Mountain Biking - Ditch the disc brakes?

I have been running disc brakes for a while and im building a new wheelset. I was looking at hubs and i noticed theres a lot more non disc hubs than disc hubs. It brought me to wonder, if i even need disc brakes. I don't ride a lot in snow, rain maybe but only if it catches me by surprise. I do all xc or road travel. CUrrently im running avid mechanicals with 6" rotors. If i switched to say, a high end avid V brake, would i notice a large decrease in power? and regret it?

You don't need discs. You won't regret it and you will likely save some weight. If I were in your shoes I wouldn't run discs.

Yea i was thinking about that. I mean disc hubs add weight, the hugi 240's for disc are 50 grams more than non disc or somehting like that. Its 100 somethoing for the rotor and the mechanicals are well over 300grams/piece.

If you ride XC changing to V's is the maddest thing ive heard in time. Unless your a hardcore racer V's are a total waste of time and money. The modulation is crap, power is crap, the pads will eat your rims. Do yourself a favour and get a set of Hope Mono Minis and relish in the joy they'll bring you everytime you ride your bike. Your brakes could save your life so why choose a crappy set of Vs? even the mechanical discs are better than v brakes so a decent set of Hopes will really blow your mind. Maelstrom mate i dont know what your on about saying he'll regret fitting a set hydro discs, do you actually ride off road? there's no comparison between Vs and hydros especially Mono Minis, so if i were you Phantom i would totally ignore the crazy advice maelstrom is spouting and get some proper brakes.

If you ride XC changing to V's is the maddest thing ive heard in time. Unless your a hardcore racer V's are a total waste of time and money. The modulation is crap, power is crap, the pads will eat your rims. Do yourself a favour and get a set of Hope Mono Minis and relish in the joy they'll bring you everytime you ride your bike. Your brakes could save your life so why choose a crappy set of Vs? even the mechanical discs are better than v brakes so a decent set of Hopes will really blow your mind. Maelstrom mate i dont know what your on about saying he'll regret fitting a set hydro discs, do you actually ride off road? there's no comparison between Vs and hydros especially Mono Minis, so if i were you Phantom i would totally ignore the crazy advice maelstrom is spouting and get some proper brakes.

First of all, the guy is running a set of Avid mechanical disc brakes. Although they work nearly as well as some hydros, they are not hydros.

Second of all, I do not believe anyone really needs disc brakes. I consider myself to be a pretty hardcore rider, and I believe my Avid SD 7s provide more than enough power for my purposes. Yes V-brakes are not as good as disc brakes, but they still do the trick for most people.

In his case, unless he's a real weight weenie, I probably would keep the disc brakes simply because the discs will be somewhat stronger than V-brakes. Switching from disc brake setup to a V-brake setup probably means 3/4 - 1 pound of weight difference. Do you really think the extra pound slows you down that much???

If you ride XC changing to V's is the maddest thing ive heard in time. Unless your a hardcore racer V's are a total waste of time and money. The modulation is crap, power is crap, the pads will eat your rims. Do yourself a favour and get a set of Hope Mono Minis and relish in the joy they'll bring you everytime you ride your bike. Your brakes could save your life so why choose a crappy set of Vs? even the mechanical discs are better than v brakes so a decent set of Hopes will really blow your mind. Maelstrom mate i dont know what your on about saying he'll regret fitting a set hydro discs, do you actually ride off road? there's no comparison between Vs and hydros especially Mono Minis, so if i were you Phantom i would totally ignore the crazy advice maelstrom is spouting and get some proper brakes.

Hahaha...no I don't ride off road at all. I don't know anything about anything. Nope not me.

Not even going to justify defending my response as it is correct. Disc brakes are new to the world of mountain biking, are you saying all of the pros in previous DECADES couldn't come to a stop? Crappy v's...my question to you is even easier, have you even used a set? For normal xc and a light weight rider, you sure as heck don't need the power of discs (although, it is nice sometimes). Lets relate this to an f1 vs a ford topaz. You can use f1 brakes on a topaz, they will work (assuming they fit) but they sure aren't needed. (heck at that point drum brakes can still 'work')

Oh and another note...I didn't say v's offered the same power...I said he doesn't need the power...if you think a light person needs the power of disc brakes on standard xc without adverse weather, you need to rethink the way you ride, because...YOU ARE WRONG!!!!

And as a side note...I ride dh and fr on mountains bigger than anything you have in the UK...I actually USE my hydros to their fullest...do you really? Honestly...or are you kidding yourself? Have you experienced brake fade from 30 min dh runs when NOT using the brakes often? Have you found long enough sections where hydro 8in brakes fail because of how long it is and you can't release the brake?...before you insult someone or question someones opinion you had better learn something about them. I know my skills are high enough where on a xc bike in bc with the same kind of rain you get AND more terrain I could use v's just fine on the xc trails (heck my gf does .... )...

Oh well I justified my statement. I am just not used to reading pure ignorant opinions based on magazine write-ups with what seems like little real world knowledge.

If you do it, add $15 and buy a softer pad for the front.
Most stock pads are high carbon and only o.k IMO for the rear slowing.

I use V-s on my XC\road\trail mtb. Light bike and rider, works fine.

More aggresive bike I'm building, a disc front, V-s rear.

If your fork has canti bosses..???? Why not.

I'd say you will regret it after running discs and then switching back to V's. I would never go back to V's after running the Avid mechs. In my experience, they just plain stop better in ALL conditions, v-brakes suck in the wet/snow/slush in comparison. I ride XC, nothing extreme but the discs are much more reliable for descending and quick stops when needed.

You will notice a difference in braking power. I have a great v-brake setup (xtr on ceramic rims) on one bike and Avid mechanicals on another. Huge difference. Less fade, stonger brake, just better all around with the discs. I've always been an xc guy and thought discs where just for the gravity guys, then I actually rode discs and from this day forward any mtb I get will have disc brakes. Better brakes make a faster rider.

Quote from Mealstrom

'Have you experienced brake fade from 30 min dh runs when NOT using the brakes often? Have you found long enough sections where hydro 8in brakes fail because of how long it is and you can't release the brake?...'


No :D

I say just keep the discs to save some cash and on your next bike (I'm sure you'll buy another one :D) switch back to V's to save even more cash.

Do you weigh a lot?

I'd say stick with the disc brake... i doubt very much if you'd see the weight difference while riding anyway (not that much anyway) I doubt if i would, save the money, and spend it on something else :)

I should point out I didn't give an opinion if he should switch. Just an opinion based on performance of his style of riding. Personally swifferman has the same idea I would do. Wait to buy a new bike and then switch everything up :D...

discs are only useful for the contitions you specifically said you dont ride in.(Snow, rain, steeps, etc...) go with vees. they are lighter and require less maintince.

Discs all the way! I'll never go back.

I dunno, i dont ride in snow, unless its on the road. The things disc brakes have for an advantage are the situations i dont see. I think the verdict is V brakes, sure some people say they suck but you know they've been around more than disc brakes and people stopped then.

any which way, disc brakes just look way cooler!!

V-brakes are all you need. I have never had a problem locking up either wheel with v-brakes. Disc brakes are for wet conditions or for people that need them to boost their ego. I also have never ruined a rim with vs. The side walls out last the wheels.

any which way, disc brakes just look way cooler!!

Wrong discs look like junk. I like a clean bike and discs just add to the mess.

Even in perfect conditions, rim brakes are at best short lived. I ran Canti and V all the way up to my 5th race season before biting the bullet. The thing that I cannot get over is how much more controlled the discs are. Vs are prone to wheel lockup which can be hazardous and in general is bad anyway. The pads cost roughly similar(at least for good V pads) but last 1/4 as long. Then there is the afore mentioned point that the rim surface will wear out, at very least it will need continual cleaning from worn pad material.
I should also add that using Vs in most races aggravated my carpal-tunnel wrist problems(yes I got that at 16yrs) due to more mechanical force needed, once dirty or a little wet.
From a mechanic as well as racer standpoint, discs are so much more sensible.

As a mechanic discs are more sensible? How is that?

i dont think they are sensible, you need to remember i didnt start this as a disc vs V brake thread. More than half of my cycling is done on the road, you dont see my roadies using disc brakes

i dont think they are sensible, you need to remember i didnt start this as a disc vs V brake thread. More than half of my cycling is done on the road, you dont see my roadies using disc brakes

You never will. Discs lock up easier than V and caliper. Calipers are the best brakes for bikes. They would be great off road if it weren't for clearence problems.

When I say sensible, look at hours spent maintaining. How much, all other things equal, do you spend in working on removing cooked on junk from the rim surfaces vs how much you spend keeping a disc going?

From an operation standpoint, if I had the option, I would have discs on the roadie no question about it. The brakes on it are up to spec, but I still do not trust them fully for high speed control and long hill grip(I have had rim brakes fade several times, not fun)

When I say sensible, look at hours spent maintaining. How much, all other things equal, do you spend in working on removing cooked on junk from the rim surfaces vs how much you spend keeping a disc going?

From an operation standpoint, if I had the option, I would have discs on the roadie no question about it. The brakes on it are up to spec, but I still do not trust them fully for high speed control and long hill grip(I have had rim brakes fade several times, not fun)

Yeah, wiping those rims off with a damp cloth takes forever.

Why can't you have discs on a road bike? Can you not build your own wheels. Is it because you would have to use a flat bar?

Because to do so on my current student budget and means would require custom producing mounts on my frame(not impossible, just not practical for me at the moment).

What is this about a flat bar?

I should point out I didn't give an opinion if he should switch. Just an opinion based on performance of his style of riding. Personally swifferman has the same idea I would do. Wait to buy a new bike and then switch everything up :D...

hurrah for dual pwnage

Flat bars are basically mtb bars and drop bars are the ones with curved hadnels pointing down on road bikes.

I think it has something to do with weight on road bikes maybe.

I know what they ARE, but what is the slight of hand that I am not seeing?

I think he's hes trying to say that you would need a flatbar for discs brakes since they dont make road brake levers in hydro.

A little custom work, no big. lol. Honestly, I would just get the road mechs instead. The conditions are not as demanding of them as a trail race would be.

You never will. Discs lock up easier than V and caliper. Calipers are the best brakes for bikes. They would be great off road if it weren't for clearence problems.

Then how come companies are switching to discs Mr. I'm too caught up in the purple annodized craze from the late 80's to early 90's to notice that the industry has evolved rapidly.

It's a rider's choice to select between discs and V's. It also depends on the person's budget and intentions for the bike. I can see a person using vee's where it is flat and/or the rider is very light and does not need the power of discs. But if you are average weight and live in a hilly region, disc brakes are the way to go. Ironically disc brakes are the only way to go if you have a bike that won't accept v's. Me, another Downhiller and Freerider, V's would be suicide, and very costly. I don't want to change rims every two/three weeks because the pads wore through the rims at those speeds.

I'm also an urban rider, discs allow for more tire clearance.

V-brakes are all you need. I have never had a problem locking up either wheel with v-brakes. Disc brakes are for wet conditions or for people that need them to boost their ego. I also have never ruined a rim with vs. The side walls out last the wheels.V brakes work for me. On my commuter. On my Trail bike I run a set of Avid Mechanicals. I don't know what kind of riding you do, but I have seen MTB rims come in that have had to be retired due to having their sidewalls worn concave so this generalizatiion that the wheel will be destroyed by another means before the sidewalls are worn out is largely incorrect.

Wrong discs look like junk. I like a clean bike and discs just add to the mess.Your preference. Personally I think mine are (to quote a rather obese Austin Powers character ) Dead Sexy. http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/5154/RaiynRockhopper6.jpg

You never will. Discs lock up easier than V and caliper. Calipers are the best brakes for bikes. They would be great off road if it weren't for clearence problems.
The only reason you may never see disc brakes on a road race bike (notice the word may) is due to the weight penalty.

Why are discs better than rim brakes?

The difference is friction. Friction is of course the force acting against the momentum. Friction under all circumstances will be greater in a disc system than a rim system. Not even ceramic rims and their pads can compare to the sustainable friction of a disc system. Not to mention the effects of inclement conditions on rim brakes.

Let's start by taking a look at the physics involved. There's a law of physics that states how an object in motion has a certain amount of energy due to its momentum. This energy is called kinetic energy. In order for this object in motion to stop or slow down, it must lose some or all of its kinetic energy. It does this by converting the kinetic energy to heat.

It's pretty simple. At your wheel you have a metal disc and a set of friction pads. The pads squeeze or push onto the metal. When this happens, you create friction. Friction generates heat, of course. Since the wheel is turning, then the kinetic energy of your momentum is converted to heat at this point and discharged harmlessly into the atmosphere (with a slight loss of pad material), and your bike slows down. The faster it is going, the more heat is needed to stop it. The more pressure you apply to the pads, the faster it can discharge the kinetic energy. The disc aids in the discharge of the heat generated. The surface area of the rotor allows heat to dissipate more quickly.
Rim brakes work well, but they have a hard time shedding heat well enough to prevent fade when used really hard. Brake fade occurs when the brake overheats dramatically; braking power is vastly reduced. The fact that rubber compound rim brake pads can only sustain so much heat and pressure before they break loose is another key point as is the fact that disc pads, being made of a more durable substance, are not prone to the same failures.
Facts
Disc brakes handle heat load and dissipation better than calipers.
They don't transfer the heat generated directly to the rim, like calipers.
Disc rotors are MUCH cheaper to replace than an entire rim (as low as $15). As far as being able to lock a wheel: yes you can lock a wheel much easier with a disc than you can a caliper of any type, however if your brakes are PROPERLY setup, you also have greater modulation with less effort than any caliper system ever invented.

Do I have V brakes on my road only commuter? Yes, due in no small part, to the fact that both my frame and fork are not disc compatible. As I plan on eventually (after my shock upgrade on the trail bike) swapping out the fork on my commuter for a rigid model that has disc tabs I will not be without the added all conditions stopping power of discs for much longer. It is also possible that I may even just get a fork with V-brake bosses as the current setup is adequate for most everything I encounter while commuting in Florida, but it's funny how things can change.

side note: Watch out roadies there's rumors of a composite / ceramic rotor in the works with a new ultra light caliper.

Watch out roadies there's rumors of a composite / ceramic rotor in the works with a new ultra light caliper. [/color]

im no roadie but that sounds quite interesting. would a ceramic rotor really be strong enough?

im no roadie but that sounds quite interesting. would a ceramic rotor really be strong enough?
They've used ceramics in many different applications over the years from jet turbine fan blades to armor systems. Hell I even had a knife that had a ceramic blade on it. Trust me it can be done.

I don't ride down hill. I am talking about mountain biking. You know where you have to pedal as much as you have to brake. I think some of the problem is that new riders ride the brakes all the time. I have been MTBing for 17 years and have never worn a rim out with Vs. I actually have a couple of old wheels sitting in my shop that are 11-12 years old and still have life in them. One set has went through 20+ pad changes. Now I do go through pads especially on one local trail when wet/raining. I keep reading modulation, modulation. I ride different. I am using them hard or not using them at all. I agree if you got the pad always scraping the surface of the rim you can wear something out. But that is just rider error. Basically riders need to learn how to use their brakes.

You will never see them in the Tour.

But that is just rider error. Basically riders need to learn how to use their brakes.
Ever read Mountain Bike Action? The are constantly saying how heavy braking, 'on-off' braking is bad technique and anything that would cause a skid other than in a race is bad. Modulation is good. Control.


You will never see them in the Tour.

Ever notice what you DON'T find in a tour? It wasn't until a few short years ago you would find helmets in the tour. TdF(or any UCI controlled even) is no reference for technology in my book other than bike wieghts.

No I don't read Mountain Bike Action. How is it bad when training but good while racing? Do you really need a magazine to tell you how to brake? I don't lock up my wheels unless going around a tight turn. But I do use the brakes when I need them and stay off when I don't. I see it all the time riders keep the brake levers half open and brakes rubbing all the time. I call that bad rider skill. Modulation is usless unless you are riding down hill.

I don't know how it is in racing, but when I had my V-brakes, on some of the downhills on road I've seen around San Jose, I had both my front and rear pads practically burning after the descent. You could smell the plastic for hours after....god it stunk.

BTW, the v-brake arms were hot to the touch when that descent was done. Since then I've loved my discs...far, far better heat dissipation.

I would love to see copper alloys find their way into disc brakes though...since copper is better at heat dissispation.

Would engineering a thin carbon road fork for a disc mount be feasible? What if we all switch to fixed gear and then we won't need brakes.

Only problem with copper would be during a crash situation. They would bend like butta, I already go through a rotor a year, I can't imagine crashing using an oversized penny for stopping.

I don't have any issues with current heat on the rotor, my problem is when the oil in the line heats up rendering the brake useless :)

BBarend, my freewheel broke one time on a dh run. This meant essentially I was fixed. Worst experience of my life, at least in a dh bike :)

Guys remember the original posts. This isn't a question as to what system provides better braking force or modulation but rather the application of the system to the specific rider.

I'm with Mael on this one. You don't "need" discs for the type of riding you stated that you do. You'll save weight which is more advantageous to you and under the conditions that you ride, the linear pull (V's) will work just fine.

I don't need discs. Honestly, I don't. I however would not ever give them up. I like the feel, I ride in muddy conditions, I love to get rained on. I like riding drops and chutes. My descents are short, but steep. I like being able to ride home on a tacoed wheel banged almost straight. For ME, I'll ride discs.

For what you've described, save your money and get a set of good linear pulls and some better pads (as referenced early on).

I don't ride down hill. I am talking about mountain biking. . I keep reading modulation, modulation. I ride different. I am using them hard or not using them at all.

You will never see them in the Tour.

LOL!

that should be enough to keep us from wasting ourr time on this guy.

By the way, they are not going to be in the Tour (anytime soon anyways) only because they are not permitted by the UCI. They have also been banned from ''Cross.

I dunno, i dont ride in snow, unless its on the road. The things disc brakes have for an advantage are the situations i dont see. I think the verdict is V brakes, sure some people say they suck but you know they've been around more than disc brakes and people stopped then.

There are more advantages to discs than just the ability to stop well in in wet/muddy/snowy conditions. Really, the ONLY disadvantage to discs are the little bit of extra weight. If you don't race, that is a non-issue. If you do race, you'll get more braking power, and much less fatigue from braking. The bit of extra weight is worth it for me. You'll also get:

-Disc brake pads that last MUCH longer than V-brake pads
-Great modulation
-WAY more power (one finger braking)
-If you bend your rim, you can still go (and stop!) with discs

Good luck with your choice, but for me, there really isn't a choice @ this point.

For what you've described, save your money and get a set of good linear pulls and some better pads (as referenced early on).

I totally agree with what you said before. However, this guy already has avid mechanical disc brakes. To me, it just doesn't make sense to spent the extra money on V brakes because he doesn't sound too much like a weight weenie.

However, if he's willing to spend some money to save a pound or so off his bike, then definitely go to V-brakes.

Cheers

Ming

And as a side note...I ride dh and fr on mountains bigger than anything you have in the UK...I actually USE my hydros to their fullest...do you really? Honestly...or are you kidding yourself? Have you experienced brake fade from 30 min dh runs when NOT using the brakes often? Have you found long enough sections where hydro 8in brakes fail because of how long it is and you can't release the brake?

Maelstrom mate the guy was asking about XC brakes not DH or FR, and secondly i live in yorkshire where we have some of the finest terrain anywhere in the world with 'ups' and downs i.e. XC so sorry to pi$$ on your bonfire:p I stand by what i said, V brakes are crap and should killed off soon as. I only hope the mountains aint as big as your ego mate or you really are in trouble with your fading brakes. Over to you....

No ego my friend. I just disagree with your point. I stand by my point proven. Discs's aren't required.

:fight:

Geez, it's just a brake question. I have both and love then equally.

Would engineering a thin carbon road fork for a disc mount be feasible?

You mean like this?
http://www.winwoodbikeparts.com/images/FK1210_lg.jpg


What if we all switch to fixed gear and then we won't need brakes.

You have a point bbarend. But some might need new knees after many miles of fixed gear riding. I'd like to keep mine in tip top shape for turning in fresh milk. That's powder skiing to those of you who don't know the sumptuous feel of dropping a knee in three feet of freshies like I did this weekend.

Maelstrom mate the guy was asking about XC brakes not DH or FR, and secondly i live in yorkshire where we have some of the finest terrain anywhere in the world with 'ups' and downs i.e. XC so sorry to pi$$ on your bonfire:p I stand by what i said, V brakes are crap and should killed off soon as. I only hope the mountains aint as big as your ego mate or you really are in trouble with your fading brakes. Over to you....

Take 3 seconds and look at his location...

yes, thats right.

Oh but of course, the world famous Yorkshire! How can we contend with that!?:p