Long Distance Competition/Ultracycling, Randonneuring and Endurance Cycling - full suspension MTB for long distance, ideas for improvement

ok guys.
let me intro myself and my bike.
age: 35
height: 173cm
weight:60-63kg
cruising cadence: 70-84
comfortable cadence 85-95
sprinting cadence: 96-110 (I can only last around 30-45s, can only do this every
I have a medical issue of degenerative disc on the lower back. so road bikes are pretty much ruled out due to the agressive body contortions, my back would giveup first before anything else.

I ride with 2 different clubs. trail and long distance.
I havent taken any bus/train/taxi/cars for almost 9 months, except to airports and i ride to my meetings. (i'm a photographer and i work from home.)

I have a current FS MTB that is setup for urban/long distance, i use this bike for XC/AM and abit of downhill on the XC sections.

titus FTM
DT XMC 150 fork
DT XR carbon rear shock.
Mavic 2012 crossmax SLR
XTR 9 speed drivetrain 24/32/44, 11/32
XTR m988 trail brakes with goodridge cables.
XTR 980 pedals
ritchey superlogic seatpost/C260 stem 70mm
fizik antares 00 saddle.
easton EC90 bar
many other weight weenie parts, ti screws, skewers, etc etc
and the oddpart, continental sports contact 1.3 @ 80psi
I mount up the schwable rocket ron 2.1 @ 35psi when i'm going trail riding with my pals.
total is around 10.3kg @ barebones, 10.6kg with GPS, blinkers front and rear, and bottle cage.
i wrapped my handle bar with tennis grips so that i can rest my elbows on it if i need to go into "aerodynamic mode"
my fork is usually in 100mm semi lockdown and my rear shock is in semi lockdown, i unlock both when i'm trail riding

i cant decide if i should go the XTR 10 speed given that only the dual cranks have the 44T options.

most of the rides are usually with the long distance club dudes @ 100-200km who all are on roadies, they would do around 35km/h average and i would draft closely behind them most of the time.

I'm in the midst of finding a better bib shorts(created another thread for that), finding a better energy drink solution other than plain water, and stocking up chocolates as energy bars.



i usually carry a camelbak. with 3L bladder,
standard stuff inside are.
parktool innertube patch
crank brothers 19 tool kit.
KMC quicklink
6 big handyplast
3 smallplast
10 pills of anarex ( muscle relaxant ) for my back
10 pills of chlorhpeniramine ( running nose pills )
10 pills of celebrex ( extremely strong pain killers) for my back
finish line wet ceramic chain lube 120ml
topeak turbo morph pump
chocolates around 250-750g worth

i usually cycle in the city ( usually alone ), i dont train on turbo trainers, but I sprint from traffic light to traffic light.



ok. now for the for the question. I got another group of riders that is asking me to join them for a 450 + 450km ride over 48 hours.
any tips/ideas to increase my endurance?

ok guys and gals.

...

my fork is usually in 100mm semi lockdown and my rear shock is in semi lockdown, ...

ok. now for the for the question. I got another group of riders that is asking me to join them for a 450 + 450km ride over 48 hours.
any tips/ideas to increase my endurance?
Although I am a guy, you forgot the gals.

The following are my reactions to your ultimate question about increasing your endurance:

"semi lockdown" -- what does that mean? Perhaps that you're only semi-losing energy to the suspension system that would be better put to the road.

Slow down a little bit.

400 - 450 kms in 48 hours. I have done several back-to-back 200k rides; I am NOT a fast rando; from start of the first to finish of the second would be less than 36 hours. And that includes a good night's sleep, etc., totaling more than 12 hours off the bike in between. 450 kms in 48 hours is quite a leisurely overall pace. Plenty of time to eat real food and sleep, etc., at long stops.

Try a recumbent for distance rides.

oh woops. and gals. =p
well to be precise. they are planning for a 6am setoff, and reach the destination at around 7pm with a total distance of around 442km from meeting point -> lunch point -> motel.
and the 2nd day setoff again @ 6am for the return trip.
total distance covered is 884km avg

semi lockdown according to DT is called Climb mode.
lock=rigid
climb= drops from 150mm to 100mm. near rigid, doesnt filter out the vibrations but it moves for big bumps like potholes.
open= plush.

I must admit I love assos bibs but I hate their pricing. I have not worn any other brand in the last 10 years so I'm not sure if the other brands have caught up with assos technology. I would love to find a cheaper alternative since I go thru on average 2 pair a year.

Using a Mountain Bike for long distance is certainly acceptable. The riders that do "Race the Divide" go 2700 miles on them and around 30% of that distance is on paved roads. Lock out your forks and put on road tires. You don't need xtr, stick with a triple. 44x11 is more than enough gear for mere mortals. You can change out you Chainrings to get the gearing you want.

I've had a back injury in the past and you need to get that camel back off your back. Put a 2 bottle cage on that attaches to your saddle like the one the Triathletes use. Get that weight off your back. I crashed in 2010 on a group ride and broke several vertebrae in my lower back and destroyed a disc in the process. I was on Celebrex like you and that stuff really messed my body up, I couldn't take it. I had surgery a few months later and I have been good as new ever since.

they are planning for a 6am setoff, and reach the destination at around 7pm with a total distance of around 442km from meeting point -> lunch point -> motel.
and the 2nd day setoff again @ 6am for the return trip.
total distance covered is 884km avg

So you're going to cruise at an average 34 km/h for 13 hours on the first day and then the same the other direction the very next day? Is that a pancake flat route or how are your buddies going to maintain that sort of average speed for that long? The Tour de France average speed is about 40 km/h, but their longest stages are about half your planned daily distance.

well, it's around 35.3km/h for 12.5 hours after subtracting 30 mins lunch i guess. it's mostly flats with a small "hill" that goes up by almost 150m in height, not sure about the grade. since i'm coming from a XC/AM background, the elevation isnt an issue for me.

what i am more worried is the average speed. my average for 100-200km ride is around 30-35, althou my fastest flat ground sprint 54.2km/h without drafting. above 200km rides i am certain my avg is gonna drop.

the road trip doesnt have an escort van/bus like an event, it's just a bunch of roadies who wanna go riding long distance.
so everyone has to be self-sustained for punctures, falls, etc.

I am also wondering if i should mount of the rocket ron or maybe even get a set of racing ralph and pour some stans notube into it. the problem with stans is max 40 PSI.
i used to be using furious fred 26x2.0 until recently i kept getting my tires cut. my rear got but once ( 2mm ) and my front's first was 1mm, but the second was a 1.5cm cut. that i had to trash the tires. hence now i'm on conti tires. not as light as the furious fred @ 300g, the continental Sports Contact 1.3 is @ 450g i think. I am thinking of Panaracer T-serve or even panaracer ribmo.

or i could opt out not to join the gang.

i had no idea TDF was that short! i had the impression that they were around 500km++

if the route has a non-tarmac path, I'm sure i can catch up with them no matter how far i am left behind, the roadies are paranoid about their rims and not wanting to damage them after riding with them once at a 200km round road trip. hell some of them event resort to carrying their bike over a distance of 1km just not to cycle over some gravels. and nope, noone has tried the route yet.

XC/AM biking style is so different with road trips. sigh.

i forgot to mention, this road trip is a china roadtrip. where some portions of the roads are brutal for the roadies.
the last 200km round about trip with them was a 6 hour trip including a 30min rest. i'm the only MTB and obviously i drafted them all the way.

Would you mind posting or adding to your profile where you live? I find that kind of information interesting. If it bothers you to do so, I apologize in advance. :)

oh woops. and gals. =p
well to be precise. they are planning for a 6am setoff, and reach the destination at around 7pm with a total distance of around 442km from meeting point -> lunch point -> motel.
and the 2nd day setoff again @ 6am for the return trip.
total distance covered is 884km avg
442km/13h = 34 kpm = 21.25 mph. !!!! And that's assuming no stops. And you want to do the same distance the following day?

What kind of distances do you already do? What times do you do them in?


i forgot to mention, this road trip is a china roadtrip. where some portions of the roads are brutal for the roadies.
the last 200km round about trip with them was a 6 hour trip including a 30min rest. i'm the only MTB and obviously i drafted them all the way.

200 km in 5.5 h is 36.36 kph = 22.7 mph on bad roads pacelining with road bikes.

I'm dubious about the speeds being mentioned in this thread.

the speed is according to my garmin edge 800. that's the average speed. of course once it's on flat roads with tailwind. i hit up to 40-43km/h. but i'll be smelling their smoke by then.
the slowest I have been with them was already around 22km/h because of a hill.
the bad roads was at the last 500m+ to the designated lunch cafeteria.

that's the issue. the same distance the following day. haha.
most of the time I'm with the roadies club. we do around min:120 to max 260km every saturday (each sat is a different route) and every wednesday night (same route) we do a 80km ride in 2-2.5hrs.
these distance doesnt include the bike ride distance to the designated rendevous point. and back after the event.

i had no idea TDF was that short! i had the impression that they were around 500km++

if the route has a non-tarmac path, I'm sure i can catch up with them no matter how far i am left behind, the roadies are paranoid about their rims and not wanting to damage them after riding with them once at a 200km round road trip. hell some of them event resort to carrying their bike over a distance of 1km just not to cycle over some gravels. and nope, noone has tried the route yet.

XC/AM biking style is so different with road trips. sigh.

i forgot to mention, this road trip is a china roadtrip. where some portions of the roads are brutal for the roadies.
the last 200km round about trip with them was a 6 hour trip including a 30min rest. i'm the only MTB and obviously i drafted them all the way.

200km in 5.5 hours? Taking out the 30 minute rest that means an average of 36.4kph, or 22.6mph for the entire distance, and if some portions are "brutal for roadies" that suggests you were going faster still on the decent surfaces.

I must admit I'm finding those figures quite remarkable.

I must admit I'm finding those figures quite remarkable.

+1, either the OP needs to sign up for a ProTour team or re-calibrate their speedo

ere's a recent trip that the group did, i didnt attend because i had a photoshoot on that day.
http://www.andywee.com/pictures/chinatrip.mkv
please bear with me on the music.. LOL i didnt add that in
i'm still uploading the vid. so you can probably only start downloading shortly.
they have 2 groups. first the MTB and the roadies. the MTB and the roadies for the first 50km are mashed together. after that the group gets "auto" spilt between the roadies pulling ahead and the slow MTB behind but both groups cover the same distance.

most of the time the roadies will pull a longer distance but both groups will eventually reach at the same destination at the same appointed time.

sigh, I could upload the GPX or some other format from the garmin. not sure if the session would record the speed.
ok. uploading completed. 283mb

http://www.andywee.com/pictures/ftm.jpg
an image of me inspecting my rear brake caliper before moving out. that's the only pic i have of my bike back in jan before the DT swiss fork and shocks upgrade.

+1, either the OP needs to sign up for a ProTour team or re-calibrate their speedo

o.O if you think this is fast. there's another group here in shanghai that I'm totally freaking out from. the group is a mixed of caucasians, germans, swiss, etc. they do 120km ride every tuesday and thursday night within 3 hours. they cruise @ 38-40km/h and on flats they hit 45-50+. I dropped out within the first hour of the ride, to be precise, i dropped out 15mins into the flats trying to draft and keep up with them.

if i'm not wrong they are on their turbo trainers everyday for 1 hr.

o.O if you think this is fast. there's another group here in shanghai that I'm totally freaking out from. the group is a mixed of caucasians, germans, swiss, etc. they do 120km ride every tuesday and thursday night within 3 hours. they cruise @ 38-40km/h and on flats they hit 45-50+. I dropped out within the first hour of the ride, to be precise, i dropped out 15mins into the flats trying to draft and keep up with them.

if i'm not wrong they are on their turbo trainers everyday for 1 hr.

erm.

No offense intended, but these speeds are...incredible. As someone else already alluded, you really need to be in Italy right now. My boy Ryder could use your help.

I'm wondering if i should swap out my bontrager X lite grips (28g) for ergon GS1. (143g) it isnt my butt or legs that are screaming but rather my palms are the most painful of the lot.

haha, feel free to come to shanghai and join the ride.
so far the events of the week are
monday (no rides)
tuesday 120km/3hrs (club A.1)
wednesday 80km/2.5hrs (club A.2)
thursday 120km/3hrs (club A.1)
friday (no rides)
sat 100+++ rides. (club B)
sat&sun trail rides. they usually setoff on sat morning and be back on sun evening. (club C)

the club rides are usually organised by the bike shops themselves.

btw, I just found out that there's a group of riders from club A.1 that setoff a couple of days ago. they are cycling from shanghai to istanbul. they mention something 12,000km range
http://www.tourdafrique.com/tours/silkroute/the-route


I usually alternate my weekend rides with trails and roads.

for a moment i thought Ride The Divide(2711 miles) was long enough..

for a moment i thought Ride The Divide(2711 miles) was long enough..

You don't know much about it then, the Silkroute you linked to is a supported ride, Ride the Divide, or more correctly Tour Divide is fully unsupported, in otherwords you need it, you carry it.

erm.

No offense intended, but these speeds are...incredible. As someone else already alluded, you really need to be in Italy right now. My boy Ryder could use your help.

your boy ryder? hurh? sorry dont quite understand. do you mean your son, ryder or something else?

You don't know much about it then, the Silkroute you linked to is a supported ride, Ride the Divide, or more correctly Tour Divide is fully unsupported, in otherwords you need it, you carry it.

i'm watching the vid now. at the 21:01. =p
i should be doing my night training now thou.

yeah, i do 7 pullups, 50 x2 pushups, 10x 9s bulgarian squats, 4x 30s crunches.
1 set in the morning and 1 set in the night.

I always ride self sufficient. that means i dont ask others for help. i guess it has got to do with me being in china where noone cares.


2711 aside,
i am wondering about those tri bars, LOL, i kinda like my tennis grip tape around my bars. it only weighs 20g vs 300-400g

your boy ryder? hurh? sorry dont quite understand. do you mean your son, ryder or something else?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryder_Hesjedal

Would you mind posting or adding to your profile where you live? I find that kind of information interesting. If it bothers you to do so, I apologize in advance. :)

jsut updated so.

I haven't ridden in China but Shanghai and surrounding area rates as flat as a tack IMHO. Not sure I'd like to mix it with Chinese drivers, not yet comfortable with their driving style.

A dozen Chinese started PBP11, including some on MTBs (at least one in the 80hr group). All were either HD or DNF.

I felt sorry for the people at PBP on mountain bikes, it just looked like a hard way to get across France.

PBP11? HD? DNF? hurh?
oh, i know what's HD and DNF now. still cant figure out PBP11.

after riding with a few of the supported groups. I come to realized that I have never relied on them for anything.
my chain snapped today when i was cycling alone and I fixed my own chain with one of the 3 spare links that i always carry with me. I guess i overtorqued when i sprinted from one traffic light to another.

when i was riding with a support van a few months ago, i even fixed my own puncture twice, in the same day. i guess the only advantage of the support van/bus would be able to bailout and hope onto the vehicle. so far that hasnt happened to me. I always believed pain is temporary, giving up is forever.

PBP11 is a shorthand way of saying Paris-Brest-Paris in 2011, a 1200 Km ride halfway across France and back

200km in 5.5 hours? Taking out the 30 minute rest that means an average of 36.4kph, or 22.6mph for the entire distance, and if some portions are "brutal for roadies" that suggests you were going faster still on the decent surfaces.

I must admit I'm finding those figures quite remarkable.

That's not that surprising. I was in a group (with five tandems out front) on a 600k out of Davis Ca. and we did the first 200kms in 4hrs 45 minutes with no stops. Kind of a stupid thing to do on a 600k but fun none-the-less. I should add that the next 400kms were pretty ugly for me. ;)

first off if you have back problems get a bike that will carry your stuff and get all your crap off your back.

why always use a full suspension mtb? can't you get a second bike? there are a lot of bikes that fall between the range of full suspension mtb and road racing bike. if you absolutely can't ride without suspension i'd look into a suspension seatpost. haven't seen it done but i'd bet you can put one on to a road bike.

you seem to be using the wrong bike for the rides your doing IMHO. for mountainbiking i ride my mountainbike; but for road riding yup you guessed it a roadbike... if you can hang on those ride with the bike pictured above you'll be leading them if you get yourself a nice fast dedicated road machine.

first off if you have back problems get a bike that will carry your stuff and get all your crap off your back.

why always use a full suspension mtb? can't you get a second bike? there are a lot of bikes that fall between the range of full suspension mtb and road racing bike. if you absolutely can't ride without suspension i'd look into a suspension seatpost. haven't seen it done but i'd bet you can put one on to a road bike.

you seem to be using the wrong bike for the rides your doing IMHO. for mountainbiking i ride my mountainbike; but for road riding yup you guessed it a roadbike... if you can hang on those ride with the bike pictured above you'll be leading them if you get yourself a nice fast dedicated road machine.

+1. Once you get all the weight off your back, you may find that a road/cross bike with big tires does the job.

I do have a hardtail, a GT. for roads it so far hasnt given me problems but the moment i do trails, my back gives up. the last trail i had on GT was back in aug'11. I had to lie in bed for almost 2 days. ever since then, I got the titus FTM and 'decomission' the GT to my father in law who happens to be my neighbour. =p

that's the problem with road bikes, unless i swap the drop bar for a straight bar. I cant bend my back that long.

the GT i had was a M size, and the titus is an S size. the titus is the correct sizing for me.
the GT being M, would also mean that the reach would be further, hence bending lower that gave me alot of problems on my back on both trails and long distance.

titus being able to lockout both rear and front would allow me to 'tweak' closer to what a hardtail would be.

I have been wanting to try a roadbike with the correct sizing sometime. so far a few of my friends have told me both genre the steering is different, one is leaning to turn, the other is rotating the bar. my friend has warned me that road bikes are meant to lean, not just turning the bar, else i would result in a slide out.

then again, maybe it's just an excuse.
I have been trying to get a foldable for my wife and she has been telling me not to spend any more money on bikes.
if i tell her i want to get a roadbike, she'll flip.

so far with the camelbak and Titus combo, i havent had back problems... yet..
maybe it could be due to all the core training that I've been doing that strengthen my back muscles since aug'11.
I dont know which one stopped the back pains, Titus or core training, or prolly both.

I have already begun trying to fit stuff on the bike. because titus is the S size, the bottle cage bosses are only on the bottom of the downtube. I'm gonna try to put everything to the bike. repair patch, air pump, water, powerlink, small tools.

I'm actually happy a few days ago that i was carrying my camelbak. my XTR 9s chain snapped with a loud bang. I just fitted a KMC x10 SL today. i just found it funny that it snapped because the chain havent seen anywhere near 1000km. KMC x9 -> XTR 9s -> KMC x10 SL.

the previous KMC chain was due to change after nearly 5000km. maybe it's just a lemon.


I dont really want to be leading them, LOL
1) i'm in china.
2) i cant read chinese, hence I'm 100% reliant on my garmin edge 800.
3) i'm not the one organizing the trip so I dont know where to go
4) why lead when you can find someone to draft. =p

i tried one of those bottle cage holders that fit to the seat rails. I dont think my carbon rails are gonna like it. I just ordered a Elite VIP bottle cage mount. http://www.elite-it.com/vip/
other than,
http://www.elite-it.com/bicio/ and http://bontrager.com/model/08242
are there any other side entry bottle cages? that way i can fit the bottle and cage to my seatpost and still be easily accessible.
I have seen some putting the bottles into the backbottles of the jersey. is that really comfortable?!

200km in 5.5 hours? Taking out the 30 minute rest that means an average of 36.4kph, or 22.6mph for the entire distance, and if some portions are "brutal for roadies" that suggests you were going faster still on the decent surfaces.

I must admit I'm finding those figures quite remarkable.

The OP should forgo the touring and find a sponsor...

http://www.giant.com.cn/zh-ht/bikes/model/tcr.adv2/8800/48056/

what do you guys think of this bike? @ USD$2400. i'll probably swap out the tires with some conti GP4000s. a bike to do 150km above rides? recommended for someone like me with a degenerative disc back problem?

Looks like an okay bike. My concern would be tire clearance -- with your back issues, you'll probably want tires bigger than 700x23.

i have no experience with road bikes. can those rims do 28 or 32c?

It's not the rims, it's the frame & fork clearance which is the issue, most road frames can take a 25/26mm tire max, even if the rims can take more.

The standard road tire size till 2012 was 23mm, there is a movement towards 25mm as carbon rims take over but 23mm will be around for a long time.

talking about not carrying a backpack, I'm damn tempted not to carry one for my next weekly century trip. most of the time i'm handing out spare inner tubes or patching other biker's inner tubes, lending pumps, or even tools. maybe i should be selfish this time round and see what's it like not to carry a backpack. I hope the guys are not expecting me to me their lifesaver this coming trip.

It's not the rims, it's the frame & fork clearance which is the issue, most road frames can take a 25/26mm tire max, even if the rims can take more.

The standard road tire size till 2012 was 23mm, there is a movement towards 25mm as carbon rims take over but 23mm will be around for a long time.
i didnt know that! is that giant bike capable?
i believe this is the US version of that bike.
http://www.giant-bicycles.com/en-us/bikes/model/tcr.advanced.2/7309/44385/

talking about not carrying a backpack, I'm damn tempted not to carry one for my next weekly century trip. most of the time i'm handing out spare inner tubes or patching other biker's inner tubes, lending pumps, or even tools. maybe i should be selfish this time round and see what's it like not to carry a backpack. I hope the guys are not expecting me to me their lifesaver this coming trip.

:thumb:

Get an under-saddle bag and carry only what you might need. If you only have an MTB-sized tube on hand, the other guys will wise up quick if they have an emergency.

I did a quick Google search of that Giant bike, and it looks like people have trouble getting anything bigger than a 700x23 on the latest models. I'd pass, especially since your wife told you not to spend lots of money on bikes, and this one costs $2500!! You should be able to get something used that will suit your needs better for far less.

:thumb:

Get an under-saddle bag and carry only what you might need. If you only have an MTB-sized tube on hand, the other guys will wise up quick if they have an emergency.

I did a quick Google search of that Giant bike, and it looks like people have trouble getting anything bigger than a 700x23 on the latest models. I'd pass.

well, here in shanghai, i'm the only asian in the group that cant speak chinese. the rest of the guys are native born.

I usually carry a bontrager xxx lite 26x2.1, 98g inner tube and a maxxis 26x1.25 86g inner tube and inner tube patch kit. but because i'm always drafting behind the roadies and the ring leader is usually the last one behind. which can be potentially a long way behind, I'm helping them to patch their inner tubes. but they are the one doing the pumping to 100-140psi. LOL I aint gonna pump for them.

hell, i dont even hand pump my own tires, I have to swap my tires from the 26x1.3 to 26x2.1 almost every 2 weeks to go for the trail rides. I use a air compressor when i swap my tires. =p

how do you tell what can and cannot fit bigger than 700x23?

i think i have to look at CX specifically. they seem to be the one that bits bigger tires?

anyway, every weekend, there's a century ride here in shanghai.
around a group of 20-30 riders.
every ride there is at least 4 punctures. there hasnt been once that there wasnt any punctures. almost every 6 roadie puncture=1 mtb puncture ratio.

Yeah, a cyclocross/"cross"/CX bike would be much more appropriate -- the UCI rules allow for tires up to about 33mm, so you'll be able to fit something muuuuch more comfortable than 23 in there. A lot of "road" bike manufacturers won't list the maximum tire size because many of their customers won't be trying anything bigger than a 23 or 25, plus it gives them an "out" if a particular tire doesn't fit.

Argh.. Giant TCX bikes are not available in china...