Classic & Vintage - I learn something new every day

The guy that laced the wheels on my '78 Paramount P13 has been around a long time. He worked in one of the first Schwinn dealership in Houston. He allowed me to watch while he re-laced my wheels with double butted spokes and large flange Campy NR hubs. When the subject of wheel and tire size for my P13 first were discussed here on the C&V forum, most everyone was of the opinion that 1978 P13’s originally had 700 wheels and tires. I don't know enough to argue one way or the other but Harry said and showed me in an original Schwinn shop manual that P13’s originally were built with 27" wheels. Now I know why the brake calipers don't quiet reach without almost touching the tires. He said I needed a set of offset caliper mounting bolts if I was going to continue using the 700C wheels. I guess the offset bolt allows the brake pad to reach further down onto the side of the rim. He also told me that he had assembled more Paramount P13-9 bikes than he can recall and all of them got 27” wheels. I’m not sure about all of the Schwinn booklets and brochures I’ve read that stated 700C wheels were for the P13. Knowing all of that I wish I had taken the set of NOS Mavic Module E 27" clinchers with me to Houston. Now the question is, where do I find a pair of offset caliper bolts?

Offset Campy caliper bolts? Prepare to feel like you're getting stiffed. Search "drop bolt".

Edit: Here's one on ebay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-REAR-CAMPAGNOLO-DROP-BOLT-/170832194037?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27c66469f5). Just $50+shipping. I see a NOS one on the bay as well, $80 with 3 days left to go.

Offset Campy caliper bolts? Prepare to feel like you're getting stiffed. Search "drop bolt".

Edit: Here's one on ebay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-REAR-CAMPAGNOLO-DROP-BOLT-/170832194037?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27c66469f5). Just $50+shipping

That's what they were call, drop bolts. Thanks!

You don't see those bolts anymore. Just get long reach brake calipers.

http://www.amazon.com/Tektro-Reach-Calipers-Silver-47-57mm/dp/B001CJV9DU

They're most often referred to as "drop bolts" and while they're not hen's teeth, they don't grow on trees either.

Edit: The former president beat me to it.

http://harmonywaterrestoration.com/drop%20bolt_pg.html

On the topic of drop bolts, I found one on my '73 Ron Kit titanium (on the rear brake only, btw, used to mount a 1st generation DA brake). The bike is outfitted with sew-ups, which seems appropriate and not unexpected for an early titanium race bike. But the drop bolt had me wondering if the frame may have been originally outfitted with 27" wheels. Were drop bolts ever used as spec items, or do they always signify an after-market change in wheel size and/or possibly a change from short- to long-reach calipers?

I've wondered the same thing, gaucho. I have a 1st generation Suntour Superbe brakeset and the front has a drop bolt that looks to be original, but the rear has a standard bolt. Both are the long reach (4700) models.

I told my friend since we are about to paint his bike, it may just be easiest to move the brake bridge down on the rear wheel- melt it off and braze in another one.

Harry is yet another old bike shop codger willing to rely on poor memory and spread incorrect information. Yes, the P13's required drop bolts when converting to 700C, but ONLY for mid-1971 and earlier P13-9's. P13-9's from 1972-1979 are purpose-built for Campagnolo calipers.

This page on The Headbadge should explain everything to your satisfaction: Schwinn Paramount Models (http://www.kurtkaminer.com/TH_schwinnparamount_models.html)

-Kurt

Thanks Kurt. I was hoping someone would straighten me out with the correct information. Can you tell me how to measure the NR calipers I have to see if I need to get a set of Campy NR reach calipers?

When the subject of wheel and tire size for my P13 first were discussed here on the C&V forum, most everyone was of the opinion that 1978 P13’s originally had 700 wheels and tires. I don't know enough to argue one way or the other but Harry said and showed me in an original Schwinn shop manual that P13’s originally were built with 27" wheels.
According to the 1978 X-Tra Lite Specifications (http://www.schwinnbikeforum.com/SLDB/ExtraLite/78xlite1.htm) catalog, the P13-9 came standard with 27" by 1" rims, and 700C was an option: http://www.schwinnbikeforum.com/SLDB/Images/XLite/1978/78xlite04b.jpg

As was discussed in the previous thread, if you wanted tubulars you had to use 700c. If not 27" was your primary choice.

Thanks Kurt. I was hoping someone would straighten me out with the correct information. Can you tell me how to measure the NR calipers I have to see if I need to get a set of Campy NR reach calipers?
You have the bike and the calipers and a 700C wheel, right? Trial fit is the best way to measure. In addition to the reach, the distance of the caliper from brake mounting hole (spacers/washers) is a factor, as well as how far off "radial" the seat stays are. When I've only been shy by a mm or so, I've taken a rat-tail file to the caliper arms to fix things; please don't tell the Campy police.

FWIW, my early April, '71 P13-9 certainly appears to have been designed for 700c wheels, and it doesn't have brazed on cable guides on the top tube. I have the provenance report on this bike, and Richard Schwinn says that he found notes stating it was ordered with heavy duty spokes and a wide range freewheel, the only non-standard items in the notes. The geometry measurements were standard for the 21" P13-9 frame.

I agree with Fender1, it seems the fundamental issue when talking about 700c vs. 27" during that era in the USA would be: tubulars vs clinchers. On my Paramount, someone rebuilt the wheels at some point, lacing 700c Mavic Module E clinchers to the Campy NR hubs. This is exactly what I would have done, so I'm pleased that it was already done when I purchased the bike.

Here are the 700c wheels and the Campy NR brakes:

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp226/wellbiked/020-1.jpg

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp226/wellbiked/012-2.jpg

FWIW, my early April, '71 P13-9 certainly appears to have been designed for 700c wheels, and it doesn't have brazed on cable guides on the top tube. I have the provenance report on this bike, and Richard Schwinn says that he found notes stating it was ordered with heavy duty spokes and a wide range freewheel, the only non-standard items in the notes. The geometry measurements were standard for the 21" P13-9 frame.

I agree with Fender1, it seems the fundamental issue when talking about 700c vs. 27" during that era in the USA would be: tubulars vs clinchers. On my Paramount, someone rebuilt the wheels at some point, lacing 700c Mavic Module E clinchers to the Campy NR hubs. This is exactly what I would have done, so I'm pleased that it was already done when I purchased the bike.

Here are the 700c wheels and the Campy NR brakes:



As Kurt wrote about in his article about the changes made on the different years of the Paramount, there is a few notable differences between a '71 and a '78 P13 along with geometry. The brake pad location in relationship to the rim-side on your bike looks great. With the brake pads adjusted all of the way down on mine, the top edge of the pad are amost touching the tire. I think I may have calipers for a bike with 27" wheels.

As far as I know the P13 didn't get brazed on cable guides. If you have the chrome Campy cable clamps then yours is like my '78 P13.

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i19/cutacroshorty/Bicycles/P1130003.jpg

As far as I know the P13 didn't get brazed on cable guides. If you have the chrome Campy cable clamps then yours is like my '78 P13.

I think my bike and Pastorbob's March '71 Flamboyant Red P13-9 are two very early examples of these bikes with the cable clips (no brazed on guides). We've discussed this in another thread or two; March and April of '71 are a little earlier than expected to see P13-9 frames without the brazed on guides, I think........Yes, my bike has the Campy cable clips for the rear brake cable.

The guy that laced the wheels on my '78 Paramount P13 has been around a long time. He worked in one of the first Schwinn dealership in Houston. He allowed me to watch while he re-laced my wheels with double butted spokes and large flange Campy NR hubs. When the subject of wheel and tire size for my P13 first were discussed here on the C&V forum, most everyone was of the opinion that 1978 P13’s originally had 700 wheels and tires. I don't know enough to argue one way or the other but Harry said and showed me in an original Schwinn shop manual that P13’s originally were built with 27" wheels. Now I know why the brake calipers don't quiet reach without almost touching the tires. He said I needed a set of offset caliper mounting bolts if I was going to continue using the 700C wheels. I guess the offset bolt allows the brake pad to reach further down onto the side of the rim. He also told me that he had assembled more Paramount P13-9 bikes than he can recall and all of them got 27” wheels. I’m not sure about all of the Schwinn booklets and brochures I’ve read that stated 700C wheels were for the P13. Knowing all of that I wish I had taken the set of NOS Mavic Module E 27" clinchers with me to Houston. Now the question is, where do I find a pair of offset caliper bolts?

Not this discussion again! Aargh!

P-13s came with 700c tubulars.
You have short-reach calipers, iirc. Originally, your bike had normal-reach calipers. Get some normal-reach calipers and you'll be fine. The difference is 5 mm of reach (between the two types).

Not this discussion again! Aargh!

P-13s came with 700c tubulars.
You have short-reach calipers, iirc. Originally, your bike had normal-reach calipers. Get some normal-reach calipers and you'll be fine. The difference is 5 mm of reach (between the two types).

It on my list but so far I haven't found any nice long reach claipers.

The transition to the newer variant of the P-13 - with the shorter chainstays, 700c wheels, new fork rake, and lack of top tube cable guides - happened in a couple of stages, not overnight. '71 was a transition year.

It on my list but so far I haven't found any nice long reach claipers.

Normal reach is not long reach.