Clydesdales/Athenas (200+ lb / 91+ kg) - Drops: The appendix of the cycling world?

I've posted about some of the changes I've made to my Raleigh Record (converted to straight bars with bar ends), and the new handlebars on my Bianchi Eros that came as a result of my fit session. In both cases, I was starting with an older bike that had drop bars, going back to the 1970s and the 1990s, respectively.

I noticed something when I was in the bike shop. All of the newer road bikes had what the guy who did the fitting called, "modern drops". Instead of dropping down to the hoods, they're pretty much level with the ground until you get to the brake hoods, and then there's a shallow drop - maybe a couple of inches.

By contrast, the bars on the two bikes I've been hacking on sloped down from the bar tops, so the hoods were a good two inches below the bar tops, and the drops were a good couple of inches below that. The radius of the "new drops" is maybe an inch or a little more, where the radius of the old-fashioned drops is at least double that.

Is the drop becoming extinct? Is it sort of a vestigial appendage that we're just going to watch wither away over the next few generations of road bikes, until it disappears entirely? Back in the day, riding in the drops practically meant scraping your nose on the pavement. (I'm exaggerating.) Nowadays, the drop barely provides a change of position from the hoods.

I was told that the objective was to let me use all the possible positions on the bars, which I'm sure is a good goal. But in terms of REALLY different positions, does the modern drop bar effectively provide more positions than say, a straight bar with bar ends? Or mustache bars?

Are we all just getting wimpier? Or is it that we're recognizing that most of us will never compete in the Tour de France, and that being comfortable riding is more important than having the same bike the pros do? If the latter, why do we still bother with drops?

I'm not quite sure I understand what you're getting at.

It is certainly true that the modern fashion is to have the hoods cocked up high, so that the brake levers are at about 90degrees to the ground. Thirty years ago the hoods would have been rotated much lower. Google Roger de Vlaeminck if you want to see what I mean.

BUt the drops arent much different, unless I'm missing your point?

Nobody used them anymore. Look at anyone riding a modern bike with drops, and EVERY ONE of them will be on the hoods. Guaranteed.

I think modern brifters and bars are designed to provide the best platform for people to ride the way they've ridden for years, on the hoods. Still have the drops or tails for decents or beating the wind. Still have the tops to get more upright if that is desired. And many in-between positions if you want to get the hands at a different angle. I've never ridden with mustache bars so can't comment on them but my drop bar bikes give me many more hand positions than my MTB with bar ends.

Nobody used them anymore. Look at anyone riding a modern bike with drops, and EVERY ONE of them will be on the hoods. Guaranteed.

You are mistaken, when on flat ground I almost always revert to the drops. I enjoy being in my drops. I sometimes climb in my drops, I always sprint in my drops,I ride with lots of guys who are in their drops. Yes 70% of the time I'm on either tops or hoods but the drops are our friends I can't understand why more people do not take advantage of them.

You are mistaken, when on flat ground I almost always revert to the drops. I enjoy being in my drops. I sometimes climb in my drops, I always sprint in my drops,I ride with lots of guys who are in their drops. Yes 70% of the time I'm on either tops or hoods but the drops are our friends I can't understand why more people do not take advantage of them.

Get with the times, dinosaur!

Get with the times, dinosaur!

LOL.


This is relevant to something we have been discussing in various forums, namely that these days, people are fitted to frames that twenty years ago would have been regarded as too small for them. People spend all their time on the hoods because the saddle-bar drop is too much for them. On a bigger frame, with a taller head tube, they'd be more comfortable in the drops. This applies even to T-Rex riders.

Modern road bikes are built with what was called a Merckx fit which has more saddle to bar drop than the traditional French fit where the drop from the saddle to bar is less... most modern frames have sloping top tubes which requires a taller seat post and can allow for smaller riders to ride frames with 700c wheels without undue toe overlap which was difficult to do on a conventional road frame.

This means that in most cases a rider on a modern bike can be just about as aerodynamic while riding with their hands on the hoods and modern aero levers allow one to brake from the top of the hoods very effectively... subsequently the drops get used less.

With a French fit the most aero position was in the drops, which were positioned higher, and this set up is also favoured by a number of climbers... Marco Pantani actually had his frames designed to place his drops higher as he spent most of his time there.

I favour a French fit with a more level saddle to bar drop and will spend a lot more time in the drops... drop bars vary widely in their dimensions with different ramp lengths, varying drop, and different flaring to suit every kind of rider. I like rando bars as they are shallower and have a subtle rise from the centre of the bar just before they turn and then flare out at the drops which makes out of the saddle, in the drop climbing easier.

Touring cyclists still favour drop bars and in most cases have a set up where the top of the bar is level with the saddle or even a little higher which makes the drops much more useful... like when you have to spend a day riding into the wind.

Good point chasm.

It's interesting that some racers go through gyrations trying to get "more aero" when a set of bars with more of a drop would have the same effect as designing a whole new frame with a shorter head tube.

Personally, I only use the drops when it's crazy windy or crazy downhill, and even then I sometimes prefer the hoods.

LOL.


This is relevant to something we have been discussing in various forums, namely that these days, people are fitted to frames that twenty years ago would have been regarded as too small for them. People spend all their time on the hoods because the saddle-bar drop is too much for them. On a bigger frame, with a taller head tube, they'd be more comfortable in the drops. This applies even to T-Rex riders.That's plausible, but still - the shape of the drop bars has changed. The old drops were almost a continuous semi-circle descending from the tops. Also, the radius of that semicircle was at least twice that of what I usually see. The net result is that the difference in position between riding on the hoods and tops isn't one of height, but of stretch, and the difference in height between the tops and the drops is less than half of what it was.

To be fair, those really aggressive drops of the 1970s were probably not used a whole lot. In fact, the most common position used was on the tops, hence the birth of the suicide lever. Maybe we haven't gotten wimpier at all, just more realistic.

As far as what I'm getting at is concerned, nothing really. It was just an idle thought.

I noticed something when I was in the bike shop. All of the newer road bikes had what the guy who did the fitting called, "modern drops". Instead of dropping down to the hoods, they're pretty much level with the ground until you get to the brake hoods, and then there's a shallow drop - maybe a couple of inches.

By contrast, the bars on the two bikes I've been hacking on sloped down from the bar tops, so the hoods were a good two inches below the bar tops, and the drops were a good couple of inches below that. The radius of the "new drops" is maybe an inch or a little more, where the radius of the old-fashioned drops is at least double that.

I do agree that the shape of bars has changed slightly. The bars today have less reach and drop as anatomic and shallow drop bars gain in popularity but part of what your seeing is not the shape of the bars themselves. Instead it's how the bars are actually set up. If you look at pictures of older bikes from the 70-90's the drops used to be set up so they were parallel to the ground. That gave you the sligth drop from tops to hoods as you describe. Todays bars are usually set up rotated slightly up with the drops pointing slightly down. This gives the appearance that the top is parallel as you stated and raises where the hoods sit. Below are two pics of older bikes so you can see the set up I am referring too:

249106

249105

Tony, you're spot on. And amongst "modern" bars there are even "compact" ones that have very little drop or reach. Mrs. Fred has a pair of FSA compacts on her Colnago and having only ridden it up and down the block to test shifting, I can report there isn't much change in actual body position compared with the more traditional Cinelli's on my Cannondale.

The times, they are a changing.

For us slightly "larger" guys, the decreased difference between the various positions "may" be a concern. Depending upon what you're after and how you ride. I've been read and watching a few fitting articles lately and the general concensus is that riders do/should spend about 80% of their time on the hoods. I'm sure this is different for Crit racers. But, even watching the pro tour riders you'll see they spend most of their time there.

So, you're not imagining things.

The best thing about all this discussion is it makes one realize nothing is absolute, also we all have different riding styles. I couldn't tell you what my saddle to bar drop is, it's changed so many times since 2007 I just stopped measuring and have it where I am the most comfortable but I can tell you it is by no means level. I remember my first roadbike in the 80's was a Peugot and it was level.

IMO The smaller radii is to be able to shift from the drops. Back in the 70's the idea of a relaxed geo roadbike, normal roadbike, ... wasn't necessary as everyone was selling bikes like never before. Also my limited memory was that older people didn't ride roadbikes. So as the market at least in the USA became the Walley World's (70%) vrs LBS. The LBS had to service niche markets. So the MFGs now offer a plethora of geos to get sales. Around here many LBS don't even stock roadbikes that's because the market is so small and fragmented.

Drops are as awesome as they ever were. But "classic drop bars" were ugly and horribly uncomfortable torture devices. My commuter/errands bike came with a set, and they had to go immediately.


Nobody used them anymore. Look at anyone riding a modern bike with drops, and EVERY ONE of them will be on the hoods. Guaranteed.

Well ... this will be true if you don't look at me. I spend close to 70 % of my time in the drops, around 25 % on the hoods, and the remainder on the tops. The drops are usually the most comfortable position for me, physically, and they give me the most control over the bike. I always descend in the drops, almost always use them to fight the wind, etc. The other positions are for climbing and for changing things up now and then.

Well ... this will be true if you don't look at me. I spend close to 70 % of my time in the drops, around 25 % on the hoods, and the remainder on the tops. The drops are usually the most comfortable position for me, physically, and they give me the most control over the bike. I always descend in the drops, almost always use them to fight the wind, etc. The other positions are for climbing and for changing things up now and then.

/repeat dinosaur comment

http://ruedatropical.com/2009/03/road-drop-bar-geometry/

They're not going away, they're just changing. Same as everything else.

I am only 18 so I can't say I've noticed a difference since I have only owned a road bike for two years; however, I compared an old 1980 Bianchi vs a 2012 Litespeed with Di2 and you can definitely see the difference. But, I use the drops when it's windy, when I am going down hill, when I am sprinting, or when I feel like it. I asked a few friends and they said they don't feel stable in the drops, so maybe that is why people don't use them as often?

I'm much more comfortable in the drops. However, (and this is the Clydes forum) my stomach doesn't like getting kneed repeatedly so I hardly use them at the moment.

/repeat dinosaur comment

Two dinosaurs, in a room with ten people! What are the odds of that? I should go buy a lotto ticket, or have I used up my good luck already? ;)

3 dinos. I like dropbars and use them on my road bike. There are different styles....I just got the Nitto noodles and like them a lot.

I use all five of the five classic positions on my bike (middle, on the curved outer edge, on the hoods, in the curve of the drops and on the flat ends of the drops)..... Yes I spend a lot of time on the hoods, especially in traffic, but would hate to be limited to hoods alone.

I don't know that it's a matter of dinosaurs or non-dinosaurs. Fifteen years ago, I rode quite a bit, and I used the drops for four situations: Climbing out of the saddle, trying to go insanely fast downhill, battling a headwind, and short sprints on flat ground when I was trying to see how fast I could go. I'd say I spent about 98% of my time on the hoods or tops, and maybe 2% or so in the drops.

That bike has a minuscule head tube, and the bars, which were normal for the mid-90s, combined with the really short head tube, and a negative angled stem, put the drops WAY below the seat.

I just got new handlebars with the "new" geometry I've described and a new stem with a positive angle. The bar tops are now slightly higher than the seat, and the drops are only an inch or two below the seat - which puts them a touch higher than my hoods used to be. I found that (despite some lingering neck pain), I can now use the drops much more than I did. I wonder if some of you who are saying that you use the drops a great deal of the time are riding with as aggressive a configuration as was common back in the mid-90s or earlier.

I'm sure there were riders who did ride that way. Just not most people.

I'm not selling the idea that drop bars are useless, in fact, I'm not selling anything. I'm just wondering out loud. If drops were originally intended to provide a way for a rider to get REALLY aero by putting his hands down much lower than the top (and in some cases even the bottom) of the head tube, (as well as providing extra hand positions, etc...), and they're not being used for that primary purpose anymore, is there a better way to fulfill the (original) secondary purpose, i.e. to provide more hand positions?

On my '77 Schwinn Le Tour II
249156
the tops of the bars were slightly lower than the top of the saddle. I rarely rode anywhere but the drops on that bike even when using it as a commuter through traffic.

And I think the fact that most people use the drops very little does not make them outdated. I rarely use the bail out gear on my MTB but am sure glad it is there when I need it and it is the same with my drops. Glad to have the option when facing a 35 MPH headwind.

/repeat dinosaur comment

You are older than me... and I use drop bars on nearly every one of my bikes.

:)

Was riding against a headwind on Saturday and while keeping the same cadence, I lost half a mile per hour by moving out of the drops and onto the hoods. I could never imagine climbing while not in the drops, that is for sure.

Some dinosaurs ride mountain bikes... with drops.

http://www.ravingbikefiend.com/bikepics/2012moulden1.JPG

I wonder if some of you who are saying that you use the drops a great deal of the time are riding with as aggressive a configuration as was common back in the mid-90s or earlier.

I'm sure there were riders who did ride that way. Just not most people.

I'm not selling the idea that drop bars are useless, in fact, I'm not selling anything. I'm just wondering out loud. If drops were originally intended to provide a way for a rider to get REALLY aero by putting his hands down much lower than the top (and in some cases even the bottom) of the head tube, (as well as providing extra hand positions, etc...), and they're not being used for that primary purpose anymore, is there a better way to fulfill the (original) secondary purpose, i.e. to provide more hand positions?

But they are being used for that primary purpose. I ride in the drops for the reasons you outlined, and all those reasons boil down to one thing - to reduce wind resistance. That may be to mitigate a headwind, or it may be to increase the speed I can achieve for a given power output, or it may be to maximise my velocity downhill after I have spun out. It amounts to the same thing. In ordinary windless conditions I'm not, most of the time, concerned with how fast I'm going or how much efficiency I'm losing by being slightly more upright, so I'll spend the majority of the time on the hoods or the tops. But that doesn't make the drops irrelevant, any more than the fact that I only use my lowest gear on very steep hills makes that irrelevant. Both are there for when I need them. That would be so even if I spent only two per cent of my time there, and I'd say the percentage is much greater than that.

Amd to answer your initial question, the TCR that I race on is undoubtedly the most aggressively-configured bike I have ever owned, much more so than the bikes I owned in the seventies and eighties. I'm comfortable on it, have done centuries on it, but I'd usually select a bike with a more relaxed set-up for low-speed touring and endurance riding. And yes, I'll spend more time in the drops on those bikes than I would in a non-racing situation on the TCR.

My saddle to bar drop is right around 3" and I'm thinking of flipping my stem to get a little lower, I only have one spacer left now. I did a lot of pilates and Yoga this past winter and my riding position is totally different. Last year I only had 1" of drop. Funny thing is I have more drop on my MTB.

I suspect one of the reasons lies in the modern road bike racing design as some have mentioned, where folks buy bikes that are designed with an aggressive geometry, which sets the vanilla bar level well beneath the vanilla seat height. There are a lot on the road that are owned by casual, non-racing people.

Racing isn't about feeling comfortable and for most cyclists who are not racing, getting into that level back, optimum aero position by getting onto the nose of the saddle and into the drops isn't that appealing for any length of time.

When I first started riding I tended to stay primarily in the hoods or the tops. However, I purchased a Surly Long Haul Trucker ( factory complete build), which comes with drop bar-end shifters. Not that it is necessary, but on climbs and downhills I will stay in the drops out of convenience and feasibility to shift gears without changing my stability. Now I have become used to it and sometimes prefer the drops. Maybe it is becomes an acquired taste. :)

But they are being used for that primary purpose. I ride in the drops for the reasons you outlined, and all those reasons boil down to one thing - to reduce wind resistance. That may be to mitigate a headwind, or it may be to increase the speed I can achieve for a given power output, or it may be to maximise my velocity downhill after I have spun out. It amounts to the same thing. In ordinary windless conditions I'm not, most of the time, concerned with how fast I'm going or how much efficiency I'm losing by being slightly more upright, so I'll spend the majority of the time on the hoods or the tops. But that doesn't make the drops irrelevant, any more than the fact that I only use my lowest gear on very steep hills makes that irrelevant. Both are there for when I need them. That would be so even if I spent only two per cent of my time there, and I'd say the percentage is much greater than that.

Amd to answer your initial question, the TCR that I race on is undoubtedly the most aggressively-configured bike I have ever owned, much more so than the bikes I owned in the seventies and eighties. I'm comfortable on it, have done centuries on it, but I'd usually select a bike with a more relaxed set-up for low-speed touring and endurance riding. And yes, I'll spend more time in the drops on those bikes than I would in a non-racing situation on the TCR.My idle thoughts were just aimed at trying to explain a phenomenon I've noticed, where MOST of the newer road bikes I've seen lately are configured much less aggressively, with higher bars, higher hoods, and shallower drops. Maybe the real difference between now and in the past is not that there are fewer riders who actively use the drops a significant fraction of the time, but there are now road bike options aimed at more casual riders, who may have always made up the bulk of cyclists, but who didn't get much use out of all the potential positions offered by drops in the past because bikes with drop bars were always configured aggressively. Kind of like making the family sedan look more sporty.

On group rides I notice that most riders are on the hoods maybe 75% of the time but go to the drops anytime they are sprinting or pushing hard. I see very few riders on the tops except when they are just cruising and cooling down.

The drops are usually the most comfortable position for me, physically, and they give me the most control over the bike. I always descend in the drops, almost always use them to fight the wind, etc. The other positions are for climbing and for changing things up now and then.

+1. But not everyone has the enviable orangutan body-type my mother's side blessed me with.

I think the flat top shallow bar has more to do with the prevalence of brifters; i.e. better leverage. But that's always been a fit option, I recall a 30 yr old Sakae bars, and probably others, that had a flat top/reduced curve. Makes some sense that the transition from tops to drops would be less dramatic distance wise, and I agree it's sort of a regression to the mean evolution as more casual riders are buying 'modern' bikes.

I wonder if some of you who are saying that you use the drops a great deal of the time are riding with as aggressive a configuration as was common back in the mid-90s or earlier.

Dunno. I was riding flat bars in the 90s. Here's a photo from a recent ride if you'd like to be the judge.

http://landscapephoto.us/Events/MtBaker/DSC01247.jpg

The background isn't terribly interesting. I climbed Mt Baker (3,500 feet elevation gain in 16 miles), and came into a storm. It was in the high 20s F, and snowing pretty heavily. Thick fog, not too much visibility, and no real scenery. I shot this one more or less to prove I made it; there's a ski area near the top, at Heather Meadows, and they don't have ski maps lower down the mountain.

If you can't ride comfortably in the drops you don't have your bike set up properly.

If you can't ride comfortably in the drops you don't have your bike set up properly.
Best reply yet.

I suspect you would get an entirely different answer to this issue if it were posted in the road section. Substantively different, that is, aside from the snotty attitude.

.

http://landscapephoto.us/Events/MtBaker/DSC01247.jpg




Dang it man its a f'ing Cervelo, could you get some real water bottles? ;)

Dunno. I was riding flat bars in the 90s. Here's a photo from a recent ride if you'd like to be the judge.

http://landscapephoto.us/Events/MtBaker/DSC01247.jpg

The background isn't terribly interesting. I climbed Mt Baker (3,500 feet elevation gain in 16 miles), and came into a storm. It was in the high 20s F, and snowing pretty heavily. Thick fog, not too much visibility, and no real scenery. I shot this one more or less to prove I made it; there's a ski area near the top, at Heather Meadows, and they don't have ski maps lower down the mountain.

Where is your tire changing stuff?

Where is your tire changing stuff?

Like a proper 41'er, not on his saddle. Probably in the middle jersey pocket. I'm not sure of 41'er standards for which side food and snacks go on and which is reserved for spare clothing.

However, the incongruity of the water bottles completely destroys any hope of him escaping ridicule:-)

I like having the drops for the aero reasons listed above but also to be able to get my center of gravity lower and farther back on the bike when descending in case I have to make a quick stop.

Tonight I rode for 25 miles. I would say that I rode 4 of those miles in the drops going 20-35mph. I'd probably spend more time down there but it's difficult to shift even with the women's specific design. Plus that whole Athena deal with the mid-section getting in the way, a little harder to breathe, etc.

Bar tops are 1" below saddle. Drops are about 6" lower than hoods. So it's not a terribly aggressive setup, but it's not upright either.

LOL.


This is relevant to something we have been discussing in various forums, namely that these days, people are fitted to frames that twenty years ago would have been regarded as too small for them. People spend all their time on the hoods because the saddle-bar drop is too much for them. On a bigger frame, with a taller head tube, they'd be more comfortable in the drops. This applies even to T-Rex riders.

I'll go with this. When I started riding again and bought a road bike I wasn't sure what size to get so I let the LBS fit me. I later dug my 1970's road bike out of my parents garage and checked it against my newer bike. There is close to a 2" difference in both the standover height and top tube length. FWIW I've gone back to riding the old bike because it is more comfortable.

Where is your tire changing stuff?

At home, with the bike whose tires can be changed out on the road. This one has tubulars, glued to the rims. I've got a can of Cafe Latex in my back pocket, to seal and re-inflate the tire; if that doesn't work, I'll ride back to the car on the flat tire.

The water bottles are kind of goofy. My other ones need to be washed, and Mount Baker is a 2.5 hour drive each way, so I didn't want to deal with it before my ride. (Actually I've been putting it off a while...)

Nobody used them anymore. Look at anyone riding a modern bike with drops, and EVERY ONE of them will be on the hoods. Guaranteed.

I hit the drops fairly often, especially on club rides where I have to catch my clyde-ass up to the group after a hill.

Actually, it looks like Doohickie is right.

http://i831.photobucket.com/albums/zz231/himura3197/IMG_1188.jpg

^ On the LA Craigslist.

More evidence to support Doohickie's position.

http://flwrider.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/tumblr_m2uk9hrbmb1qap9plo1_500.jpg?w=497&h=665

That dinosaur has well-developed leg muscles!

At home, with the bike whose tires can be changed out on the road. This one has tubulars, glued to the rims. I've got a can of Cafe Latex in my back pocket, to seal and re-inflate the tire; if that doesn't work, I'll ride back to the car on the flat tire.

The water bottles are kind of goofy. My other ones need to be washed, and Mount Baker is a 2.5 hour drive each way, so I didn't want to deal with it before my ride. (Actually I've been putting it off a while...)

you mean you don't go old school and carry a replacement tubular under the seat ? or maybe crossed across the chest of your wool jersey :)

At home, with the bike whose tires can be changed out on the road. This one has tubulars, glued to the rims. I've got a can of Cafe Latex in my back pocket, to seal and re-inflate the tire; if that doesn't work, I'll ride back to the car on the flat tire.

The water bottles are kind of goofy. My other ones need to be washed, and Mount Baker is a 2.5 hour drive each way, so I didn't want to deal with it before my ride. (Actually I've been putting it off a while...)

I always wondered about those tubular tires and how to deal with flats. So thanks! I assume flats are rare?

you mean you don't go old school and carry a replacement tubular under the seat ? or maybe crossed across the chest of your wool jersey :)

No ... but I do wear wool, on and off the bike.


I always wondered about those tubular tires and how to deal with flats. So thanks! I assume flats are rare?

Well, I really don't want to answer that, because I'd jinx myself if I told you that I'd never had a tubular flat, but that I'd flatted twice on my clincher bike since I got the tubulars... I haven't had them all that long, and I've only put 600 to 700 miles on them, so it goes with a big grain of salt. But they don't get pinch flats (which means you can put less pressure in them for a cushier ride), and they deform pretty easily, so you can roll over some things that would flat a clincher and be ok. They aren't guaranteed not to flat or anything like it, but it seems to be more rare. Also, if you do get one and can't fix it, you can usually ride (more slowly) on a flat tubular without damaging your rim.