Living Car Free - Preparing For The Inevitable; Living Car Free (or Lite) Will Be A Beacon For All

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=40qQAx0SAGE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=40qQAx0SAGE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=40qQAx0SAGE)

http://thewellrundry.blogspot.com/2008/11/depression-bicycling-or-how-to-find-two.html (http://thewellrundry.blogspot.com/2008/11/depression-bicycling-or-how-to-find-two.html)

Eventually the automobile culture way of life will become unattainable for most except for a few wealthy. When that will happen is anyone's guess (although I personally see it coming suddenly-but that is just my opinion). When it does occur, no matter the way it does, the people here on this forum will be prepared. Those of you new to this forum (and some old timers that might want some encouragement and new ideas) can read and watch for themselves.

It's not just the automobile. Our entire lifestyles are becoming unaffordable and the gap between the rich and the poor is widening drastically and fast while the middle class is sliding gradually towards poverty as well. This will not end up pretty. I hope I'll be dead by then.

The car versus bike issue is irrelevant here, it's just one of many symptoms, our problems are much bigger than that.

And, as many on this forum have pointed out, many people would give up lots of other stuff before giving up their car. People would like to pretend they have higher status than they really have, and would refuse to admit that they can no longer afford the various status
symbols.

On the other hand, most of the modern society is too brain-washed by the media and kept stupid by the govt (that serves the rich) so no one will take action against the economic inequality and we'll just slide into chaos or become a police state. The minority will be silenced and the majority will live in slums.

Read "Snow Crash". That's the future of our planet.

"Sudden" changes only happen to the unprepared. All change is gradual, especially cultural change.

The reality is that more and more people will find it unaffordable to drive their cars. The number of cars will not decline over-night, but they will be used less and less. Families with multiple cars will probably downsize to one fuel efficient vehicle. The auto-makers will offer practical, fuel-efficient cars/CUVs. A larger percentage of the population will telecommute, take the bus, carpool, or ride.

Now, if you could explain why you think the change will be "sudden"...?

A honest-to-God real live Depression, my dear-far worse than your Granddaddy's 30's one. That is what I see coming (or it came already & the illusion of having it is artificially being propped up by everything from easy credit to poorly thought out governmental policies for the last, say, 40 years or so). The critical difference from both Depressions is that the country was somewhat unified then with strong families & charitable ties directed to even strangers. Now what is there? Flaky Hipsters that cannot even tie their own shoe laces without parental intervention & F**k you to everyone else.

Yes, cars are expensive to buy and operate. That's the case whether buying and driving a new car or something old and cheap. The price of the car, the insurance, upkeep and fuel all add up. Drive less and pay less. For those who live in areas with transportation alternatives, going car-free or car-light is one of the easiest ways to trim the budget.

However, even with the switch to car-free living, the escalating cost of housing seems to be the biggest obstacle, especially for those who are starting out now.

Yes, the housing costs! It's ridiculous. We could have two or three nice cars for what we're paying monthly for an apartment and I have a "good deal". We've been looking to move and it occured to me we can't really afford two bedrooms any more in NY area in a quiet and safe neighborhood. Owning a house is pure fiction for us over here.

Believe me, the automobile will be with us for a long time, as oil becomes expensive, other forms of energy will come into play, already I'm starting to hear more about natural gas conversion kits where one can fill their car at home.

Believe me, the automobile will be with us for a long time, as oil becomes expensive, other forms of energy will come into play, already I'm starting to hear more about natural gas conversion kits where one can fill their car at home.

And you know what? I don't think it's a bad thing. Moderation is what's needed, not complete removal of car from our culture.

CNG is big in Eastern Europe. My brother has been converting his cars for a decade. Almost all gas stations carry CNG as well. But it takes up a lot of space since your gas system remains in place as backup.

Many MTA buses in NYC run on CNG, by the way.

A honest-to-God real live Depression, my dear-far worse than your Granddaddy's 30's one. That is what I see coming (or it came already & the illusion of having it is artificially being propped up by everything from easy credit to poorly thought out governmental policies for the last, say, 40 years or so). The critical difference from both Depressions is that the country was somewhat unified then with strong families & charitable ties directed to even strangers. Now what is there? Flaky Hipsters that cannot even tie their own shoe laces without parental intervention & F**k you to everyone else.


I think you get what I'm saying.
If a depression is already happening, where are these "sudden" changes?
If a depression is going to happen, where are the signs?
Worst case scenario, the currency gets devalued and we all lose about 40% of our net worth. The majority of people will survive, just like they did/do in Argentina, Greece, Spain, etc. In such a climate, the use of bikes will actually decline, seeing how it will become much more dangerous to be out and about.

Regarding society, people pull together in times of need very quickly. It's genetic. We are born to live in communities, and no man is an island. Even hipsters.

I think you get what I'm saying.
If a depression is already happening, where are these "sudden" changes?
If a depression is going to happen, where are the signs?
Worst case scenario, the currency gets devalued and we all lose about 40% of our net worth. The majority of people will survive, just like they did/do in Argentina, Greece, Spain, etc. In such a climate, the use of bikes will actually decline, seeing how it will become much more dangerous to be out and about.

Regarding society, people pull together in times of need very quickly. It's genetic. We are born to live in communities, and no man is an island. Even hipsters.

Hipsters will probably die out in the times of serious crisis. They already look like they're hardly eating. Or... hmmm... maybe they'll be the only ones to survive because they can live on noodles and cheap beer.

All this talk of carmagedon, mass die offs only bring back memories of the hyped up hysteria of years ago, when these signs were a common sight.

253105

Believe me, the automobile will be with us for a long time, as oil becomes expensive, other forms of energy will come into play, already I'm starting to hear more about natural gas conversion kits where one can fill their car at home.
Natural gas or propane conversion isn't cheap. Even though the fuel is a lot cheaper than gasoline, the cost of the conversion must also be factored in. It makes sense for someone who has a newer vehicle with a lot of life left in it, but not for someone with a 10-year-old car.

Before we see a lot of conversions to natural gas or propane, two other changes will happen.

First, expect see larger trucks and SUVs for sale at reduced prices. The large vehicles will not sell quickly. At the same time, there will be an increased demand for smaller vehicles and as a result, anyone selling a used small car will get a decent price. This happened a few years ago during a summer with higher than normal gas prices. It will happen again.

Second, it is likely more drivers will plan their trips a little more carefully. Instead of coming home from work and then going out on a grocery run, it will make more sense to make a few stops on the way home from work. Even the Mom's Taxi service of driving the kids to their activities will probably change as parents will try to arrange schedules to have fewer trips. It's not a car-free or car-light solution, but it's responsible car use for those who drive a lot. And it saves some money.

Natural gas or propane conversion isn't cheap. Even though the fuel is a lot cheaper than gasoline, the cost of the conversion must also be factored in. It makes sense for someone who has a newer vehicle with a lot of life left in it, but not for someone with a 10-year-old car.

Before we see a lot of conversions to natural gas or propane, two other changes will happen.

First, expect see larger trucks and SUVs for sale at reduced prices. The large vehicles will not sell quickly. At the same time, there will be an increased demand for smaller vehicles and as a result, anyone selling a used small car will get a decent price. This happened a few years ago during a summer with higher than normal gas prices. It will happen again.

Second, it is likely more drivers will plan their trips a little more carefully. Instead of coming home from work and then going out on a grocery run, it will make more sense to make a few stops on the way home from work. Even the Mom's Taxi service of driving the kids to their activities will probably change as parents will try to arrange schedules to have fewer trips. It's not a car-free or car-light solution, but it's responsible car use for those who drive a lot. And it saves some money.

My comment about CNG was just a suggestion on what other types of fuels or energy sources will come when oil becomes much more expensive. The sell off of large vehicles and the run on smaller vehicles will only play out in the short term, with vehicles being able to run on various types of fuels/energy sources becoming more popular and affordable. If there's a demand, and people have the money to spend, leave it to someone to find a way to get it to market.

when we have lived long enough we can remember when we have heard these same words of gloom and doom. In the 70s we had the gas crisis??? We heard the stories of the day of the big v-8 being over and the coming of the fuel efficient economy car were here. Big cars were even legislated against through CAFE. And at first the public seemed to respond as predicted, Honda, VW, Toyota, Nissan and even Ford, and GM started building small cars and a small motorcycle boom followed. Most of us remember the early Civics and even the little Accord that got close to 40 MPG. Hollywood even got into the act with movies like Mad Max and others preaching gloom and doom.

At first it seemed like the public accepted the small car replacement for their big detroit mastodons but something happened that showed resistace, the Van craze. Many of us remember the day of the cruise vans and shag wagons. People wanted more room and they wanted to pull their boats and haul their dirt bikes. Famlies got in the act with the factory family vans that seated six or seven people. The small car people didn't stay small either they started getting bigger and got bigger engines, look at todays Accord. The next craze was the Minivan, less truck more like a car but with the room of a large sedan. The compact car people jumped into the market to meet the demand and soon everyone made a Minivan and small car market became the mid sized market and sub compacts took a back seat.

The people were voting with their wallet and while large sedans were a thing of the past the next craze proved their off spring were going to be an even bigger force in the market, the SUV. from the Mid 80s to the early 2000s the SUV and light truck market represented almost 50 percent of the new car market, feel free to look it up. And even though it was almost only sold in the US the best selling new Vehicle in the world was the F series Ford Truck.

The car culture in the US a strange creature. Much like a big bush there are times it looks a bit peaked due to lack of water but after the next rain fall it gets bigger. Mass transit however is more like a house plant, take a vacation from it and when you get home it take a lot of time and effort to keep it alive. Bicycles are more like a volunteer plant, it grows were you least expect it but doesn't thrive in all areas. Lets face it, most people can't look at the contention the the world as we know it is about to end and they should start building bikes like the ones pictured to survive seriously. It is simply too depressing. I would expect to see more people jumping out of windows like in 1929.

Each of us can do what we can to make our own life easier and more affordable but it is very unlikely that people will look at the car free life style with a lot of desire or as a beacon of the furture.

as oil becomes expensive, other forms of energy will come into playOnly because oil came up to their price, not because they necessarily came down, so it's not like they will suddenly become as cheap as oil used to be.

All this talk of carmagedon, mass die offs only bring back memories of the hyped up hysteria of years ago, when these signs were a common sight.

253105The threat of nuclear war hasn't passed.

The threat of nuclear war hasn't passed.


.....but the general hysteria that was associated with it has.

as has the daft notion that significant numbers would survive and society would return to normal when we emerged from our local shelter.

At first it seemed like the public accepted the small car replacement for their big detroit mastodons but something happened that showed resistace, the Van craze. Many of us remember the day of the cruise vans and shag wagons. People wanted more room and they wanted to pull their boats and haul their dirt bikes. Famlies got in the act with the factory family vans that seated six or seven people. The small car people didn't stay small either they started getting bigger and got bigger engines, look at todays Accord. The next craze was the Minivan, less truck more like a car but with the room of a large sedan. The compact car people jumped into the market to meet the demand and soon everyone made a Minivan and small car market became the mid sized market and sub compacts took a back seat.
True, but one must also remember other factors that came into play.

The oil crisis of the early 1970s was based on politics, not crude oil supply, but it resulted in higher prices and limited supply at the pumps. Some will remember the line-ups and limits for buying fuel. A high price and uncertain availability made customers apprehensive. Small, fuel-efficient vehicles made a lot of sense. Transit made sense. Bicycles made a lot of sense.

Fast-forward a few years. The oil-producing nations were hard at work. The line-ups at the pumps were gone and the price came down from the peak of the 1970s crisis. The pain at the pumps was not too severe any longer. And more importantly, it was possible to get fuel whenever a pump was available. Stations no longer had to close temporarily because they were out of gas. With a readily available supply of cheap fuel, the incentive to go with a small, fuel-efficient car was gone. As for those who had taken up cycling to save money, some found the comfort and convenience of a car was a powerful draw.

But that was the world of the late 1980s and the 1990s. We're now undergoing another shift. We are coping with an economic slump which is affecting a lot of people. When times are tough, it only makes sense to evaluate all expenses. Right now, it seems some are trying to ride out the recession, even if it means accumulating more debt to maintain their pre-recession lifestyle. But the longer it drags on the more sense it will make to cut expenses wherever possible. For those who drive, there is the question of whether it is financially wiser to keep the existing car which isn't all that good on gas or to pay more for a vehicle which uses less fuel.

Car-free living or even car-light living is seldom the first step. More often, I see people who want to find more economical ways to continue driving. But they will drive less or quit driving entirely if the annoyances outweigh the benefits.

My guess — and this is only a guess — is that we will see a lot more minor annoyances for motorists over the next number of years. These could be issues with the price of fuel, the availability of fuel, the price of the vehicle or gridlock in cities which cannot afford to do major road network upgrades. Eventually there's a breaking point, even for the most dedicated drivers. When that happens, our motoring friends, neighbours and coworkers will seek us out to learn how we handle everyday life with little or no car use.

Take these first two YouTube videos and call me in the morning:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sMF1n9EgzU

Watch the last 10-15 min. of this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7h4VjZhe_w&list=PL763B1B990F07508A&index=2&feature=plpp_video

Read this article: http://www.consumerenergyreport.com/2010/09/13/maxwell-forecasts-peak-oil-in-seven-years/

Here's the same topic by a Stanford University Professor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTsYjRqPmNA&feature=related

There's many more but the above should open anyone's eyes regarding what's on the horizon as far as our current and future energy usage.

Except for a trip to fill my gas tank because it's recommend you keep a full tank of gas if you don't plan on driving your vehicle; I've been car free for over a week. I don't miss my car at all. I even picked up my groceries using my bicycle. I commute 120 miles a week. :thumb:

The 70's "oil emergency" was political, today's isn't.
Our dollars are worth less today than then.
Unemployment is an issue Underemployment is even worse and not really tracked by the government.
We are no longer a producing nation we are consumers...
I have hedged my bets.

Aaron :)

Yes, the housing costs! It's ridiculous. We could have two or three nice cars for what we're paying monthly for an apartment and I have a "good deal". We've been looking to move and it occured to me we can't really afford two bedrooms any more in NY area in a quiet and safe neighborhood. Owning a house is pure fiction for us over here.

Two bedrooms in Queens!

Wow. I feel for you because the rent is about what I'm paying for a mortgage. The problem is saving for a downpayment because home prices are at their lowest and may even drop further but you can't save because the rent takes almost all your income. I had to save for ten years to get the money for my downpayment and live in a studio for 5 years!

We are no longer a producing nation we are consumers...
Aaron :)

Don't count us out completely, just a couple of years ago, it was difficult to walk into a store and find items that were made in the USA, but today, I'm finding it easier all the time. It may not be on the level as years ago, but it's making a comeback.

Don't count us out completely, just a couple of years ago, it was difficult to walk into a store and find items that were made in the USA, but today, I'm finding it easier all the time. It may not be on the level as years ago, but it's making a comeback.

We are producing but mainly big ticket items, it may be too little too late. And based on the current political rhetoric I don't think anybody in charge has a clue, they are off in their own little world.

Aaron :)

We are producing but mainly big ticket items, it may be too little too late.


Not hardly, I went to the local hardware store to pickup some electrical outlets and covers, both made in the USA. as well as my replacement hickory sledge hammer handle.

Not hardly, I went to the local hardware store to pickup some electrical outlets and covers, both made in the USA. as well as my replacement hickory sledge hammer handle.

I would be interested to see just how much stuff is being sold at the larger retail level that is made in the USA. Lowe's and Home Depot are notorious for purchasing from the lowest cost vendor, country of manufacture be damned. And unfortunately too many Americans shop only by price. ABC has a series called Made in America, they showed a home builder that was trying to build a house using only American built products, possible; yes but at a cost. When ABC contacted HD and Lowes about stocking US produced products they got the "we will be happy to special order them is someone wants them"...they continue to stock primarily Chinese produced products; tools, pipes, pipe fitting, electrical devices etc. I don't have any local hardware stores left, they have all gone out of business. :(

Aaron :)

I would be interested to see just how much stuff is being sold at the larger retail level that is made in the USA. Lowe's and Home Depot are notorious for purchasing from the lowest cost vendor, country of manufacture be damned. And unfortunately too many Americans shop only by price. ABC has a series called Made in America, they showed a home builder that was trying to build a house using only American built products, possible; yes but at a cost. When ABC contacted HD and Lowes about stocking US produced products they got the "we will be happy to special order them is someone wants them"...they continue to stock primarily Chinese produced products; tools, pipes, pipe fitting, electrical devices etc. I don't have any local hardware stores left, they have all gone out of business. :(

Aaron :)



I'm not saying that imported items are not being stocked at big box stores, but in that "Made in USA" products are now getting easier to find, which is only because more people are asking for or purchasing them, and this in turn helps aid the "reshoring" trend.

True, but one must also remember other factors that came into play.

The oil crisis of the early 1970s was based on politics, not crude oil supply, but it resulted in higher prices and limited supply at the pumps. Some will remember the line-ups and limits for buying fuel. A high price and uncertain availability made customers apprehensive. Small, fuel-efficient vehicles made a lot of sense. Transit made sense. Bicycles made a lot of sense.

Fast-forward a few years. The oil-producing nations were hard at work. The line-ups at the pumps were gone and the price came down from the peak of the 1970s crisis. The pain at the pumps was not too severe any longer. And more importantly, it was possible to get fuel whenever a pump was available. Stations no longer had to close temporarily because they were out of gas. With a readily available supply of cheap fuel, the incentive to go with a small, fuel-efficient car was gone. As for those who had taken up cycling to save money, some found the comfort and convenience of a car was a powerful draw.

But that was the world of the late 1980s and the 1990s. We're now undergoing another shift. We are coping with an economic slump which is affecting a lot of people. When times are tough, it only makes sense to evaluate all expenses. Right now, it seems some are trying to ride out the recession, even if it means accumulating more debt to maintain their pre-recession lifestyle. But the longer it drags on the more sense it will make to cut expenses wherever possible. For those who drive, there is the question of whether it is financially wiser to keep the existing car which isn't all that good on gas or to pay more for a vehicle which uses less fuel.

Car-free living or even car-light living is seldom the first step. More often, I see people who want to find more economical ways to continue driving. But they will drive less or quit driving entirely if the annoyances outweigh the benefits.

My guess — and this is only a guess — is that we will see a lot more minor annoyances for motorists over the next number of years. These could be issues with the price of fuel, the availability of fuel, the price of the vehicle or gridlock in cities which cannot afford to do major road network upgrades. Eventually there's a breaking point, even for the most dedicated drivers. When that happens, our motoring friends, neighbours and coworkers will seek us out to learn how we handle everyday life with little or no car use.

From the tone of the first post and the blog associated with it what will they be looking to car free people for? No transportation means no international trade. No fuel means no flying, shipping, busses, trains, or reason to go to the city to work, no banking no interstate travel. For at least 30 years we have heard that the end of the ICE is at hand. No one seems to believe it anymore and car free people are not a beacon to 90+ percent of their neighbors believe a solution will be found that will keep them from falling into a pre-industrail society.

Make no mistake I agree things are hard today but are they harder than they were in the depression? Not by a long shot and one look at how our leaders are spending our tax money shows they don't believe it is as bad as the gloom and doom people believe. Things may not be as bad as they were during World War Two. Car free people are seen by the rest of society as a bit of a cult. Nice to have around but not something anyone dreams of becoming.

For what the first post and the Blog is wanting to be a beacon for requires that our society doesn't recover economically. In other words a full depression with the unemployment that comes with it. If that turns out to be true I won't hold my breath till my neighbors start asking me about a beater bike with buckets straped to the back.

My point was not about a time with no transportation but about annoyances and inconveniences associated with driving.

Right now those who choose to drive must deal with the cost of the vehicle, the cost of fuel, the cost of maintenance, licensing and insurance and the cost of parking, just to name a few. Those who are in larger centres and deal with traffic jams and gridlock have additional frustrations. But such things are still considered manageable. The convenience still outweighs the inconvenience. And for some, there are at present no other feasible transportation options.

There is a point where the inconveniences and annoyances will outweigh the benefits of driving. That point is not the same for everyone, but it exists. And when pushed too far, drivers will respond by re-evaluating their transportation practices. It has happened before.

It's not just the automobile. Our entire lifestyles are becoming unaffordable and the gap between the rich and the poor is widening drastically and fast while the middle class is sliding gradually towards poverty as well. This will not end up pretty. I hope I'll be dead by then.

The car versus bike issue is irrelevant here, it's just one of many symptoms, our problems are much bigger than that.

And, as many on this forum have pointed out, many people would give up lots of other stuff before giving up their car. People would like to pretend they have higher status than they really have, and would refuse to admit that they can no longer afford the various status
symbols.

On the other hand, most of the modern society is too brain-washed by the media and kept stupid by the govt (that serves the rich) so no one will take action against the economic inequality and we'll just slide into chaos or become a police state. The minority will be silenced and the majority will live in slums.

Read "Snow Crash". That's the future of our planet.

I sincerely hope you turn out to be utterly, completely wrong. But I wouldn't bet real money against you.

My point was not about a time with no transportation but about annoyances and inconveniences associated with driving.

Right now those who choose to drive must deal with the cost of the vehicle, the cost of fuel, the cost of maintenance, licensing and insurance and the cost of parking, just to name a few. Those who are in larger centres and deal with traffic jams and gridlock have additional frustrations. But such things are still considered manageable. The convenience still outweighs the inconvenience. And for some, there are at present no other feasible transportation options.

There is a point where the inconveniences and annoyances will outweigh the benefits of driving. That point is not the same for everyone, but it exists. And when pushed too far, drivers will respond by re-evaluating their transportation practices. It has happened before.

I am not disagreeing that if things get so bad people can't stand it something will change. It has in the past and for now one look at the migration pattern in the US from the Northeast to the southwest is only one of those changes. But what I was saying is that if we do recover history has shown us that people will go back to what they consider the "golden age" as they have after each and every recession, depression and even after every major war we have had in the US. The division between the have and have nots may grow bigger I don't know but people in the US gravitate towards wanting to be the Haves whenever recovery look like it is about to happen. Look how we measure the recovery or lack thereof today? Car sales, home sales, retail sales and credit use. So if we collapse or even stay flat long enough and there is no recovery people may rethink their method of transportation. But if we do recover people will see this as a bad dream and start the rat race all over again. At least if history is any indication.

But what I was saying is that if we do recover history has shown us that people will go back to what they consider the "golden age" as they have after each and every recession, depression and even after every major war we have had in the US.
That makes sense. And I think it's a part of what happened in the late 1980s and the 1990s when cars began to get bigger again.

The motivation for going to small cars in the 1970s and early 1980s was primarily an economic push. Driving suddenly became expensive. When the price dropped, the search was on for cars which brought back the joy of driving once again.

Maybe I'm a bit too optimistic here, but I'm also thinking about my own transition to a car-light lifestyle. It happened as I was becoming much better off financially. For me, it wasn't about giving up the car or cutting back on driving; it was about having more opportunities to experience the joy of walking and the joy of cycling. So it wasn't so much a push away from the car as a pull to a lifestyle which suits me much better. If I could discover this, others can also discover it.

Two bedrooms in Queens!

Wow. I feel for you because the rent is about what I'm paying for a mortgage. The problem is saving for a downpayment because home prices are at their lowest and may even drop further but you can't save because the rent takes almost all your income. I had to save for ten years to get the money for my downpayment and live in a studio for 5 years!

Owning a house scares me. Unless I had lots of money to buy in a nice area, I'd rather rent. I lived in some nice places before that turned lousy in a matter fo few years. If you rent, you just move. If you own, you're screwed. Mortgage is still more expensive that renting too, then you have taxes and maintenance costs. I know some people in my area who bough houses within the last 10 years and they're struggling.

I sincerely hope you turn out to be utterly, completely wrong. But I wouldn't bet real money against you.

I do too. But I just can't be optimistic any more.

Owning a house scares me. Unless I had lots of money to buy in a nice area, I'd rather rent. I lived in some nice places before that turned lousy in a matter fo few years. If you rent, you just move. If you own, you're screwed. Mortgage is still more expensive that renting too, then you have taxes and maintenance costs. I know some people in my area who bough houses within the last 10 years and they're struggling.

Or if you do buy, be solvent enough pay cash. Another option is to rent out what you own. I have one friend that owns four houses and rents them out, and lives in a small condo. We own property and a couple of houses...all paid for, and have considered moving to an apartment. I can rent the houses for more than enough to cover the cost of the the apartment as well as provide some income.

Aaron :)

It's not just the automobile. Our entire lifestyles are becoming unaffordable and the gap between the rich and the poor is widening drastically and fast while the middle class is sliding gradually towards poverty as well. This will not end up pretty. I hope I'll be dead by then.

While everyone talks about the high price of gas and automobile ownership, what is missed are all the good paying jobs that disapeared! There was a news article that stated for the first time, the majority of those unemployed have college degrees! Tens of thousands of college kids can't find jobs or at least ones that will enable them to buy a car and pay off their loans! I believe the average college grad has about 30K in loans. Who is going to buy a 30K car, pay off 30K (or more) in loans with a job that pays 30K?

From the tone of the first post and the blog associated with it what will they be looking to car free people for? No transportation means no international trade. No fuel means no flying, shipping, busses, trains, or reason to go to the city to work, no banking no interstate travel. For at least 30 years we have heard that the end of the ICE is at hand. No one seems to believe it anymore and car free people are not a beacon to 90+ percent of their neighbors believe a solution will be found that will keep them from falling into a pre-industrail society.

Make no mistake I agree things are hard today but are they harder than they were in the depression? Not by a long shot and one look at how our leaders are spending our tax money shows they don't believe it is as bad as the gloom and doom people believe. Things may not be as bad as they were during World War Two. Car free people are seen by the rest of society as a bit of a cult. Nice to have around but not something anyone dreams of becoming.

For what the first post and the Blog is wanting to be a beacon for requires that our society doesn't recover economically. In other words a full depression with the unemployment that comes with it. If that turns out to be true I won't hold my breath till my neighbors start asking me about a beater bike with buckets straped to the back.

If you look closely at the original Blog's actual posting, you will find that it was posted a few years back. What that means is that we are simply fallen into another denial phase of psuedo recoveries that blanketed us oh so securely since around 1973 or so. Can you honestly say that you are doing at least marginally better in the past few years? Be honest with yourself. Because most are not-or don't want you to know they are still strapped financially. I still am approached by others quietly when I am stopped for a long light or at a restaurant about my little bikes and how they limit my dependence on a car. I am not saying give up the car. Just lessen dependence is fine for most (even though they don't care to admit it out loud).

While everyone talks about the high price of gas and automobile ownership, what is missed are all the good paying jobs that disapeared! There was a news article that stated for the first time, the majority of those unemployed have college degrees! Tens of thousands of college kids can't find jobs or at least ones that will enable them to buy a car and pay off their loans! I believe the average college grad has about 30K in loans. Who is going to buy a 30K car, pay off 30K (or more) in loans with a job that pays 30K?

It's one of the reasons I'm afraid of moving and changing jobs. I have a good and secure job right now. I would love to move out of NYC but I'm not sure what I can find out there. Even though I'm ready to scale down and I already live pretty simple life. I was told that my institution receives thousands of resumes per day.

If you look closely at the original Blog's actual posting, you will find that it was posted a few years back. What that means is that we are simply fallen into another denial phase of psuedo recoveries that blanketed us oh so securely since around 1973 or so. Can you honestly say that you are doing at least marginally better in the past few years? Be honest with yourself. Because most are not-or don't want you to know they are still strapped financially. I still am approached by others quietly when I am stopped for a long light or at a restaurant about my little bikes and how they limit my dependence on a car. I am not saying give up the car. Just lessen dependence is fine for most (even though they don't care to admit it out loud).

No. I haven't received a pay increase in over 5 years, except for the tiny inflation adjustments. Meantime gas and electricity costs more than doubled. Transit fares doubled. My rent went up 30%. All insurance and many taxes and fees went up significantly. Food prices doubled too. I'm lucky I don't have kids. I know many people at work that struggle, drowning in debt, working two jobs or giving up their health benefits to save up some money.

No. I haven't received a pay increase in over 5 years, except for the tiny inflation adjustments.

Count your blessings. My income is definitely way down in that time.

No. I haven't received a pay increase in over 5 years, except for the tiny inflation adjustments. Meantime gas and electricity costs more than doubled. Transit fares doubled. My rent went up 30%. All insurance and many taxes and fees went up significantly. Food prices doubled too. I'm lucky I don't have kids. I know many people at work that struggle, drowning in debt, working two jobs or giving up their health benefits to save up some money.

This is representational of much of America's middle class, our income is down quite a bit from our high of 12 years ago, my pay has gone up incrementally but has not kept up with inflation. My wife lost 40% of her pay check when the company she works for went bankrupt and canceled their contract. Amazingly their CEO has gotten multiple multi-million dollar bonuses. Welcome to America, we are now a plutocracy.

Aaron :)

No. I haven't received a pay increase in over 5 years, except for the tiny inflation adjustments. Meantime gas and electricity costs more than doubled. Transit fares doubled. My rent went up 30%. All insurance and many taxes and fees went up significantly. Food prices doubled too. I'm lucky I don't have kids. I know many people at work that struggle, drowning in debt, working two jobs or giving up their health benefits to save up some money.


This is representational of much of America's middle class, our income is down quite a bit from our high of 12 years ago, my pay has gone up incrementally but has not kept up with inflation. My wife lost 40% of her pay check when the company she works for went bankrupt and canceled their contract. Amazingly their CEO has gotten multiple multi-million dollar bonuses. Welcome to America, we are now a plutocracy.

Aaron :)

Thank you both so much for your honesty. I really appreciate it. Most would or will continue to suffer in silence, buffered by a smiling face presented to others in public. That is my argument for this particular post-it has not really gotten better for the masses-Middle Class on down.

The middle class takes it up the, you know what. The poor get help from the govt and the rich, well... are rich and the middle class is paying for both.

Anyway you look at wasteful spending, it is sickening. How about some good old fashioned anger directed to the selfsame people of the lifestyles of the rich and flaky: http://www.tylershields.com/2012/01/10/christian-louboutin/ (http://www.tylershields.com/2012/01/10/christian-louboutin/). When was the last time you were able to even hold briefly that amount of money in any form? A more recent shenanigans by a daughter of Hollywood royalty happily trashing a hyper expensive bag just for the thrill of it. Her take:

"........Destruction is a beautiful version of freedom…
Would you want this bag?
Are you sad to see me destroy it?......"-
http://www.tylershields.com/2012/05/26/birkin/ (http://www.tylershields.com/2012/05/26/birkin/)

I don't even know how to respond to this perfect example of what is wrong in this mixed up upside down priorities world while we merrily dance to the next Depression. As for her challenge, I am not sad, just this thought-Warning Self Censored Sentence Ahead: I cannot reproduce what I am thinking and feeling here in a family friendly forum! Perhaps you share my thought?

Later Edit: There is only one more thing I can say here. I am so glad and grateful for the good health & ownership of my 3 wonderful bikes. They are not expensive compared to those handbags or houses. But I can manage no matter what comes my way with these bikes.

Thank you both so much for your honesty. I really appreciate it. Most would or will continue to suffer in silence, buffered by a smiling face presented to others in public. That is my argument for this particular post-it has not really gotten better for the masses-Middle Class on down.

I am of the opinion that too many Americans have little to no clue of their true financial state, and quite often live well past their means. I was raised to be thrifty, not cheap, not a skin flint, thrifty. I learned that it is much better to a have a few things of quality that I paid for in full, than a lot that was purchased on credit and will be paying for long after they are gone. Too many people got caught up in the payment trap, it only costs $x a month. Even financing a house in recent years was not necessarily a smart move, as millions are finding out.

I was reading an article today about how much money companies are no longer putting into their employee 401 K plans as matching funds, yet this is what people are supposed to retire on? Defined benefit retirement plans are all but a thing of the past. Very few cradle to grave jobs exist anymore. You and your family are on your own. We need to get back to the communities that look out for their own. The Amish are a good example.

Aaron :)

gentle people this is not a rich Amerinican capitalist problem only. Look what is happening in Europe, Spain, Greece? Greace is hardly a rich guy capitalist country nor is France or Spain. But government spending is just what we see complained about so much in personal finances here in the US. Only difference is the government is spending money it doesn't have and using tax payer credit cards to try and keep things going. I can't put a positive spin on things but if unemployment is at 10 percent it is 250 percent better than it was during the depression. Yes things are bad and yet 90 percent of the population is still working or retired.

There is not a war between the rich and the poor. If there is a middle class it would rather be rich and people tended to try and move in that direction. That is how it has always been even before cars. Most of the rich got rich by working for it, unless we are talking presidents and congress. Look at the society structure of Rome and even early Greece or Egypt. There were people that had things and there were people that didn't and the number that didn't was much higher than it is in the US today.

I for one do not believe collapse of the US is Inevitable, possible but not inevitable. I have to believe we can turn the economy around or if not we need to look to the survivalists and arm ourselves for the great fall. If what is happening in Greece and France happens here there will be fighting in the streets and a bicycle with buckets on the back will not be fast enough to get past the flying bricks. If then we do recover no one will be looking for our imput on how to live. Lets get serious and confess half of the people in the US don't like the other half. Not even cyclists like all cyclists. The truth is the only way we will ever be a beacon to the rest of Society is if the whole world breaks down and we, the US, becomes a giant island.

There is the "official" unemployment rate and there is the "real" unemployment rate. The government doesn't count people that have stopped looking for work and whose benefits have run out, nor do they count the under employed. Both of which are real groups. Factor in those and the "real" unemployment rate is pushing 20%.

IMHO the Euro is in deep trouble, and the US is entangled in their system. If it collapses I don't see there not being major repercussions in the US financial system. Unfortunately we don't produce a whole lot in this country anymore except a lot of bit ticket items. Something like 70% of the US economy is driven by consumerism, however those consumers don't have a whole of cash to spend at this point, they owe their souls to the banks in the form of unsecured credit. Then you have the stock market which no longer bears any resemblance to reality. Too many traders are interesting in only churning stocks to make a quick buck when they are purchased low and sold high, they do nothing in terms of productivity, but they make money, fiat money. Then you have the politicians whose only goal is to get themselves re-elected, not doing what is best for the country or there constituents.

Aaron :)

There is the "official" unemployment rate and there is the "real" unemployment rate. The government doesn't count people that have stopped looking for work and whose benefits have run out, nor do they count the under employed. Both of which are real groups. Factor in those and the "real" unemployment rate is pushing 20%.

IMHO the Euro is in deep trouble, and the US is entangled in their system. If it collapses I don't see there not being major repercussions in the US financial system. Unfortunately we don't produce a whole lot in this country anymore except a lot of bit ticket items. Something like 70% of the US economy is driven by consumerism, however those consumers don't have a whole of cash to spend at this point, they owe their souls to the banks in the form of unsecured credit. Then you have the stock market which no longer bears any resemblance to reality. Too many traders are interesting in only churning stocks to make a quick buck when they are purchased low and sold high, they do nothing in terms of productivity, but they make money, fiat money. Then you have the politicians whose only goal is to get themselves re-elected, not doing what is best for the country or there constituents.

Aaron :)

So the question is do you believe the collapse is inevitable?

So the question is do you believe the collapse is inevitable?

Absolutely; sooner or later the Earth is toast. That's why we need to get populations living off planet.

Absolutely; sooner or later the Earth is toast........


I'll wager that the Human race won't be around to see that day, regardless if we moved elsewhere.