Fifty Plus (50+) - Polite (but frustrating) Driver Debate

I was stopped at a light on my way home from work the other day and, as is my habit at that intersection, I stopped in the lane, far enough to the left to allow any right-turning cars enough room to easily get past me. I consider it the polite and safe thing to do, especially given that many drivers don't know how to handle a bike at the curb, and will wait for the green, behind and to your left. That gets dangerous, as when the light turns green, those same drivers will sometimes turn right, whether you are crossing the intersection at the time or not. So I take the lane to avoid being hooked, then move back over as I exit the intersection. There is a left turn lane, but no right turn lane - just enough room for a car to go to the right of a vehicle going straight.

As I'm waiting for the green, sure enough, a right-turning car pulls up. He has his window down, and asks me what I'm doing "in the middle of the street". I tell him it's so he can turn right without waiting. He points to the sidewalk, and says that's where I should be. I tell him that, no, Arizona law states that I belong in the street, as part of traffic. He say "not true", and at it became obvious it would be a "yes it does", "no it doesn't" thing, since he continued to insist I was wrong, even after I mentioned that I had carefully studied our traffic laws as they relate to bicycles. I shut up. He made his turn, and was gone.

Anyway, it was a tipping point for me. I'm finally going to do something I've thought of doing for quite while, and print out a whole bunch pocket sized cards with our statutes on them. I'll give them to clubs, and keep some in a jersey pocket to use as debate handouts. Our drivers (and LEO) need some edjumacation.

The drivers will just think you've made it all up.

Unfortunately, many drivers don't know that bicycles are allowed on the streets.

Unfortunately, many drivers don't know that bicycles are allowed on the streets.

Exactly, which is why education can help. I'm also a big fan od the "Share the Road" and "3 Feet" signs some communities put up, and Yo Spiff, I think most people believe those.

You assume he'll be able to read and understand it, and/or care.

You assume he'll be able to read and understand it, and/or care.

Well, in this particular case, he seemed to care, as he actually conversed about it, instead of just yelling something stupid on the way by. That doesn't mean he is open to being enlightened, but hey, it's something.

That guy was a dodo head!

Well, in this particular case, he seemed to care, as he actually conversed about it, instead of just yelling something stupid on the way by. That doesn't mean he is open to being enlightened, but hey, it's something.

There is a ray of hope.

Anyway, it was a tipping point for me. I'm finally going to do something I've thought of doing for quite while, and print out a whole bunch pocket sized cards with our statutes on them. I'll give them to clubs, and keep some in a jersey pocket to use as debate handouts. Our drivers (and LEO) need some edjumacation.

Trying to educate unaware drivers is a no-wn situation. There are just too many of them. IMHO it's best to smile, let it go and enjoy your ride.

AZTall, you were clearly in the right here. But, if you go ahead and print up a bunch of cards or brochures, and try to give them to such people, one of several things will happen:

-They will not accept it, and glare at you.

-They will crumble it up, or tear it up, and toss it back at you. This will be accompanied with an all-american death look. This is the same look you get if you attempt to cut the line
at Dunkin Donuts at 7:30 AM.

-The individual may be looking for a fist-fight, to score points with his bar-buddies, and attempting to hand him something might be all he needs.

Any chance he might accept it, look at you sheepishly, and say, "Golly, I'm sorry! I had no idea". ? Yes. I'd say the odds of such a thing are somewhere around .00001% probability.

Sorry, but I had a similar experience recently, so I'm just a tad cynical tonight. What I have heard a few times, when I mention MA state law stating that bikes are recognized as vehicles,
are variants of "I don't give a expletive what the law says! Bikes don't belong on the expletive street".

I think the "I don't care what the law says" is key here.

If gas gets anymore expensive, it's going to be interesting times indeed.

you cant educate a moron,,I ride year around 5 days a week in the street,,been doing it for 53 years,,I look guys like that right in the face,,and say ______ off ___ hole,,,thats the way I handle it. I got no time for morons.

It is clear that people will believe just what we want to believe. If anyone needs proof of this, just look at politics.

I've heard the "bicycles belong on the sidewalk" thing before and I had a guy insist that I should ride on the left, against traffic, so it would be easier for him to see me, or something. I told him the law said I should ride on the right and he said the law was wrong. I thanked him for his concern.

It's almost like racism or some other deeply ingrained hatred/stupidity.

I hear what you all are saying, but there is a segment of the population, however small, that is merely ignorant and willing to learn. That's the target population for educational initiatives.

Trying to educate unaware drivers is a no-wn situation. There are just too many of them. IMHO it's best to smile, let it go and enjoy your ride.
+1 I think I would say "I appreciate your concern; have a nice day" By the way... A positive about those who make wisecracks to us is, they do see us when we are riding. Those that honk, shoot the finger or make wisecracks do see us. That is better than a driver who dosen't even know we are there.

I don't mind the wisecracks, fingers, or even the horns so much. When they throw things or try to see how close they can get is when it really sucks.

The general driving public needs educating. And we've been on the road for how long now??


I'm riding in The Ride Of Silence next Wednesday night. It's the least I can do for now.

The general driving public needs educating. And we've been on the road for how long now??


I'm riding in The Ride Of Silence next Wednesday night. It's the least I can do for now.

I do my own ride of silence,,last time I tried to ride with a group in Royal Oak Michigan the leader was acting like a Nazi..I ride for fun and exercise,,I dont need that crap ..

I hear what you all are saying, but there is a segment of the population, however small, that is merely ignorant and willing to learn. That's the target population for educational initiatives.

Good point. I think that there are getting to be so many cyclists on the streets these days that drivers will have to get the message. What worries me is the irregular behavior of so many doofus cyclists, riding the wrong way, on the sidewalks, the wrong way on the sidewalks, etc. There's some educating to do there too!

Footnote: looks like we are getting a three-foot law here in Nebraska... a very good thing I think. And AZT- I do exactly what you do to let drivers make a right turn.

Was thinking of putting this in the back window of my truck. Right where other drivers will see it.
http://commutestlouis.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/bmuflgoi.jpg

I was stopped at a light on my way home from work the other day and, as is my habit at that intersection, I stopped in the lane, far enough to the left to allow any right-turning cars enough room to easily get past me. I consider it the polite and safe thing to do.

+1

You could have told the guy that if you were on the side walk; 1, you would have to go at pedestrian speed, and 2, he would never know if you were "that guy" who would pull out when he was turning right.

My employer is having a "fair" during lunch time to promote good behaviors during National Safety Month. Our bike club has a standing invite to staff an info booth either for this event or for Earth Day to promote bicycling. While we will get some interest from bicycle riders, a good part of our effort is to educate both cyclists AND motorists how to legally, safely, and courteously share the road and MUPs. When motorists deal with cyclists in a business setting peer-to-peer, it reminds them that we are real people not fringe elements of society; and it takes place in a neutral environment where reason rules over emotions.

The largest bike club in the city is sponsoring a Bike Rodeo for school kids in conjunction with the local police department this month. This helps educate their parents to avoid perpetuating the myths of where bikes should be. The kids enjoy it.

If you have the opportunity to participate in these types of event, please consider it.

I have enjoyed dialogue from several "concerned" motorists who politely have told me I should be on the sidewalks/ riding toward traffic. My favorite was when I was on a rural road riding 23+ mph and a motorcycle rider pulled alongside me and advised me I should find a "safer" road. Any alternative routes in my direction involved 10-mile detours and were worse conditions.

AZT - yes, I take the lane in intersections so cars won't pass me until I clear the intersection. At stops I position my bike so a R-turning driver can squeeze by on my right but ONLY if that will be safe for both me and the motorist.

Was thinking of putting this in the back window of my truck. Right where other drivers will see it.
http://commutestlouis.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/bmuflgoi.jpg

Hahahahaha! Love the "GET OVER IT" part.

FYI

In CA it is CVC21202(4)

I encourage you to look it up in your states Vehicle Code.

"21202. (a)Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway at a speed less than the normalspeed of traffic moving in the same direction at that time shall ride as closeas practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway except under anyof the following situations:

. . .
(4) When approaching a place where a rightturn is authorized."

the type of person who feels they have to roll down the window and scold a cyclist for riding in the street ARE NOT GOING TO LISTEN TO ANYTHING, NO MATTER HOW REASONABLE IT IS, SAID BY SOMEONE WEARING SPANDEX. sorry, they think already know more than you do.

I don't mind the wisecracks, fingers, or even the horns so much. When they throw things or try to see how close they can get is when it really sucks.
Oh God I hate horns. I tend to startle when someone uses a horn. Also, the horn's unnecessary to let me know that they are approaching. I hear them coming way before they use the horn...and I have a hearing loss.

Was thinking of putting this in the back window of my truck. Right where other drivers will see it.
http://commutestlouis.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/bmuflgoi.jpg

One day when riding to work a coworker passed me and when I got to work I remind him about the 3ft law
All I got was a dumb look and that he don't agree with that and that he had to get to work.
So I tell him about the sign that bikes may full lane, he sad thats only on the roads with that sign.

The butt clown that will yell at you to get on the sidewalk when he/she's driving will yell at you to get into the street when he/she's walking on the sidewalk.

I do my own ride of silence,,last time I tried to ride with a group in Royal Oak Michigan the leader was acting like a Nazi..I ride for fun and exercise,,I dont need that crap ..

This is one of the reasons I ride alone, 99.99% of the time. Even some of the local club members in my area, who claim to be "all about safety", routinely blow through every red light while on their organized group rides. Hardly a solid image, and hardly doing anything positive to make cyclists look better in the eyes of motorists.

One more thing: My own incident the other night was minor, with a driver yelling at me to get on the sidewalk, then tossing some expletives to show me how tough he was.
This is the first such "incident" I have personally experienced in more than two years of evening riding. So, I think that while the number of JAMs is decreasing in some areas,
they are still out there, and some seem to be more agitated than ever. Could be the price of gas, or just that the Red Sox are tanking badly, and it's still early season.

Reading these horror stories makes me glad that I ride with a GoPro facing the front and a Contour facing the rear. Won't prevent a confrontation, but upon discovering that they are being recorded, it will most likely defuse a confrontation pretty quickly.

I like to keep a snow shovel propped up against my side door, I feel it ensures that it won't snow.

I bet keeping the rules of the road (relating to bicycles) in your pocket will ensure no ever questions you again.

https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSI3YAgZMzSnK5Ob8XfGPi7ny0CRuAXP3T8EUEJV3yoNTB9gyqxWe have these signs in Florida

https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSI3YAgZMzSnK5Ob8XfGPi7ny0CRuAXP3T8EUEJV3yoNTB9gyqxWe have these signs in Florida

In some communities here as well.

We have those signs on several roads in our area too.

Trying to educate unaware drivers is a no-wn situation. There are just too many of them. IMHO it's best to smile, let it go and enjoy your ride.

That's pretty much what I think too.

If somebody with a gun confronted me I'd do my best not to make him more angry than he already was. A two ton car is pretty much the same thing.

Oh God I hate horns. I tend to startle when someone uses a horn. Also, the horn's unnecessary to let me know that they are approaching. I hear them coming way before they use the horn...and I have a hearing loss.

My wife is constantly telling me to be safe when riding. I don't worry too much because I stick to side streets. However, I do have a high level of situational awareness, I can sense when a driver is behind me. I try to anticipate what others are going to do before they do it. Most , well let's be honest, all of the problems I have had is due to my own stupidity and not people with four wheels.

These things seem to come in waves, or maybe it's the weather heating up, but in similar situation today at a different intersection, a guy who is turning right, who was just ABLE to turn right because I had left space, said something about me blocking the road. Really? The last guy was merely ignorant. This guy was a jerk.

Never argue with idiots. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

I've heard the "bicycles belong on the sidewalk" thing before and I had a guy insist that I should ride on the left, against traffic, so it would be easier for him to see me, or something. I told him the law said I should ride on the right and he said the law was wrong. I thanked him for his concern.

It's almost like racism or some other deeply ingrained hatred/stupidity.

Well said!! I agree that this is the crux of the attitude. So many people just do not care what the law is, they want 'order' in society to be according to their own ideas of right and wrong. So many people are against laws that enforce order, until....until they themselves are disordered by someone. then the tides turn, you know, which side of the bread is buttered.

Anyway, it was a tipping point for me. I'm finally going to do something I've thought of doing for quite while, and print out a whole bunch pocket sized cards with our statutes on them. I'll give them to clubs, and keep some in a jersey pocket to use as debate handouts. Our drivers (and LEO) need some edjumacation.

That's a good idea. Well done!

And I thought Az was a lot more biker friendly.......

I was out in Phoenix last week and drove up to Legends Trail Golf Course via N Pima Road. It was a Thursday a little before noon and there were a number of cyclists going up and down N Pima above Pinnacle Peak Road. I suppose there are a lot of residences out that way and that area is conducive to riding?

(Enjoyed the course as welll)

The problem is that many people, both drivers and people on bicycles, see bicycles as toys, and that there are no laws or regulations for their use.

And I thought Az was a lot more biker friendly.......

I was out in Phoenix last week and drove up to Legends Trail Golf Course via N Pima Road. It was a Thursday a little before noon and there were a number of cyclists going up and down N Pima above Pinnacle Peak Road. I suppose there are a lot of residences out that way and that area is conducive to riding?

(Enjoyed the course as welll)

Pima is one of the major North-South cycling routes, and Legends Trail is a popular route from Pima to Stagecoach Pass Road and up into Cave Creek/Carefree. That area is hugely popular because there are bike lanes, and some hills to climb.

Had my own incident yesterday. In a group ride with the local club, I happened to be out in front while we approached and crossed a bridge…you know, where the road bed narrows and the shoulder disappears. I wasn't taking the lane at the time, more like I was very close to the white line. Guy in a car buzzes me very closely (I later found out that the same was done to the 2 riders behind me, one of whom was to the right of the white line), and I followed with an extremely aggressive gesture, that being I slowly shook my head from side to side in disgust. The guy in the car slows down and says something to the effect of, how dare I shake my head after I was in his way on his road.


When I think of what happened next, I alternately laugh and then ponder with concern. For a moment anyway, I had my hand resting on his car while we both traveled on, having a shouting match. I came very close to the four-letter words and some choice hand gestures, but I restrained myself, being a member of our club on an organized ride.


How I may proceed in the future: on a bridge with no shoulder and no way out, I may choose to take the lane. I get honked at frequently, and it doesn't bother me. If a driver wants to yell at me, I hope to just say - you're wrong, but have a great day. If someone buzzes me too closely, i.e. threatening my life, I'll take the license plate # of the car. Pen and paper are going to be with me on future rides.

It is clear that people will believe just what we want to believe. If anyone needs proof of this, just look at politics.

+1.