Fifty Plus (50+) - Faster and faster

This morning I did a 35.4 mile ride with a couple of stops and a few slow downs because of some cars and a school bus. I still managed to best my previous best avg. Today I had an overall avg of 17.7mph. Yes, I know that there are others where they avg 19, 20, more usually, but I'm pleased. Had the wind been mild, 2~3mph instead of 8~9, I may have had an even better avg as the wind most of the time was blowing sideways or headwind--there were only very short distances where it was a tailwind. At the 23 mile mark I was near 17.9 as an average...the wind started picking up on the last third or so of the ride.

I think that's a great job. Lately my solo rides have been in the 40-50 mile range with one or two brief stops, and I've been finishing them at just a hair over 17 myself.

I'm impressed by both you guys. I had a very strange ride yesterday. I've been spending the last month just putting miles in my legs but decided to crank it up a notch. The ride is 34.2 mi. with 2200 ft. of climbing most of which comes in the last 7-8 miles. It was cool but a bit humid. At about mile 27 when the climbing really begins I was at 16.3 mph. I found myself climbing at 4.5 mph instead of the 6-7 mph I usually do. Couldn't understand why. I was having the hardest time just turning the pedals. On the flats I was doing just fine. I'm guessing I didn't eat or drink enough given the weather...had one GU and a bottle of water with GU tab in it. Still I was fine on the flats and didn't feel like I was bonking. I'm perplexed.

I'm impressed by both you guys. I had a very strange ride yesterday. I've been spending the last month just putting miles in my legs but decided to crank it up a notch. The ride is 34.2 mi. with 2200 ft. of climbing most of which comes in the last 7-8 miles. It was cool but a bit humid. At about mile 27 when the climbing really begins I was at 16.3 mph. I found myself climbing at 4.5 mph instead of the 6-7 mph I usually do. Couldn't understand why. I was having the hardest time just turning the pedals. On the flats I was doing just fine. I'm guessing I didn't eat or drink enough given the weather...had one GU and a bottle of water with GU tab in it. Still I was fine on the flats and didn't feel like I was bonking. I'm perplexed.Some days are like that. The part of this kind of ride that remains hidden is how the body is adjusting. You merely felt like you weren't strong as usual, your body was getting a hard workout when it wasnt ready. Next time out? The body will be ready and you will enjoy the feel of it.

I find that any ride where I'm suffering and still doing my best is nothing to be discouraged over because your body will adjust and be stronger.

Hey Mikey, good going :thumb:

Sounds like a good thing you have going there Mikey. That is a good speed range for me also, I can cruise for quite a while at that cadence. I'm trying to step things up, now that I am getting my fitness back from the med down I had to take, into the 18-20mph range so I can start doing our club group rides and the Saturday shop rides on the RTT routes in Milton, FL.. I'd like to get to your mileage as my daily ride, as well. It seems you have got things going you way. Keep up the great work.

Bill

Average speeds are fun to discuss but I wouldn't take them too seriously. The biggest factor which brings down average speed is the time spent averaging in zeros or very small numbers.

In the days before cycle computers, "average" speed was calculated exactly as its name implies - total distance divide by total elapsed time from start to finish. (Remember your physics classes?:)) Nowadays computers stop counting when you aren't moving, so your down time doesn't get included. It makes you feel better because the numbers look better. But even so they still count time spent walking the bike, slowing for intersections, etc. Spend much time doing that and your computed fake-average speed can fall significantly.

Agreed Jim, the only reason I know my average speed is because the computer has that function. I use it for a mental benchmark like total elapsed time. Not really meaningful, but it lets me know what I just did. I can't rationalize any training using A/S as a metric anyway.

Back to Mikey's post.

Bill

I'm impressed by both you guys.

Don't be too impressed by me. My numbers reflect the flat terrain around here, something I had failed to consider/mention. I checked my log from last October's Hilly Hundred and my average was way lower, somewhere around 14 if I recall correctly.

Nice job Bikey Mikey. I think average speed is a good indicator of how your riding is measured as long as the metrics are the same. A lot of my rides have some training aspect in them, that incluldes hard efforts then recoveries which effects the average speed, but I still will look at the average speed once I'm back home even though it means nothing about the ride. On Tuesday I rode 7 miles from my home as a warmup to a club ride then after the club ride continued back home. About 1/2 way home on the warm-down I noticed that my average speed for the ride to that point was 20.5 mph which caused me to ride hard the rest of the way home to be able to ride @ 20.5 mph for 48 miles. What I really needed to do was to forget the average speed and use the last 7 miles to recover.

Feels good, doesn't it? Like when I did my first 30 miles in 2hrs total (15mph average-moving speed a bit higher.) I am a ways off your pace, but gaining on it.

In the days before cycle computers,

In the days before cycle computers we estimated our distance and speed.
Guess what? Not only did we go farther and faster than we do today, but it was also uphill both coming and going.

But even so they still count time spent walking the bike, slowing for intersections, etc. Spend much time doing that and your computed fake-average speed can fall significantly.

+1- and to illustrate; http://www.endomondo.com/workouts/59848195 Compare where the speed on the graph dips to the location of major intersections.

In the days before cycle computers we estimated our distance and speed.
Guess what? Not only did we go farther and faster than we do today, but it was also uphill both coming and going.

:thumb:

Rarely do I get up to 20mph- on the flat- with a tailwind and when I am feeling good. So average is always a lot less than that. I don't mind really as it is the hills I worry about--In fact some of them look terrifying but I do them but I can't remember the last one I walked. In fact I have stopped worrying about speed so much that I rarely take the Garmin out for a ride.

But My ride last weekend was done at an average of 13mph. Not bad for an old git that lives in a hilly area and is just settling in after a winter of just turning the wheels. Just wish I had got some more miles in before the ride because 7 hours of riding did hurt a bit.But I did stop for breakfast 2/3rds round.

Thanks for the congrats and input all. I use the avg as a reference only--as a guide or gauge of my improvement. I check the cyclocomputer every once in a while and it helps me push myself--like riding against a better rider.

I also feel good about my improvement as I'm using clips and straps, not clipless. I don't even tighten the straps so it's easy to remove my foot and prevent a tombay. I'm contemplating getting power grips as they will clamp your foot like clips and straps, but you can twist out like clipless--may be a way to get into clipless--but with the $200 repair I just had, clipless will have to wait and power grips would be an inexpensive transition and give me a better efficiency(especially since I don't strap in).

Wow. If you posted this on the 41 you would have been blown out of the water by now. They must have ten average speed threads going at any given time, and I read them only when there's nothing good on the WWF.

I enjoy Strava because it lets me compare performance over controlled circumstances. I don't like it when someone chooses a Strava segment that has you going through stop signs and red lights, because that's not good citizenship, at least if you want a fast time on a segment.

There are times when, with a gentle tailwind, etc, I suspect I can up my speed on a segment so I will hammer it as best I can. Otherwise, I have to go through too many stop signs and crap to make my average speed look decent.

It doesn't matter. Strava says under the best of circumstances I'm slow. A 60 y/o Clyde with a heart condition, riding a 30 pound bent just isn't going to set any land speed records around here.

In the days before cycle computers we estimated our distance and speed.
Guess what? Not only did we go farther and faster than we do today, but it was also uphill both coming and going.

Before bike computers I used to use a Huret odometer on the front wheel and a digital watch and did the math in my head. I've gotten quite lazy since bike computers came along.

My wife and I often check the avg speed on our computer after our tandem rides. We can spend seemingly most of the ride pushing hard on the big chainring, sometimes in the low 20's mph, typically in the upper teens on any non-uphill stretch. At the end of the ride it reads 12.4. On a good day it might read 12.6. On a great day it might read 12.8. Too much walking the bike at lunch stops!

Before bike computers I used to use a Huret odometer on the front wheel and a digital watch and did the math in my head.

I couldn't do that while riding. When I get tired, higher brain functions abandon me. You should have seen me at last year's TdC, trying to calculate how many more laps of the Speedway I needed to complete to get to my metric century. Then I realized my computer had a miles ridden function.

;)

Well done, Mikey. That's an excellent rate for a ride like that. Keep doing that kind of distance, push yourself a bit, and take recovery rides and days off. You can and will improve your avg. for that and similar rides..

Average speeds are fun to discuss but I wouldn't take them too seriously. The biggest factor which brings down average speed is the time spent averaging in zeros or very small numbers.

In the days before cycle computers, "average" speed was calculated exactly as its name implies - total distance divide by total elapsed time from start to finish. (Remember your physics classes?:)) Nowadays computers stop counting when you aren't moving, so your down time doesn't get included. It makes you feel better because the numbers look better. But even so they still count time spent walking the bike, slowing for intersections, etc. Spend much time doing that and your computed fake-average speed can fall significantly.

^ True dat. Wind and terrain play a big factor, and unless you are measuring power directly, ave spd is kinda useless, except for you over the same course over and over under similar conditions.

Further to your point above, even with the "auto pause below x mph," all cyclo-computer I'm aware of report the arithmetic mean. It's the form of "average" that most of us are familiar with. But it is not the only way to compute an average, and certain averages are better reported as the median or modal average.

Having said that, I like RWGPS to upload my rides. One graph they have (FYI -it may be a premium acct only feature) is a speed histogram.

http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac46/handsonpromos/5-5-12chart.png

This type of graph shows your "modal" average speed, that is, the speed you spent the most time at. That is often more in line with our perception of what the average is.

On a ride with few stops or slow downs or hills, it may be the same or similar to the mean. On a very hilly ride, there may be a "bi-modal" curve, one that represents, most likely, your climb speed, and the other your descent speed. Perhaps there is even a third mode, your flats speed.

Wish I had a bi-modal graph to show, but here in flat FLA, not much chance...

Further to your point above, even with the "auto pause below x mph," all cyclo-computer I'm aware of report the arithmetic mean.
Arithmetic mean, really? Computed from what, equal time samples or equal distance samples? The latter should be okay, I think. The former would under-weight time spent going fast because you'd be covering any given distance in less time.

I like the histogram idea.

Arithmetic mean, really? Computed from what, equal time samples or equal distance samples? The latter should be okay, I think. The former would under-weight time spent going fast because you'd be covering any given distance in less time.

I like the histogram idea.

I have no idea. That's a question for the computer mfgr.

That being said, my contact at RWGPS said it taken as a time slice and gps data. I don't see how that would create a bias as it is basically averaging the speed masurements taken at regular intervals. I would think equal distance would skew an arithmetic mean toward the high end, which would not be correct for that type of average measurement. That's what the modal average is for.

Averages are totally inaccurate in assessing your progress and condition. About 3wks ago I kept getting this 13.8mph average on a very uncanny frequent basis. I'm like, what's up with this. So what I set out to do was improve the bike by swapping lighter wheels/tires/brakesets and with the faster (but stiffer granny gear) freewheel. In doing this my riding has improved but what also made the difference is my being ticked off at the 13.8 showing up too often on my 10, 20 and 30mi courses. Now it's at 15.5mph. We'll see how many times that shows up.

ETA: my rides contain many hills and we have a constant 10-15mph minimum on wind speeds blowing here. When the wind steps up to 20-25 I hit the hills courses and stay off the open road.

Not as fast as yesterday, but fastest avg for the distance I did today. This morning I did 45 miles with an overall avg of 17.1mph. I'm still proud since around the 33 mile mark, I was near home and was seriously thinking of just doing the 35--I didn't feel I had it in me. Instead I told myself to suck it up and pushed myself to do 45. I ate two breakfast bars, one at the 20 mile mark and the other at the 30 mile mark as well as consumed 22oz of water in total between the two snacks(drank at each snack time).

I understand that the avg can be influenced by many factors and unless you have controlled conditions that are the same each and every time, the avg needs to be taken with a large grain(or sack) of salt. The route I ride is the same but other factors influence what my avg or my speed at any time will be. I mentally take note of how the wind was and direction and other factors such as traffic(which is very light to nill where and when I ride), pedestrians, slow downs for safety, etc. But, I still can use the overall avg as a VERY general guide of my improvement.

Averages are totally inaccurate in assessing your progress and condition. About 3wks ago I kept getting this 13.8mph average on a very uncanny frequent basis. I'm like, what's up with this. So what I set out to do was improve the bike by swapping lighter wheels/tires/brakesets and with the faster (but stiffer granny gear) freewheel. In doing this my riding has improved but what also made the difference is my being ticked off at the 13.8 showing up too often on my 10, 20 and 30mi courses. Now it's at 15.5mph. We'll see how many times that shows up.

ETA: my rides contain many hills and we have a constant 10-15mph minimum on wind speeds blowing here. When the wind steps up to 20-25 I hit the hills courses and stay off the open road.

So did the bike changes or your attitude change bring about the improvement? Or some other outside influence? In reality, the point is the average DOES matter in this case since it motivated you to do something.

INSANITY (n) in san it ee (def.) Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

So did the bike changes or your attitude change bring about the improvement? Or some other outside influence? In reality, the point is the average DOES matter in this case since it motivated you to do something.

INSANITY (n) in san it ee (def.) Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.I have 3 TT routes I like to ride to gauge my success and it seems that is more accurate to assess my progress over the past couple of years. The avg function really isnt telling me anything in "real time".

You are right about the attitude, I cranked up the desire with the conditioning so whatever I gain in strength over the past week I immediately apply to the max on the next ride. As for the bike helping that, yeah baby that works. Love the feel of the new rims and tires. The rolling resistance is greatly improved over the old tires.

I check the cyclocomputer every once in a while and it helps me push myself--like riding against a better rider.

I also feel good about my improvement as I'm using clips and straps, not clipless.
I agree with you.....the computer helps push and challenges you to ride harder. Since 98% of my rides are solo, using the bike computer provides a reference to how I'm progressing, or not. I think it adds to the enjoyment of the ride too.

On my 25 mile loop, there are two lines marking an 1/8 mile drag strip. I like to push myself through that 1/8 mile to see how fast I can ride. Without the computer, I wouldn't know how bad I really suck at this sport.

As for the difference between clipless and straps. I have both, clipless on the road bike and straps on the heavy commuter. For me, I can ride both bikes at close to the same speed. Which means most of the difference, or limitations, is not the equipment, but me. I figured that, until the engine is strong enough, improvement to the equipment won't provide a significant advantage.

However, using clipless, I feel more connected while spinning on the bike.

INSANITY (n) in san it ee (def.) Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
Yup, that explains why my riding still sucks and I'm not getting faster.

Hat's off to everyone who's increased their performance. Exerting more effort and suffering through the pain is not easy, especially at our age.

I have 3 TT routes I like to ride to gauge my success and it seems that is more accurate to assess my progress over the past couple of years. The avg function really isnt telling me anything in "real time".

You are right about the attitude, I cranked up the desire with the conditioning so whatever I gain in strength over the past week I immediately apply to the max on the next ride. As for the bike helping that, yeah baby that works. Love the feel of the new rims and tires. The rolling resistance is greatly improved over the old tires.

Now that is the best way to measure progress. I never intentionally did this, but I have ridden the same route on tues and thurs for a few years. I think RWGPS lets you define a segement and then have it scan your rides (and others that do the same segment) and give you compairsons and rankings. I'll have to give that "a tri" Thanks for the idea!

^ True dat. Wind and terrain play a big factor, and unless you are measuring power directly, ave spd is kinda useless, except for you over the same course over and over under similar conditions.

Further to your point above, even with the "auto pause below x mph," all cyclo-computer I'm aware of report the arithmetic mean. It's the form of "average" that most of us are familiar with. But it is not the only way to compute an average, and certain averages are better reported as the median or modal average.

Having said that, I like RWGPS to upload my rides. One graph they have (FYI -it may be a premium acct only feature) is a speed histogram.

http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac46/handsonpromos/5-5-12chart.png

This type of graph shows your "modal" average speed, that is, the speed you spent the most time at. That is often more in line with our perception of what the average is.

On a ride with few stops or slow downs or hills, it may be the same or similar to the mean. On a very hilly ride, there may be a "bi-modal" curve, one that represents, most likely, your climb speed, and the other your descent speed. Perhaps there is even a third mode, your flats speed.

Wish I had a bi-modal graph to show, but here in flat FLA, not much chance...

The chart shows up on each recorded trip, paid member or not. It's always interesting to check out.

That's a fast ride. Florida? Oh, that's why you didn't need to show the bottom half of the chart, the average grade at each speed!

Here's a totally different ride I did last year. 4.3 miles, average speed of 7.4 mph (having to brake most of the way down--grrr). Check out the hill--pull down the Map menu at the top right, and click Terrain.
http://ridewithgps.com/trips/196964

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-483Fl0JI4tc/TYvfcbUOzfI/AAAAAAAADnw/NVJbdAfElEM/s739/Pilot%2520Mountain%2520time%2520spent.jpg

OLDER I get, the less speed as a bragging topic, means. :50:

sometimes I stop at the top of a hill and admire the view from up there.

I agree with you.....the computer helps push and challenges you to ride harder. Since 98% of my rides are solo, using the bike computer provides a reference to how I'm progressing, or not. I think it adds to the enjoyment of the ride too.

On my 25 mile loop, there are two lines marking an 1/8 mile drag strip. I like to push myself through that 1/8 mile to see how fast I can ride. Without the computer, I wouldn't know how bad I really suck at this sport.

As for the difference between clipless and straps. I have both, clipless on the road bike and straps on the heavy commuter. For me, I can ride both bikes at close to the same speed. Which means most of the difference, or limitations, is not the equipment, but me. I figured that, until the engine is strong enough, improvement to the equipment won't provide a significant advantage.

However, using clipless, I feel more connected while spinning on the bike.

1/8 mi might be a bit long, but 30 second wind sprints are the best way to build speed and endurance quickly. If you don't believe me, make a point of doing 3, 4, or 5 x 30 second all out sprints on each ride for the next 3 months. It will be best if you only do a 30 second rest between sprints on a ride. Try to ride 3 x per week. By the end of summer you will be amazed at your improvement.

The chart shows up on each recorded trip, paid member or not.

That's a fast ride. Florida? Oh, that's why you didn't show the bottom half of the chart, the average grade at each speed!

Here's a totally different ride I did last year. 4.3 miles, average speed of 7.4 mph (having to brake most of the way down--grrr). Check out the hill--pull down the Map menu at the top right, and click Terrain.
http://ridewithgps.com/trips/196964

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-483Fl0JI4tc/TYvfcbUOzfI/AAAAAAAADnw/NVJbdAfElEM/s739/Pilot%2520Mountain%2520time%2520spent.jpg

You are right. That bottom graph on my ride is pretty useless. It's pretty flat.

http://ridewithgps.com/trips/628714 (http://ridewithgps.com/trips/628714)

The elevation graph looks far worse than it is. There is only 62' of difference between the lowest point and the highest, and that's on a 60 mi ride!

Now your elevation graph looks like Mt. Haleakala on Maui.

http://ridewithgps.com/routes/28781 :eek:

But it is 35 mi up at a pretty constant 5% grade from sea level to 10,000 ft. I didn't ride up, but I did ride down!

1/8 mi might be a bit long, but 30 second wind sprints are the best way to build speed and endurance quickly. If you don't believe me, make a point of doing 3, 4, or 5 x 30 second all out sprints on each ride for the next 3 months. It will be best if you only do a 30 second rest between sprints on a ride. Try to ride 3 x per week. By the end of summer you will be amazed at your improvement.
Looking at your graph, I believe you.

We are miles apart, or 4 mph's apart, to be exactly. On normal rides, I spend more time spinning at 17-18mph. if doing these wind sprints would help me average 22mph, I'd be a happy cyclist.

Thanks for the tip! :thumb:

Now that is the best way to measure progress. I never intentionally did this, but I have ridden the same route on tues and thurs for a few years. I think RWGPS lets you define a segement and then have it scan your rides (and others that do the same segment) and give you compairsons and rankings. I'll have to give that "a tri" Thanks for the idea!Go get 'em :D

Looking at your graph, I believe you.

We are miles apart, or 4 mph's apart, to be exactly. On normal rides, I spend more time spinning at 17-18mph. if doing these wind sprints would help me average 22mph, I'd be a happy cyclist.

Thanks for the tip! :thumb:

Not so much I suspect.

In the interest of full disclosure, that ride was a club ride with about 12 other riders. I did my share of pulling, but I probably only spent about 5 mi at the front.

If I were to do a solo 60 mi ride, I would probably be right in your neighborhood overall.

None the less, a program of regular wind sprints will make a big difference. Of course if you are an elite rider already, well, not so much...

That being said, my contact at RWGPS said it taken as a time slice and gps data. I don't see how that would create a bias as it is basically averaging the speed masurements taken at regular intervals.

You are absolutely right, of course. I was thinking about it backward. For a fixed time interval you'd get a greater distance, and the speed is just that distance divided by a constant (i.e. the time interval). Adding them all up simply adds the distances, which is just a fancy way of saying that algebraically it produces exactly the same thing as total distance divided by total elapsed time.

I've been doing windsprints on hills. The hills are steep and 1.5-2.0 miles in length and I try to go up faster each time. After this talk of windsprint intervals I'm going to give this more emphasis on the flats.

Again, beat my best overall avg today. 35.54 miles in 1 hour 48 min 41 secs. Cyclocomputer stated the overall average as 17.9 mph, but if you do the math, it's 17.967 mph--if I wanted to fudge, I could round up and say 18 mph avg, but I want to be honest with myself and everyone else.

Again, beat my best overall avg today. 35.54 miles in 1 hour 48 min 41 secs. Cyclocomputer stated the overall average as 17.9 mph, but if you do the math, it's 17.967 mph--if I wanted to fudge, I could round up and say 18 mph avg, but I want to be honest with myself and everyone else.That's moving right along. Do you have hills in that route? Headwind?

Not hills like some, but there are some. I do the same route every time and about a month or so ago I changed the route a bit to encounter more climbing(again, not like some here deal with). Today there was a good crosswind and headwind for most of the ride. The tailwind assisted with very little of the ride.

The bike has an under the seat Topeak wedge with a multi-tool, spare tube and a few other things. The bike also has a MagicShine 808e with battery and Topeak Road Morph pump. I use toe clips with straps, not clipless--feel good peddling all that mass and on Gatorskin 23s(which I remember someone posting roll like crap).

Almost always between 13 and 14, just the way it is.