

I always have at least one bike with BMX platforms, and a couple with clips&straps. This one will be going back to clips and straps soon. I run the platforms on it for winter riding - my big ol' waterproof boots just don't work with clips and straps.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7154/6615246205_28df5b229a_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lesterofpuppets/6615246205/)

But if I enjoy it and it has not caused me any pain or discomfort in the years I've been biking (I always biked the same), does it honestly matter?

Toe clips (and other foot retention systems) are for performance and aggressive riding. If you don't ride like that, that no, using them is not important.

I should point out that by "performance and aggressive riding," I don't mean just racing. Commuting can be aggressive, and as an example of where toe clips may come in handy is when launching hard from a light to get up to speed quickly (aggressive action), and particularly in wet or cold (i.e. slippery) conditions where a foot might slip from the pedal and put you in a dangerous, potentially fatal, situation. The clips will keep any shoe, on any pedal, in place, and slipping becomes a non issue.

If you want to eek that extra measure of performance out of your cycling, you can only achieve that by using a foot retention system. If you're just casually noodling along and not challenging yourself, then you can forget about 'em.

ALSO when I say "push rest push rest" I did NOT mean I stop pedalling. I just meant how one naturally gets like a split second of "rest" in a full cycle - when you push the foot down you are exerting force, but as the pedal comes up you are not pushing it anymore. With the clips, I am now pulling it up, so I am constantly exerting force, which is more tiring I am finding.

The clips are not forcing you to pull up.


and as for distance, I dont measure it, but I usually bike 30-60 minutes and my area has lots of occasional inclines/hills, it's not very flat.
That's a fairly short for a bicycle ride.


Hmmm, I never actually measured where my foot lies on the pedal, I just went with what felt natural and resulted in the most efficient force on the pedal; I just assumed it's middle-ish but now I am no longer sure, it might be more of the ball - I never actually thought about it (again, it just felt natural!) Could it be the 'wrong' position? Maybe. But if I enjoy it and it has not caused me any pain or discomfort in the years I've been biking (I always biked the same), does it honestly matter?
Either something is the "most efficient" or it is not. So, in some sense, it does matter. You are free to pedal in any way that you prefer but your preference might not be the most efficient. Given the short duration of your rides, you don't necessarily need to be the most efficient.


but figured I'd give it a few more rides and see if I can adjust.
Many things that are new require some time to adjust.

Problem is toe clips is that for road riding people don't have the proper shoe for them because their not sold in LBS's or most on line stores. The proper shoe had a plastic or wood cleat with a horizontal slot for the edge of the pedal cage to "clip" into when you slid your foot in. Without that cleat you can't pedal like you can with clipless without cinching down the strap too tight, and if you don't cinch the strap you could pull your foot out when pedaling.

Toe clips can work with lugged touring or walking or hiking bike shoes because the lugs can slip into the pedal cage. Or you need to buy these for your road shoes: http://www.yellowjersey.org/tocleat.html notice the slot? But in order to work right you need those cleats.

Once you get those on your shoes you don't have to cinch the strap down as tight so you just lift and pull your foot out. I've been riding with these toe clips for over 40 years, they are completely natural for me to use, and we all use to race with those back in the day so they work for racing. I wear a shoe for road riding with the cleats, but when I tour I don't, I use a Performance brand touring shoe designed for walking with a toe clip pedal system.

Also what's cool about toe clips is if you want to take a quick ride with the kids you can slip into the clips with any shoe you have on without putting pedals covers etc, just ride.

My main beef is that they restrict HOW I pedal, forcing me to keep my feet at a certain position. I tend to bike with the middle of my foot, but the clips make me pedal with the part closer to the front. I feel like I am "tip-toeing" on the pedal. It feels akward and actually makes me pedal LESS EFFICIENTLY since I cant put full force of my foot on it. So whatever speed boost I get from pulling up is lost.


Think about your foot position when you walk up stairs. You use the ball of your foot. Same as on a bike.

Stop partying like it's 1979 and get clipless. They are much nicer than toe clips. Get an MTB set up and you can even have comfy shoes if that's your thing!

Sorry I am not 100% familiar with the terminology - I meant I got those clips that extend forward in front of the pedal and wrap up around your toes: But mine also have a strap that goes over my foot from side to side of the pedal (power grips?)

You have traditional toe clips. I don't think toe clips are supposed to "effectively double your power" ... clipless pedals don't either, but toe clips definitely won't. About the only thing toe clips will do is help keep your foot in the right position, and help keep your foot in place when you do things like standing ... but only if you've got the correct size and have them set up correctly for you. And they'll only be comfortable if you're wearing the right type of shoes (solid toes, flat solid soles).

Also, something to keep in mind, toe clips can actually be more dangerous than clipless pedals if you cinch the straps down.



ALSO when I say "push rest push rest" I did NOT mean I stop pedalling. I just meant how one naturally gets like a split second of "rest" in a full cycle - when you push the foot down you are exerting force, but as the pedal comes up you are not pushing it anymore. With the clips, I am now pulling it up, so I am constantly exerting force, which is more tiring I am finding.

Try riding as though you are scraping the mud off the bottom of your shoes, rather than push, push, push.



and as for distance, I dont measure it, but I usually bike 30-60 minutes and my area has lots of occasional inclines/hills, it's not very flat.

OK, those are your short evening rides ... what about your longer rides on the weekends? If you're tiring after 60 minutes, it sounds like you need to start building up your endurance and strength.



Hmmm, I never actually measured where my foot lies on the pedal, I just went with what felt natural and resulted in the most efficient force on the pedal; I just assumed it's middle-ish but now I am no longer sure, it might be more of the ball - I never actually thought about it (again, it just felt natural!) Could it be the 'wrong' position? Maybe. But if I enjoy it and it has not caused me any pain or discomfort in the years I've been biking (I always biked the same), does it honestly matter?

Where your foot is placed is quite important. Your body on the bicycle is a machine ... a collection of levers. Get it right and you've got something very efficient. Get it wrong, and all you'll struggle with ineffieciency and breakdowns. Study engineering.

When your foot is on the pedal now, with the toe clips, where is the spindle located? Now flip the pedal over and place your foot on the pedal where you used to have your foot. Where is the spindle located? You might need to put your bicycle up on a trainer to do this, or have a friend look, or use mirrors.


I rode with toe clips for years when I was in my teens and early twenties (80s and early 90s). I hated the straps that held my feet in, so they were removed fairly early on. Without the straps they weren't too bad, but when a friend gave me a set of clipless pedals, and I switched, I liked them so much better.

Then I got more into touring and long distance cycling, and back in 2007, I switched to these ... they allow me to clip in when I want, and ride the platforms when I want. Best of both worlds.

http://media.nashbar.com/images/nashbar/products/medium/SH-PDM324-NCL-ANGLE.jpg
http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product_10053_10052_197360_-1___202363

There are several different styles here:
http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10052&storeId=10053&langId=-1&categoryId=202363&facet=mfName_ntk_cs%253AShimano&metaData=&pageSize=&orderBy=&searchTerm=

Come on, man.

You just need some real pedals.

I know, they don't match the spandex and the helmet with a mirror on the side, and the blinky lights, but they work.

Try and see.

http://www.ridemonkey.com/mountain-bike-photos/data/500/1-web-pedal-26.jpg


Your welcome,


Tom

My main beef is that they restrict HOW I pedal, forcing me to keep my feet at a certain position. I tend to bike with the middle of my foot, but the clips make me pedal with the part closer to the front. I feel like I am "tip-toeing" on the pedal. It feels akward and actually makes me pedal LESS EFFICIENTLY since I cant put full force of my foot on it. So whatever speed boost I get from pulling up is lost.

If this is what you are doing, you're not using all of the muscles that you could. You are moving the pedals by pushing down with your thigh muscles, but you could also be using your calf muscles. Spreading the work over more muscle groups is a good thing.

Right now it FEELS inefficient because your calf muscles haven't developed as much as your thigh muscles. It will take a bit of work to balance that out.

Toe clips should position your foot at the point of balance on the balls of your feet. If you feel the pedal tilting back you need a longer clip and if you feel it tilting forward, a shorter one.
To locate the point of balance, try balancing on a brick or other small thing.

Toe clips should be used to enhance a spinning motion, pedalling in circles.

Power can be applied through your legs by pushing hard and slow (in a high gear and slow cadence) or by spinning rapidly with less force (in a lower gear). The same power results in the same speed. Experienced riders prefer high cadence spinning because this is more efficient over long distances. You do need to train at spinning to get used to it.

Footwear for high-performance pedalling is usually quite stiff to resist the bending forces of pedalling hard. If you pedal less hard , you need less stiffness. I use toe clips with regular running shoes (http://www.hi-tec.com/uk/mens-silver-shadow-original-grey-silver-black.html) but also pedal in stiffer trail shoes. Toe-clip friendly shoes have enough grip to engage the pedal but not too much to resist removal, enough reinforcement on the upper to resist abrasion, a clean profile without the sticky-outy mouldings of fashion athletics footwear.

Traditional toe-clip shoes used a slotted bit of metal or plastic (cleat (http://www.yellowjersey.org/CLEAT86.JPG)) attached to the sole to engage with the rear lip of the pedal cage. This improves efficiency but at the cost of safety and convenience. It used to be standard amongst racing cyclists but optional for club touring cyclists and never used by normal everyday riders. These days, clipless pedals use a cleat with a safety release mechanism which is much safer than toe clip cleats.

Modern toe clip use is about the convenience of using normal shoes with the efficiency of correct positioning and a bit of retension from a lose strap. Dont tighten the strap, it is not safe.
If you want the ultimate in efficiency, use a clipless pedal system.

i'm not going to tell you how to pedal a bicycle :lol:, but i will say that if you've been pedaling with the pedal in the middle of your foot, you will need to move the seat up a little when using a position that is more toward the front. and if you can afford it, i would second the notion of getting SPD pedals and shoes.

I should point out that by "performance and aggressive riding," I don't mean just racing. Commuting can be aggressive

Aye, that's how I would describe my rides. I might not ride "long time" in the pro eyes, but I do push myself to pedal as hard and fast as I can while still able to reach my goal. And as I said, being LA, my area is pretty hilly, so I constantly hitting inclines, and feeling the (nice) burn in my muscles.



That's a fairly short for a bicycle ride.



OK, those are your short evening rides ... what about your longer rides on the weekends?


Well I don't know what you guys consider short or long, but an hour 4-5 times a week is plenty to keep me happy and in shape. Half of those are joyrides, and the other half just regular commutes/errands/grocery runs etc. And like I said, I tend to try to go at nearly my max strength hitting bunch of hills on the way, so it's not like Im just cruising on flat ground for an hour.



Try riding as though you are scraping the mud off the bottom of your shoes, rather than push, push, push.


Hmm, never considered biking like that; never really thought about my "form," just biked however felt most enjoyable.



If this is what you are doing, you're not using all of the muscles that you could. You are moving the pedals by pushing down with your thigh muscles, but you could also be using your calf muscles.


I do alternate a bit if some of my muscles start getting sore I will shift my leg up/down or sometimes stand up to let the other parts of my feet do the work for a change. And my calves have actually gotten really well defined, moreso than my thighs I think.

Like I said, I am not a pro cyclist planning whole day trips (yet!) or starting in races; I bike for enjoyment and exercise, but enjoy pushing myself harder each time (which usually means pedaling faster/higher gear rather than longer). I feel like I am in sort of a transition period - I'm no longer "leisurely cruise down the street" casual biker, but I am also not a pro biker either. But that might change in the future; I've definitely been getting more serious about biking and it's my favorite physical activity :)

Like I said, I am not a pro cyclist planning whole day trips (yet!) or starting in races; I bike for enjoyment and exercise, but enjoy pushing myself harder each time (which usually means pedaling faster/higher gear rather than longer). I feel like I am in sort of a transition period - I'm no longer "leisurely cruise down the street" casual biker, but I am also not a pro biker either. But that might change in the future; I've definitely been getting more serious about biking and it's my favorite physical activity :)

Pro cyclists train. Some recreational riders do day trips; others do not.

Anybody can benefit from improvements in efficiency. If you get to the same destination feeling less tired than you used to, that means that you could go faster next time. Or, if you are riding and not doing errands, it means that you could go further next time. It's all about reaching whatever level of fitness that you would like and being able to maintain it.

Aye, that's how I would describe my rides. I might not ride "long time" in the pro eyes, but I do push myself to pedal as hard and fast as I can while still able to reach my goal. And as I said, being LA, my area is pretty hilly, so I constantly hitting inclines, and feeling the (nice) burn in my muscles.

Well I don't know what you guys consider short or long, but an hour 4-5 times a week is plenty to keep me happy and in shape. Half of those are joyrides, and the other half just regular commutes/errands/grocery runs etc. And like I said, I tend to try to go at nearly my max strength hitting bunch of hills on the way, so it's not like Im just cruising on flat ground for an hour.

Hmm, never considered biking like that; never really thought about my "form," just biked however felt most enjoyable.

I do alternate a bit if some of my muscles start getting sore I will shift my leg up/down or sometimes stand up to let the other parts of my feet do the work for a change. And my calves have actually gotten really well defined, moreso than my thighs I think.

Like I said, I am not a pro cyclist planning whole day trips (yet!) or starting in races; I bike for enjoyment and exercise, but enjoy pushing myself harder each time (which usually means pedaling faster/higher gear rather than longer). I feel like I am in sort of a transition period - I'm no longer "leisurely cruise down the street" casual biker, but I am also not a pro biker either. But that might change in the future; I've definitely been getting more serious about biking and it's my favorite physical activity :)
Well, then I guess the next level for you is to start learning about how to ride better, and disabusing yourself of some of those old habits of a rookie, such as pedaling on the arches of your feet. You'll get better, stronger, faster, and more able if you practice good form.

Keep the toe clips and straps, and learn to ride them. You'll be a better cyclist for it.

Aye, that's how I would describe my rides. I might not ride "long time" in the pro eyes, but I do push myself to pedal as hard and fast as I can while still able to reach my goal. And as I said, being LA, my area is pretty hilly, so I constantly hitting inclines, and feeling the (nice) burn in my muscles.




Well I don't know what you guys consider short or long, but an hour 4-5 times a week is plenty to keep me happy and in shape. Half of those are joyrides, and the other half just regular commutes/errands/grocery runs etc. And like I said, I tend to try to go at nearly my max strength hitting bunch of hills on the way, so it's not like Im just cruising on flat ground for an hour.



Hmm, never considered biking like that; never really thought about my "form," just biked however felt most enjoyable.



I do alternate a bit if some of my muscles start getting sore I will shift my leg up/down or sometimes stand up to let the other parts of my feet do the work for a change. And my calves have actually gotten really well defined, moreso than my thighs I think.

Like I said, I am not a pro cyclist planning whole day trips (yet!) or starting in races; I bike for enjoyment and exercise, but enjoy pushing myself harder each time (which usually means pedaling faster/higher gear rather than longer). I feel like I am in sort of a transition period - I'm no longer "leisurely cruise down the street" casual biker, but I am also not a pro biker either. But that might change in the future; I've definitely been getting more serious about biking and it's my favorite physical activity :)

Still, try some one-leg drills. You'll soon get a feel for how inefficient your pedal stroke is. I've even done one-leg drills on BMX platforms. That was pretty ridiculous at first but I actually got 'em down. Just gotta spin up to about 90rpm before going one-leg.

Another point about fore/aft foot placement. I like to run MTB clips a size up compared to roadie clips. A little more insertion just feels a little more secure in the rough stuff, in the air, etc.

Well, I gave myself a full day rest after a whole week to recover, had a big nutritious lunch, went for toe clip ride #2 aaand... much better.

One thing I realized is that initially the straps were too tight and I wasn't able to push my foot all the way in, which is probably what made the initial ride feel really awkward (the tip-toeing sensation). Felt much less weird after adjustment. Secondly, I actually checked how I bike without them and I was wrong, I definitely bike with a more forward part of my foot; not quite how I "should be" but definitely much closer to the ball than I thought. Funny how muscle memory works; I've done the movements thousands of times but apparently cant describe it accurately.

Also, when you guys talk about biking time, do you mean the whole biking-escapade, OR do you mean just the time actually spent pedaling? Cause when I mentioned my time I am excluding little stops or short rides between two close by places. For example, today I was biking to Pasadena where I ended up strolling around checking a few stores out on the way and doing lots of back-and-forth I dont include. So I'd say I biked an hour and a half (time to-from Pasadena), but I've actually been gone four hours and was biking on-and-off the whole time.



Try riding as though you are scraping the mud off the bottom of your shoes, rather than push, push, push.



I just tried doing this today consciously and it felt a bit weird at first but I think I finally got what you meant - I could definitely feel more of a burn in my calves and other muscles, and I felt like I was able to build greater speed this way (tho that might have been a full day rest yesterday and my proten+carb full lunch before the ride). Doing this is more tiring overall, but that's not something more rides and yummy lunches wont fix in the long run hehe :D


So yea, overall, second experience with toe clips, after some minor adjustments, has been much better, and I am also seeing the potential in the more up-front pedaling form, once I can re-train my muscle memory to it. The clips do a good job of forcing me into that, so they are serving their purpose I guess!

When I was intro'd to toe clips, it was explained to me that they let you spin better because you're not expending effort on keeping your feet on the pedals. i've used clips and straps on most of my bikes. I'll give it a try without and see how it is.

Regarding cycling time ... when Rowan and I go out for an evening ride, we usually ride 25-30 km with one stop at the turnaround point (our rides around here are out-and-back) for about < 3 minutes. 25-30 km takes us a little over an hour (including the break) ... at 20 km/h, 25 km will take us 1:15 and 30 km will take us 1:30.

On the weekends, the sky is the limit ... 40 km, 50 km, 160 km, 300 km ... whatever we're up for.

If you tighten the straps on toe clips tight enough to be able to really pull up on the pedals, then you will have difficulty getting your foot out when you really need to. To get the most benefit from having your foot attached to the pedals, you need to get "clipless" pedals and cycling shoes. Even then, I doubt that the efficiency gains are as large as so many people believe them to be. Does anyone have a study that proves it? I understand the theory of being able to pull up on the pedals on the return stroke, but my seat of the pants power meter guesstimate is that if you had perfect pedaling form you could maybe gain up to 10% by switching to clipless pedals or really tight toe clips. It's probably much less than that for most people though.

Also, it's great that those hybrid pedals work for Machka, but I hate those things. Seems like every time you ride with regular shoes you end up getting the clip side and when you switch to bike shoes you keep hitting the non clip side when starting out. Pain in the butt. I'd much rather ride with platform pedals and normal shoes all the time than deal with that compromise.

Also, it's great that those hybrid pedals work for Machka, but I hate those things. Seems like every time you ride with regular shoes you end up getting the clip side and when you switch to bike shoes you keep hitting the non clip side when starting out. Pain in the butt.

And so ... you take the 1 second to flip the pedal. Not a big deal at all. You have to do that with some clipless pedals, and even more so with toe clips anyway.

If you tighten the straps on toe clips tight enough to be able to really pull up on the pedals, then you will have difficulty getting your foot out when you really need to.
I don't think pulling up on the pedals is happening to the degree you think it is. The big gain is in always having your foot in place throught the stroke, and in particular at the top of it, when you're kicking over, and through the downstroke. Yeah, when you're at the bottom and working back up uou're pulling and want your foot secured as well, but depending on your sole and pedal, the straps don't have to be so tight as to render foot extraction dificult to be effective.

I've been riding toeclips since '87, and have to say that I find them safer than flats, if only because when it's time to lay on the power, you can count on your foot staying in place and not slipping off the pedal. Rain or shine.

Whatever your seat-of-the-pants estimate is, certainly the fact that that one isn't maximizing pedaling power unless they're using clip less does not recommend forgoing toe clips and running flats; that makes no kind of sense what with the gains to be had in safety and efficiency by using clips ove flats.

I'm an old toe clip user and love them. I usually ride in tennis shoes, shows what a purist I am. ;)

I doubt that I get the maximum power out of them because I don't pull up that much, but they keep my feet in place where they are needed most, they let me extend the time in the power stroke. And riding continuously, that just lets you build up your cardio so you can go farther.

I'm an old toe clip user and love them. I usually ride in tennis shoes, shows what a purist I am. ;)

I doubt that I get the maximum power out of them because I don't pull up that much, but they keep my feet in place where they are needed most, they let me extend the time in the power stroke. And riding continuously, that just lets you build up your cardio so you can go farther.

Max power? I like to see some wattage test done testing the two types of pedal systems because I don't think there's any difference. Riding in tennis shoes don't have the cleat to clip onto the cage of the pedal so you could be losing power there. Toe clips were used in Track racing for years after clipless came along due to the track riders being able to pull their foot off the clipless system unintentionally; You still see that happening every once in a while in just normal racing.

I have both style of pedals, I can't really see much difference in performance, clipless pedals are lighter especially pedals like the Speedplays.

If this is what you are doing, you're not using all of the muscles that you could. You are moving the pedals by pushing down with your thigh muscles, but you could also be using your calf muscles. Spreading the work over more muscle groups is a good thing.

Right now it FEELS inefficient because your calf muscles haven't developed as much as your thigh muscles. It will take a bit of work to balance that out.

If you are lighting up your calf muscles while you are cycling you are doing it wrong... the primary power comes from the upper leg and glutes and engaging your calf muscles to a high degree is very inefficient.

When I was intro'd to toe clips, it was explained to me that they let you spin better because you're not expending effort on keeping your feet on the pedals. i've used clips and straps on most of my bikes. I'll give it a try without and see how it is.

Not sure what your meaning, so I'll go ahead and comment. Using toe clips or clipless pedals allow you to spin the same way; I can easily spin to 120 using toe clips, there's no difference in spinning; you also don't expend any effort trying to keep your feet on the toe clip pedals any more then you do with clipless pedals...IF your using the cleats intended for toe clip pedals, problem is most people don't use the cleats so they then have problems and assume toe clips are old school junk, their not.

Also your not going to have difficulty pulling your foot out with straps when stopping if again your using the cleats intended for toe clips.

And this nonsense about being able to pull up on the pedals is crazy especially if your spinning higher then 80 rpms. Instead of commenting about it, read this: http://claire-lunardoni.suite101.com/road-bike-pedaling-technique-a147197 The most your going to be able to do is unweight the pedal with the foot that is trying to pull up. http://www.spinning.com/en/file/download/tinymce_file_browser/40/Spinning_Program_Science.pdf

http://www.bikejames.com/wp-content/uploads/Top-3-Clipless-Pedal-Myths-Building-a-Better-Pedal-Stroke.pdf

Well I don't know what you guys consider short or long, but an hour 4-5 times a week is plenty to keep me happy and in shape. Half of those are joyrides, and the other half just regular commutes/errands/grocery runs etc. And like I said, I tend to try to go at nearly my max strength hitting bunch of hills on the way, so it's not like Im just cruising on flat ground for an hour.
There is nothing wrong with that kind of riding. It's just that being efficient doesn't matter as much as it would for longer rides. (We also don't know what you think a "hill" is.)


Also, when you guys talk about biking time, do you mean the whole biking-escapade, OR do you mean just the time actually spent pedaling? Cause when I mentioned my time I am excluding little stops or short rides between two close by places. For example, today I was biking to Pasadena where I ended up strolling around checking a few stores out on the way and doing lots of back-and-forth I dont include. So I'd say I biked an hour and a half (time to-from Pasadena), but I've actually been gone four hours and was biking on-and-off the whole time.
Typically, people talk about distance rather than time. For me, a typical ride, is 50+ miles (I also regularly do rides that are significantly longer). Mostly, people are talking about the time where most of the time is spent cycling.


Hmm, never considered biking like that; never really thought about my "form," just biked however felt most enjoyable.
This indicates that you might not know enough to determine what is the "less (or more) efficient".


So yea, overall, second experience with toe clips, after some minor adjustments, has been much better, and I am also seeing the potential in the more up-front pedaling form, once I can re-train my muscle memory to it. The clips do a good job of forcing me into that, so they are serving their purpose I guess!
Well, yes.

One thing I realized is that initially the straps were too tight and I wasn't able to push my foot all the way in, which is probably what made the initial ride feel really awkward (the tip-toeing sensation).

Here's an alternative to that basket-style clip:

http://www.mountainracingproducts.com/power-grips/

Just thought I'd throw it out there. I have no direct experience to offer. It's just another option to be aware of in case you decide someday that you're not keen on the cages and straps.

Also your not going to have difficulty pulling your foot out with straps when stopping if again your using the cleats intended for toe clips.
I totally disagree with this! If you're using a cleat and a toeclips, you are going to have difficulty disengaging, and this was largely the reason clipless designs utterly killed the old quill pedal/cleat/toe clip combo.

Think about it: the cleat slot is a narrow groove that holds the pedal cage. There is no sideways release motion (or movement, another factor in their demise), so the only way to get out is by lifting up, and you know what? If your toeclips are cinched down tight enough to keep the cleat engaged with the pedal cage, you ain't getting' your foot out.

I remember using those back in the mid-80's when I started cycling, and me and my buddies used to practice our reach-downs to loosen the straps so that we could get out without crashing. For urban riding, they were the kiss of death. I did it and survived, but when I could afford Looks, I bought 'em, and after that, when SPDs came out, I was an early adopter for using on the dirt.

Today I use both SPD and toe clips/straps, but would NEVER dream of using traditional cage cleats...unless a sweet pair of NOS vintage Merkx shoes were to come my way! But in all seriousness, any pedal solution is smarter and safer than cage cleats for road riding.

Toe clips (and other foot retention systems) are for performance and aggressive riding. If you don't ride like that, that no, using them is not important.

I should point out that by "performance and aggressive riding," I don't mean just racing. Commuting can be aggressive, and as an example of where toe clips may come in handy is when launching hard from a light to get up to speed quickly (aggressive action), and particularly in wet or cold (i.e. slippery) conditions where a foot might slip from the pedal and put you in a dangerous, potentially fatal, situation. The clips will keep any shoe, on any pedal, in place, and slipping becomes a non issue.

If you want to eek that extra measure of performance out of your cycling, you can only achieve that by using a foot retention system. If you're just casually noodling along and not challenging yourself, then you can forget about 'em.

Bolding mine.

I had one of those, poorly patched roadwork with about a 1 inch lip that I found out about when I hit it (sideways). Better than even chance that if I was not clipped in I would have had a foot hit with disastorus results.

On a downhill so plenty of speed. Less than an hour later another rider was not so lucky. She went down and suffered a broken collarbone and ruptured spleen.

Not sure what your meaning, so I'll go ahead and comment. Using toe clips or clipless pedals allow you to spin the same way; I can easily spin to 120 using toe clips, there's no difference in spinning; you also don't expend any effort trying to keep your feet on the toe clip pedals any more then you do with clipless pedals...IF your using the cleats intended for toe clip pedals, problem is most people don't use the cleats so they then have problems and assume toe clips are old school junk, their not.


I'm probably not using the right terms. Toe Clips: Metal or plastic that the front part of the shoe fits into,can be used with straps. Clipless: Special pedal that engages a cleat on the shoe? Or is that what it's called if you use neither? Did I get this entirely wrong?
In the past, "clipless" was way too spendy for me and having shoes that might make a long walk even longer was a turnoff.

I totally disagree with this! .

I completely disagree with this! I've been using toe clips for over 40 years including when I use to race in the days that toe clips were all we used, and neither I nor anyone else had a problem getting out of them. Sure you can cinch them so tight your feet can turn blue, but no one did that. The only real cinchers were the track riders who actually had a dual strap instead of a single the roadies used, but those guys could care less if they came out of the pedals fast. Sometimes when I was racing mountain areas I would cinch the strap tighter then normal and your right the foot wasn't going to come out, but it took about 2 seconds to hit the release and you were out. And I've never had an accident that the toe clips were to blame.

...and your right, the foot wasn't going to come out, but it took about 2 seconds to hit the release and you were out.
Ah ha! So you don't completely disagree! :)

Ah ha! So you don't completely disagree! :) HAHAHAHAHHA, I don't completely 100% disagree, your right, but for everyday riding I disagree, where I agree is with track racing and racing in mountains...note I said racing...I never had a problem with a foot coming out of a pedal any more then people do today becoming unclipped in modern pedals...and we know that happens with modern pedals, I've seen it, and you seen it, and we all experienced it if we been riding long enough, and I seen pros do it.