Professional Cycling For the Fans - Pro riders return to metal frames?

I was just listening to an old (two episodes ago, I think) Rouleur podcast, and they very quickly touched on the the likelihood of a pro riding on a steel or alu frame sometime in the future.

It got me thinking about the UCI's minimum weight restrictions etc, and about the merits (if there are any) for those at the top of the sport to consider using anything other than carbon. I remember Boonen riding a re-badged Pegoretti, and Gilbert on an alu Canyon, but are there other examples? I recently saw a custom stainless frame – that was huge, the rider must be almost 6'6" – and the owner claimed the weight on it was around 7.5kg. Given that a) most pros are not that tall, so the frames would be smaller, b) I'm sure he coulda shaved off some more grams without too much effort if weight was the only issue and c) I'm not sure if stainless steel tubes are any heavier but there might be lighter options out there, the UCI min of 6.8kg would have been easily achievable.

Does anyone know anything more about this? Or some opinions?

Don't know, don't care. ;)

Any frame used by a pro is going to be as good as any other frame option. The odds that a rider today would genuinely win a race because of the bike, bike frame, or frame material is close to zero.

The needs of, and mechanical support offered to, a pro is so different than my needs that I don't use them as a model for what would work best for me.

And of course, riders use bikes that are being pushed by the sponsor. As long as CF has better margins and a little more designer control than metal, I'd expect the sponsors will continue to push CF.


On an unrelated note, I don't think it'd be that difficult to get a metal bike down to 15 pounds. E.g. Jamis has a mass-produced steel bike with an advertised 17 pound weight, using Reynolds 853, Ultegra, and aluminum rims for around $3400. For a mere $9500, you can get their ultralight CF bike which weighs 13.75 pounds. (That's $1800 per pound saved.) I'm reasonably confident that if you dropped $10,000 on a metal bicycle, it'll weigh in pretty close to 13.75 pounds....

Don't know, don't care. ;) The needs of, and mechanical support offered to, a pro is so different than my needs that I don't use them as a model for what would work best for me.


It wasn't really a "I wanna know what they're using so I can follow suit" question; I was just curious. I've gone the custom frame option and been called crazy for it by some buddies, but it's cost me the same amount as a mid-level carbon bike and thanks to some hand-built wheels and a good deal on a Chorus gruppo and various components, it weighs about the same.

We get about six hours of Giro coverage a day on TV here in Italy, followed by "classic giro" stuff, so I'm probably just on overload right now!

I wish... Steel is real.

It would actually be cool if there was a legit pro-level race that required the use of period bikes with downtube shifters. Kindof a retro-throwback race like the Eroica but more PRO. It would be so cool to see all the big names riding classic frames and bars.

I wish... Steel is real.

It would actually be cool if there was a legit pro-level race that required the use of period bikes with downtube shifters. Kindof a retro-throwback race like the Eroica but more PRO. It would be so cool to see all the big names riding classic frames and bars.

Well, I think they would just be going to slow for it to be at all interesting.

Well, I think they would just be going to slow for it to be at all interesting.

You're almost certainly mistaken about that. Speeds have increased remarkably little since Merckx et al, (they've fallen back slightly in the GTs since gross EPO abuse has been more likely to be detected) and some of that will be down to factors other than CF frames.

Reynolds 953 stainless is supposed to have weight/strength properties similar to Ti and to be stiffer. I'd be surprised if one couldn't come up with a 953 bike at or close to the UCI weight limit. But it may be immaterial anyway, because I hear that under pressure from the manufacturers, the UCI is considering lowering or abandoning the weight restriction.

Why would any pro rider need to add weight, with Carbon frames they are designed to be stiff / compliant where needed, and even if the complete bike is below the minimum UCI weight, there is always the powermeter to add / replace the crank with to bring it up again, in the future no doubt there wil also be onboard cameras like in motorsport to add some more.

Also with steel you have very narrow tubes, so very little advertising space, with carbon the tubes are much wider, giving plenty of advertising space, can't see the teams / sponsors wanting to loose this either.

Why would any pro rider need to add weight....
FYI, a Tarmac SL4 frame is around 4.3 lbs. I have no doubt a well-designed aluminum, titanium, and possibly even steel can get into the same weight class. Aluminum could probably hit the same stiffness in different locations, not sure about ti or steel.



Also with steel you have very narrow tubes, so very little advertising space, with carbon the tubes are much wider, giving plenty of advertising space, can't see the teams / sponsors wanting to loose this either.
Hydroformed aluminum tubing gets fairly close to the same shapes as CF; plenty of space on those downtubes for manufacturer names.

I'm sure if there was some financial advantage to selling high-end steel or alloy over CF, some major team sponsor would consider it.

FYI, a Tarmac SL4 frame is around 4.3 lbs. I have no doubt a well-designed aluminum, titanium, and possibly even steel can get into the same weight class. Aluminum could probably hit the same stiffness in different locations, not sure about ti or steel.



The Colnago Master X-lite frame, which is steel and has been around for 30 years, weighs about 1350g or a fraction under 3lbs.

I know nothing about the Rodriguez Outlaw but it sure is light enough to be competitive. http://www.rodbikes.com/catalog/outlaw/outlaw-main.html

I know nothing about the Rodriguez Outlaw but it sure is light enough to be competitive. http://www.rodbikes.com/catalog/outlaw/outlaw-main.html

That's interesting. I saw a Trek Project One 6 series at my LBS yesterday, built up with DuraAce, and despite being under the UCI limit it was heavier than that. Just about the same price as the SRAM-equipped Rodriguez, too.

I was just listening to an old (two episodes ago, I think) Rouleur podcast, and they very quickly touched on the the likelihood of a pro riding on a steel or alu frame sometime in the future.



Wait...arent A NUMBER of riders still riding on alu frames? I dont "get" what you're wondering...

Alu frames didnt "all of a sudden" just disappear on the tour, Im sure there are many who still ride it?

Wait...arent A NUMBER of riders still riding on alu frames? I dont "get" what you're wondering...

Alu frames didnt "all of a sudden" just disappear on the tour, Im sure there are many who still ride it?

Sorry, but "a NUMBER"? If you know of a top level rider using, please share. That's what I was asking.

I didn't say anything was "all of a sudden"; I asked because I can't see any alu – certainly not any Ti or steel – these days. As I mentioned, I remember Boonen on a steel re-badged pegoretti a few years back, but I can't see any alu in this year's Giro. Was it used in a classic?

I been watching races and never seen an aluminum frame moving around in the last 4 yeas in the pro tours. Aluminum frames are nice specially for climbing but the issue is that after 5 hours i'm sure you don't want to start the stage next day at all :D

Lance armstrong used to use a Ti litespeed re badged as trek back in the day, others like the kaiser were using custom made carbon bikes repainted it aswell.

If the UCI dont change the rules about weight pretty much the development of lite bikes makes non sense at all so wouldnt surprise me if they change the rules again or something.

About the speeds? speeds are almost the same, is not that the guys are going like 15 km/h faster, if there is an improve at least in speed is just minimum, but bikes are way more comfortable than back in the day.

Just look at the record books, guys have been riding 60 km/h in the flats since like 50 years ago if not more.

[QUOTE
but bikes are way more comfortable than back in the day.

I would argue that steel bikes of the 80's were as comfortable or even more so than the carbon bikes of today.

I would argue that steel bikes of the 80's were as comfortable or even more so than the carbon bikes of today.

So would I. I recently acquired a 1984 Raleigh made of Reynolds 531. It's the most comfortable bike I own, which is saying quite a lot, because I am comfortable on all of them. Rides like a magic carpet.

I'm on my couch because it's comfortable. I'm pretty sure they're on CF because it's stiff and they win more that way, comfort be damned.

Perhaps a specialist pave bike?

I'm on my couch because it's comfortable. I'm pretty sure they're on CF because it's stiff and they win more that way, comfort be damned.

Perhaps a specialist pave bike?

It does seem the most likely place to find one.

I've noticed recently that a lot of the riders have gone back to low-profile rims on the front, probably for bike handling reasons. The manufacturers no doubt preferred the advertising space offered by deep rims, but I know what I'd rather have on my bike. It's all in flux, I suppose.

I'm on my couch because it's comfortable. I'm pretty sure they're on CF because it's stiff and they win more that way, comfort be damned.

Perhaps a specialist pave bike?

Personally I'm unconvinced that very stiff frames are any faster, in a road race, than less stiff ones. On the track, especially sprinting, sure. You need instantaneous response there. But on the road? I don't think one loses much, if any, energy on a springier frame. It seems to me it's pretty much a closed system, the energy used to flex the frame will help propel the next pedal stroke as the frame recoils.

winning races isnt about the bicycle components or the materials its made from. it all comes down to the heart and commitment of the rider.

CF frames are cheaper to mass produce, so they are always going to be the preferred option for the manufacturers. And the point of racing is to advertise stuff they want to sell, so...

Although there have been guys racing alu last few years. I don't think anyone this year though.

CF frames are cheaper to mass produce, so they are always going to be the preferred option for the manufacturers. And the point of racing is to advertise stuff they want to sell, so...

Although there have been guys racing alu last few years. I don't think anyone this year though.

Bike company sponsorship to pro teams has become much bigger and their technical support to the teams is much more important than back in the days where a rider could get away with riding a custom bike re-painted to match team graphics. I am pretty sure that the bike sponsors these days would have a fit if their sponsored riders were not actually on thier bikes.
The economics are such that the profit margin on high end CF bikes is so much higer than for steel bikes which require tremendous amounts of craftmanship labor to produce. I cannot think of a single high-end steel bike company with enough sales these days to justify sponsoring a full-pro team on high-end steel bikes in order to gain further market exposure for thier bikes. It would be hurting thier own financial best intrest for the big companies to suggest that steel is still a competitive material for frames.

winning races isnt about the bicycle components or the materials its made from. it all comes down to the heart and commitment of the rider.Yes. Right. In high school, maybe. Pro racing is a game of millimeters, grams, single digit watts of wind resistance, etc. Layered on top of the heart and commitment to get, stay, and succeed there. Don't dismiss either part of it.

Yes. Right. In high school, maybe. Pro racing is a game of millimeters, grams, single digit watts of wind resistance, etc. Layered on top of the heart and commitment to get, stay, and succeed there. Don't dismiss either part of it.
then hasnt carbon fiber proven itself technically advanced enough to be a material that can improve performance and efficiency, even just a little bit, that it should be the hands down, only option for a racing bike frame? so whats the debate about??

Not everything on a forum has to be a black and white debate! This is getting a little off topic now. I was just curious if anyone was able to point to examples of pros riding metal frames. All things being equal, which with the UCI limit at 6.9kg I'm sure they could be, I'm not sure a carbon frame would be any quicker over the passo stelvio than a modern steel one. Not discounting the merits of either, mind you; I can see the benefits in both materials. That said, the main benefit does seem to be to the producer, that is, carbon is cheaper and easier to produce and it offers more advertising space.

Sorry, but "a NUMBER"? If you know of a top level rider using, please share. That's what I was asking.

Please share where every single rider of every bike on tour is riding solely CF/TI bikes only? You said 'you havent seen any", that doesnt mean they dont exist.


I didn't say anything was "all of a sudden"; I asked because I can't see any alu – certainly not any Ti or steel – these days. As I mentioned, I remember Boonen on a steel re-badged pegoretti a few years back, but I can't see any alu in this year's Giro. Was it used in a classic?

Again, please share where ever single rider rides bikes solely made from CF/TI and notthing else alu? if you have that info, please share it with all of us. I would gather that there are "a number" of riders/teams on tour right this second, who are still riding steel/alu framed bikes? Until YOU show me otherwise, no one knows right?

Please share where every single rider of every bike on tour is riding something other than alu? You said 'you havent seen any", that doesnt mean they dont exist.



Again, please share where ever single rider on tour rides a bike made from every material EXCEPT alu? if you have that info, please share it with all of us. I would gather that there are "a number" of riders/teams on tour right this second, who are still riding steel/alu framed bikes? Until YOU show me otherwise, no one knows right?

no...they're all on carbon. It's not hard to see, just watch the race. Last year I think some guys were on alu Canyons, but that's unusual. Few more years back Spesh had some guys on aluminum bikes too, because of fit issues. These cases are unusual enough that it always gets talked about.

CF frames are cheaper to mass produce, so they are always going to be the preferred option for the manufacturers. And the point of racing is to advertise stuff they want to sell, so...

Although there have been guys racing alu last few years. I don't think anyone this year though.

Tell Cannondale that, as they built their entire reputation company around alu framed bikes. Alu was all the rage in the 80s, and most bikes back then were either lugged steel, or alu. Like i said earlier, I would be willing to bet that there's some folks on tour still riding alu frames. Just because CF/TI are "all the rage" and "in" right now, doesn't make them better than other bikes, just my opinion. Not the bike, it's the rider.....

no...they're all on carbon. It's not hard to see, just watch the race. Last year I think some guys were on alu Canyons, but that's unusual. Few more years back Spesh had some guys on aluminum bikes too, because of fit issues. These cases are unusual enough that it always gets talked about.

AGAIN..........please share the info that EVERY SINGLE RIDER ON TOUR IN EVERY RACE ONLY RIDES CF and not other materials as you claim, do you have that info by chance? if not, you dont know yourself, so you cant say thats the only type of material they ride, if YOu yourself aren't 100% sure...no statistics or proof otherwise has been posted.

You've also just admitted to & proved what I said, that not every rider rides a CF/TI bike, so you're wrong.

AGAIN..........please share the info that EVERY SINGLE RIDER ON TOUR IN EVERY RACE ONLY RIDES CF and not other materials as you claim, do you have that info by chance? if not, you dont know yourself, so you cant say thats the only type of material they ride, if YOu yourself aren't 100% sure...no statistics or proof otherwise has been posted.

You've also just admitted to & proved what I said, that not every rider rides a CF/TI bike, so you're wrong.

That's like asking for proof the grass is green. Watch a race. Look at the bikes.

It's not a secret.

Tell Cannondale that, as they built their entire reputation company around alu framed bikes. Alu was all the rage in the 80s, and most bikes back then were either lugged steel, or alu. Like i said earlier, I would be willing to bet that there's some folks on tour still riding alu frames. Just because CF/TI are "all the rage" and "in" right now, doesn't make them better than other bikes, just my opinion. Not the bike, it's the rider.....

And...what is Liquigas riding? Oh right, Cannondale carbon bikes. What is ever pro rider sponsored by Cannondale riding? Carbon.

Man, that big font is cool.

Former world cyclocross champion Zydek Stybar road an aluminum specialized cruX cyclocross frame for the professional cyclocross world cup races this year once he switched over to the quick-stem team. Specialized has phased out offering carbon CX bikes and he was contractually obligated to ride a specialized.

That's like asking for proof the grass is green. Watch a race. Look at the bikes.

It's not a secret.

You just admitted that a team "from last year rode aluminum"which proves my point that not every single rider/team use only cf/ti bikes.....

I dont need to watch races to know that, it's pretty simple, show me the proof

And...what is Liquigas riding? Oh right, Cannondale carbon bikes. What is ever pro rider sponsored by Cannondale riding? Carbon.

EXCEPT for the team() from last year that you cited.
YOU must be hard of hearing.....as Ive asked 3 times now(and probably still wont get the right answer) from you to show me FACTUAL PROOF that EVERY SINGLE RIDER AND/OR TEAM only rides CF/TI in every race, as you claim? DO YOU HAVE THAT INFO OR NOT?(that'd be a no, b/c if you did, you'd have already posted it).


(BTW, love how you cite 1 team...who cares about 1 team?)

Former world cyclocross champion Zydek Stybar road an aluminum specialized cruX cyclocross frame for the professional cyclocross world cup races this year once he switched over to the quick-stem team. Specialized has phased out offering carbon CX bikes and he was contractually obligated to ride a specialized.


This proves that(wait for it...............) they dont "all ride cf/ti" like people here have said.

hey I heard somewhere that every rider on the tour rides carbon fiber bicycles only. Is that true??:p

This proves that(wait for it...............) they dont "all ride cf/ti" like people here have said.


You do all see the futility of arguing with somebody who thinks that what one CX rider rides has anything to do with what UCI Pro road riders use, doncha?

Please share where every single rider of every bike on tour is riding something other than alu? You said 'you havent seen any", that doesnt mean they dont exist.



Again, please share where ever single rider on tour rides a bike made from every material EXCEPT alu? if you have that info, please share it with all of us. I would gather that there are "a number" of riders/teams on tour right this second, who are still riding steel/alu framed bikes? Until YOU show me otherwise, no one knows right?

Why do you have to be a dick about it? Your first post wasn't relevant to the discussion. I didn't ask for every rider. It was a light-hearted question; if it bothers you, why bother posting? I don't get that compulsion to rag on some post that annoys you.

I didn't say there were a number of riders on steel/alu either. I mentioned to recent-enough examples, and was wondering if there were more. Again, if it bothers you, go post somewhere else.

You just admitted that a team "from last year rode aluminum"which proves my point that not every single rider/team use only cf/ti bikes.....

I dont need to watch races to know that, it's pretty simple, show me the proof



Dooode. You need to sit down, smoke a doobie, crank up the Night Ranger, pop in a DVD of Lance Armstrong's greatest hits.
and STFU.
Seriouzz Roadie Beeswax= Hilarious FAIL.
LULZ for Centuries, yo!

Please share where every single rider of every bike on tour is riding something other than alu? You said 'you havent seen any", that doesnt mean they dont exist.



Again, please share where ever single rider on tour rides a bike made from every material EXCEPT alu? if you have that info, please share it with all of us. I would gather that there are "a number" of riders/teams on tour right this second, who are still riding steel/alu framed bikes? Until YOU show me otherwise, no one knows right?

Wow, you do realize that you were the one who originally authoritatively stated, without qualification, that "a number" of racers are still riding on aluminum bikes, right? Which, incidentally, is exactly the innocently curious question that the OP posted. Except, when he reasonably followed up with "ok, who?", you responded by freaking out that it was his burden to demonstrate that every racer is riding on carbon. And then you double down on that ridiculous response a couple posts later. The OP never stated that "Every racer is on carbon, prove me wrong!" He simply wondered who, if anyone, is still racing on metal. Reading comprehension is not your strong suit, is it?

Here's a tip: when you want to make the claim that "a number" of racers are on metal bikes, you should be prepared to back up that assertion by showing who is, especially when that was the original question. Because, I think the point of the OP's original question is that it would be kind of cool to know, if it's true.

Now look at GrayJay. He actually gave a reasonable response by providing an example of a pro racer on an aluminum bike (albeit cx, but still). But rather than learn how a thoughtful person would reasonably respond to a seemingly direct and easy question, you simply quoted him and said, SEE!? I was right!

:wtf:

Dooode. You need to sit down, smoke a doobie, crank up the Night Ranger, pop in a DVD of Lance Armstrong's greatest hits.
and STFU.
Seriouzz Roadie Beeswax= Hilarious FAIL.
LULZ for Centuries, yo!

Now you know why he is on my IGNORE list. If I could just get the replies that copy in his posts to ignore those sections he wrote I'd be golden. Wait ... is that a metal used by all/none/some of the pro tour rid.....

EXCEPT for the team() from last year that you cited.
YOU must be hard of hearing.....as Ive asked 3 times now(and probably still wont get the right answer) from you to show me FACTUAL PROOF that EVERY SINGLE RIDER AND/OR TEAM only rides CF/TI in every race, as you claim? DO YOU HAVE THAT INFO OR NOT?(that'd be a no, b/c if you did, you'd have already posted it).

(BTW, love how you cite 1 team...who cares about 1 team?)


I wish I had your enthusiasm for things that really have no affect on my life.

Yeah, and wood / metal rackets will make a comeback on the pro tennis tour.

I wish I had your enthusiasm for things that really have no affect on my life.
And don't forget the people skills!

Yeah, and wood / metal rackets will make a comeback on the pro tennis tour.

Remember when Borg finally attempted a come back? I think he was swinging the wood. That didn't go so well, but it may have been the years selling ladies knickers that through his game off.

That's like asking for proof the grass is green. Watch a race. Look at the bikes.

It's not a secret.

Plus, you can look at the Pro bikes in Velonews, Bike Radar, Cycling News, etc. All the bikes you see are CF.

And if there were steel bikes being ridden at the highest level, they certainly would be featured in magazine articles, and websites, and they're not.

A few years ago Magnus Backsted rode a metal bike (Ti I believe, but it might have been Al) because they didn't want to incur the cost of making a mold for a CF bike to fit him. That got attention precisely because everyone else was riding CF bikes.

There may be the odd example out there, but the vast majority are on CF bikes these days.

Why do you have to be a dick about it? Your first post wasn't relevant to the discussion. I didn't ask for every rider. It was a light-hearted question; if it bothers you, why bother posting? I don't get that compulsion to rag on some post that annoys you.


Wasnt trying to be a dick, someone claimed a fact, then i asked for said proof, and they got all pissy and then reaffirmed the fact. I asked a second(and 3rd) time for them to show me where every single rider on every team on tour olny rode 2 kinds of bikes, and they couldnt. OP was asking...I said I didnt think they were only racing on 2 frames...then it went crazy.


I didn't say there were a number of riders on steel/alu either. I mentioned to recent-enough examples, and was wondering if there were more. Again, if it bothers you, go post somewhere else.


Please show me where i said you did say that? I was responding to those who said that there were only 2 kinds of bikes currently being ridden on the tour as we speak: TI/CF, and thats not the case, as someone cited a team from last year that rode Alu......I will stick to my assumption that not every single rider/team rides only CF/TI on the tour, and until someone can post proof otherwise, i will stick that that assumption. Not a "dickish" thing, not an any "thing", just said i didnt think that folks rode those frames specifically, no one has proven otherwise, no big deal really.

Plus, you can look at the Pro bikes in Velonews, Bike Radar, Cycling News, etc. All the bikes you see are CF.

And if there were steel bikes being ridden at the highest level, they certainly would be featured in magazine articles, and websites, and they're not.

A few years ago Magnus Backsted rode a metal bike (Ti I believe, but it might have been Al) because they didn't want to incur the cost of making a mold for a CF bike to fit him. That got attention precisely because everyone else was riding CF bikes.

There may be the odd example out there, but the vast majority are on CF bikes these days.

That was my point, that not every bike ridden on tour is strictly made from CF or TI, and you've proven it AGAIN.

My point was that not every single rider rode only CF/TI frames, and folks got all pissy and claimed they did. When I asked for said proof, they still claimed they only rode those 2 frames, then, one guy cited a team from last year that rode Aluminum(which proved my point, and answered the question). I said that i didnt think every team rode those 2 frame materials only, and thats when the discussion went elsewhere.

Wow, you do realize that you were the one who originally authoritatively stated, without qualification, that "a number" of racers are still riding on aluminum bikes, right? Which, incidentally, is exactly the innocently curious question that the OP posted. Except, when he reasonably followed up with "ok, who?", you responded by freaking out that it was his burden to demonstrate that every racer is riding on carbon. And then you double down on that ridiculous response a couple posts later. The OP never stated that "Every racer is on carbon, prove me wrong!" He simply wondered who, if anyone, is still racing on metal. Reading comprehension is not your strong suit, is it?


I did? hmm, I thought I said 'I bet a number of riders" which said(to me) that Im guessing here, and feel free to prove me wrong if they didn't solely ride those 2 mateirals only, which no one did(after asking 3 times). But thank you for getting involved in the discussion Mr.Helper


Here's a tip: when you want to make the claim that "a number" of racers are on metal bikes, you should be prepared to back up that assertion by showing who is, especially when that was the original question. Because, I think the point of the OP's original question is that it would be kind of cool to know, if it's true.


I didnt claim anything, I said I bet/assumed they didnt(as i found it hard to believe that EVERY BIKE on tour was made from and rode CF/TI and I was proven right, that they weren't, & alu is still being used) , here's a "tip" for you: dont eat yellow snow


Now look at GrayJay. He actually gave a reasonable response by providing an example of a pro racer on an aluminum bike (albeit cx, but still). But rather than learn how a thoughtful person would reasonably respond to a seemingly direct and easy question, you simply quoted him and said, SEE!? I was right!


I was right, not every rider/team rode a CF/TI frame only on tour, and that person proved my opinion/bet/whatever, correctly. I therefore didnt need to post any correction, as the other party did so.

Reading comprehension must be hard for you. Must be all the "doobies".