Living Car Free - fyi: the high cost of free parking

here's a link to Donald Shoup's paper, the high cost of free parking

http://www.uctc.net/papers/351.pdf

here's a link to Donald Shoup's paper, the high cost of free parking

http://www.uctc.net/papers/351.pdf

Yeah,

Free Parking is kind an elephant in the room that no one even recognizes much less talks about.

here's a link to Donald Shoup's paper, the high cost of free parking

http://www.uctc.net/papers/351.pdf

1997 paper, but still relevant. Just increase the cost per space figures sunstantially and you'll be updated.

Mr. Shoup expanded upon this article and in 2005 released a full-length book under the same title, available from at least one of the more popular online booksellers. It's a great read for planners, civic advocates, or people who want to learn more about the devastating negative impact subsidized parking is having on our communities.

It has been a long time since I've read his work, but one of my take-aways was that most communities set minimum parking requirements (i.e. you must provide 50 parking spaces for every 1,000 sq/ft retail space) for new developments which lead to large asphalt oceans of parking that sits unused for most of the year. it leads to increased rainwater run-off, inefficient use of land and indirectly and negatively impacts pedestrian and bicycling connections by increasing the distance between retailers / office buildings / multi-use residences unnecessarily.

most planners are now of the belief that minimum parking requirements should be set by the free market (a developer will make sure his customers will be able to park, but is very sensitive to wasteful spending and won't create so much that most go un-used throughout the year) and the local planning departments should instead set maximum parking limits (for example no more than 10 per 1,000 sq/ft of space).

During the National Bike Summit a year ago, my Senator told us that as long as there are available parking spaces, people are going to drive to downtown Little Rock rather than choose alternative transportation.

Is there any conceivable way to make business leaders want more expensive parking?

(I'm thinking of Artkansas's comment in another thread that you need to see things from your opponent's viewpoint, and figure out how they will benefit from the changes you want.)

Is there any conceivable way to make business leaders want more expensive parking?


Give them a cut of the revenues.

I wonder too. The big town just south of me built a new fancy pants $6.1 million 284 space parking garage...downtown. The mall (where all the big downtown stores relocated to some 37 years ago) has acres and acres of "free" parking. To add insult to injury due to some political shenanigans they paid farm rate taxes on it for the first 25 years. :rolleyes: Until zoning boards put a stop to nonstop uncontrolled sprawl it is going to continue.

Aaron :)

It used to be cheap buying in the shopping centers out in the burbs. Not anymore. The shopping malls are expensive and you have to believe all that parking and taxes are hitting the consumer. I would rather do my shopping on Amazon than go out of my way to one of those fancy malls. There's no question, the internet gives the biggest bargain.

It used to be cheap buying in the shopping centers out in the burbs. Not anymore. The shopping malls are expensive and you have to believe all that parking and taxes are hitting the consumer. I would rather do my shopping on Amazon than go out of my way to one of those fancy malls. There's no question, the internet gives the biggest bargain.

I have been ordering all sorts of thing online...everytime I hit one of the local stores they seem to have quit stocking something I used to buy regularly. I just ordered $60 worth of Altoids and some Chi-Chi's Fiesta Seasoning mix. Both are no longer stocked in any of my local stores.

Aaron :)

Is there any conceivable way to make business leaders want more expensive parking?technically there are ways (maximum parking requirements via zoning in the suburbs, for example) but they are almost all suicide politically. Making it more difficult to park at parking meters in the city by increasing rates or reducing the parking duration helps. again, unpopular.

i think the suburban thing is going to work itself out in time, although in a way that leaves those communities decimated. But since they traditionally aren't founded on any basis of culture and have little architectural or historical value, i won't lose sleep. people are slowly losing disposable income. whether driving less or not at all is the first thing to go or last, eventually people won't be able to drive to suburban mega malls and spend money there.

proactively, i think it helps each time one of us rides our bike to the grocery store, hardware store, to pickup a keg for a party, to the ballgame, etc. over time if more and more parking spaces set empty, or if demand is low and thus the economic return for each parking spot diminishes, developers will start building fewer. riding the bus and walking when possible are also good means to accomplish the same ends.

I wonder too. The big town just south of me built a new fancy pants $6.1 million 284 space parking garage...downtown. The mall (where all the big downtown stores relocated to some 37 years ago) has acres and acres of "free" parking. To add insult to injury due to some political shenanigans they paid farm rate taxes on it for the first 25 years. :rolleyes: Until zoning boards put a stop to nonstop uncontrolled sprawl it is going to continue.

Aaron :)

In the downtown of our little city they built a big parking garage a few years ago. I forget how much they spent for it or how many parking spaces are in it, but my SO and I did a back-of-the-envelope calulation and it came out to something like $17,000 per parking space. I don't know what they charge for parking in there. I walk or ride my bike to downtown on the rare occasion that I need to go there.

One of my favorite lines from the Parking Lot Movie from John Lindaman (http://ridesolutions.wordpress.com/2011/03/16/wisdom-from-the-parking-lot-movie/).

On cars getting bigger and the prevalence of SUVs at The Corner Parking Lot:

“And so there was just no room for them. I’d say, ‘I’m sorry, there’s just no room for you to park your car in this lot. Maybe you can find room to park on the street. But I doubt it.’ It’s like you could almost see the truncated syllogism in their head. Like, I bought the car, how could there not be a place to park it? Surely it comes with a parking space.”

- John Lindaman, The Parking Lot Movie.

It's a great read for planners, civic advocates, or people who want to learn more about the devastating negative impact subsidized parking is having on our communities.

In our city, there was a proposal before the city council to build a streetcar system from the near southside to downtown to the uptown area just north of downtown. The Upton and Near Southside TIF (tax increment financing) districts, along with some federal money, would have paid for the construction and rolling stock. All they asked from the downtown interests was approval of the project; they didn't want any of their TIF money. The vote was held when two members of the city council (who were streetcar supporters) would be out of town and couldn't change their plans. The approval fell one vote short and they gave the seed money back to the feds.

What does the Downtown TIF money go toward, you might ask? Well, they subsidize parking downtown, of course.

In the downtown of our little city they built a big parking garage a few years ago. I forget how much they spent for it or how many parking spaces are in it, but my SO and I did a back-of-the-envelope calulation and it came out to something like $17,000 per parking space. I don't know what they charge for parking in there. I walk or ride my bike to downtown on the rare occasion that I need to go there.


The one down here was over $20,000 per space. IIRC you can rent one by the month for something like $40...gonna be a looooong payback, and that doesn't take into consideration of maintenance or operating expenses.

Aaron :)

The one down here was over $20,000 per space. IIRC you can rent one by the month for something like $40...gonna be a looooong payback, and that doesn't take into consideration of maintenance or operating expenses.

Aaron :)

Kind of like paying back a $200k house at $400 a month. You'll never pay it off.

I wish I could rent a parking space for $40 per month. I would ask the owner if I could build a little shed to take up the whole space. If I got approval I would just move in. I could tote water to the place and get a tiny generator for electricity if it were an indoor parking space. If it were an outdoor space I'd get solar panels and put them on the roof.

If they didn't allow the shed then I could purchase a work van and live in the big box. Of course I could do that now on the streets but I'd have to move it all the time. With my own rented space I could stay as long as the rent was paid.

So many things about parking tick me off. donald Shoup is like a god to me! His was the first and for a while the only voice agaiinst "free" parking in academic circles.

Here in Michigan, state and local governments will do almost anything to retain employers or attract new ones. One big development for an insurance company involved the city and state giving them huge tax credits for building the parking structure. They also altered the master plan so thet the ugly behemoth could be built right on the riverftont--which is easily the most attractive feature of the city. I think that when governments subsidize "free" parking, they should stipulate that the company must build the facility to half the size they want, and provide incentives to employees to find some other way to get to work that doesn't involve parking a car right next to their office.

There are some issues with alternative transportation in some areas... Like mine. My son lives in Boston and gets a transit pass as part of his salary, if he drove he would have to pay substantial money for parking. In the larger town near me mass transit is a joke, it doesn't really go to or from anywhere and doesn't run when people need it if you have any sort of shift job. If I happened to have a job downtown and the company had to pay for my parking it would cost them a whopping $40 a month. Until the taxpayers revolt and make local governments stop subsidizing free/low cost parking it will continue, uphill battle IMHO.

Aaron :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Xg8h9kPfaQ

so much of this is a major bummer.

here's some recent news: http://www.bikerumor.com/2012/06/12/us-house-threatens-bicycle-walking-path-funding/

I wonder too. The big town just south of me built a new fancy pants $6.1 million 284 space parking garage...downtown. The mall (where all the big downtown stores relocated to some 37 years ago) has acres and acres of "free" parking. To add insult to injury due to some political shenanigans they paid farm rate taxes on it for the first 25 years. :rolleyes: Until zoning boards put a stop to nonstop uncontrolled sprawl it is going to continue.

Aaron :)

Retailers want more rather than less because they fear customers will go elsewhere if coming to the retailer is inconvenient. Walgreens drug store for example will not locate in most places unless they can build their 14,000 square foot building and have parking to their specs - which is typically used at about a 20% occupancy rate.

Politicos are also fearful of killing business with too little parking. However, they don't seem to understand that all that on-street parking is paid for (therefore subsidized) by the public who may not ever use it - ever.

Retailers want more rather than less because they fear customers will go elsewhere if coming to the retailer is inconvenient. Walgreens drug store for example will not locate in most places unless they can build their 14,000 square foot building and have parking to their specs - which is typically used at about a 20% occupancy rate.

Politicos are also fearful of killing business with too little parking. However, they don't seem to understand that all that on-street parking is paid for (therefore subsidized) by the public who may not ever use it - ever.

Yep, Not having a car is just not imaginable.

Retailers want more rather than less because they fear customers will go elsewhere if coming to the retailer is inconvenient. Walgreens drug store for example will not locate in most places unless they can build their 14,000 square foot building and have parking to their specs - which is typically used at about a 20% occupancy rate.

Politicos are also fearful of killing business with too little parking. However, they don't seem to understand that all that on-street parking is paid for (therefore subsidized) by the public who may not ever use it - ever.

Off street parking it subsidized too, as in reduced tax base and even more sprawl.

Aaron :)

its interesting:

just imagine if there were no places to park a bicycle?

I love these kind of things. When I first starting reading Donald Shoup, every where I went I looked at the infrastructure differently.
about 5 years ago I starting going back down to Ventura, Ca and LA to help with my family. I looked at infrastructure with a cynical eye. Later I'd read about things like Federal Aid Highway Act: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Aid_Highway_Act_of_1956

in SoCal, its just like the references point out, massive sprawl.
now being 43 years old, I'd think back to when I was about 8 to 14 years old, and I'd remember how my dad, as a union painter (housing tracts), made a minimum of $100/day when the house payment was $280/month.

i guess the point here, is that it really is amazing how federal monies can effect our lives.

just imagine if there were no places to park a bicycle?

It would be like some of the malls around here. The signs are mounted on top of concrete cylinders that are too small to perch a bike on top so you can lock to the sign post, but too big to lock your bike to the sign post if you can't perch it on top of the concrete and no other solid objects to lock a bike to. So I lock the bike to itself, as near to the door as I can.

It would be like some of the malls around here. The signs are mounted on top of concrete cylinders that are too small to perch a bike on top so you can lock to the sign post, but too big to lock your bike to the sign post if you can't perch it on top of the concrete and no other solid objects to lock a bike to. So I lock the bike to itself, as near to the door as I can.

You have more faith than I. I have two beaters and I don't trust them not attached to an immovable object, and that immovable object is becoming harder and harder to find. Bike parking is declining. More and more retailers around me have posted signs stating that you CAN'T park a bike there...

In most places I can find something to lock to, even if it wasn't designed for bike parking. I like the sign posts in parking lots. My favorite sign to lock my bike to is a cutesy one at the supermarket that says "Parking reserved for expectant mommies."
:)

Is there any conceivable way to make business leaders want more expensive parking?I don't know about more expensive parking, but around here they have been getting rid of on-street parking to drive business to the township garages. This means there is much less free after-hours on-street parking. They were talking about getting rid of parking along one side of the main drag and putting in a bus/bike lane, but I have seen no progress on that front. OTOH, they are talking about tearing down one of the garages and replacing it because it is getting old. Rather see businesses go in instead.

You have more faith than I. I have two beaters and I don't trust them not attached to an immovable object, and that immovable object is becoming harder and harder to find. Bike parking is declining. More and more retailers around me have posted signs stating that you CAN'T park a bike there...


Are those signs backed up by an city/county ordinance, or is it just store policies?

I don't know about more expensive parking, but around here they have been getting rid of on-street parking to drive business to the township garages. This means there is much less free after-hours on-street parking. They were talking about getting rid of parking along one side of the main drag and putting in a bus/bike lane, but I have seen no progress on that front. OTOH, they are talking about tearing down one of the garages and replacing it because it is getting old. Rather see businesses go in instead.

Well, then maybe you can have some affect there. Get in the loop and make your voice(s) heard.

Well, then maybe you can have some affect there. Get in the loop and make your voice(s) heard.

That's good advice. The squeaky wheel does get the grease... :)

Are those signs backed up by an city/county ordinance, or is it just store policies?

The signs don't look official, so I'd assume store policy.

The signs don't look official, so I'd assume store policy.



In that case, break out the U or cable lock, find the nearest sign post, tree, immovable object that's out to the way and closest to the store you'll be shopping at, and secure your bike to it.

In that case, break out the U or cable lock, find the nearest sign post, tree, immovable object that's out to the way and closest to the store you'll be shopping at, and secure your bike to it.

If you are on private property, they can make the rules as they choose. They don't need a county or city ordinance.

Though sometimes they get confused. I used to go to one Ralphs that had bicycle racks near one entrance. There were also signs at the entrance of the shopping center that forbade bicycles. Maybe that's why the bike store in that center went out of business. ;)

If you are on private property, they can make the rules as they choose. They don't need a county or city ordinance.

Though sometimes they get confused. I used to go to one Ralphs that had bicycle racks near one entrance. There were also signs at the entrance of the shopping center that forbade bicycles. Maybe that's why the bike store in that center went out of business. ;)


As they say, it's better to ask for forgiveness than permission.

There's a major food chain that I occasionally frequent that located their bike parking racks in an out of the way patio area that one has to slalom around fixed patio furniture in order to get to the bike rack. I emailed the home office of this food chain about possibly removing/relocating one piece of patio furniture, but no avail. Now I lock my bike to a nice sign post conveniently located close to the entrance, and I do the same at many local business regardless of what their bike parking policy is.

Is there any conceivable way to make business leaders want more expensive parking?

(I'm thinking of Artkansas's comment in another thread that you need to see things from your opponent's viewpoint, and figure out how they will benefit from the changes you want.)

No.

I live in a city that has seen a great suburban migration. More people live in the burbs now than the actual city. The city used to be a great commercial center, even after everyone moved to the suburbs, but over the years the city privatized all of the parking lots, who then raised prices astronomically. Subsequently the remaining commercial districts all but died off. The lesson learned here is that if customers don't have access to free parking, they will drive further away to someplace that does have free parking. As much as we might want them too, they simply are not going to one day decide to bike instead. It's human nature and capitalism, combined to make the most inefficient system possible, all while pretending it's the most efficient.

The city used to be a great commercial center, even after everyone moved to the suburbs, but over the years the city privatized all of the parking lots, who then raised prices astronomically. Subsequently the remaining commercial districts all but died off.

What happened to the parking lots after the commercial districts died?

In most places I can find something to lock to, even if it wasn't designed for bike parking. I like the sign posts in parking lots. My favorite sign to lock my bike to is a cutesy one at the supermarket that says "Parking reserved for expectant mommies."
:)


I was actually just telling a friend today how handicap parking was the best thing that ever happened to people who bike. The signs are always there and they're always close.

No.

I live in a city that has seen a great suburban migration. More people live in the burbs now than the actual city. The city used to be a great commercial center, even after everyone moved to the suburbs, but over the years the city privatized all of the parking lots, who then raised prices astronomically. Subsequently the remaining commercial districts all but died off. The lesson learned here is that if customers don't have access to free parking, they will drive further away to someplace that does have free parking. As much as we might want them too, they simply are not going to one day decide to bike instead. It's human nature and capitalism, combined to make the most inefficient system possible, all while pretending it's the most efficient.

It's even worse than that. Some indoor malls are going out of business because of competition from so-called "lifestyle shopping areas. The stores in these shopping centers have parking outside the door of each store, and the whole thing is disguised to look like an old fashioned Main Street. The rationale is that many shoppers feel that they have to do too much walking at an indoor shopping mall. They'd rather park right outside the store, then drive to the next store and repark!

The downtown of my city has metered perpendicular parking--a nightmare for cyclists riding downtown. I have been hit once by a shopper backing out of a spot, and many close calls.