Classic & Vintage - Re-Simplex-ing a PX10?

So I've found a bit of information on here (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/787966-Campy-on-a-Simplex-dropout-hanger?highlight=simplex+conversion)for converting a Simplex hanger to allow Campy/Suntour/Shimano derailleurs, but I'm in the opposite situation. My Peugeot already has a Campy NR RD/FD/Shifter.

The problem is, I don't really like em. At the very least, I'm hoping to put on some Simplex retrofriction shifters, but I'm curious what my RD options are. Is it feasible or even possible to go back to a Simplex RD? If not, a first-gen Superbe would look at least as appropriate as the NR, and probably work a bit better.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-l-5aP5bON5A/T612c0L4oOI/AAAAAAAAD6A/wZw9T-BWYYw/s800/IMG_0478.JPG
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-S2GgsmnHep0/T612bIusGCI/AAAAAAAAD54/9aEI5v0cKcM/s800/IMG_0479.JPG

I was about to tell you that both a Simplex and a Suntour will mount no problem, but then I noticed something odd on the backside of your hanger. I would expect to see only the end of the hanger bolt there. Something strange has been added.

I suggest that you look for one of the drop-parallelogram Super LJs or an SX610.

I don't like NR derailers either.

Will a Campag/Shimano bolt fit in a Simplex derailleur?

...but then I noticed something odd on the backside of your hanger. I would expect to see only the end of the hanger bolt there. Something strange has been added.

Hmm...not sure what you're referring to. The blue arrow or the red arrow :p

249642

The blue arrow has nothing to do with the derailer. It's a wheel stop. What is that on the end of the derailer mounting bolt and why is that bolt so chewed up? It just doesn't look right to me.

Hi, Suncake-

An LJ or SX series Simplex should still fit. I just measured the bolt diameter on an LJ and it is slightly smaller than the bolt diameter of the stock Simplex Criterium. Nonetheless, it should fit in the back of the Simplex dropout even given the Dremelling and threading to accomodate the Campy derailleur. Simplexes all have a stamped steel tab to act as a range of motion limiter and it is fixed to the derailleur body so the cut to the dropout will not affect it. Have you considered a Criterium? It's a straight fit to the Simple dropout and despite the scorn heaped on plastic Simplexes, the metal reinforcements make them quite effective. I have been using one on a PX 10 on an old Maillard freewheel and it shifts quite well. Just a possibility to consider and much cheaper than than trying to find a reasonably priced LJ.

The blue arrow has nothing to do with the derailer. It's a wheel stop. What is that on the end of the derailer mounting bolt and why is that bolt so chewed up? It just doesn't look right to me.

The bolt sticks out slightly, but there isn't anything attached to it. Is the hanger naturally recessed like that on the inside? The bolt doesn't look the best, but the threads haven't caused any problems.

Super LJs can be expensive, but you can still find good deals if you're patient. I paid $40 for this one, but it was a couple of years ago. The price included the matching FD.

http://inlinethumb50.webshots.com/38065/2102404010068014369S600x600Q85.jpg (http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2102404010068014369toocUd)

The SX610 is a favorite of mine. I had a bunch of them at one time, but I've sold most of them. I don't think I ever paid more than $20 for one. It's pretty much the same as the super LJ above, but it has a steel cage and the arms are plastic under the metal. It weighs something like 35 grams more. I have them on two bikes and I've kept a couple of spares. I replace the pulleys on all Simplexes with Bullseyes. The Criterium that was on my PX10 lasted for 10 years before a pulley disintegrated and left me stranded miles from home.

http://inlinethumb04.webshots.com/48067/2798695160068014369S600x600Q85.jpg (http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2798695160068014369XTwEKz)

So I picked up a 5500 SLJ from Kurt (who else?), but I'm not quite sure how to tighten it, considering the back part of the hanger seems to have been flattened to accept a Campy derailer. I can tighten the hanger enough to prevent the mounting bolt to move, but I'm afraid that the upper pivot will be too tight.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-2X-7HW9aRNY/T8g69Az8wEI/AAAAAAAAEGw/tsINuCpiF8I/s800/IMG_0606.JPGhttps://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-2XlVZa7k7jA/T8g6-6_fpMI/AAAAAAAAEG4/wUlTAcKZCAs/s800/IMG_0605.JPG

I for one wouldn't go with the SX series simplex because they tend to break just below the hanger bolt like this.

http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/zukahn2/Simplex%20Prestige/DSC00631.jpg

I have seen several like this at the local bike coop and had one break on a build recently.

If the 5500 mounts like my 410, your tab is in the wrong position. 5500 experts need to weigh in.

You are correct. The tab needs to be on the front side of the hanger to provide the spring action.

RE: SX-610. I do not care for them. I found them to shift poorly compared to the SLJs I own.

Suncake; yes, your dropout hanger has been permanently altered to accept the Campy derailleur. A somewhat common "drew" back then.

Suncake; yes, your dropout hanger has been permanently altered to accept the Campy derailleur. A somewhat common "drew" back then.

Could you clarify what problems (if any) this causes for the Simplex RD? Thanks.

My guess is that a washer of the proper ID and OD would make that work.

Could you clarify what problems (if any) this causes for the SimLex RD? Thanks.

No reason why it should not work as is. Once you reposition the tab, that is.

The SX-660 is also an affordable alternative to the SLJ units. Like the SLJs, it is all metal, but has a steel pulley cage like the SX-610 and isn't as nicely finished as the SLJ.

http://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/sx660.jpg

Could you clarify what problems (if any) this causes for the Simplex RD? Thanks.

Should work fine, as the others have said, when you position the small tab of the "washer" on the front of the dropout hanger.

I don't have a photo of an early Simplex dropout hanger, but I do have a photo of an SLJ 5000 on a Simplex v2 hanger:

http://www.kurtkaminer.com/TH_DER_HNG_stos.jpg

That tab position on Suncake's RD doesn't make sense though - I'm a bit concerned that there's something wrong with the spring on it. I might have to pull the RD off the Peugeot PY10 to see what the 5500's tab should look like at rest.

-Kurt

So I've found a bit of information on here (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/787966-Campy-on-a-Simplex-dropout-hanger?highlight=simplex+conversion)for converting a Simplex hanger to allow Campy/Suntour/Shimano derailleurs, but I'm in the opposite situation. My Peugeot already has a Campy NR RD/FD/Shifter.

The problem is, I don't really like em. At the very least, I'm hoping to put on some Simplex retrofriction shifters, but I'm curious what my RD options are. Is it feasible or even possible to go back to a Simplex RD? If not, a first-gen Superbe would look at least as appropriate as the NR, and probably work a bit better.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-l-5aP5bON5A/T612c0L4oOI/AAAAAAAAD6A/wZw9T-BWYYw/s800/IMG_0478.JPG
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-S2GgsmnHep0/T612bIusGCI/AAAAAAAAD54/9aEI5v0cKcM/s800/IMG_0479.JPG

I apologize for hijacking this thread, but for some time I've been wondering what the pieces screwed into the back of the dropout are called. My Mercier should have them, but doesn't. All my other bikes have normal dropout adjusters.

The SX-660 is also an affordable alternative to the SLJ units. Like the SLJs, it is all metal, but has a steel pulley cage like the SX-610 and isn't as nicely finished as the SLJ.

http://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/sx660.jpg
The difference between the SLJs and the SX610s are mostly on the parallelogram arms. The SLJ have cast aluminum arms, shile the SX610 RDs had chromed sheet steel covered Delrin (plastic) arms. Don't worry about the Delrin arms though, as the steel wrap on them seems to keep them from busting up like other older Delrin simplex parts after some time. Lots of Simplex SX610 RDs from the 80's still working everyday out there without any problems. I suspect you'll wear out the jockey pulley wheels and cage on them way before the derailleur arms start giving out.

From the pic though, it seems that the SX660 has aluminum arms too, I always thought the the difference between the 610 and the 660 was only the pulley cage legnth for different capacities.

Chombi

I'm failing at getting the tab in the right place. Better post here before I break something. From what I can tell, there's only one orientation that I can get the tab washer to fit...and this won't allow me to get on the other side of the hanger.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-gjKNS4LQaXE/T8k5BqJEH1I/AAAAAAAAEII/g3SB-7FEdHA/s912/IMG_0611.JPGhttps://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Vj64MRBdqx8/T8k5AWHrfhI/AAAAAAAAEIM/HAWRFVzSyLY/s1152/IMG_0612.JPG

^^ To clarify, I can only put the spring end into the "-" hole to align the flat edges of the center hole. I'm worried that the dark grey washer is being rounded off.

Hmm. Is the other end of the spring properly seated in the derailer body on the other side? I'm wondering if the spring has to be tensioned 180 degrees to the flats of the bolt.

-Kurt

I'm kinda surpised to see that these older straight parallelogram Simplex RDs are also tensioned at the top pivot with a spring. Maybe because I never owned one of these model Simplex's. I always thought that they are only tensioned on the bottom pivot to control the jocky wheel cage movements (like the Campy NR RD). If this does indeed require upper pivot tension, It most likely needs to be pre-tensioned (twisted) before bolting on to a dropout. That might be why things don't seem to be lining up on you.

Chombi

Hmm. Is the other end of the spring properly seated in the derailer body on the other side? I'm wondering if the spring has to be tensioned 180 degrees to the flats of the bolt.

-Kurt

Pretty much correct. Just looked at my SLJ and the spring end is 180 degrees opposite the position in suncake's photo. Use an allen wrench to put tension on the spring and install the plate. Mine uses the minus hole. That puts the tab on the correct side of the derailleur and provides the needed tension.

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x115/lat7575/simplex001.jpg

Pretty much correct. Just looked at my SLJ and the spring end is 180 degrees opposite the position in suncake's photo. Use an allen wrench to put tension on the spring and install the washer. Mine uses the minus hole. That puts the tab on the correct side of the derailleur and provides the needed tension.

Good to know that the nut also provides the tension - easy enough to do. Too bad they didn't work in a fixing screw to keep the plate from flying though.

-Kurt

What washer? There's no washer. Be careful about using a wrench on the pivot bolt. That's the end of it you see in the picture above. If you apply too much torque, it will spin in the plate with the tab and you'll have no spring tension. It doesn't take much. I learned that the hard way. There's really no need to use a wrench at all. Just tighten the bolt from the backside. The pivot bolt won't turn because the tab stops it.

The pivot bolt is actually a nut in this application because the threads are female.

What washer? There's no washer. Be careful about using a wrench on the pivot bolt. That's the end of it you see in the picture above. If you apply too much torque, it will spin in the plate with the tab and you'll have no spring tension. It doesn't take much. I learned that the hard way. There's really no need to use a wrench at all. Just tighten the bolt from the backside. The pivot bolt won't turn because the tab stops it.

The pivot bolt is actually a nut in this application because the threads are female.

You are correct, that is not a washer. Pardon me for using incorrect terminology. I have corrected the original post. However in this case, as the plate is not installed on the pivot bolt, the OP will need to use an allen wrench in order to pretension the spring to install the plate on the pivot bolt in the correct position. To further clarify for the OP, note there are flats on the pivot bolt and in the mounting hole of the plate so that it won't just spin. You may have to tap or press the plate onto the pivot bolt. Once that is done, it can be mounted, making sure the tab is on the front side of the hanger, and the retaining bolt can be installed. If done correctly the derailleur will swing toward the back of the bike. The picture I shared earlier shows the correct orientation of the plate.

You are correct, that is not a washer. Pardon me for using incorrect terminology. I have corrected the original post. However in this case, as the plate in not installed on the pivot bolt, you will need to use an allen wrench in order to pretension the spring to install the plate on the pivot bolt in the correct position. Note there are flats on the pivot bolt and in the mounting hole of the plate so that it won't just spin. You may have to tap or press the plate on the pivot bolt. Once that is done, it can be mounted, making sure the tab is on the front side of the hanger, and the retaining bolt can be installed. If done correctly the derailleur will swing toward the back of the bike. The picture I shared earlier shows the correct orientation of the plate.
I think you might call it a "Keyed spring plate"....?

Chombi

I'm trying to rotate the spring end clockwise 180 degrees using an allen key on the other side, then place the tabbed-washer-whatever (A) in to place (as shown in CV-6's pic above).

The problem is, once I get to about the 45 degrees, the keyed-spring-plate-whatever (B) seems to have a rounded out hole, so when I rotate the hanger bold (C), the spring doesn't turn with. I don't think this was originally the case--I think the center hole in B has been rounded off!
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-FjSIGOBbXzo/T8l398485yI/AAAAAAAAEIc/2zky0yn_coI/s1024/IMG_0615.JPG

Suncake, if you can't get it to work, send it back. Remind me how much I charged you for the lot via PM so I can refund you on it.

Seems to explain why some Simplex RD's loose their springiness - that one part getting rounded out.

-Kurt

So to confirm: Part B should have a flattened cutout a la Part A?

I haven't given up hope yet. If I can somehow rotate the spring 180 degrees and get Part A pressed onto Part C (with B sandwiched in the middle), it shouldn't matter whether B is rounded out or not, no?

How to do that though...time to get creative.

So to confirm: Part B should have a flattened cutout a la Part A?

I haven't given up hope yet. If I can somehow rotate the spring 180 degrees and get Part A pressed onto Part C (with B sandwiched in the middle), it shouldn't matter whether B is rounded out or not, no?

How to do that though...time to get creative.

I am not sure. Let me look at one of mine tomorrow AM and get back to you.

^^Much appreciated, CV-6. :)

Here's an exploded parts diagram from Robert Broderick's velo-pages.com Gallery (see the bottom part, the SLJ):

http://www.velo-pages.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=43946&g2_serialNumber=2

It doesn't seem likely to me that the "cup" piece B would be keyed; looks like it's just there to contain the wound spring.

My bet is that to install and tension the spring, you put your part A (3563L) into place on the back side of the derailer, put those on the edge of a table top or some other flat surface to hold them together, install the cup B (3561) and the spring (3885) from the outer side (through the holes in parts A + B), wind the spring up from the exterior and hold its free end into the slot in the edge of the casting (more easily seen in the bottom section of the exploded view) using a flat, thin implement, and then install the pivot bolt, keying it into part A. But I've never taken one apart yet.

My bet is that to install and tension the spring, you put your part A (3563L) into place on the back side of the derailer, put those on the edge of a table top or some other flat surface to hold them together, install the cup B (3561) and the spring (3885) from the outer side (through the holes in parts A + B), wind the spring up from the exterior and hold its free end into the slot in the edge of the casting (more easily seen in the bottom section of the exploded view) using a flat, thin implement, and then install the pivot bolt, keying it into part A. But I've never taken one apart yet.

I'm not sure of that. From the explanation in this thread (and simply from looking at the RD in pieces for the first time), 3876 (the top bolt) engages the flats on 3561, which is tied to spring 3885. In short, by turning #3876, one tensions or de-tensions 3885 by spinning 3561. 3563L is simply slid onto 3876 when the spring is at the right position.



I am not sure. Let me look at one of mine tomorrow AM and get back to you.

Keep us informed, Lynn. If you find yourself short on time, I'll pull apart the gold 5000 on my PY10.



How to do that though...time to get creative.

Don't get creative; you're probably right about 3561 - and if that is the case, I'd like to buy the RD back. It'll give you an opportunity to put your funds towards an intact one.

In the meantime, I'll probably be able to roustle up a junker SLJ down here for that part and fix it.

-Kurt

^^ To clarify, I can only put the spring end into the "-" hole to align the flat edges of the center hole. I'm worried that the dark grey washer is being rounded off.

Is it possible that you have to "tension" the spring (by rotating it, via allen key on the other side of the mounting bolt) in order to get it into the other hole?

Is it possible that you have to "tension" the spring (by rotating it, via allen key on the other side of the mounting bolt) in order to get it into the other hole?

I believe that's the general idea, but the flats on the mounting bolt (nut) apparently spin part #3561, which tensions the spring.

-Kurt

Kurt has it figured out. It's a weakness in the design of these derailers

I had to take back an SX610 that I sold when this happened to it, even though I knew that it wasn't in that condition when I shipped it. I ended up converting it to use with a claw by changing the pivot bolt and eliminating #3563L. It's on my Jeunet now.

http://inlinethumb04.webshots.com/48067/2798695160068014369S600x600Q85.jpg (http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2798695160068014369XTwEKz)

Beautiful pic ^

Grand Bois - do you know if the SX610 and SX410 use the same sleeve as on the SLJ's? If so, I might be able to send the OP a replacement.

-Kurt

I have an SX610 in my hand right now and I can say for certain that the SX610 part won't work due to the angle of the dangle of the drop parallelogram design.

When I had the same problem, I contemplated silver soldering the parts. I never got around to trying it.

By "sleeve", you don't mean #3561 do you? That's what I would call a sleeve and it has nothing to do with the problem.

I have an SX610 in my hand right now and I can say for certain that the SX610 part won't work due to the angle of the dangle of the drop parallelogram design.

Figured as much - that leaves the SX410.

-Kurt

Work has called, so I am out of this for now. Hopefully Kurt can follow up on his SLJ.

On another note...after seeing the exploded drawing, I am thinking I had the procedure all wrong.

Work has called, so I am out of this for now. Hopefully Kurt can follow up on his SLJ.

On another note...after seeing the exploded drawing, I am thinking I had the procedure all wrong.

Suncake was right all along. Pictures and video pending.

-Kurt

The derailer. Note 3563L's position while the RD is under tension from the chain.

http://www.kurtkaminer.com/simplex_slj_rd_1.jpg

Careful persuasion removes 3563L from the top nut. It is imperative for safety (and to keep 3563L from flying into your face) to turn 3876 clockwise so that 3563L's tab is not resting against the derailer body. This is assuming an RD that is working correctly, unlike Suncake's SLJ:

http://www.kurtkaminer.com/simplex_slj_rd_2.jpg

As Suncake suspected, 3561 is supposed to have flats on either side, allowing the user to install 3563L by turning 3876 clockwise, thereby tensioning the spring.

http://www.kurtkaminer.com/simplex_slj_rd_3.jpg

If none of this makes sense, this video should make it crystal clear:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdJxmO_Cx9E

Suncake, please PM me, and I'll refund the cost of the parts plus the shipping back to me. Please keep the FD. I'd offer you a replacement 3561, but I'm not sure I can pull a spare SLJ out of nowhere :( . According to Robert's pages, it appears as if the part was common only to the LJ 1000, LJ 2000, and SLJ 5000/5001.

That said, is there a possibility that someone stuck a #3562 in place of a 3561 on Suncake's RD?

-Kurt

I don't know (without trying it) why the method I suggested wouldn't work: put the dropout side of the pivot (3563L, 3561, pivot body, together with the spring (3885), wind the spring up from the outside, hold the wound end of the spring in the slot at the edge of the pivot hole deftly with a blade, and insert the pivot bolt, engaging the keyhole in 3563L and trapping the end of the spring in the slot at the same time. Then 3561 is just a sleeve, and its keyhole isn't used.

I don't know (without trying it) why the method I suggested wouldn't work: put the dropout side of the pivot (3563L, 3561, pivot body, together with the spring (3885), wind the spring up from the outside, hold the wound end of the spring in the slot at the edge of the pivot hole deftly with a blade, and insert the pivot bolt, engaging the keyhole in 3563L and trapping the end of the spring in the slot at the same time. Then 3561 is just a sleeve, and its keyhole isn't used.

Might work, but I sold it expecting it to work right. Mind you, that spring has to be tensioned close to 180 degrees - note how far I spun 3876 before installing 3563L.

EDIT: Might have found a donor. Going to the LBS now.

-Kurt

FWIW, I have a donor clawed 410 I bought specifically for parts. I haven't taken it apart yet, but it doesn't seem to have similar parts.

I don't know (without trying it) why the method I suggested wouldn't work: put the dropout side of the pivot (3563L, 3561, pivot body, together with the spring (3885), wind the spring up from the outside, hold the wound end of the spring in the slot at the edge of the pivot hole deftly with a blade, and insert the pivot bolt, engaging the keyhole in 3563L and trapping the end of the spring in the slot at the same time. Then 3561 is just a sleeve, and its keyhole isn't used.

You're correct that in its assembled state (or what's shown at the end of Kurt's helpful video), 3561 only needs to function as a sleeve.

As far as the method you explained, I'm not 100% I completely understand it, particularly what you mean by "wind the spring from the outside." As Kurt pointed out, tensioning this to 180 degrees is quite a bit of torque (enough to, say, strip a slotted aluminum bit :) ). In theory, if one could rotate the spring 180 degrees and get the tabbed washer (3563L) in place, you'd be fine...but I think the term "deft hands" would be an understatement.

I should note that 3563L cannot be rotated to the proper position if inserted in the untensioned state b/c of interference from the raised parts of the derailer body.