Long Distance Competition/Ultracycling, Randonneuring and Endurance Cycling - Long distance body aches

Okay, this is to only be expected...I realize that. Their are naturally ways to prevent problems...starting with don't do high mileage riding. Their are other answers as well or no one would be doing high mileage riding.

Let me start with the different body parts and go from their:
1. Neck. I heard the interview George Thomas had this past week with Leah Goldstein and she was talking about the problem she ran into last year during RAAM, Shermer Neck. By the sound of it Shermer Neck is generally referred to when you lose muscle control in the neck. In her case she couldn't lift her head. They had to rig up a system to hold her head up for her. My situation isn't that bad but I I keep wandering in I'm on the verge/heading in that direction. Most of the time(on and off bike) I have a heck of time trying to turn or lift my head(looking straight overhead) anymore. I never used to have the problem until I started doing long distance riding and it never has really gotten worse but it remains persistence day and night, on and off bike. Considering I've never had any kind of back or neck trouble over the past decade or more, I tend to truly think this comes from long distance biking. Any ideas on ways to get rid of it. It's the worst when it comes to turning the head to see if anything is coming from behind. No, the answer isn't to put a mirror on the helmet or bike. The answer to take care of the neck so the neck isn't the problem. How?

2. Upper arm. For quite a while my right arm, never the left arm that I can remember of, had ached me whenever I do long rides. I generally don't ever notice it on short rides, just long rides. Now I have to add the disclosure, on my 224 mile ride yesterday...it never bothered me once. That was a first!!!!!! Since I can't remember which side of the arm is the tricep/bicep, the problem I have is on the back side of the arm. On short rides I don't notice it but once I start getting toward 100 miles it'll start aching. The only way to temporarily relieve it is to let go of the handlebars for a while and let the arm dangle. Sometimes it will go away on it own but generally once it starts it sticks around until the ride is over. I won't say it gets overbearing but it does make things rather unpleasant. A day like yesterday, anytime I do big miles would truly be a pleasure...in terms of arm discomfort.

3. Knees. Oh yes, the lovely knees. Generally you always think of hearing of people taking up biking to get exercise after they have managed to blow up their knees from running or skiing. I'm running to the exact opposite situation right now. I'm getting the knee trouble thanks to biking. Yes, once again, just like with the arm it comes from long distance riding. Last Monday(May 22nd) when I did 227 miles I finished with both the thighs right above the knees and the knees aching and saying it was time to get off the bike. The next several days I took it easy riding only 15-25 miles a day and the problem almost disappeared by the time this weekend came around. Just like with the arm it isn't a debilitating pain but it is something that I know says take it easy or regret it. Yesterday when I did the 224 miles I only had a small amount trouble toward the end and it wasn't bad at all. Today is when the discomfort set in. Generally today I was mostly noticing when I would stand to climb. One difference between the 22nd and yesterday was I started off on the 22nd at a stiff pace and pretty much hammered myself early on in the ride while yesterday I started off much easier and finished the ride feeling like I was just leaving home for a long ride instead of just getting home from a long ride. I know this pain could easily come from bike fit. It's the left knee that is giving me the trouble. On the 22nd I noticed a small amount on the right knee that disappeared quickly. I didn't notice any trouble with the right knee yesterday or today. The discomfort didn't seem as bad as last week so I'm going to have to watch the next couple of days and see how it behaves.

4. Hot toes. Chefissac made a post earlier today about feet pain. I know I don't get feet pain but right now I get hot toes. The feet aren't hot just the toes on the right foot. I haven't noticed the problem on the left foot at all. Out by the end of the toenails it gets hot toward the end a ride and makes me glad the ride is over so I can get my shoes off. I look at the feet and I don't see any problems at all. I do wear cotton ankle socks. I'm not sure if a different kind of sock would make a difference or not???

If I could eliminate these problems and then get ride of the other biggie that I think I would have to deal with doctor about it would make long distance riding a whole new adventure and a heck of a lot funner.

How old are you?

And how much are you increasing your weekly mileage?

39.

I've been riding pretty much consistently around 400 a week. Over the past year I've ridden 18000 miles. My average since August 1st last year is 54.6 miles(including days off), since January 1st it's 57.2, and in the past 60 days it's 62.25. The 60 day average has been above 50 a day ever since Sept 21st last year. It's only been above 60 a couple of days and those have been in the past few weeks. Most of the time in the past month its been hovering in the 56-59 range. The 224/80+- yesterday/today has boosted it up and over 60 for the second time.

Have you considered maybe going to a doctor to find out if your problems are possibly not coming from riding but from something physically wrong with you? The neck is nothing to play with. What you describe could be caused from disc/ vertebrae issues. If all is normal there, THEN start looking for external causes.

A nerve pinched by a herniated or ruptured disc could also be causing your arm issues.

Note: I'm not a doctor, and you take medical advice over the Internets at your own risk. That said....


39.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this is probably it. ;)

As you get older, things just start to hurt. Such is the way of life. No one told me either, until it started to hit.

It would be wise to get your regular physical, and explain to your doctor what's going on, including your typical riding. You may want to check with a sports doctor to be on the safe side. But all this sounds very typical.

You may also want to get your fit checked first. Your body is not static, and these things change over time. Raising the bars and adjusting the saddle might alleviate some issues.

But even if adjusting your fit does fix the issues, sooner or later stuff is gonna hurt. Welcome to middle age.



I've been riding pretty much consistently around 400 a week.
Yeah, that can do it too. ;) Again could be fit, it could also just be that you are wearing things out with huge mileage. After all, you're doing an enormous amount of repetitive activity, year after year. Sooner or later, something's got to give.

1 & 2. How is your core and upper body strength? The stronger my core and upper body, the more comfortable I am on longer distances. I can sit with good posture on the bicycle for longer, and my neck, arms, shoulders etc. don't fatigue and get sore.

3. Where exactly are you feeling the knee pain?

4. Move your cleat back as far as it will go ... and switch to wool socks.

my first year of randonneuring was marked by sore knees. I've gotten over that somehow, maybe because I'm trying to spin more. I also moved my seat forward (and up, but that goes with forward)

I don't see 39 as being particularly advanced age. Lots of people in their 60's and later riding very strongly. Males start losing a lot of their ability to produce testosterone later in life, I've heard 50. As I understand it, that makes it harder to build muscle, but if you still have it you keep it.

They say that Shermer's neck can happen to anyone riding long distances and nobody really knows what to do about it. There are neck specific exercises, not sure that anyone knows if they work.

Pretty sure that lifting light weights will help with arm pain. On the 400k I just rode, I wore a strap for tennis elbow, that helped with some of the pain I often experience.

I don't see 39 as being particularly advanced age. Lots of people in their 60's and later riding very strongly.
Sure, and again it could definitely be a fit or overuse issue, or something that does require medical attention. I did not intent to imply that he should trade in the bike for a wheelchair. (Tho' if he really does have serious neck issues, he might need a recumbent.... )

However, it's perfectly normal to get more aches and pains as you approach 40. Discomfort here and there doesn't necessarily mean you are on the verge of multiple medical crises.

It's also my understanding that pain is part of the territory with endurance events. Part of his challenge as an endurance athlete is he's got to figure out what is a minor fit issue, what is overuse, what is normal getting-older-aches-and-pains that he needs to bull through, what are overuse injuries that a slightly older body finds harder to recover from, and what are serious indicators of a medical issue.

It could also be a mix. For example, his neck issues might be serious, whereas the elbow could be a garden-variety ache.



Males start losing a lot of their ability to produce testosterone later in life, I've heard 50. As I understand it, that makes it harder to build muscle, but if you still have it you keep it.
My understanding is that endurance athletes peak around 35, gradually decline until the 60s, and after that there's a steeper drop-off. This happens to men and women, and isn't completely eradicated by taking synthetic T. But I'm not sure the causality of the aging process is fully understood yet.

There are lots of physiological changes that reduce performance around the 35 year mark. E.g. VO2max falls, you don't recover as fast, LT slowly drops (see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2375571/ for a little more detail). Ideally, what you lose in the raw horsepower and recovery, you gain in tactics and experience.

I concur that exercise will usually combat many of the ill effects of aging, but I'm not sure how this applies to ultra-endurance athletes, especially cyclists. If it's a slow day, I'll see what I can find. :D

To me it sounds like bike fit and equipment choice issues. What I use for a sporty 40 mile club ride is very different from what I use on a 400k or greater distance. Do not discount the value of a more upright riding position or using a 28c or larger tire with lower pressures. Wool socks and setting the cleats back also help with some issues. Hard core roadies often scoff at these suggestions but it works!

39.

I've been riding pretty much consistently around 400 a week. Over the past year I've ridden 18000 miles. My average since August 1st last year is 54.6 miles(including days off), since January 1st it's 57.2, and in the past 60 days it's 62.25. The 60 day average has been above 50 a day ever since Sept 21st last year. It's only been above 60 a couple of days and those have been in the past few weeks. Most of the time in the past month its been hovering in the 56-59 range. The 224/80+- yesterday/today has boosted it up and over 60 for the second time.

I agree with the advice to see a doctor. Even if the cause of the problem is bicycle fit, at this stage you have exacerbated injuries for long enough that ignoring them further is asking for trouble. You only get one body per lifetime!

As to bicycle fit, presumably you haven't changed your fit very much over the years because it was working for you? But as you get older, things that you used to be able to handle just become progressively more difficult to handle. E.g., I used to ride with a high saddle position and toes pointed way down. But as I got older (mid-30's), my tendons just couldn't handle the overstretching and I started getting a lot of pain behind the knee. It took a while to figure out what to do and where to put the saddle so that I can ride long distance without problems.

In your case, I would certainly guess that you may need to raise your handlebars to help with the neck problem.

And ... buy a mirror. Not so that you won't need to turn your head any more--you still need to make a final check before changing lane position--but so that you have better situational awareness and can ride more safely. I have not heard anyone provide an argument as to a significant downside to using a mirror. The upside is that you know, for example, that there is a truck cresting the hill a half-mile back and he's going to be coming up on you just as the shoulder runs out a couple of hundred yards ahead. Better to know that with time to plan! I guess that some people see wearing a mirror as making them look like a Fred. Well, better Fred than dead, I say!

Nick

1 & 2. How is your core and upper body strength? The stronger my core and upper body, the more comfortable I am on longer distances. I can sit with good posture on the bicycle for longer, and my neck, arms, shoulders etc. don't fatigue and get sore.

3. Where exactly are you feeling the knee pain?

4. Move your cleat back as far as it will go ... and switch to wool socks.

I will fess I have never have been one for weight lifting. My lower body is fairly strong thanks to biking the hills around NH but my upper body isn't all that strong.

One thing I haven't heard anyone suggest...yes, I will blast myself here big time since I thought about after making the post yesterday, I don't wear cycling gloves. I didn't notice the problem much at all over the winter when I was wearing ragg wool mittens but now that spring/summer has arrived and I'm not wearing anything on the hands I've noticed the right arm flare back up again. The location is where your hand would fall if you were to cross your arms while talking with someone. On the back side of the arm where your hand would be is where I notice it.

The knee pain is on both sides of the knees up toward the thigh part of the leg. I call it in the dimple area(I know bad explanation). As you run your hand down your leg as you get to the knee you feel the indentation at the top of the knee. It's right there that I notice it and it does come up toward the top(upper, thigh side of the kneecap).

I'm thinking your idea of the cleat might be the problem, which creates another problem that I know I have to deal with anyways. My shoes are pretty much toast and one of the cleat bolts won't stay in, on the left shoe(yes, the knee I'm having trouble with). I just looked and that cleat is all the way forward. I'll do some checking with this when I get home and see if that completely resolves the problem or not.

When you say wear wool socks, you are referring to the hot toes...correct. Wouldn't they give you even hotter toes during the summer months??? This sounds like totally crazy advice to suggest someone to wear wool socks during the summer months. Sorry to say it, but I think I need to go back and really restudy wool again.

When you say wear wool socks, you are referring to the hot toes...correct. Wouldn't they give you even hotter toes during the summer months??? This sounds like totally crazy advice to suggest someone to wear wool socks during the summer months. Sorry to say it, but I think I need to go back and really restudy wool again.

I was going to make that suggestion too. What I use are thin wool socks - ones specifically made for athletic activity in mild weather. NOT talking about heavy wool lumberjack socks here. :)
My favorites are Icebreakers "Bike Ultralite Mini".

I think its because they manage moisture better than cotton, that's how they keep me from developing hot feet. Cotton is the worst. A certified way of foot discomfort when riding in hot weather, for me.

I will fess I have never have been one for weight lifting. My lower body is fairly strong thanks to biking the hills around NH but my upper body isn't all that strong.

It makes a noticeable difference if you do strenghten your core and upper body. I'm not talking building up like a bodybuilder, just build up some tone and strength. After all, on a long ride you've got to hold your upper body in more or less one position for hours and hours. If you don't have a strong upper body, that becomes difficult and painful.



One thing I haven't heard anyone suggest...yes, I will blast myself here big time since I thought about after making the post yesterday, I don't wear cycling gloves. I didn't notice the problem much at all over the winter when I was wearing ragg wool mittens but now that spring/summer has arrived and I'm not wearing anything on the hands I've noticed the right arm flare back up again. The location is where your hand would fall if you were to cross your arms while talking with someone. On the back side of the arm where your hand would be is where I notice it.

The triceps. Do some triceps exercises.



The knee pain is on both sides of the knees up toward the thigh part of the leg. I call it in the dimple area(I know bad explanation). As you run your hand down your leg as you get to the knee you feel the indentation at the top of the knee. It's right there that I notice it and it does come up toward the top(upper, thigh side of the kneecap).

I'm not a Dr, and I strongly recommend going to a sports Dr ... especially since there's a possibility that you could be suffering from quadreceps tendonitis (if you're standing, that hurts right directly above the knee, for about an inch or two).



I'm thinking your idea of the cleat might be the problem, which creates another problem that I know I have to deal with anyways. My shoes are pretty much toast and one of the cleat bolts won't stay in, on the left shoe(yes, the knee I'm having trouble with). I just looked and that cleat is all the way forward. I'll do some checking with this when I get home and see if that completely resolves the problem or not.

New shoes may make a big difference too.



When you say wear wool socks, you are referring to the hot toes...correct. Wouldn't they give you even hotter toes during the summer months??? This sounds like totally crazy advice to suggest someone to wear wool socks during the summer months. Sorry to say it, but I think I need to go back and really restudy wool again.

I wear thin wool (merino or cashmere, sometimes blended with angora) socks all year round when I cycle. As Steamer says, they manage moisture better than cotton.

What about overdoing it? Is that a crazy possibility or a real one?

What about overdoing it? Is that a crazy possibility or a real one?

I definitely overdo it occasionally. But what I've found is that the limits that you think you have may not not be actual limits. Your body is programmed to keep you from exerting yourself too much, but will relent if it thinks you are being chased by velociraptors. On the other hand, nerve damage can be permanent, so it makes sense to decide if something has permanent effects or not.

I definitely overdo it occasionally. But what I've found is that the limits that you think you have may not not be actual limits. Your body is programmed to keep you from exerting yourself too much, but will relent if it thinks you are being chased by velociraptors. On the other hand, nerve damage can be permanent, so it makes sense to decide if something has permanent effects or not.

I would have to agree on the limits side of the equation. So much of what you THINK you can can is what you can do. If you THINK you can do more than you will find that you can. Sometimes you will really surprise yourself. I keep on doing that all the time.

I can also agree that you can overdo it by not giving the body enough time between 'punishments'...at least not until you have worked up to that level. If that weren't the case than all of us could sprint all out forever. We wouldn't have to recover...not even for a second.

You list a variety of issues that most likely result from a variety of causes. Obviously, if you are experiencing discomfort - you are probably causing damage to some tissues, even if other tissues continue to respond physiologically.

Supposedly, knowledgeable ultra-cyclists claim that if you properly equip your bicycle and fit it correctly for your purpose you can avoid these issues. This may be possible but I suspect you have simply applied to much intensity and or duration in your ride schedule and are now hopelessly locked in to negative tissue adaptations of certain peripherals.

I used to tell people as long as I only hurt "half the time" - I would continue to race - I don't say it anymore.